Punishing Success, Rewarding Failure by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Punishing Success, Rewarding Failure

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 10:24
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VIEWED: 4815
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Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:04 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GMAC (Ally Bank)- the only part of GM which might escape bankruptcy (through no effort of their own) - is getting another bundle of money from the Feds in the form of stock purchases. GMAC will be taking over Chrysler Financing and is getting the cash to do it. But poor Ford. Ford is doing everything right. They’re keeping their dealerships, all of them. They’re trying to stay competitive by offering better products. They’re raising money the old-fashioned way. And they’re getting stiffed as Germany and the USA prop up GM’s corpse and tilt the playing field. It seems to me that if the Chrysler financing arm should go to anyone, it should go to Ford.

Meanwhile I heard an interesting interview with Jim Rogers, the head of Duke Power. Duke Power is one of the oldest, meanest, dirtiest, coal-based power companies ever. (Harlan County www.ejumpcut.org/archive/onlinessays/JC14folder/HarlanCty.html ) Jim Rogers is supporting Obama’s push towards reducing global warming. It took me a second to figure out why, but then I realized- It was all about “cap and trade”. Companies which still belch out hundred of tons of carbon dioxide are sitting on a veritable gold mine. They’re being rewarded for staying stuck in the stone age. Meanwhile, all of those companies who took a flyer on new technology: wind farms, solar farms, geothermal energy, get… nothing.

And then there’s the so-called healthcare reform. With the public insurance plan being taken out of consideration at the Senate level (time to focus on the House!) it’s begining to look like nothing more than a big giveaway to the folks who fucked everything up in the first place.

What the frak is going on??? Even during this crisis… a crisis which they created… the wealthy well-connected are finding ways to bend the recovery to their advantage, siphoning off the dollars which may ruin our nation’s credit rating. I'm not a free-marketeer, but gorramit, it’s all so stupid I just want to bang my head against a wall. The question is: What can we do about it???

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

The question is: What can we do about it???

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Vote Republican.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

This from the guy whose hero started the avalanche? Who blindly threw hundreds of billions of dollars at the banking industry, no strings attached? Really, rappy. Somewhere in your past you took a flyer out of reality.

I want government to show MORE independence from the PTB, not less!
----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
SignyM wrote:
Thursday, May 21, 2009 15:14
This from the guy whose hero started the avalanche?

Who is this " guy " you speak of ? You're babbling again. Make some sense, woman!

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:20 PM

SERGEANTX

To be entirely fair, Signy, Bush received more support for his bailout from Democrats than he did from Republicans. And Obama hasn't exactly reversed the trend.

How's about "Vote Libertarian"?

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:57 PM

BADKARMA00

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
To be entirely fair, Signy, Bush received more support for his bailout from Democrats than he did from Republicans. And Obama hasn't exactly reversed the trend.

How's about "Vote Libertarian"?

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

----------------

I've always been a staunch republican, but I'm leaning that way, these days. I'm not saying I'll go there, yet, but I'm looking. I'm looking.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:29 PM

JKIDDO

The liberal left and the libertarian right have about the same issues with Obama. If you were to go to www.alternet.com you'd see an awful lot of grumbling and criticism. It's funny, because the way I read it, libertarians are pissed because they don't like government monkeying in business, and the left is pissed because they don't like business monkeying in government.

In any case, what I meant was... what can we do NOW? Seems like none of you have any suggestions.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:38 PM

BADKARMA00

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
The liberal left and the libertarian right have about the same issues with Obama. If you were to go to www.alternet.com you'd see an awful lot of grumbling and criticism. It's funny, because the way I read it, libertarians are pissed because they don't like government monkeying in business, and the left is pissed because they don't like business monkeying in government.

In any case, what I meant was... what can we do NOW? Seems like none of you have any suggestions.

----------------------

There's nothing to be done at the moment, except prepare for the next election cycle. If like minded people start organizing NOW, and work to get candidates on the ticket anywhere that the incumbent is weak, then they can effect change very effectively. That's not to say overnight.

One problem any such movement faces is that many of the elected are firmly entrenched in their home states. IF, however, a good organization can get enough folks from a solid third party effort into office, then the effectiveness of those entrenched politicos weakens, which, in turn, makes them weak. It's like a house of cards, or a line of dominoes.

