TEA party protesters and what we really want. by SignyM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay guys... TEA party protestors and all... the floor is yours.

Don't tell me what you DON'T want. Tell me what you WANT.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:37 AM

I'm of the opinion these days that ALL of it was bullshit from the start. All of a sudden, one fateful day, everything was about to collapse? I'm supposed to believe that? No way. Bush was too stupid and Paulson too inept and greedy to see through the fraud that was occuring. Obama & Geithner have only worsened the fraud and theft of our tax dollars. Worse than that, they are on the verge of rendering our currency worthless. I do not blame Capitalism. It has served our country well for 200+ years. 99% of business "capitalists" do business honestly and ethically every day. The real problem here was Govt. entitites, set up as pseudo-corporations, gave false security to banks, etc that made either greedy or poor financial decisions. A small handful of large powerful corporations got intoxicated on the rewards of operating un-ethically. Socialism sounds good to the lazy masses who want Govt handouts, but most Americans want the opportunity to succeed in life, and only capitalism can offer the reward for the hard work. But ya gotsta do the hard work. Shortcuts to success lead to what we're goin' through now.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:38 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Exactly.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
but most Americans want the opportunity to succeed in life, and only capitalism can offer the reward for the hard work.

So, you want a system that offers prosperity for... some? With the idea perhaps that a rising tide raises ALL boats?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:04 AM

Economics isn't my forte, but I'll try to explain how I feel about things.

So the question here, for me, is: if I could make my own little world, and choose all the systems of government, social programs, and set the type of economy, what world would I make?

There's two ways of looking at capitalism. One is that the individuals who excel under capitalism give back to the community through the products they produce, and that the success capitalism offers is a keen motivation to do great things.

The other perspective is that inevitably the people who excel will keep consolidating the power that brings, until they can rope the rest of society into doing their bidding at their prices.

Socialism aims to provide for everyone in the society, and also prevent oppression from the overseers in that society. A noble cause, but no one's quite managed it on a large scale. You either have a corrupt government, a government that becomes overstretched and can't provide for it's people, or the really scary governments that start to exert control over every aspect of a person's life and don't care much about the individual.

Tribal groups and small communities, though, there's something appealing about the way they all rely on each other, care about each other, and help each individual find something they're good at that they enjoy doing. They all know if someone sneezes, but in a perfect world they'd also respect each other enough to respect privacy if it were asked for.

It's possible I'm idealizing that a bit much, but that's the way I see it. That's what I think would be ideal on a local scale.

Between communities you could promote trade, were people with a more capitalistic bent could prosper. I also think progress is an important goal to pursue, technology-wise and intellectually. I'd hope that either the inter-community trade could keep great minds motivated by opportunity and potential, and if not that then the simple human joy of curiosity and creation.

Feel free to point and laugh. I know it's not realistic. Probably eventually the little community would get forced by the strongest or most charismatic person into working for them to create the goods they export. But if it didn't, hey, it'd be pretty good, and that's how tribes and clans worked for a long time before imperialism, fuedalism, and capitalism stepped among them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:09 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So... all of you pro-capitalists out there: WHY should we continue with capitalism?

Because history proves....again, and again, and again....that capitalism breeds inovation. Economic freedom is VITAL to the growth of the human condition.

But also, temperance is required. Because after all, few people on the planet could be said to possess the wisdom of Solomon. Greed is the dark evil behind the capital virtue of economic freedom. This is why a nation of LAWS, properly enforced, WILL protect the people.

This must be the way of humanity until the day comes when everyone suddenly becomes enlightened and we live like the Vorlons from Babylon 5.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
but most Americans want the opportunity to succeed in life, and only capitalism can offer the reward for the hard work.
So, you want a system that offers prosperity for... some? With the idea perhaps that a rising tide raises ALL boats?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I want a system that offers prosperity for .......those who are willing to study and work hard for it. I don't want economic equality for lazy dropouts who have done little or nothing to improve their job skills, if they had any in the first place. I don't want to see a country full of Maoists waving their Little Red Book all wearing the same drab uniform. True, we are ALL created equal. But after our creation it's up to us to be responsible for our lives and efforts to succeed. Equality breeds mediocrity. That's why most honest Corporations are going down the tubes. Diversity and other PC programs are killing the businesses by keeping inept people employed, but at least they're staying out of court for someone's "rights" being supposedly violated. And they care more about that than making money it seems sometimes. So in many ways real Capitalism died a long time ago.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:16 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

My dad's a fan of bioregionalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

As for me... I don't know what I would want ideally; I tend to focus on how to improve situations now. I think capitalism could work better, with good oversight and social programs, but ultimately there will probably still be gross inequalities. Communism sounds nice in theory, but fails in practice. I don't fancy pure socialism - something about it just bothers me.

