Sorry, why is whether Obama bowed to the Saudi King an issue again? by AURaptor

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

What is the providence of the kissy-face photo?

That would be by way of Adobe Photoshop.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 4:03 AM

America loves a winner!

Head nod does not = a full fledged bow to at the waist. Nice try.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 5:22 AM

For those of you who see Obama purposefully bowing to the Saudi king, why did he do it? Do you think he is beholden to the Saudi king for some reason? Do you think Barack Obama idolizes the Saudi king for some reason? Or is it simply that he was an idiot, and if this last, has Obama behaved like such an idiot on any other foreign visits? I don't see that he has.

If it was a bow, it was a really weird-ass bow. I've certainly never seen a bow like that, except maybe on Faulty Towers or at a grade school level piano recital. A secret Muslim bow, perhaps, only not so secret?

If I hadda guess, it looks as if he nearly fell over or lost his balance at least, like as if the rug slipped as he stepped on it, something, and the "bow" was his way of recovering. Y'know, trying to look cool/I meant to do that, sorta thing.

But really, if he did bow, what does it mean to y'all?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 5:33 AM

America loves a winner!

Why ? I got no idea why, but he most definitely did bow.

I point again to the Brokaw, Charlie Rose video, saying they really don't know who this Obama character is....

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Monday, April 13, 2009 6:15 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I point again to the Brokaw, Charlie Rose video, saying they really don't know who this Obama character is....

I'm not sure, but I *think* he's the President of the United States. At least that's what I've heard... Not really sure why Brokaw can't figure out who he is. No wonder he retired from reading the news; he can't keep up any more!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 6:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I personally believe that any insinuation that this bow has any special significance beyond a bow... is unsupported fantasy.

At first the criticism of the bow appeared to be aimed at the White House public relations division, which declared it NOT a bow. Well, it's a fucking bow. For whatever reason, there it is.

But to then take the logic leap that the bow means anything greater than, "Respectful hello to you, sir," is without merit.

This unmerited logic leap has been insinuated by comments like, "We don't really know who this guy is," which further insinuates that he may be something horrible, somehow bow-related.

Now, Auraptor and other commentators are free to declare that they didn't mean to insinuate anything at all. That this is merely a criticism of White House misinformation and spin. But I have the distinct impression that there is an implication in the criticism that goes beyond, "He bowed, what a gaffe."

For mine own part, this is a non-issue. The only issue I have with the bow is the issue being made of the bow.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, April 13, 2009 7:08 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I point again to the Brokaw, Charlie Rose video, saying they really don't know who this Obama character is....

Your favorite go-to clip when you've got no point, and just want to troll.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, April 13, 2009 7:13 AM

Quote:

But to then take the logic leap that the bow means anything greater than, "Respectful hello to you, sir," is without merit.

This unmerited logic leap has been insinuated by comments like, "We don't really know who this guy is," which further insinuates that he may be something horrible, somehow bow-related.

The "secret bow" conspiracy seems to hinge on the idea that Obama really IS a "secret Muslim" ("See?! I TOLD YOU SO!!!"), or that he's bowing his fealty to the Saudi King, showing the world - secretly, of course, because you really mustn't say these things out loud - that America is subservient to Saudi Arabia and OPEC, just as it always has been.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 7:31 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The "secret bow" conspiracy seems to hinge on the idea that Obama really IS a "secret Muslim" ("See?! I TOLD YOU SO!!!"), or that he's bowing his fealty to the Saudi King, showing the world - secretly, of course, because you really mustn't say these things out loud - that America is subservient to Saudi Arabia and OPEC, just as it always has been.

If it's subservient due to Oil, then that's different. Oil is the good religion, Islam is the bad one. Look I'll let George Bush Snr explain it:

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Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 AM

America loves a winner!

Story

How is that remotely a troll post ?? The point is crystal clear. WATCH the gorram video! You're being childish and immature on purpose, for no other reason but to be obtuse and dismissive. You gave no basis to ignore the Rose / Brokaw video, other than I'm the the one posting it. Give credible reasons why you disagree, or grow the hell up.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 10:37 AM

Quote:
You gave no basis to ignore the Rose / Brokaw video, other than I'm the the one posting it. Give credible reasons why you disagree, or grow the hell up.

