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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


Hey dickhead, I said ANY proof.

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OOoooo, I detect a little "caring" in there....


The laughing Chrisisall

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There was nothing remotely 'fact free' about my statement.

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What's to like ? There's a REASON why he's carrying on , just like Bush, on this matter. While Mr Obamarrific has no problems making SWEEPING changes in most other areas of Government, he's sorta changed his tune on such matters on how to treat terrorist. Sure, we might not call them that any more, but we'll sure TREAT them the same. ... I'd say why doesn't that give YOU pause to think on for a while ? So many across the board changes, in all areas, yet THIS one remains the same?

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We gathered 10 yrs of WMD facts, along w/broken promises, failed agreements, and a host of mass graves and REAL torture rooms run by Saddam. Iraq , for so many reasons, was a noble cause.

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No one, save for Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Rahm Emanuel was 'cheering ' the economy over a cliff.

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Yes, I'm absolutely stating that, until you offer any proof, or any Dept. fo Homeland Security type memos which targeted LEFT wing 'radicals' as the Right was , then you have nothing but your irrational fear paranoia and hatred for Bush on your side.

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talk about others being 'fact free' ??

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Originally posted by AURaptor:



But still no proof. As usual.

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Originally posted by asarian:
Waterboarding, while reprehensible, was considered legal under, and sanctioned by, Bush and his administration. So, to go after these folks who did the actual boarding inevitably means also prosecuting way up the chain (as their attorneys will no doubt say their actions were approved by the brass). And I rightfully think that's not feasible; not politically, at least. So, the gnashing of my teeth despite, seems you Republicans got a few freebies. Enjoy them: the world is entirely more vigilent to your shenanigans, come next round.

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Originally posted by Hero:
make it illegal, immoral, unethical, etc...but still allow the folks to do what they gotta do to get what we need...a solution that has the added benefit of being entirely keeping with the express powers of the Constitution.

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You said folks were CHEERING this economy over a cliff.

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Bush never said 'imminent threat'

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Barney Frank and Chris Dodd DID have power, and you need to take a refresher course in Civics, 101.

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The D.H.S.'s memo that's been all over the news this week, hon. Google it, if you're really that dense

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Originally posted by rue:
Oh, yeah. And Rap ? You're delusional.

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Silence is consent.

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Never happened. I never cheered for the forcing of banks to give loans to folks who couldn't pay for them. Not once, not ever.

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You made the claim, now you back it up. Bush said it ? Where?

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You don't have to control the committees to affect the outcome of how things move through Congress.

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I never said millions of folks were being SPIED on. I said they were made de facto enemies of the state, for no other reason than because of their POLITICS. Bush never did that. Ever.

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Meanwhile, MILLIONS of Americans who really are freedom loving believers in the U.S. constitution are now targeted by the Government in a PURELY political move, and you folks think that turn about is fair play, or that this is even remotely o.k. ?

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Trust me those guys will be treated exactly the same. Why ? Because they weren't MIStreated in the 1st place.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So rapo, I've decided that since YOU demand "proof" so often ("proof" that Bush said "imminent threat" "proof" there weren't current WMD in Iraq etc.) you should be held to YOUR standards.

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I knew you'd come back w/ that sort of nonsensical reply. But you're overlooking a KEY elemeent here. Iraq was TRYING to keep their WMD a secret. What YOU'VE claimed isn't in the least bit any great secret. Either Bush said it, or he didn't. You've not shown where he DID say it, ergo......

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So far, you have failed to back up your statements with credible, verifiable fact.

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That's my line to you. And you're STILL failing.

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Excerpts from the Dept. of Homeland Security:

LEFTwing Extremism:
Current Economic and Political
Climate Fueling Resurgence in
Radicalization and Recruitment


LEFTwing extremists have capitalized on the election of a CONSERVATIVE president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new
members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and appeal
through propaganda, but they have not yet turned to attack planning.

Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to LEFTtwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that LEFTwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.

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Over the past five years, various rightwing extremists, ... have adopted the immigration issue as a call to action, rallying point,
and recruiting tool.

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Debates over appropriate immigration levels and enforcement policy
generally fall within the realm of protected political speech under the First Amendment,
but in some cases, anti-immigration or strident pro-enforcement fervor has been directed
against specific groups and has the potential to turn violent.

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So rapo, I've decided that since YOU demand "proof" so often ("proof" that Bush said "imminent threat" "proof" there weren't current WMD in Iraq etc.) you should be held to YOUR standards.

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I knew you'd come back w/ that sort of nonsensical reply.

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Iraq was TRYING to keep their WMD a secret

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


I assume the producers of FEAR FACTOR will be brought up on International Torture crimes by the end of next week, right ?