I am a big fan of antitrust laws, though. And, "Too big to fail means too big to exist," has a nice ring to it.

---
"Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:20 AM

Ooh, bioregional anarcho-socialism! Nice call, Yinyang!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Jongstraw, I feel that I don't properly understand you. You want a system that rewards hard work.

Why?

I know that sounds like a stupid question, but clearly you value hard work as being useful for... something. I mean, in our current system it's possible for a single person to produce enough for 100 others. With our level of automation we're way beyond having to slave away dawn to dusk planting, harvesting, threshing, drying, spinning, herding, weaving....

So what does this "hard work" do for us? Promote innovation? Improve productivity?

Or do you value hard work simply as a moral imperative?

And speaking of work... sorry, guys. Gotta get back at it!
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:28 AM

I'd say it helps with some innovation, as people always want to figure out how to make hard work less hard.

If you remove work, say by having automation and robots provide everything for us, what do people do with their time?

I know it seems like people would read more books, or produce more artwork/writing, or more science, or more inventions, or try to improve their own lives, but I tend to see a LOT of procrastination on those fronts. Most likely, people would become more complacent then they are now. Scary. Those who didn't would be bored, seeking greater and more risky thrills, possibly become criminal.

Ever read Fahrenheit 451? That's exactly the kind of world I think would arise. Once the public doesn't care, then the people who recognize the threat of free-thinking to their power base are able to start getting rid of the greatest proponent of free-thought: books. Once that happens, getting back out would be very hard.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:28 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
My dad's a fan of bioregionalism:

You father would have fit well into the City-states of ancient Greece. Or on a 'verse rim world.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongstraw, I feel that I don't properly understand you. You want a system that rewards hard work.

Why?

I know that sounds like a stupid question, but clearly you value hard work as being useful for... something. I mean, in our current system it's possible for a single person to produce enough for 100 others. With our level of automation we're way beyond having to slave away dawn to dusk planting, harvesting, threshing, drying, spinning, herding, weaving....

So what does this "hard work" do for us? Promote innovation? Improve productivity?

Or do you value hard work simply as a moral imperative?

And speaking of work... sorry, guys. Gotta get back at it!
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I can't tell if you're being obtuse here or just argumentative. Certainly you have the intelligence to understand my words. When I refer to study and hard work, I don't necessarily mean tilling the fields. Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Katie Couric, my teachers & professors I had in school, my Dad, etc etc etc ....they all studied and worked hard to get where they are in the world. Doctors, lawyers, CPA's, MBA's...those sheepskins aren't just handed out to the mob standing outside. They have to be earned. Once you earn it, it tells the world you are ready to become a productive member of their organization. If you skip over all the hard study and work, you may end up in a factory, and for many folks that's ok. Or you may just drop out of society and become a drunk or drug adict,. That's ok too, but don't ask me or Tiger Woods, or Oprah to give up what we have acheived in order to artificially level the playing field for them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You're telling me what you DON'T want. I get that!

But, where is all this "hard work" going? We're at a technological stage where we could probably produce everything that we needed and much of what we wanted... and STILL repair the planet!... for only four hours of work a day. So what is the purpose of promoting "hard work"? Separate the capable from the incapable to improve the species somehow?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:47 AM

SignyM's not being obtuse or argumentative, she's using the Socratic method.

I can't speak for other people (If I did in my previous post, then I over-stepped my bounds), but I know, if I didn't have work to focus me, I could spend all day every day discussing philosophy and politics on the internet.

And in doing so, not only would I be hurting myself, but I would be hurting society and everyone around me.

Heck, I do a little too much of that anyway as it is...

In my opinion, humans, simply put, aren't efficient. And we're even LESS efficient when you put a bunch of us together. You could institute a four hour work week, but would anything get done?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:02 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Don't ask me or Tiger Woods, or Oprah to give up what we have acheived in order to artificially level the playing field for them.

Hear, Hear.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Again, that's what you DON'T want.