C'mon, Rappy, tell me you've never dismissed a source I've posted, just because it was *ME* posting it.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Story

How is that remotely a troll post ?? The point is crystal clear. WATCH the gorram video! You're being childish and immature on purpose, for no other reason but to be obtuse and dismissive. You gave no basis to ignore the Rose / Brokaw video, other than I'm the the one posting it. Give credible reasons why you disagree, or grow the hell up.

Um, Obama's positions on the various issues Rose/Brokaw bring up were available from Obama's website throughout the campaign. Though it's possible that R/B are completely out to lunch on this, I rather got the impression that their conversation was about the MSM coverage of Obama during the campaign--in that context "we" know next to nothing about him, the MSM focusing on anything and everything except policy. But elements within the conservative movement thought it would further their cause to present these snippets of the Rose/Brokaw interview to foment suspision about Obama's "real identity."

It's really

sad, and AURaptor, you should stop it.

Knowledge of Obama's positions has been available to anyone who is genuinely interested for years now.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why ? I got no idea why, but he most definitely did bow.

Oh, I missed this one. So you have no answer as to "why" he bowed, but the more interesting question, the one you CAN answer is, "What does it mean to you if he did bow?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 12:35 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why ? I got no idea why, but he most definitely did bow.

Oh, I missed this one. So you have no answer as to "why" he bowed, but the more interesting question, the one you CAN answer is, "What does it mean to you if he did bow?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

He should not have bowed. Every Sand-Dancer on earth wacks off to the video of Obama doing so. Even before they beat their wives or rub their daughter's faces in the humps of camals.......Well, it's true..........

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Monday, April 13, 2009 12:58 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Story

How is that remotely a troll post ?? The point is crystal clear. WATCH the gorram video! You're being childish and immature on purpose, for no other reason but to be obtuse and dismissive. You gave no basis to ignore the Rose / Brokaw video, other than I'm the the one posting it. Give credible reasons why you disagree, or grow the hell up.

I have seen it. Back when you first latched onto it as your banner. My opinion remains unchanged, that it's meaningless. And in the context of this discussion - all it ammounts to is you Obama trolling.

And you telling others to grow up is cute.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, April 13, 2009 3:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT:
Hello,
What is the providence of the kissy-face photo?
pizmobeach:
That would be by way of Adobe Photoshop.

Ehhh ... pizomo, you missed the boat on that one (as a minute doing a google search would have revealed). The source is CNN.

http://imagesource.cnn.com/imagesource/player.swf?streamer=rtmp://isfm
s.cnn.com/vod&file=mp4:895/05281895&type=video&controlbar=none&autostart=true&width=480&height=324

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, April 13, 2009 9:33 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

The photo is clearly photoshopped. Clearly. I mean, it's not even elegantly done. There's a sharp line cutting off part of Dubya's suit, and the mustache has been clumsily altered with the smear tool and looks like it's coming more from Dubya's nose than the king's face. I could have done a better edit in my sleep.
The video, now, does clearly show some cheek-kissing, which I assume to be some formality that's acceptable, along with hand-holding, where a stumble-bow is not. Trained I may be in the ninja art of photoshoppery, but these nuances of protocol aren't something I've studied.

[/sig]

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Monday, April 13, 2009 11:27 PM

America loves a winner!

HK, I guess you're just as blind as the rest of them. These guys come right out and SAY they don't know, and you expect me to buy some crap on Obama's web site ? That stuff is nothing but P.R. What they were TALKING about is a history of how this guy , Obama, thinks, any sort of body of work that ANY one can look at and conclude where he gets his foreign policy concepts.

My god, just take what these guys are saying and listen for yourself. THEY'RE the ones who say it. Hell, don't blame me if you can't take the truth.

Quote:
"What does it mean to you if he did bow?

