Corporatism by SergeantX

What folks don't get is that our way is socialism for corporations- a welfare state for companies recognized as beings with rights. The small amount of cashy money that goes to actual welfare is now awesomely dwarfed by what those too big to fail are demanding. It's been so for a while, but the recession is making it more clear to peeps that want a free market economy, but never really had it to begin with.
Bipeds.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I absolutely 100% agree.

As I've said on previous occasions, when you start combining centers of power: religion, government, media, money, economy... that's when society runs off a cliff.

The combination of government and corporations is extremely dangerous. What we have now: a combination of government, corporations and the media -is truly frightening. Unless people start thinking in independent ways, we are going to be simply ripped up and torn apart.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:27 AM

I don't know if you read much of the wiki article, but it went into a bit more depth about the academic meaning of "corporatism", which uses a broader definition of corporation and doesn't necessarily refer to an individual business or even any commercial interest. The idea behind corporatism is that neither individuals nor the people as a whole are the primary unit of social power, but rather organized power blocks representing relatively focused interests.

This ties in with a book I read years ago by Mancur Olson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson) called The Rise and Decline of Nations. A major theme of the book was the notion that democracies inevitably mature into a collection of entrenched institutions that are the result of voting and power blocks organizing around common interests (labor, industry, agriculture, healthcare, banking, etc...). In his view, once that point is reached democracy become relatively moot as society is dominated by the entrenched power blocks. I hadn't heard of "corporatism" at the time, but there seems to be a lot overlap with Olson's ideas.

Anyway, I do see a lot of this in our current situation. The health care crisis seems like a pretty good example, where most attempts to solve it seem more concerned with the protecting the interests of the organized institutions involved (Insurance companies, big pharma, government, the AMA, etc...) than with breaking the obviously destructive spiral. The current banking crisis seems another, where the money masters basically threaten to take us all down with them if we don't give into their demands.

hmmmm

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

What this lacks is a certain historical perspective.

Always amazes me how quickly folk fail to remember the lessons of history, but then again with public school "history" being naught more than heavily distorted propaganda bordering on pure fiction, it shouldn't.

This crap didn't work for Mussolini, so why should it work this time around either ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy_under_Fascism,_1922%E2%8
0%931943

Of course, despite what revisionist history might say, the corporate side of america has always been heavily pro-fascist, they initially thought Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and we *did* support Franco against those pesky commie-socialist-anarchist peasants who actually wanted *gasp!* proper compensation for their labor! - I mean, how DARE they!
*SNARK*

A dynamic that stretches back to european peasant revolts against the nobility, really - only we here in america have gotten better and better at smashing them flat and removing any public support by villainising them in the media, any study of history will reveal that corporate power, government and the use of the military and various federal organisations was from 1910 the late 1960s, always more about removing the threat of effective unions and collectives than any danger communism or socialism presented to our national security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strikes

The red scares of early WWI and the 1950's, as well as the palmer raids and other whipped up hysteria, taken in proper context was merely a cover to destroy the anti-corporate threat posed by worker collectives of any kind, which have been trained over the course of a hundred years with the big stick of the federal military to never whine TOO much, and be content begging scraps from the boardroom table while the CEOs gorge themselves.

And just as the federal government has historically used its control over the military to support and empower the corporations at our expense, something the anti-federalists touched on when discussing the danger of standing armies - now they use their control over taxation and the economy to support and empower them financially.

This is the same neo-feudal-fascism that pre-dates even the foundation of this country and the damn federalists, having it's essential roots in european aristrocracy, and to be completely blunt it's naught more than a thin tissue of lies and polite fictions to delude those pesky peons into believing they are not subservient to their lords, every bit as much an illusion as the carrot dangled in front of a farmers mule to convince it to plow.

And that folks, is the question - are we smarter than a mule ?

Welcome to the Matrix.