And nobody (in this thread at least) is asking that anyway!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:26 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"... if I didn't have work to focus me, I could spend all day every day discussing philosophy and politics on the internet."

And that's a problem - why ? That was the Greek ideal life. That's why they has slaves and lesser classes of people. So the lesser people could do the necessary work for the better people, and the better people could think and discuss and study.

Now we have machines and old dead biological material (gas, oil, coal) to be our slaves. We can live the ideal life of study, discussion, and contemplation.

Of course our physical life might suffer, since all that sitting around is good for no one.

BTW - most hunter-gatherer societies, who live in very much the same way as our evolutionary past, spend 4 hours a day or less in the actual getting of food and water. They 'work' very few hours compared to agricultural societies.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:42 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Speaking of hard work: Thinking about what you WANT ... it's a lot harder than finding something that you DON'T want.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:46 AM

They also went hungry a lot, which isn't generally conducive to the creative process.

Why is it a problem, for me to just be the female version of an internet drone?

For one thing, I wouldn't be creating anything. In my opinion, talk is just talk. Over the internet, I like talk (not so much in real life, I'm pretty cold actually) but am I really doing anything productive? It sure doesn't seem like it.

I'm seriously doubt I'm going to write the next great philosophical classic, so if ultimately I'm not influencing anyone or producing, what good does talking all day about philosophy and politics do? Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I'm doing anything worthwhile.

Society relies on people MAKING things. Creating. Production and consumption, even in non-capitalistic systems. Someone has to take the corn that's been grown to town so everyone can eat. Someone has to write that neat new play, or that book everyone's talking about, or paint that pretty sunset.

My ideas aren't new, I'm not creating them, and so, for society, I am not adding value.

And on a personal level, not only is it unhealthy for me to just sit around talking, but I'm not engaging with other human beings face to face. Also, I'm not doing anything which is more productive, and I actually take some personal level of satisfaction from being productive. When I can't write, or draw, or do my job at work (which I enjoy), I eventually get frustrated, no matter how much I might enjoy a good debate.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:53 AM

KIRKULES

I can't speak for Tea Party protesters, because I wasn't one of them and they are a very diverse group. What I would like to see, is a simple Federal tax system that requires everyone to pay taxes. Currently only about 60% of Americans pay Federal income taxes and by the end of the Obama administration we can expect this to be close to 50%. Once we reach the 50% mark there will be no turning back until we reach a catastrophic downfall. You simply can't have over 51% of your voting population in a position to increase their benefits at the expense of the other 49%. I really don't care at this point how progressive the new system is, that can be sorted out over time, all that is essential how is that all Americans have a stake in the future of this country and don't begin to see Government as a way to use the voting booth to get a pay raise.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So you want everyone to have a stake in the (government tax) system. Fair enough! What do you think might happen otherwise? Loss of production?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"They also went hungry a lot ..."

The Greeks ? Or the hunter-gatherers ?

"I'm seriously doubt I'm going to write the next great philosophical classic, so if ultimately I'm not influencing anyone or producing, what good does talking all day about philosophy and politics do? Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I'm doing anything worthwhile."

Very few of us are going to write the next great philosophical classic, or book classic, or movie classic or ... and that makes us or you less worthy of enjoying life ? Of doing things that are enjoyable ? What do you have against enjoyment, anyway, except for some Puritanical attitude that it's wrong ?

"Society relies on people MAKING things. Creating. Production and consumption ..."

I'll go with the production part. (I have an issue with excess consumption, which I think is necessary for capitalism to run and ruinous to the planet and us humans.) What if you could run a machine 4 hours/day that would do all that 'production' for you ? Would you find personal benefit to working more ? Would it make you a better person? More worthwhile ? Would working hard to speed up the pace of production and consumption make for a better society ? A better planet ? A better, more worthwhile you ?

I suggest you read the book 'The Dispossessed' by Ursula Le Guin. While she primarily addresses different questions, one question she does sideswipe is -

What do you do with your life if you're not being used by your society ? How do you fill the need some people have to being necessary and useful ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:56 PM

Hunter-gathers. Probably some Greeks too, but they weren't exactly producing time-honored artwork or books like their famous, better-fed contemporaries, either.

It's not an issue of enjoyment = bad, it's an issue of overindulgence. I spend too much time as it is on hobbies that have no worth to anyone but myself. They don't better the human condition, they aren't anything lasting that'll resonate through history, they aren't even fulfilling anyone's basic needs.