It looks ridiculous , for one. How he did it and the fact that he did it. He looks like a child , to be quite honest. I'd say it's a gaffe, but then we're reminded that Obama went to Harvard, and is simply too smart to gaffe THIS badly. He HAD to know what he was doing. It clearly means he meant to show subservience to the King, not just respect. Even Muslim reporters saw this for what it was, a bow, and THEY even admit confusion. No Muslim bows to any save for Allah, so they just must be tickled at the whole affair.

Very strange. But then, what do we REALLY know about this guy?

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Monday, April 13, 2009 11:35 PM

America loves a winner!

Story, your insistence of ignoring the facts doesn't make me a troll, in the least. So sorry. You remain "unconvinced" simply because it was me who posted it, but the facts are there, undeniable. Seriously, grow up and get a spine. Dismissing hard cold fact as anyone 'trolling' is the most pathetic display of insecurity and intellectual dishonesty I've seen by the Left in a long time. And that's saying A LOT!

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:41 AM

RIPWASH

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

This is what caught my eye - he was leaning somewhere between the two men. In fact, the king had to turn to his right (an action completed in this picture - originally the king was facing at right angles to Obama's 'greeting'.). It looks awkward to me - not like it was directed at the king at all.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

The whole thing looks a little strange, no matter what direction you're looking at it. In this photo, yes, it looks like he's bowing . . . somewhere. It's hard to figure out. But he's certainly not looking anyone in the eye. I don't think it would have been such a big deal if he simply bent over to see the man eye to eye, but this does look like a subservient bow because he goes pretty low and he's got his head down, eyes to the floor. I'll have to look at the video again to make a better decision. I could go along with Hannity and the like, but it's just a little too odd. If he did goof and stumble, the White House should admit it. If he did BOW even by accident or not thinking it through clearly enough, admit it as a gaffe and move on. One thing that is being said by Hannity is that if the bow is not such a big deal as some on the left are claiming, then why would the White House be denying it so adamantly? They could have said, "Yes, he was bowing to show his respect and blah, blah, blah." That makes a bit of sense, but still . . .

I'm not sure what happened here.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

My god, just take what these guys are saying and listen for yourself. THEY'RE the ones who say it. Hell, don't blame me if you can't take the truth.

In other words, take these guys' word for it, and don't dare question conclusions that Rappy the WonderDog agrees with!

Quote:
I'd say it's a gaffe, but then we're reminded that Obama went to Harvard, and is simply too smart to gaffe THIS badly. He HAD to know what he was doing. It clearly means he meant to show subservience to the King, not just respect.

Very strange. But then, what do we REALLY know about this guy?

Yes, since Obama is a Smart Person™, it's categorically impossible for him to ever do anything wrong. Oh, wait... Didn't Dubya go to Harvard as well?

There goes THAT theory...

As for what we REALLY know about this guy - well, obviously Rappy knows EVERYTHING about him. He knows everything Obama knows, exactly what his every intention is with every move he makes; he even knows how Obama FEELS!

How else can you explain claims that "he HAD to know...", "It CLEARLY means..."

Of course, it could also mean that this proves that Obama's a Muslim. Better get right on that - Fetch, Rappy, FETCH!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:20 AM

America loves a winner!

mike,
Why can't you just take what the old guard, Lib biased media says?
Why attack me? I just post the facts, I didn't make them up.

If you have an issue with Tom or Charlie, don't fire at me because it upsets you. Take a moment and think about what they are saying.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:25 AM

CITIZEN

Because the far right biased American media often lies. Just like many of those that call it liberally biased, in order to further those lies and give them credence.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 3:13 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
AnthonyT:
Hello,
What is the providence of the kissy-face photo?
pizmobeach:
That would be by way of Adobe Photoshop.

Ehhh ... pizomo, you missed the boat on that one (as a minute doing a google search would have revealed). The source is CNN.

http://imagesource.cnn.com/imagesource/player.swf?streamer=rtmp://isfm
s.cnn.com/vod&file=mp4:895/05281895&type=video&controlbar=none&autostart=true&width=480&height=324

***************************************************************

Rue, yes check that video - it takes place indoors, while the image you posted is outside - so something is askew. Also, clearly the cnn footage shows them kissing on (face) cheeks, while the modified, 'shopped image has them doing a lip hummer. Physically speaking, in that still there's no place the Saudi's schnoz can go - hence, unreal. My boat is yet unmissed.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 3:50 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I agree that the photo's providence is deeply uncertain, and that its depiction is very different from the CNN video provided.