It's all up to you.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

This is the same neo-feudal-fascism that pre-dates even the foundation of this country and the damn federalists, having it's essential roots in european aristrocracy, and to be completely blunt it's naught more than a thin tissue of lies and polite fictions to delude those pesky peons into believing they are not subservient to their lords

Absolutely. Nothing new here, except the legal language that facilitates the oppression.
But the USA is a large beast, unlikely to die, and more willing to mutate, as long as that mutation is favourable to an ultimate, hidden and general status quo.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:14 AM

So, how do we bust up the party? The Olson book claimed that the only way it's ever happened historically was through catastrophic change. Warfare, plague, famine, etc.. But does it have to be as ugly as all that? Couldn't we just "walk away"?

Quote:
I'm the king, and you all have to do what I say or else I can't be king anymore!

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:30 AM

Problem is, the government has a tendency to "require" things we would walk away from, like car insurance, for example.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Problem is, the government has a tendency to "require" things we would walk away from, like car insurance, for example.

What does it mean for them to "require" things? It means that they demand it and we comply. I drove for almost five years without insurance or a valid driver's license. The few times I got caught ended up costing me much less than five years worth of insurance would have. I don't necessarily recommend that anyone else do that. It was a calculated risk and something I only did out of perceived necessity. But what I learned in that stretch was just how little "they" really control things.

There really aren't that many cops and the "authorities" don't have the eyes and ears they'd like us to think. I'm not making this point to incite criminal activity or rebellion, but to make the point that the only reason they have power is because we give it to them. The reason we follow the law is because we want to. But when the law goes awry, when it is no longer protecting us and is instead being used enslave us, we don't have to "want to" anymore.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
The reason we follow the law is because we want to. But when the law goes awry, when it is no longer protecting us and is instead being used enslave us, we don't have to "want to" anymore.

I drove a motorcycle with just a learner's permit for five years, NY made it ridiculously difficult for a dude w/no biker pals to get a license, so I said "F*** 'em." But when my son was born, & finances thinned a bit, my courage in that area waned, and I went legit.
I sold out.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I sold out.

Heh... me too. I skipped the legitimate route because of a series of barriers (financial and otherwise) to getting the situation straightened out. But when I got back on my feet, I played nice. The point of my little confessional was not that we should all engage in petty rebellion, just that "non-compliance" isn't as big a leap as we sometimes think.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:14 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Yeah, that's getting harder to do nowadays. The cops in Austin are trying out a database that tells them whether your coverage is current just by them typing in your plate number. And if you've ever been at a light in front of a cop, you've seen him type in your number - it's something they do out of routine habit now, just to see if perchance there's something outstanding on you or your car!

And that's going to get worse, since they're talking about trying out a new camera ID system that will read off the plates as they drive by, whether you're parked or moving, as I understood it. Scary time to try to pull one over on them.

And yes, I went several years without insurance as well. I actually forged insurance paperwork. I didn't get in any wrecks, but I got a ticket or two, and just sent in payment with copies of the phony insurance documents.

And when I went legit and got insurance, I used to just let the registration and inspection lapse, and see how long I could go without getting them renewed. It only cost $10 for each ticket at the time (they called it a "fix & dismiss" fee) if you got it taken care of within a month, and I never seemed to be able to get off work when the places were open, so I'd end up driving for months on expired paperwork. My personal record? 3.5 years on expired registration AND inspection! And since the registration was $53.50/year and the inspection $28.50, and all I had to do was get those up-do-date and pay $10 extra on each, I saved quite a bit.

The cop giving me the ticket didn't appreciate me pointing that out, either. When he told me it was a $10 fine if I got it taken care of, I said, "Well, that's a whole lot cheaper than getting it registered and inspected every year!" He got pissed - "That's NOT the way you're supposed to look at it!"

In fact, as we speak, one of my cars is 6 months out of date. It's insured, all paid up - I just haven't gotten around to going down to the DMV to take care of it. Part of that is because you go to one place, and they invariably find a reason to send you across town to ANOTHER place, who when you finally get to talk to a human, will tell you that you need to go back to the FIRST place and tell them to take care of it. And that's just the registration hassle. Much easier if you can just do it online or by mail, but that wasn't an option for me this year, as my plates are due for renewal...

Mostly, I just hate dealing with the bureaucracies involved, because they don't like people, and the sure as hell don't like HELPING people, and they get paid whether they help you or not, so they'd really rather not. At least that's how it feels to a mere citizen.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:27 PM

You're sounding a little too much like me Mike.