Everyone has hobbies, but if hobbies were ALL we did, progress and society would grind to a standstill. Overindulgence. Major problem.

And, yeah, actually, I think I would be a better person if I worked more. I have an obligation to the society that raised me, and to human kind in general. We all depend on each other. I have a pretty big debt to repay, and it's only going to get bigger.

What would I do with my life? I already told you. I'd waste it away in idleness. Personally, I think that's far sadder than any other fate I could suffer, so I'll take the work, thank you.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't cubical dwellers who are abused by companies, and they could be doing so much better and so much more if they were liberated from their empty pointless jobs. I merely am admitting that this is not the case for me, because at least with a job I'm DOING something. I don't know how significant, but it's something.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, it seems to number of people able or willing to post what they WANT (not what they don't want) has gone down to a trickle.

Anyone else care to weigh in before me?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:45 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Bytemite,

Here's what I don't get. We have a society where ALL of life's needs can be met without grueling work for hours and hours each week.

The only reasons for the amount of work people are doing right now are: 1) excessive consumption 2) profit.

If profit was removed from the equation, and consumption reduced to less planet-killing levels, you could meet your debt to society, produce more than enough to contribute to your fellow humans, AND have a life of relative leisure.

It's not either / or. You can actually have both !

Given that - would you still choose to do more work ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:55 PM

Not really: like I said, outside of work, I'm not technically producing anything. And I can't really improve my life beyond what it is now.

However, I did edit my post above to concede that this is most likely not the case for everyone.

If I had the will-power to limit the amount of time I spend on the internet at work, and to work more, I'd do so in a heartbeat. I feel like a thief.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You're telling me what you DON'T want. I get that!

But, where is all this "hard work" going? We're at a technological stage where we could probably produce everything that we needed and much of what we wanted... and STILL repair the planet!... for only four hours of work a day. So what is the purpose of promoting "hard work"? Separate the capable from the incapable to improve the species somehow?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Actually, I don't think that you "get anything" about this subject. Maybe you're an artist, or a writer, or some other type of liberal free spirit, and your world revolves around your concept of some advanced technological perception you have of things, but I can tell you that I've been in the production and service world all my life, and nothing will ever replace good old fashioned hard work to acheive company objectives. When those objectives are met or surpassed everyone benefits. It's what makes the job/career fun, exciting, and rewarding. Maybe I'm old school, but I never forget for one day that my job pays for everything in my life, and allows me and mine to do what we like to do, and live in a manner we feel we earned. I look at everything I have and I can say I earned it. No one gave it to me. And I know that I didn't hurt anyone in the process. In fact I believe that many people today have a better life because of the opportunities I was a part bringing to them. So yeah, I'm a capitalist true and true. I don't apologize for it.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I feel like a thief."

So, you feel guilty for enjoying yourself. A Puritan has come out of the closet !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:13 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I look at everything I have and I can say I earned it. No one gave it to me."

And I (anyway) am not talking about anyone giving anyone anything. I'm saying you can EARN your way through life with a lot less work.

Is that a problem ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Not one bit.

On the other hand, I LIKE building stuff - so too do many others, but few dare for fear of tripping over some supercorporations pre-pasted and vaguely worded, or retroactive and specific, copyright.

The squeeze on IP needs to go, as does Corporate Personhood.

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:28 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Still waiting for peeps... Geezer? Finn? Rappy? AnthonyT? Story? Chrisisall? Kwicko?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:47 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So you want everyone to have a stake in the (government tax) system. Fair enough! What do you think might happen otherwise? Loss of production?

---------------------------------

It's not a matter of the amount of production as much as it is who is being productive. Relieving 51% of the population of the burden of Government can only lead to a permanent lower class dependent on the Government. The Government in turn will be totally dependent on the 49% that do the majority of the production. The resulting increase in burden on the most productive will lead to a lack of incentive for additional production. Once the overall "pie" begins to shrink, it's a downward spiral. Making it acceptable for a whole class of citizens to decrease their productivity and see no difference in their lifestyle is one of the reasons Communism always fails. Maximising productivity of the individual is a worthy goal, but because of the overpopulation of the Earth is is not possible for everyone to be productive because of limited resources. All of the "Green" technology in the world won't make a lick of difference if the population of the World continues to grow. This population growth is only possible because those that are productive subsidise those who are not. It's exactly the types of policies that transfer burdens from one individual to another that lead to underproduction and massive over population.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:12 PM

I don't understand how I can be puritan if I'm atheist... Or if I feel guilty for spending time on the internet when I SHOULD be working. Listen to me when I say it's excessive, and that it's actually interfering negatively with my life. I don't sleep much...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:22 PM

Also, I don't think I've been addressing my concerns with your four hour work day proposal clearly enough.

