If Captain is harmed, would we use force? by AURaptor

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

If Captain is harmed, would we use force?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, April 9, 2009 15:08
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VIEWED: 1506
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Wednesday, April 8, 2009 4:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The USS Bainbridge is on site of the attempted pirated ship, Maersk Alabama.

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Wednesday, April 8, 2009 5:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
If Captain is harmed, would we use military force ?

Probably.

I still think this is the kind of job people like Blackwater are better suited for. They're supposed to be "private security", so hire them - privately - to provide some damn security. Cheap? No - but probably a whole lot cheaper than paying out $3 million in ransom every time one of your ships goes missing in the area.

And if the shipping companies are the ones hiring them, all the governments involved have their plausible deniability, so we don't have to worry about who's getting their knickers in a twist over some pirates who went to sea and never came home.

As for what happens to the pirates themselves? Well, when armed gunmen are coming over the sides of your ship, you're pretty much within your rights whatever you do. You go out and engage in piracy for a living, and the law is absolutely not on your side.

Do we NEED to involve the U.S. military? Not really, unless the entire reason for doing so is a "show of force" which could be affected cheaper and more effectively by having several pirate crews simply "disappear" at sea. Criminals go for the easy take, and if you go out with a 50/50 chance of ever coming home, you're probably looking for a new line of work pretty damn quick.

Besides, it's pretty widely accepted that the military is going to capture them, feed them well, give them better quarters than they have at home, and the put them on trial - probably in international court - and they'll end up spending a little bit of time in a prison that, compared to their home, looks like a four-star resort, complete with up-to-date healthcare. How's that supposed to be punishment?

And I say it's widely accepted that the military will handle them with kid gloves because our recent past has pretty much demanded that our military start behaving in what the rest of the world sees as a civilized manner - something with mercenaries aren't quite as apt to do.

Maybe it's time to put lookouts back up in the crow's nest, and outfit a few "Q ships".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

Make the risks far greater than the rewards, and this shit stops right damn quick.

Mike

Just lying smiling in the dark,
Shooting stars around your heart,
Dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple every time.
Now you're crying in your sleep;
I wish you'd never learnt to weep.
Don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple every time.
"Pure", by Lightning Seeds

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Wednesday, April 8, 2009 8:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have been advocating military action against these pirates since they first appeared. I hope swift, decisive, and violent action is now taken, lest more pirates be emboldened to take up the trade.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, April 8, 2009 8:52 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

I support the idea of international forces securing the waters off east Africa, but not private mercenary's.

While these naval forces are keeping shipping safe from piracy, they need to also have a mandate to stop the dumping of toxic and nuclear waste and illegal foreign fishing in the same waters

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418665.ece

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVV_gQDsp1m8v7nPcumVc5McYV-Q

http://illegal-fishing.info/item_single.php?item=news&item_id=145&appr
oach_id=13

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 5:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If we do use mercenaries, we should issue them a privateering license, if only to maintain the historical irony.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 6:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If we do use mercenaries, we should issue them a privateering license, if only to maintain the historical irony.

The U.S. is not a signatory to the 1856 Treaty of Paris, and has never officially renounced the right of Congress to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal, as enumerated in Section 8 of the Constitution.

Although the U.S. stated it would abide by the Treaty of Paris during hostilities in the Civil War and Spanish-American War, it still has the legal ability to issue Letters.

In the first months of WWII the Goodyear blimp Resolute was issued a Letter of Marque and patrolled out of Los Angeles, with a rifle-armed civilian crew, for Japanese subs.

Seems like a good precedent.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 6:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Already addressed that here.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37694

I would have no issue with offering letters of marque to folks willing to assume the risks of handling the situation and it's quite possible that various shippers and insurers would also be willing to subsidise that enterprise.

Given the bad guys are likely communicating by radio, I'd not be opposed to triangulating the source, and sending in Delta, if you can pry them off fucking with the folks they're supposed to be protecting long enough to actually do their goddamn job for once - and yes, you CAN launch an Osprey from something other than a carrier.

One advantage to privateers is that once they've redflagged and the bad guys don't heave to - there's no obligation whatsoever to take them alive.

That's what them flags are for - you run the red up, fire a warning shot, they don't play ball, then you run the roger up and feed the sharks.