The way to make things better is to make sure that the right people wind up in office. That takes hard, hard work, some money, though not the millions that are spent every year, IMO, ( not if handled right, anyway ) and rock solid organization.

The problem usually boils down to the hard, hard work. There just aren't enough people who care enough to get out there and do the grassroots work needed to turn the system around. Or on it's ear, if you prefer

Right now, IMO, there is no centrist party. Everyone, and every party, is extreme on one end or the other, really. A solid centrist party that can agree on a platform that appeals to the middle America that we all still believe is out there, will accomplish real change, that we can actually believe in.

Nowadays, though, if you have more than two people discussing the 'issues' you have an argument.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:15 PM

THUNDAR

The only way we can fix this is to vote out every incumbent in office. Republican, Democrat, Independant. All of them.

Serving in Washington was not supposed to be a life long career.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:21 PM

JKIDDO

Nah, There are some really good incumbents who haven't become the borg. Russ Feingold. Ron Paul.

I think the trick is to vote out the really bad ones.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:28 PM

THUNDAR

Exactly. That is the root of the problem and why we are in the situation we are. Everyone has their favorites or likes what pork their guy brings home. So they keep re electing them and they stay up there forever.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:32 PM

JKIDDO

There's another problem: Most people still think that hard decisions can be put off. They've bought into the myth that corporations are there to take care of you, you can cut taxes and still get service, the only thing that government is good at is waste and fraud, the system is fair, with hard work and a good idea ANYONE can get rich, greed is the only social contract we need to make.

Quote:
There has been no dramatic shift in Americans' view of Wall Street, big business or the role of government despite the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression, according to a wide-ranging Pew Research Center study of American values released Thursday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/despite_bad_economy_no_big_s
hift_in_values/print

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
The problem usually boils down to the hard, hard work. There just aren't enough people who care enough to get out there and do the grassroots work needed to turn the system around. Or on it's ear, if you prefer

Cause they're all too damn busy trying to survive under the heel of the governments rapacious taxes.

As for how to fix it, well I made a suggestion and I'll make it again, but you'd prolly need to legalise hemp again in order to have ENOUGH rope.

As for "voting" - BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Between measures that keep non-bought candidates off the ballots, in extremis even arresting them, as they did with Larouche, who is IMHO quite bonkers, but when Ramsey Clark called out the Gov on a complete and total abuse of the process that's something to make one stand up and take notice - and gerrymandering, plus the 12% "machine advantage" no one ELSE has the fucking balls to admit, and the secrecy and corruption of the electors, when are you people gonna realize that you're playing at the card sharpers table, in his house, with his marked deck ?

Do you really seriously think the powers that be would even abide by it if you somehow DID manage to get past all that crap, when even the US Constitution and the will of the people as a whole are meaningless to them and have been since 1861 ?

Do yourselves a fuckin favor and quit shovelling the "clap your hands if you BELIEVE" faerytales and start discussing shit that might actually WORK instead of wasting your time on idle fantasies designed to keep you occupied doing something OTHER than fixing the goddamn problem.

Or... you can just go on eating marie antoinette cake and pretend you don't see the strings.

You wanna get a look at the real, seedy underbelly of how american politics runs, get involved *locally* and you'll soon realize that train runs on only two tracks, force and deception.

Either one of those sound like a good, pleasant way to convince folk of your earnest intentions ?

You REALLY wanna send a message to your so-called-representative who in no way actually gives a rats ass about you or your stinking poor community ?

Get yourself a posse, a bucket of corn syrup and a large bag of feathers - along with a camera crew.

FUCK nice, it's too LATE for nice, it's six YEARS too late for nice - either start playin hardball or shut up and go home.

-DrunkenRageFrem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:19 PM

BADKARMA00

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
The problem usually boils down to the hard, hard work. There just aren't enough people who care enough to get out there and do the grassroots work needed to turn the system around. Or on it's ear, if you prefer

Cause they're all too damn busy trying to survive under the heel of the governments rapacious taxes.

As for how to fix it, well I made a suggestion and I'll make it again, but you'd prolly need to legalise hemp again in order to have ENOUGH rope.