Isn't it interesting though, how they take it much more seriously when you neglect paying fealty to the insurance companies than just about any other traffic issue?

The incident that started me down this road, in fact, brought that message home painfully. My first run in with law involved an auto accident. A guy ran a stop sign and t-boned me when I was driving my grandmother's car in Kansas (which had just passed a mandatory insurance law - they callied it 'no-fault' insurance whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). My grandmother was from Missouri, where liability insurance wasn't yet mandatory - so she didn't have any on the car. Anyway, net result - the guy who ran the stop sign and t-boned me got a $50 fine. I was fined $250 for not having insurance. I've been saying WTF??? ever since.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:38 PM

Quote:

You're sounding a little too much like me Mike.

I figure we all stage our quiet little rebellions where we can...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
the guy who ran the stop sign and t-boned me got a $50 fine. I was fined $250 for not having insurance.

And in the eyes of peeps who love authority, that was a natural, legal & healthy outcome. That's what makes me ruttin' crazy about society; inequity is okay if you've never had to be the victim of it.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:21 PM

BYTEMITE

I've never owned a car, so I don't pay insurance or get inspections for obvious reasons, so I'm just wondering, what constitutes an inspection?

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Couldn't we just "walk away"?

That's exactly what I have been advocating from the very beginning - we don't have to fight em, just outgrow their stupid endlessly paternal "control" and just walk away while refusing to listen to em anymore cause they're not offering anything we want.

Enough folk DO that, they're broken good and solid, since they'll have no one left to carry out their stupid orders.

The problem comes with those quisling bastards who throw over the reins of their lives so easily and volunteer to man the guns of tyranny, apparently ignorant of the fact that the damn fools are always among the first victims of em.

I got ZERO problem with eliminating those folk, cause they don't count in my eyes as "people" - they've surrended all of that which made em human in the first place.

I ain't talkin about the ignorant, or the misinformed, or folk who join the horde to put food on the table, mind you, cause every one of em is a potential ally - I am talking about the folk who KNOW IT'S WRONG, but do it anyway out of malicious spite, or "their" (idiots!) faction being in power, or cause they have personal petty vendettas, religious intolerance, or racism against the current "acceptable targets".

Those folk are less than people, un-human, if you will, and mean less to me than the blades of grass going into the blades of my lawnmower.

The best way to eliminate em, of course, is not to create em in the first damn place, which is why my focus is where it is.

It's not really any simpler than this...

All we really have to do, is grow up.

Any abused child will tell you of the tremendous sense of pure relief which came to them once they passed the "magic number" and were no longer under the dominion of their abusers - and yet, there's a certain comfort in the familiar, even when it's ugly, especially with the carefully fostered and fed fears thrown by an abuser to prevent those under their dominion from finding the courage to run.

More than half of this crap is because we don't have the balls to simply revoke our consent to it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
what constitutes an inspection?

It's a money making racket, pure and simple.

Unless you "know people" your vehicle will fail, and they'll present you with a list of "approved" facilities (which'll charge you 2-5 times and much and kick back a percentage) which will do the "required" work and thus gain you a waiver.

Or you can get the so-called "required" work done at a non approved facility and get "failed" again, for something else...

Or you can just bribe the bastards at the inspection like most folk do.

I figured this out when the "approved" facility wanted $135.00 USD to replace a PCV valve, which was in fact a $4.00 USD part, and a simple 3 second process to remove and replace.

Consumer Reports, if I recall correctly, once drove three BRAND NEW vehicles to inspection lots to "disprove" this theory - and the inspection centers failed all three, but that story seems to have fallen in the memory hole.

Before the use of computer databases, I used to make some very nice inspection stickers, undistinguishable from the real thing, and buyin from me was way cheaper than bending over for the man.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:54 PM

BYTEMITE

So it's emissions and transmission?

I can understand how it could be considered a money making racket, although cars forced to undergo emissions tests are often cars reported to have some problem that other drivers have noticed... A strong smell, an actual cloud of smoke, which makes it more likely the car will inevitably fail.