They're not just lowlife crooks, they're lowlife crooks that are bad for business - which is why piracy has always gotten short-shrift from established nations.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:13 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Violence begets violence. All we need to do is apologize to Somalia, announce once again to the world that America is arrogant (Obama) and Americans are cowards (Holder). Once we do that all will be fine. Remember there was no evil in the world until Bush created it. Islam is the religion of peace.

Oh, and that N. Korean nuclear missile flying over your head? Don't worry. Barack and Hillary are going to charm the socks off of them, and issue enough apologies and mea culpas that the current problem will go away. McDonalds, Nike, and Harley Davidson, etc. are just waiting in the wings to make Kim Jong Il their new spokesperson once N. Korea falls in love with America again. That's how you defeat a dangerous ruthless dictator. Make him fat and rich, and if he still is not convinced to cease his wicked ways, you get him a guest appearance on American Idol.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:17 AM

FIVVER

During both world wars, the British and Americans used Q-ships for U-boat patrols. They were merchant ships armed with hidden deck guns. German sub commanders, seeing a lone ship preferred to surface and sink it with cannon fire instead of wasting a torpedo. When that happened, the covers would come off the guns and the sub would get a nasty suprise. Certainly we could adapt those cargo containers, that you see piled all over the ship's deck, to contain some serious armament...

Edited to add:

Trivia Jong. The 'shores of Tripoli' in the Marine Hymn refer to the wars against the Barbary Pirates in the early 1800's. Jefferson tried to negotiate peace but was told:

Quote:
In 1786, Thomas Jefferson, then the ambassador to France, and John Adams, ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, a visiting ambassador from Tripoli. The Americans asked Adja why his government was hostile to American ships, even though there had been no provocation. They reported to the Continental Congress that the ambassador had told them “it was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave,” but he also told them that for what they considered outrageous sums of money they could make peace.[22]

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
During both world wars, the British and Americans used Q-ships for U-boat patrols. They were merchant ships armed with hidden deck guns. German sub commanders, seeing a lone ship preferred to surface and sink it with cannon fire instead of wasting a torpedo. When that happened, the covers would come off the guns and the sub would get a nasty suprise. Certainly we could adapt those cargo containers, that you see piled all over the ship's deck, to contain some serious armament...

Edited to add:

Trivia Jong. The 'shores of Tripoli' in the Marine Hymn refer to the wars against the Barbary Pirates in the early 1800's. Jefferson tried to negotiate peace but was told:
Quote:
In 1786, Thomas Jefferson, then the ambassador to France, and John Adams, ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, a visiting ambassador from Tripoli. The Americans asked Adja why his government was hostile to American ships, even though there had been no provocation. They reported to the Continental Congress that the ambassador had told them “it was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave,” but he also told them that for what they considered outrageous sums of money they could make peace.[22]

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Hey Fivver, Are you putting Thomas Jefferson in the same league as Obama? C'mon, Obama is the man. Jefferson was just a long-haired pipe-smoking slave owning rebel troublemaker. More like Rev. Wright than Obama. Don't underestimate Obama. There's nothing he can't do. There's a reason that he rose to power at this time in human history.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:44 AM

FIVVER

Quote:
There's a reason that he rose to power at this time in human history.

Yeah, 52% of the American voters are whining children, afraid of freedom, that want Big Mother (much more to feared than Big Brother) to fix all their booboos.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 8:04 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

Oh, and that N. Korean nuclear missile flying over your head? Don't worry. Barack and Hillary are going to charm the socks off of them, and issue enough apologies and mea culpas that the current problem will go away. McDonalds, Nike, and Harley Davidson, etc. are just waiting in the wings to make Kim Jong Il their new spokesperson once N. Korea falls in love with America again. That's how you defeat a dangerous ruthless dictator. Make him fat and rich, and if he still is not convinced to cease his wicked ways, you get him a guest appearance on American Idol.

North Korea launched nuclear missiles? Really? Do you have any cites to back up that assertion? I know they attempted to launch a missile, but as far as I know it wasn't carrying a nuclear warhead. By the way, who was the U.S. President when North Korea allegedly set off their first nuclear weapon?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 8:04 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
Quote:
There's a reason that he rose to power at this time in human history.

Yeah, 52% of the American voters are whining children, afraid of freedom, that want Big Mother (much more to feared than Big Brother) to fix all their booboos.

