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Originally posted by AURaptor:
More waste of Federal $$'s, first and foremost. Added to the fact that

A) There's no ban on PRIVATE $$ that can be used for such studies

B) There's no ban of STATE $$ for the same

and

C) Adult stem cells are by far the more proven , effective, safe and reliable source for treatments and cures.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks, Doc.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


The fact that you're so dead-set against it, tells me that it's the absolute right thing to do.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.

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Hmmm. You were closer to amusing with the other one, but don't give up!!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by rue:
And the private sector has stepped up to the plate on embryonic stem cells, done tons of research and generated dozens of treatments.

Why, I'll bet you could name them all Rap !

C'mon boy, speak !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.

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Hmmm. You were closer to amusing with the other one, but don't give up!!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Please, for the love of god, SHUT UP!



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.

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Like if there was real promise in landing a man on the moon, the private sector would have done it. NASA wasting tax dollars AGAIN

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.

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Like if there was real promise in landing a man on the moon, the private sector would have done it. NASA wasting tax dollars AGAIN

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
If there was any promise of a return on investment the private sector would have gone to the moon long ago. Private companies spend much more money on medical research than the government does and profit from the results. Your comparison makes no sense.

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I'd go so far to say that most modern technology owes it's existence to government grants, which the private sector took over after the initial government funded research proved that it could pay off.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup. If the private sector saw promise in the internet, Al Gore wouldn't have had to invent it!

(That'll probably give BOTH sides fits, trying to figure out just what I meant...)

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Originally posted by citizen:

The point is that something that hasn't been researched yet having no proof of being worthwhile is a stupid argument. If that had been the prevailing thought of man over our existence, we'd still be living in the African Savannah.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
The false premise you're relying on is that embryonic stem cell studies have not taken place, when in fact the opposite is true. Enough studies have been done to show that embryonic stem cells are near worthless when compared to adult stem cells. There's the reoccurring problem of tumors w/ relation to ESCs, which isn't present w/ ASCs. So, further study needs to take place w/ ESC just to reach the starting point we've long ago found with ASC.

Again, there was no BAN on private or even public $$ ( at the state level ) for ESC research. ASCs have all the benefit and none of the problems ( genetically or morally ) as ESCs. It's a waste of Fed $$ trying to make work what we already know doesn't work.

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Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete
March 04, 2009 11:52 AM ET | Bernadine Healy, M.D. | Permanent Link | Print

Embryonic stem cells.
Scientists may be growing impatient, but President Obama has been rightly taking his time in addressing a campaign promise to lift the ban on federal funding for research using new lines of stem cells to be taken from human embryos. Even for strong backers of embryonic stem cell research, the decision is no longer as self-evident as it was, because there is markedly diminished need for expanding these cell lines for either patient therapy or basic research. In fact, during the first six weeks of Obama's term, several events reinforced the notion that embryonic stem cells, once thought to hold the cure for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and diabetes, are obsolete. The most sobering: a report from Israel published in PLoS Medicine in late February that shows embryonic stem cells injected into patients can cause disabling if not deadly tumors.

The report describes a young boy with a fatal neuromuscular disease called ataxia telangiectasia, who was treated with embryonic stem cells. Within four years, he developed headaches and was found to have multiple tumors in his brain and spinal cord that genetically matched the female embryos used in his therapy.

His experience is neither an anomaly nor a surprise, but one feared by many scientists. These still-mysterious cell creations have been removed from the highly ordered environment of a fast-growing embryo, after all. Though they are tamed in a petri dish to be disciplined, mature cells, research in animals has shown repeatedly that sometimes the injected cells run wildly out of control—dashing hopes of tiny, human embryos benignly spinning off stem cells to save grown-ups, without risk or concern.

That dream was still alive only a few weeks before this report. Within days of Obama's inauguration, the Food and Drug Administration approved its first-ever embryonic stem cell study in humans: the biotech company Geron's plan to inject highly purified human embryonic cells into eight to 10 patients with acute spinal cord injuries. (The cells are from a stem cell line approved by Bush because it predated his ban.) The FDA should now be compelled to take another look: Are eight to 10 patients enough, or one year of monitoring sufficient, to assess safety? And doctors who participate in the trial will have to ask what every doctor must ask before performing research on a human subject: Were I this patient, would I participate? Would I encourage my loved ones to do so?