I'm concerned that without work, humanity could become a pampered bunch of hedonists. You think complacency is bad with just television? I imagine a world without people having to work, and I imagine... Opiates of the masses, a contented, vacant, vapid population of unthinking cattle.

Back when folks had slaves and servants, what percentage do you think were producing actual works of intellectual and artistic genius, and how many were just... Taking up space? Living like leeches off the workers, living in arrogance and pride with disdain for the "lower people?"

At the risk of destroying the illusion of credibility of my argument by mentioning pop culture... I'm reminded of that movie WALL-E, just without the overt corporations and all the pollution.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:43 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

First of all Bytemite

Let me preface this by saying I'm going to have to be mostly offline for a few weeks, so if I don't carry this discussion further, please don't take it in any way other than I'm out of time.

So - well, I guess I have to be hit on the head a few times to get it. Here, let me try that myself:

.

NOW I get where you're coming from !

I'm not talking about personal responses to an indeterminate work-schedule (see your PM), I'm talking about a system where a legitimate work schedule for everyone and anyone is 4 /5.

What I find perplexing is we have here a group of people who can imagine ftl, with a planet of zombies and reavers, a system of inner planets and fringe worlds - who can't imagine a system where a legitimate work week might be 20 hours.

Technology - the bowl, fire, metalworking, agriculture, writing - has changed our lives forever. We are no longer animals subject to the perils of our immediate environment. OUR EXISTENCE IS SECURE. We can make enough, plant enough, store enough to live without fear of running out.

And due to our further technology, we no longer need to work very hard, either. Take steel mills and auto-plants for example. Where and when I grew up it was considered the mark of a man to get a job there where you worked hard. There was value, by gosh ! in passing the test of manhood. Could you do it ? Were you one of the men ?

The Japanese, OTOH, with no such hang-ups, do their steel and auto manufacturing by robot. The sensible way, I might add.

We no longer need to work hard, and haven't for a very, very long time.

So why do we do it ? Why do we have long hours and hard work ? And more important, why do we cling to them ?

If you could have a job that legitimately only took 20 hours/ week would you still opt for a 40 hour/ week job ?

***************************************************************

ETA:

You know how primitive people deal with all that time ? They hang out and tell stories. They paint each other's bodies. They rest and watch the kids play. And is that so bad ?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:48 PM

I would. I can understand why other people wouldn't...

I think American car companies didn't use robots because of all the jobs that change over would represent.

And the unions, who didn't want workers to lose their jobs.

Probably that's the reason other businesses still have a 40 hour workweek. To keep up our country's employment numbers, and to remain competitive while doing so.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:00 PM

SERGEANTX

More than anything else I want time.

One of my favorite books was Heinlein's Time Enough For Love. For those of you haven't read it, it's basically the chronicles of a man who's over two thousand years old. One of the central themes of the book is that the average person spends their entire life just getting to the point that they can begin to truly live - then they die. So, that's what I want. Time enough to really appreciate life.

"Hard work" sucks. Or rather what most people think of when they say "hard work" sucks. If hard work means doing something you don't like, struggling and toiling for some future payoff that may, or may not, come to fruition, then you can count me out. I want leisure.

There is, however, a kind of work that is sublime, and that's also part of what I want. I've actually reached a point in my life where I've found that to some degree, but it took my own stubborn refusal to do "hard work" for me to get here.

So, what do I want from an economic system? I want it to stay out my way. To the maximum extent feasible, I want the freedom to live life in a way that works for me, with the people I love. I want an economic system, and indeed a society, that understands there is no one right way to live and respects that not everyone wants the same thing.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

What do I WANT? Well, more Firefly, obviously - and I'm surprised I'm the first to mention that here... ;)

I'd love to see my government at least as interested in the health, education, and welfare of its own people as it is of those in other countries. I'd like to have a health system where if you were sick, you went to a doctor and got treated. An education system where if you wanted to go to college, you could. A welfare and unemployment system that wasn't a hand-out, but a hand up, where you could actually get training to get a better job, and where if you didn't have a job, you had a safety net, but you had to work for it - in other words, you'll get your unemployment check, but you're going to put in 20 hours a week, whether it's picking up trash on the side of the highway, cleaning up a park, or what have you. I call this idea "WorkFair" - a play on "work", "welfare", and "fair". You work 20 hours a week helping out the city or state government, and you get your "unemployment" check. The work isn't fun, or glamorous, but it's not money for nothing, either - and it just might inspire you to get a better job on your own, or with the help and training made available to you. Working 20 hours a week will allow you plenty of time to look for work and go on interviews, too. And if you'd rather go to school, that's covered - as long as you're putting in your 20 hours per week.