On the issue of the Brokaw (sp?) quote, I have to say that Auraptor is taking the quote to mean what he wishes it to mean. They said, essentially, "we know very little about this man." And he is taking it to mean, "we know very little about this man, and hence anything could be true about him, like that he is a secret muslim and worships saudi kings."

Which is quite a leap from the one to the other. An unmerited leap, in my opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:07 AM

Rap,

If you think I'm "taking a shot at you" for this, it's only because in one breath you claim that nobody knows anything about Obama, and in the very next breath you claim that "clearly" he "HAD to" be bowing in subservience.

You've seen the same video and pictures others have, and you're 100% certain of what YOU saw. Others are less so.

Now, either we know the man and his motives, or we don't.

What you're trying to do is take what you DON'T know about Obama, mix that in with something you've seen which you don't like, and make the veiled implication that there's very much more that WE don't know, but which YOU can devine because of your superior powers of observation. Or your already well-known biases against the man. Whichever is more applicable.

If we don't know the man, then we can have no idea what his motives and machinations really are. To say not only WHAT he's doing, but WHY, indicates that you somehow know far more about the man than anyone else - even the so-called "experts" who read the news from a teleprompter!

It's not an attack on YOU; it's an attack on your methodology. There's a difference.

Of course, for "attacking" you, I'm sure you'll show us all what a great debater you are by calling me a "fucking dumb ass" or an idiot, as you generally do when an argument isn't going your way.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:13 AM

And by the way, Rappy:

Quote:

Why can't you just take what the old guard, Lib biased media says?

Seriously? Really? You're going to sit there and ask me that question in what's supposedly a serious discussion?

I'll make a deal with you: I'll take the "liberal media" at face value and believe everything they say when you do the same.

Deal?

I thought you were supposed to be a "true skeptic"; I thought you questioned everything, especially if it came from the liberal media.

I guess that only applies when they say things critical of conservatives...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
...the photo's providence

Hey Anthony, when you say "providence" don't you mean provenance? I don't mean to get all grammar police on ya, just a big fan of the word provenance.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:10 AM

America loves a winner!

It's Browkaw and Rose TELLIING us what THEY think! It's not an issue of whether we agree or not, it's their own views! What the hell does face value have to do with anything here????? Nothing! That's what!

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:15 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Of course, for "attacking" you, I'm sure you'll show us all what a great debater you are by calling me a "fucking dumb ass" or an idiot, as you generally do when an argument isn't going your way.

Yeah, but he does that every single time, oh no wait I get it, nevermind...

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:21 AM

America loves a winner!

When the W H says there was no bow, when the rest of the world all saw him bow, that leaves us to wonder at his motives. Since a bow is seen by most modern cultures as a subservient gesture, and no other explanation is given, how else to explain it? Very odd , it is, if nothing else.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:28 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Since a bow is seen by most modern cultures as a subservient gesture ..."

Except when dubya does it ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Pizmo

What I posted was the one FREE original source on the internet. If you are willing to pay for material from various archives, there is more.

Despite how you want to confuse the issue - it DOES show Bush kissing Crown Prince (now king) Abdullah. Does it not ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:51 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Pizmo

What I posted was the one FREE source on the internet. If you are willing to pay for material from various archives, there is more.

Eh, pass. It's fake, it's unreal, it is in fact a dead parrot - just trust me (and PhoenixRose) on this. I trust you on the politics and chemistry, trust me on this.

How about this for an explanation:

The G20 summit was 'Bama's first one. It's one thing to wow folk with speeches, and another to hang with 19 other world leaders. He was under immense pressure. He must have been nervous. He was also very tired (did you see his schedule??) and he got his protocols mixed up. In short, he made a flub.

Since the rep party is on life support they will try and make something out of any thing they can. Which is perfect since it will be their own undoing - it will only attract equally desperate and dim characters to their party.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:03 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So Bush has NEVER kissed Crown Prince Abdullah ?