No no no....you're mis-interpreting what the recent election represented friend Fivver. It was all about the long-suppressed goals of the Democrats (ie. normal people) finally being unleashed under the Obama umbrella of hope and change. This is a good thing. The evil torturing Republicans are not worthy to be in the government any longer. In fact, their point of view on issues is no longer even debatable. We have a perfect harmony of Obama's gentle Chicago Democrat politics coupled with Pelosi's thoughtful San Francisco social positions. The goal is to make everyone equal. Rich - vs- poor has always been just downright unfair and we all know it. The Moon is in Aquarius and Jupiter is aligned with Mars. When we're all poor, there will finally be a perfect society in America.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 9:40 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
When we're all poor, there will finally be a perfect society in America.

Well, Kim Jong Straw-man, let it never be said that Dubya didn't do his part to bring about that perfect society, then. After all, he did his damnedest to make us all very poor.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:00 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
When we're all poor, there will finally be a perfect society in America.

Well, Kim Jong Straw-man, let it never be said that Dubya didn't do his part to bring about that perfect society, then. After all, he did his damnedest to make us all very poor.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Good. Gooood. I can feeeeeeel your hate. The dark side swells within you. Isn't your Bush-hate parasite filled up yet? Don't answer that. The answer is your hate for Bush has no bottom & no expiration date. Yesterday you called me an asshole. Fine, so why do you want to engage me now? You think I give a flyin fuck what you think? Are you that pathetic that you have nothing else to do than to waste time with assholes? You may have noticed that I DO have better things to do than engage with schmucks like you, but today I made an exception. Just because you're so damn special, I'm granting you the honor of my personal disgust for you. Wallow baby!

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:19 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If we do use mercenaries, we should issue them a privateering license, if only to maintain the historical irony.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Then I would start to shoot " illegal combatants " out of hand.

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 11:36 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
When we're all poor, there will finally be a perfect society in America.

Well, Kim Jong Straw-man, let it never be said that Dubya didn't do his part to bring about that perfect society, then. After all, he did his damnedest to make us all very poor.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Good. Gooood. I can feeeeeeel your hate. The dark side swells within you. Isn't your Bush-hate parasite filled up yet? Don't answer that. The answer is your hate for Bush has no bottom & no expiration date.

Very much like your Obama-hate, yes?

Quote:
Yesterday you called me an asshole.

Cites, please? I believe I said the rest of the world thinks you're an asshole. If memory serves, I never said what *I* think of you. Devil's in the details, baby.

Quote:
Fine, so why do you want to engage me now? You think I give a flyin fuck what you think?

A) Who said I was "engaging" you? I saw a great line that was ripe for a snarky response, and I took the shot.

B) Apparently you DO give quite a flyin' fuck what I think, as you are spending so much of your precious time responding to me, dear-heart.

Quote:
Are you that pathetic that you have nothing else to do than to waste time with assholes?

I might ask you the same...

Quote:
You may have noticed that I DO have better things to do than engage with schmucks like you, but today I made an exception.

Actually, I've noticed that you seem to have less of an actual life than just about anyone here.

Quote:
Just because you're so damn special, I'm granting you the honor of my personal disgust for you. Wallow baby!

Ah, yes... you seem to be happy wallowing in your hate for liberals, happy as a pig in shit. A pig with lipstick, no doubt. Pucker up, buttercup!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 11:39 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Good. Gooood. I can feeeeeeel your hate. The dark side swells within you.

I....will...join the Bush Side....my Master....

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 11:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Already addressed that here.

But you didn't mention the blimp. Imagine the balls of the guys who went out, armed with nothing but a radio and (probably) someone's 30.06 hunting rifle, to hunt Japanese submarines. If it wasn't so heroic, I'd have expected to see it in the movie "1941".

Wanna go up against the Imperial Japanese Navy in this?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 12:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yeah, I noted that event, though thankfully they could operate at at altitude which would make hitting them with a deck gun all but impossible - still, flying that fragile little thing out into a more or less active warzone took some yarbles.

I flew a GT-400UL through a thunderstorm once, thanks to a bogus weather forecast, and that was scary enough for me!

Definately a job for Mad Jack Churchill.

-F

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 2:38 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Good. Gooood. I can feeeeeeel your hate. The dark side swells within you.
I....will...join the Bush Side....my Master....

The laughing Chrisisall

Hey Chrissy, what are you now, the toilet paper that comes in to wipe the shit that the most hateful & vile poster here leaves? You playin' second twit to the insane Kwiiko? Your true color is brown indeed!

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Thursday, April 9, 2009 3:08 PM

KWICKO

Most hateful and vile? Is there a prize that goes with that?

"You like me... you really like me!"

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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