I've also read that cars with bad transmissions or that "smoke" produce emissions equivalent to the total emissions 30,000 other cars might produce. (Earth Under Siege, Turco, 2002)

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:28 PM

In Texas, it's making sure "safety" features work, things like wipers, headlights (high and low beams), mirrors are there, tires have some tread and are more or less round, mufflers are mostly there, horn works, etc. In some parts of the state, they are now also doing tailpipe "sniffer" tests for emissions.

When this came into being, I was all kinds of nervous the first time my CRX had to get the sniffer up the tailpipe. It's not exactly stock, but was lovingly built (by hand, no less) to tolerances more exacting than even the persnickety Honda factory requires. I apparently needn't have worried - I got the printout, and my nearly-twenty-year-old car came back with emissions in the lowest two percentile for its specified ranges! It's funny; I built it for more power, but apparently getting the most power out of a tiny (1.6 liter displacement) engine means you have to also make it QUITE efficient!

It's been "smogged" (the slang for the test) 3 times since then, and has always posted results in that range. Over 220,000 miles on that engine, and it's still about as clean as anything built in that era... and gets better mileage than most cars built today!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:42 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

In Phoenix, Arizona, you can't pass an inspection if your 'Check Engine' light is on.

They are not particularly interested in why the light is on. They don't need evidence of mechanical failure or excessive emission. If the light is on, you don't pass. I learned later that my 'Check Engine' light was on because I hadn't been to the shop to perform some routine maintenance. Frustrating, since nothing was actually wrong, and I don't have a lot of money to spend.

In Hialeah, Florida, I spent a lot of money in my youth getting a mechanic to fix my $2,000 clunker so it could pass emissions. This was particularly frustrating because any Classic Car, City Bus, or 747 could dump noxious black smoke all over me legally.

The idea behind emissions testing is sound, but the application of the idea makes it a racket.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, April 20, 2009 8:39 AM

BYTEMITE

There is, however, something disturbingly Orwellian about being encouraged to report other drivers for inspections.

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Monday, April 20, 2009 9:04 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Mostly, I just hate dealing with the bureaucracies involved, because they don't like people, and the sure as hell don't like HELPING people, and they get paid whether they help you or not, so they'd really rather not. At least that's how it feels to a mere citizen.

I'm stunned. Quite stunned in fact, to be reading that from you. Now if I could only convince you that shrinking government is better than growing it.

I've dealt with several Bureaucracies in my time. The BMV is certainly common to us all. Beyond that I've been in Building Depts, election board offices, & permitting offices both in Indiana and in San Francisco CA. They all sucked in equal measure. I've had low level employees ask "How can I help you" while looking down at whatever they're doing and clearly not listening to my response to the inqury. I've learned never to trust a government employee to follow up on any business that requires more than one day to approve. A wise mentor of mine once taught me that if you absoutely must call a bureaurcrat, do so between 10:00am-10:30am. This is because they do not work before 9, they chit-chat in break rooms from 9-10, and are thinking about lunch by 10:30. Afternoons are crap shoots with more breaks and early departures for home. But at 10:00am they are most likely to actually be at a desk. He had a sign by his head on a wall that read "Remember to call your bureaurcrat at 10:15." No joke.

I hate public sector work. I'm a private enterprise man through-and-through.

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Monday, April 20, 2009 2:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Mostly, I just hate dealing with the bureaucracies involved, because they don't like people, and the sure as hell don't like HELPING people, and they get paid whether they help you or not, so they'd really rather not. At least that's how it feels to a mere citizen.

I'm stunned. Quite stunned in fact, to be reading that from you. Now if I could only convince you that shrinking government is better than growing it.

Don't know why that would stun you. When I refer to bureaucracies, I'm referring to them also in the sense of trying to get anywhere with AT&T or CitiBank or Microsoft of any number of other huge entities whose job seems to be to do everything possible to keep you from ever being able to interact with an actual PERSON, or to keep them from ever having to actually do their freaking JOB.

Have you dealt with your insurance company lately?

It's not like government has any kind of monopoly on shitty customer service!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Monday, April 20, 2009 2:59 PM