As for "voting" - BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Between measures that keep non-bought candidates off the ballots, in extremis even arresting them, as they did with Larouche, who is IMHO quite bonkers, but when Ramsey Clark called out the Gov on a complete and total abuse of the process that's something to make one stand up and take notice - and gerrymandering, plus the 12% "machine advantage" no one ELSE has the fucking balls to admit, and the secrecy and corruption of the electors, when are you people gonna realize that you're playing at the card sharpers table, in his house, with his marked deck ?

Do you really seriously think the powers that be would even abide by it if you somehow DID manage to get past all that crap, when even the US Constitution and the will of the people as a whole are meaningless to them and have been since 1861 ?

Do yourselves a fuckin favor and quit shovelling the "clap your hands if you BELIEVE" faerytales and start discussing shit that might actually WORK instead of wasting your time on idle fantasies designed to keep you occupied doing something OTHER than fixing the goddamn problem.

Or... you can just go on eating marie antoinette cake and pretend you don't see the strings.

You wanna get a look at the real, seedy underbelly of how american politics runs, get involved *locally* and you'll soon realize that train runs on only two tracks, force and deception.

Either one of those sound like a good, pleasant way to convince folk of your earnest intentions ?

You REALLY wanna send a message to your so-called-representative who in no way actually gives a rats ass about you or your stinking poor community ?

Get yourself a posse, a bucket of corn syrup and a large bag of feathers - along with a camera crew.

FUCK nice, it's too LATE for nice, it's six YEARS too late for nice - either start playin hardball or shut up and go home.

-DrunkenRageFrem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

----------------------

*sigh*

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:10 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Thundar:
Exactly. That is the root of the problem and why we are in the situation we are. Everyone has their favorites or likes what pork their guy brings home. So they keep re electing them and they stay up there forever.

Yeah... that's really the heart of the problem. Once government becomes a process of carving up the spoils, matters of principle take a backseat. That's why the good ones are anomalies when the do manage to get elected. In a sense, their electorate are schmucks who've signed up for a losing game.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:18 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
It's funny, because the way I read it, libertarians are pissed because they don't like government monkeying in business, and the left is pissed because they don't like business monkeying in government.

I'm not sure what the Libertarian Party is about these days. Seems more or less infested with Republicans too embarrassed to admit they were neo-cons. But speaking for myself, and perhaps other small "l" libertarians, we don't like either sort of monkey business. The thing is, it can become a rather subtle thing sussing out which is which. Government interference in business is instantly swamped with lobbyists and influence peddling that starts to look an awful lot like business interfering with government.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Friday, May 22, 2009 2:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
To be entirely fair, Signy, Bush received more support for his bailout from Democrats than he did from Republicans. And Obama hasn't exactly reversed the trend.

How's about "Vote Libertarian"?

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

----------------

I've always been a staunch republican, but I'm leaning that way, these days. I'm not saying I'll go there, yet, but I'm looking. I'm looking.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

Funny - I've voted pretty staunchly Democrat, and I'm leaning that way, too. Maybe I'll meet you there, 'cause neither of our current parties are doing it for me...

ETA: Note I said "pretty staunchly" - for the record, I've never voted for a Clinton. Ever.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 22, 2009 2:20 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

How's about "Vote Libertarian"?

Hear, Hear.

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Friday, May 22, 2009 2:43 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

The question is: What can we do about it???

Move to somewhere where the socialism is overt, and as successful as socialism gets. England, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia. And I'm not being snarky, I mean it. Considering it myself...

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Friday, May 22, 2009 2:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But poor Ford. Ford is doing everything right. They’re keeping their dealerships, all of them. They’re trying to stay competitive by offering better products. They’re raising money the old-fashioned way. And they’re getting stiffed as Germany and the USA prop up GM’s corpse and tilt the playing field. It seems to me that if the Chrysler financing arm should go to anyone, it should go to Ford.

But...But...They're CAPITALISTS!!!!

Just kidding

I agree that Ford is getting the shaft, and they'll probably also suffer from not getting any fleet sales to the Feds, who now have their own auto companies.

Quote:
The question is: What can we do about it???