Yes or No.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:07 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
...the photo's providence

Hey Anthony, when you say "providence" don't you mean provenance? I don't mean to get all grammar police on ya, just a big fan of the word provenance.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Hello,

You are quite right, Mr. Cavalier. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:11 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So Bush has NEVER kissed Crown Prince Abdullah ?

Yes or No.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Rue,

The question is more aptly phrased, "So Bush has NEVER kissed Crown Prince Abdullah on the lips as depicted in the photo?"

And the answer is probably no.

It's okay to be wrong about something. I'm often wrong. You're still a great gal with amazing insight and often well-researched arguments.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:12 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

We're not trying to confuse the issue, Rue. I already said the video clearly shows cheek kissing. The tonsil-hockey picture, though, is a clumsy photoshop. I plan to make my living with that program, I know it when I see it. So while the video is a legitimate source, the photo is not. And that is what will confuse the issue, because those who can tell will question the legitimacy of all reports of any kind of kissing if there are images used that are not legit. Why do you think I can never take piratenews seriously? He's posted so many heavily altered images that there's just no credibility there. It's like the now-defunct Weekly World News, it's just laughable. You don't want to end up in that kind of category.
I'm trying to help you out, here. Don't get tetchy.

[/sig]

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:15 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Auraptor,

"Since a bow is seen by most modern cultures as a subservient gesture..."

This premise is incorrect. A bow is as often a sign of respect as it is a subservient gesture. Peers bow to each other in many modern cultures. That is, equals bow to one another in a show of mutual respect.

Do you believe that Obama was demonstrating his subservience to a foreign head of state?

If you believe that, I can see you becoming alarmed.

However, I do not agree with this interpretation. I am much more inclined to believe he was making a gesture of respect. It is possible that this gesture was a breach of protocol, but I see no insidiousness in it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:27 AM

RIPWASH

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So Bush has NEVER kissed Crown Prince Abdullah ?

Yes or No.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

As Kwicko once said, Google is our friend. I tried finding any reference to your picture.

What I did find was the actual picture from which the one you posted is an obvious chop job. Why can't you admit that? Kissed him on the cheeks, yes. That's obvious from the video and is an acceptable greeting in most foreign countries.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/klipsch_fan/1411506021/

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Since people are making such a big deal about a 'bow' (which I saw as a loss of balance as Obama was leaning forward), it would seem they should be equally appalled about a kiss - ANY kiss - but especially an obviously intentional one that can't be written off as a stumble -- between the PRESIDENT and a foreign leader. Whether you accept one photograph or another of Bush kissing Prince Abdullah, either way - he kissed the guy.

In fact, they should be equally appalled at Bush's other bizarre behavior as PRESIDENT. Bush groping Merkel comes to mind. Or, if bowing is such a deep issue, they should be appalled by ANY bow Bush made, such as the one he made to the Pope.

The issue isn't the picture, it's the kisses (there were more than one), the bows, the gope.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So Bush has NEVER kissed Crown Prince Abdullah ?

Yes or No.

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Silence is consent.

Rue,

The question is more aptly phrased, "So Bush has NEVER kissed Crown Prince Abdullah on the lips as depicted in the photo?"

And the answer is probably no.

It's okay to be wrong about something. I'm often wrong. You're still a great gal with amazing insight and often well-researched arguments.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I think Anthony's got it right on this one. I, too, thought the Bush picture was real. Now I'm definitely leaning towards it being a fake.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:38 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Rue,

I understand your position, but if the picture is not the issue, then the issue should not include the picture. The picture you used to make your point (a forgery) undermines the point you were trying to make.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Auraptor,

"Since a bow is seen by most modern cultures as a subservient gesture..."

This premise is incorrect. A bow is as often a sign of respect as it is a subservient gesture. Peers bow to each other in many modern cultures. That is, equals bow to one another in a show of mutual respect.

Do you believe that Obama was demonstrating his subservience to a foreign head of state?

If you believe that, I can see you becoming alarmed.

However, I do not agree with this interpretation. I am much more inclined to believe he was making a gesture of respect. It is possible that this gesture was a breach of protocol, but I see no insidiousness in it.