Even as the future of embryonic stem cells has dimmed, adult stem cell research has scored major wins evident just in the past few months. These advances involve human stem cells that are not derived from human embryos. In fact, adult stem cells, which occur in small quantities in organs throughout the body for natural growth and repair, have become stars despite great skepticism early on. Though this is a more difficult task, scientists have learned to coax them to mature into many cell types, like brain and heart cells, in the laboratory. (Such stem cells can be removed almost as easily as drawing a unit of blood, and they have been used successfully for years in bone marrow transplants.)

To date, most of the stem cell triumphs that the public hears about involve the infusion of adult stem cells. We've just recently seen separate research reports of patients with spinal cord injury and multiple sclerosis benefiting from adult stem cell therapy. These cells have the advantage of being the patient's natural own, and the worst they seem to do after infusion is die off without bringing the hoped-for benefit. They do not have the awesome but dangerous quality of eternal life characteristic of embryonic stem cells.

A second kind of stem cell that has triumphed is an entirely new creation called iPS (short for induced pluripotent stem cell), a blockbuster discovery made in late 2007. These cells are created by reprogramming DNA from adult skin. The iPS cells are embryonic-like in that they can turn into any cell in the body—and so bypass the need for embryos or eggs. In late February, scientists reported on iPS cells that had been transformed into mature nerve cells. While these cells might become a choice for patient therapy in time, scientists are playing this down for now. Why? These embryonic-like cells also come with the risk of cancer.

James Thompson, the stem cell pioneer from the University of Wisconsin who was the first to grow human embryonic stem cells in 1998, is an independent codiscoverer of iPS cells along with Japanese scientists. Already these reprogrammed cells have eclipsed the value of those harvested from embryos, he has said, because of significantly lower cost, ease of production, and genetic identity with the patient. They also bring unique application to medical and pharmaceutical research, because cells cultivated from patients with certain diseases readily become laboratory models for developing and testing therapy. That iPS cells overcome ethical concerns about creating and sacrificing embryos is an added plus.

The importance of stem cells for medical research has never been greater, and the scientific and public clamor for unimpeded research is fully understandable. But it's important that Obama and everyone supporting a lifting of the ban be clear with the public on what is involved in this decision; it's more complex than advertised. The ban Bush became famous for restricted the use of federal research dollars just to adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells already in existence at the time of his executive order. Lifting this ban so that researchers can use frozen embryos that would otherwise be discarded—they've been donated by couples who have had in vitro fertilization treatments—has drawn wide and bipartisan support from Congress. It's an easy lift.

The more ethically charged decision—less understood by the public and one Congress has avoided—involves the ban on creating human embryos in the laboratory solely for research purposes. In fact, President Clinton is the one who balked at allowing scientists to use government money for embryo creation and research on stem cells harvested from such embryos; Bush only affirmed the Clinton ban. The scientific community has been able to attract nonfederal money for such work, and it is going on all the time in stem cell institutes. Scientists want relief from the inconvenience and expense of keeping that work and the money that supports it separate from federal dollars.

Reversing the executive orders of two prior presidents on embryo creation, which even the Congress has been unwilling to tackle, is a far bigger issue than lifting the ban on the use of IVF embryos slated for destruction. Obama stands for transparency, and it's important for him to make sure the public understands his decision, including that all stem cells are not the same or created equally.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
your information is a lie, citizen. Tumors have been found w/ embryonic stem cells.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.

Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.

Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Link from where evidence was found ? Check

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Proof that you're a liar, punk AND a coward? Check, check, check.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Proof that you're a liar, punk AND a coward? Check, check, check.

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Hmm, funny that it's been proven not to work, given that the first human embryonic stem cell trial wasn't approved until this year:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/23/stem.cell/

That they've conducted research already and it failed is another RapFact™, also known as a lie.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's funny that you'd call anyone a hypocrite, as you didn't even READ the post I gave ( link or no link ) before you dismissed it , out of hand. Called it some "opinion piece", and accused me of possibly writing it myself.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, but you're just such a complete and utter tool ( this is being civil, mind you, because it's been documented that you are a liar, a coward, an idiot and a tool )

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
And FYI, I was on the straight and level to start this thread, it was YOU who interjected the first insults. Per usual.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now your parrot act kicks in. Predictable.