All of this is going to be expensive. It's going to take a BIG initial investment, and it's not going to start showing results or paying dividends for at least four years - which means no politician in the world will ever propose it, back it, or vote for it. But what no one has ever been able to explain to me is how a better-educated, better-trained populace is going to HURT your economy and your productivity.

Offer public education not just through high school, but through college and/or vocational/trade schools. Even if you offered it free to every citizen, there would be those who wouldn't take you up on it. For graduate degrees, have a system where you sign a contract like some people do with the ROTC for the military - your school is paid for, and in return you owe that company X number of years of employment at a fair salary.

What I'd LIKE and what I WANT are that we invest at least as much money in our own futures as we've been willing to invest in invading other nations to "secure" THEIR futures. Will it cost a lot? Yup - but still much less than our latest war. And I think it would have a hell of a lot better result, too.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay. Except for Jongsstraw (and Frem) who seems to be outliers, my various conversations with people and what they want out of an economic system: whether it is capitalism. socialism, or something else- is very simple:

Prosperity. Now and for our children and THEIR children

Nobody wants an economic system because it makes us and our children poorer. Those who argue for capitalism... and I've spoken with many (Fletch, Geezer, et al, any of whom SHOULD chime in where I go wrong) say that the great disparity in wealth is what incentivizes progress, innovation, investment- prosperity for the future. Those who argue for socialism or for regulated capitalism or a green economy or something else, say the same.

Since we all* seem to want the same things, more or less, the only discussion after that is: How do we best get there? What are we willing to give up for it?

*Jongsstraw looks at work as a virtue in and of itself, to be rewarded, regardless of whether that works is necessary or can be replaced. Frem is willing to take a technological hit for greater freedom.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:48 AM

KWICKO

Well, to some degree I find work a virtue and a reward in and of itself, too. I've done a great deal of work on other people's cars over the years, the vast majority of it for free, because I had the tools and know-how and they needed it and were poor like me.

I build my own furniture not just because I'm cheap (which I am), but because I don't find anyone building the pieces I like or want at a price I find reasonable. Again, I've got tools and some know-how, so why not try it myself?

These things I work at not for money, or for a job, or as a vocation or career, but because they relax me. I find my better self in the work. It forces me to slow down, think, plan, relax, and not push; it makes me pay attention and focus. All of these are things that I *DO* find helps me with my day job, too, but that's just a bonus, really. And I've tried working on cars for a living, and absolutely hated it, for the same reason I hate working on my own car at 3:00 in the morning because I have to get it running to get to work tomorrow - it's the deadline aspect of it, the MUST GET FINISHED part, which makes it WORK and not FUN.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:16 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Since we all* seem to want the same things, more or less, the only discussion after that is: How do we best get there? What are we willing to give up for it?

Not sure where you're placing me in your construction, but I don't want a "system" that "provides" me with any in particular. Prosperity is a pretty vague term. Even amongst the people you're claiming to be in agreement, it varies wildly. I guess this pings my central issue with most of western society. We don't have to decide there is one, or one set, of valid goals and then all agree to a "system" that promotes those goals. Really, what's wrong with "live and let live"?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Kwicko, I agree with you. One thing that people have not addressed is a possible distant future in which no work is necessary at all. IMHO "work" is a basic human drive, as necessary as eating or sleeping. It provides us with a sense of control and - in Jongsstraw's case- a sense of shared gaols, a community. So the theoretical endpoint of the arc described by our current trends is prolly unhealthy for us, just as our constant drive for food in a food-rich environment is causing an obesity issue, and our drive for visual stimulation and entertainment is causing a disconnect from reality.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:38 AM

SergeantX: Since you bring it up, homesteading wouldn't be a bad way to go either. I'm pretty easy, so long as society stops churning out lonely disconnected desperate people, or people who just don't care about much of anything.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay. Except for Jongsstraw (and Frem) who seems to be outliers, my various conversations with people and what they want out of an economic system: whether it is capitalism. socialism, or something else- is very simple:

Prosperity. Now and for our children and THEIR children

Nobody wants an economic system because it makes us and our children poorer. Those who argue for capitalism... and I've spoken with many (Fletch, Geezer, et al, any of whom SHOULD chime in where I go wrong) say that the great disparity in wealth is what incentivizes progress, innovation, investment- prosperity for the future. Those who argue for socialism or for regulated capitalism or a green economy or something else, say the same.