--Anthony

Again, I think Anthony's on the right track.

I don't really care whether or not Obama "bowed" - or what it might signify if he did (respect? subservience? fear? hatred? worshipfulness? A mistaken belief that Abdullah was Korean, or Japanese?)

What I find disturbing is that AuRaptor, while maintaining that there is absolutely NOTHING we know about Obama, then also maintains that HE KNOWS what Obama's intentions and motivations are. "CLEARLY" this and "HAD TO" that. It smacks of a PirateNews post, with everything except the allegations that Obama is meeting Abdullah at Bohemian Grove later this week to dance naked around the chained male sex slaves.

In other words, Rappo has become what Hero would refer to as a "crazy talker".

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

To put it another way, if Auraptor was to post a forged picture of Obama on his hands and knees, pressing his lips to the Saudi King's shoe, it would undermine his point as well.

Even if he then claimed, "The point is that he bowed. Did he bow, yes or no?" I'd have problems with it. I'd tell him, as I tell you, "No, not like he did in the picture."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:54 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Bush had been described by reputable news sources as having kissed Crown Prince Abdullah and then going for a walk hand in hand:

"Plenty of eyebrows were raised by the body language Monday between President Bush and the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah. When the crown prince arrived, half an hour late, Mr. Bush greeted him with what the Associated Press described as "a warm embrace and a kiss on both cheeks." Then the pair were photographed holding hands while walking through a field of bluebonnets."

So the objection that the only kiss that happened was indoors is without a doubt invalid.

Further, there are other orginal news source pictures showing Bush kissing other ME leaders in the exact same fashion as depicted in the photograph

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/11/world/main3699072.shtml?sour
ce=RSSattr=HOME_3699072

In addition, there are several photographs showing them very close (face to face) -

AND FINALLY - IT'S ABOUT THE KISSES, not the photo.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:59 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"To put it another way, if Auraptor was to post a forged picture of Obama on his hands and knees, pressing his lips to the Saudi King's shoe, it would undermine his point as well."

But if he were to find NEWS reports ABOUT Obama doing that, if he were to find other pictures of Obama doing the exact same thing - wouldn't you find it convincing for him to say - Obama does that ?

I would.

Any other conclusion is petty bias.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:02 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Rue,

It was about the kisses. But then you clung to a photoshop forgery and posted in its defense.

Now it's all about the forged photo.

Try presenting five pieces of evidence at a homicide trial.

Then have the defense reveal that one of the pieces of evidence was planted by the police.

The trial is now no longer about a homicide. It's now about police corruption. The murderer goes free.

This isn't theory. This is history.

Own it, before it owns you.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:08 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"To put it another way, if Auraptor was to post a forged picture of Obama on his hands and knees, pressing his lips to the Saudi King's shoe, it would undermine his point as well."

But if he were to find NEWS reports ABOUT Obama doing that, if he were to find other pictures of Obama doing the exact same thing - wouldn't you find it convincing for him to say - Obama does that ?

I would.

Any other conclusion is petty bias.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Hello,

I have not found any evidence to support that Bush lip-locked the Saudi Prince. So no, there is no supporting anything for that forged photo.

Someone took a photo of one thing that did happen - Bush kissed prince on cheeks - and turned it into something that didn't happen - Bush osculated the Prince on lips.

They did this to evoke a sense of disgust in puritan minded Americans. We don't do that, and we certainly don't want our presidents doing that.

But kiss on the cheeks? Hell, my parents were Cuban. Kisses on cheeks are like handshakes in my culture. Try kissing a dude on the mouth, though, and you'll get a collective gasp of disbelief and disgust.

Just as you might if Obama bent over and tongued the King's dockers.

Neither of these things happened. There are no news reports supporting the picture provided. The picture is a forgery, and this would have blown over pages ago in the wake of a, "Ooops. Looks like that picture is a fake. Sorry guys, Bush only ever kissed the guy on the cheeks."

Then you could go on to say, "Not that location is the issue, of course. The issue is these gestures of respect made by former presidents to honor foreign cultures. They invoked no horror then, why now?"

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:10 AM