I debunk your claims on embryonic stem cell research, the tumors caused ( WHEN ? ) in trials which started YEARS ago, despite your silly claim that they're just NOW getting under way.

I provide for you a link, to a story containing info from a peer reviewed web site, the Public Library of Science.

Funny, that even in England, you'd refer to the USFDA as the be all , end all to things and studies related to embryonic stem cells. MY GOD, you're such a sheep, and it's not even YOUR bureaucracy!!!

And the BEST you can come up with is ignore the details, parrot your old, disproved and outlandishly pathetic insults, because you're not MAN enough to deal w/ having your hat handed to you, even over the internet.

In the whole human history of adversarial engagements, there's never been such a one sided affair as the way I've trounced you here.

Congrats. You're less than road kill.

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you're such a freedom hating terrorist.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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you're such a freedom hating terrorist.

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Where's the retraction that no ESC research has been done because of W's ban on Federal Funding ? Where's the admission that I was right, and you were wrong, concerning the issue of tumors and ESC trials , which were started YEARS ago, and aren't now just getting underway. As you knowingly LIED about.

C'mon.... be the better man. Admit I schooled you on this one, and move on. Don't let your humiliation linger.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.

Thanks for at least proving me right on that account!

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Posted by AuRaptor:


*edit - making AuRaptor look like a complete jack ass, as well as a liar AND a moron simply isn't any fun any more. It's just too damn easy to do, and wastes too much of my valuable time.

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Where's the retraction that no ESC research has been done because of W's ban on Federal Funding ? Where's the admission that I was right, and you were wrong, concerning the issue of tumors and ESC trials , which were started YEARS ago, and aren't now just getting underway. As you knowingly LIED about.

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Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.

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Originally posted by rue:
I did some checking on embryonic stem cells and cancer or tumors done by real researchers doing real research. I found nothing, nada, and also, zip.

Why, if it was such an awful problem it should be all over the place, right Rap, the Wonder Dog ?

C'mon boy ! Paw once if yes, twice if no ! C'mon by ! You can do it !

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
But Rue & Cit, didn't you see where AuLapdog already declared himself the winner at the internet? He's claimed victory, so anything which contradicts his RapFacts™ at this point merely makes you look desperate, don'tcha know?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
More waste of Federal $$'s, first and foremost. Added to the fact that

A) There's no ban on PRIVATE $$ that can be used for such studies

B) There's no ban of STATE $$ for the same

and

C) Adult stem cells are by far the more proven , effective, safe and reliable source for treatments and cures.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now your parrot act kicks in. Predictable.

I debunk your claims on embryonic stem cell research, the tumors caused ( WHEN ? ) in trials which started YEARS ago, despite your silly claim that they're just NOW getting under way.

I provide for you a link, to a story containing info from a peer reviewed web site, the Public Library of Science.

Funny, that even in England, you'd refer to the USFDA as the be all , end all to things and studies related to embryonic stem cells. MY GOD, you're such a sheep, and it's not even YOUR bureaucracy!!!

And the BEST you can come up with is ignore the details, parrot your old, disproved and outlandishly pathetic insults, because you're not MAN enough to deal w/ having your hat handed to you, even over the internet.

In the whole human history of adversarial engagements, there's never been such a one sided affair as the way I've trounced you here.

Congrats. You're less than road kill.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Golly. AuRap, Jongstraw, and Kirkules have been mopping the floor, and cleaning the toilet with you guys, all week long and throughout the RWED territories. I have no idea how they've found the time to joust with all you twits, but it has been entertaining and heartening.
Kudos.

The point was perhaps missed, when somebody pointed out how much a failure Embryonic was versus Adult, that the FAILED route is the one the Democrats and other liberals must decree - never the successful option.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

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Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.

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Are you? I've seen you get humiliated several times, yet I've yet to see you ever issue an apology over it. It's okay, I'll wait.

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Originally posted by citizen:

You can tell 'Raps lost when his idiot sock puppet comes out to declare him the winner!

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