Since we all* seem to want the same things, more or less, the only discussion after that is: How do we best get there? What are we willing to give up for it?

*Jongsstraw looks at work as a virtue in and of itself, to be rewarded, regardless of whether that works is necessary or can be replaced. Frem is willing to take a technological hit for greater freedom.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I'm having trouble trying to figure out just what kind of world you and Rue think we live in regarding technology and work. I have almost no exposure to many "creative" or "artsy" fields, but have worked and been exposed to planning production, marketing, contracts, customer service and management. My company has technology in the forms of T-1 line, co. website, e-mail, instant messaging, but we all still "work". We meet, we plan, we follow-up, we discipline, we promote, we hire & fire. Millions of jobs, like delivery drivers, food service workers, factory workers, real estate agents, secretaries, office clerks, maintenance workers, supervisors, directors, SVP's etc all work hard every day to keep their jobs. Technology cannot replace these jobs. For every creature comfort we have, someone else has worked hard to develop it, plan it, produce it, package it, advertise it, and deliver it to you. In some cases technology HAS freed up people to be more productive. Go To My PC, and Go To Meetings have reduced travel costs and reduced the need to commute to a physical place of work for some. Business is always about reducing expenses and improving methodologies to be more profitable and efficient. So what are you saying Signy? We should all stay home and let foreigners do everything for us? How does that work?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:52 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Kwicko, I agree with you. One thing that people have not addressed is a possible distant future in which no work is necessary at all. IMHO "work" is a basic human drive, as necessary as eating or sleeping. It provides us with a sense of control and - in Jongsstraw's case- a sense of shared gaols, a community. So the theoretical endpoint of the arc described by our current trends is prolly unhealthy for us, just as our constant drive for food in a food-rich environment is causing an obesity issue, and our drive for visual stimulation and entertainment is causing a disconnect from reality.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Another thing to consider is that often, it's the "work" of certain people - artists, architects, craftspeople of all sorts - that drives the aesthetic of the age. They don't set out to set the design trends, they often aren't even doing it for the money; many times, they're just driven to create - that's the "work" that drives them forward, and in the process, pulls us all into the future with them.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Jongsstraw. both Rue and I are analytical chemists, and before that Rue was a med tech in a county "stat" lab and I was a "source tester" (climbed smoke stacks for a living). Also, maintaining a family is work. Keeping your house up is work.

AT this point in our technology work is a necessity and I'm certainly not saying that work can (or even should) be abolished. What I AM saying is that if you were to take all of the necessary work that our culture requires and divide it up by all of adults who are able to work, it would prolly come out to about 20 hours a week, possibly even less. So why the huge emphasis on hard work?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw. both Rue and I are analytical chemists, and before that Rue was a med tech in a county "stat" lab and I was a "source tester" (climbed smoke stacks for a living). Also, maintaining a family is work. Keeping your house up is work.

AT this point in our technology work is a necessity and I'm certainly not saying that work can (or even should) be abolished. What I AM saying is that if you were to take all of the necessary work that our culture requires and divide it up by all of adults who are able to work, it would prolly come out to about 20 hours a week, possibly even less. So why the huge emphasis on hard work?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

My answer to your question will likely seem old-fashioned to you, but here goes...If you want to succeed in business, work harder and smarter than everyone around you. Come in early, leave late. Be loyal, honest, and committed. Put things in the perspective that it's your company and your money. Does all this guarantee that you will advance in a company? No, but you won't know until you try. If your extra efforts are not recognized or appreciated, you can stay on with pride that you've done your best, or you can consider moving on. Honestly, I see many young people apply and start working where I'm employed. Some have that special quality a company is looking for and demonstrate it almost immediately. Others seem to have either an attitude problem, or un-realisitc expectations of what work is supposed to be.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:33 AM