Right.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


I assume the producers of FEAR FACTOR will be brought up on International Torture crimes by the end of next week, right ?


Right.

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sincere and honest dialog

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you've been simply playing the contrarian

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Times reporters James Risen and Eric Lichtblau -- who broke the story of the Bush administration's domestic spying program in December 2004 -- reported that "in recent months," the NSA has engaged in an "overcollection" of domestic communication, far exceeding the already broad legal limits Congress established when it passed legislation to legalize the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program and granting immunity for the telecoms that enabled it. The same article reveals that in 2005 or 2006, the NSA attempted to wiretap an unidentified member of Congress, lending further credence to speculation earlier this year by Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.V., that he might have been spied on.

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Originally (mis)posted by AuRaptor:



Then you'll be exactly like the terrorist who we've been fighting against

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Again, funny, because I've never called for any of you assholes to be water boarded based on your POLITICAL VIEWS, but that is EXACTLY what you're promoting here. Just like the Taliban. Don't AGREE with them, TORTURE!!

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yep. That's right. I used the word 'assholes'. Because you deserved it. I've been insult free for a while now, even in the face of some of the most ridiculous and mindless vile hurled my way, trying to have more reasoned, mature and productive discussions on this board. But you on the Left simply won't have any of it. It simply is beyond your capability.

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Posted by AuRaptor:

Iraq , for so many reasons, was a noble cause.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I do not buy into arguments by Obama detractors/Bush supporters that this action proves that Torture wasn't Torture.

I do not buy into arguments by a myriad of confused souls that this action proves that there is no difference between Bush and Obama.

What I do buy is that this action is a promise to future lawbreakers that it's okay to break the law and violate basic human rights, so long as you are under orders to do so.

The Nuremberg trials were meant to establish the opposite premise - that saying 'I was under orders' is NOT a defense to misconduct. But apparently such precedents are now passe'.

This is the second time (in my opinion) that Obama has failed to do something that he SHOULD be doing. I am not particularly angry at the man when he talks about an Assault Weapons Ban, because I understood that his thinking was flawed in that regard. It was an evil I accepted when I cast my vote for the 'lesser evil.'

What sits bitterly in my mouth is when Obama fails to do something that his own morality should compel him to do. Democrats, Liberals, these are the people I rely on to preserve MOST of the Bill of Rights. Save that niggling Second Amendment.

But Obama let the telecommunication spying go unanswered, and now he's let torture go unanswered.

No, he does not earn guilt for Bush's actions when he makes this misstep. Rather, he earns guilt for all future violators. Because now he has broadcast the message, "Whatever your Chief says is okay. Do not hesitate in the performance of your duty."

Which is, like, the opposite of what I envision the American ideal to be.

--Anthony





"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

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2) Now, as far as targeting "conservatives" goes... I don't know if conservatives are being targeted. I rather doubt it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if extremists are being targeted... the kind that say "Let's kill all the wetbacks!" and "Let's get our guns and march on the White House!" (Which BTW is not protected speech).

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Kwicko,

This has not escaped me. But surely you know it takes even MORE will to go up the chain of command to the top than it does to off a few underlings?

If he doesn't have the will to prune the tree, I have no confidence in his ability to uproot it.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who exactly did the U.S. torture to cause the 9/11 attacks ?


Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

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Again, I ask: Which one?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who exactly did the U.S. torture to cause the 9/11 attacks ?


Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

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I think it goes back a bit further, to people like Bush I and Reagan...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

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Again, I ask: Which one?

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Why do you even reply if you're not interested in having a sincere debate of - ANYTHING ?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Which is why Osama bin Ladin waited until 1998 to release his Fatwa / Jihad call of war on the West,and why CLINTON'S photo was what the terrorist were shooting at during a propaganda training video.

Yeah, Bush and Reagan.

You moron.

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In 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri co-signed a fatwa in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders which declared the killing of the North Americans and their allies an "individual duty for every Muslim" to "liberate the holy mosque (in Mecca) from their grip".

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So, wanting the Gov't to stem the tsunami of ILLEGAL immigrants now makes me an EXTREMIST ?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
You're a complete and total troll. I'm sorry for having wasted my time w/ you Sig. My problem is that while I've been trying to have a sincere and honest dialog, you've been simply playing the contrarian, and making light of this entire message board exercise.

I gave you a specific example from the actual report, showed you what it says, and you simply want to believe what you want. "Screw the Facts ", that's your motto.
Nothing you post is in the least bit honest or sincere. If I said the sky was blue, you'd call it orange and then say I was a liar.

I'm done w/ this game.

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why CLINTON'S photo was what the terrorist were shooting at

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