Buy a Ford (Fusion Hybrid looks promising), conserve energy, search for a - relatively - socially conscious health insurance company.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, May 22, 2009 5:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'll vote Peace & Freedom. Their message in more in tune with mine. That's what I did the last time when I couldn't stomach voting for Feinstein or Clinton.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, May 22, 2009 7:22 AM

BADKARMA00

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
To be entirely fair, Signy, Bush received more support for his bailout from Democrats than he did from Republicans. And Obama hasn't exactly reversed the trend.

How's about "Vote Libertarian"?

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

---------------

I've always been a staunch republican, but I'm leaning that way, these days. I'm not saying I'll go there, yet, but I'm looking. I'm looking.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

Funny - I've voted pretty staunchly Democrat, and I'm leaning that way, too. Maybe I'll meet you there, 'cause neither of our current parties are doing it for me...

ETA: Note I said "pretty staunchly" - for the record, I've never voted for a Clinton. Ever.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

----------------

Maybe we'll meet somewhere in the . . . well, not middle, obviously, lol. but yeah, maybe we will. You know, if more from each 'side' get fed up, and meet in another 'party', then we might just get that real change.

And wouldn't that be a hoot?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Friday, May 22, 2009 8:12 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

There's nothing to be done at the moment, except prepare for the next election cycle. If like minded people start organizing NOW, and work to get candidates on the ticket anywhere that the incumbent is weak, then they can effect change very effectively. That's not to say overnight.

Bingo! We have a winner!

Now, who wants to help take on a weak-ass incumbent here in Texas? I'm speaking, of course, of Governor Rick Perry - the man who wanted Texas to seceed and hired a creationist to head up the state's education board - and then went hat in hand BEGGING the federal government for flu vaccine (to fight a new strain of influenza that had evolved) and money to fight the outbreak. A man who is against government and against science goes running to - you guessed it - GOVERNMENT SCIENTISTS when the shit hits the fan on his southern border!

If he isn't weak now, he never will be. If Ron Paul had any real sense, he'd be running for Texas Governor. Sure, it's a figurehead position, utterly worthless for doing anything at all, UNLESS you're planning on running for higher national office. And yes, Ron Paul already holds a higher national office, but Texas Governor seemed to work out pretty well for that one guy who wasn't really from here... What was his name, again?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 22, 2009 8:18 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Maybe we'll meet somewhere in the . . . well, not middle, obviously, lol. but yeah, maybe we will. You know, if more from each 'side' get fed up, and meet in another 'party', then we might just get that real change.

And wouldn't that be a hoot?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

For a while now, I've been calling for the Libertarians to take over the Republican party from within. People like Rush and Cheney have made the party scarily uninhabitable to a great many of the "Reagan Republicans" who consider themselves mostly conservative, but not violently, virulently nationalistic. Recent polls show that 20% of Americans identify themselves as "Republican" in their party affiliation. That means there's a huge gulf within the party, a void that is going unanswered and unaddressed, and the heart of the party is up for grabs.

It's yours for the taking, if you can oust the hard-right neo-cons from their death-grip on the party's throat.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 22, 2009 10:24 AM

BADKARMA00

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Maybe we'll meet somewhere in the . . . well, not middle, obviously, lol. but yeah, maybe we will. You know, if more from each 'side' get fed up, and meet in another 'party', then we might just get that real change.

And wouldn't that be a hoot?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

For a while now, I've been calling for the Libertarians to take over the Republican party from within. People like Rush and Cheney have made the party scarily uninhabitable to a great many of the "Reagan Republicans" who consider themselves mostly conservative, but not violently, virulently nationalistic. Recent polls show that 20% of Americans identify themselves as "Republican" in their party affiliation. That means there's a huge gulf within the party, a void that is going unanswered and unaddressed, and the heart of the party is up for grabs.

It's yours for the taking, if you can oust the hard-right neo-cons from their death-grip on the party's throat.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

---------------

Honestly, I think the rhetoric on both sides has gone too far to save either party. It's going to take everyone from both sides who is fed all the way up, getting together and forcing a third party that has some real teeth to it.

And, at this point, I'd look long and hard at such a party. I've never said that before, but I'm saying it now. There are people in both parties who know how to exist together, and to compromise.

And that's what it comes down to in a nation of 300 million people. NO ONE is going to have everything their way, period. Ain't gonna happen.

THus, some of us have to be willing to lay aside that 'us against them' mentality, and work toward something better than what we have now. Both sides say they have a 'vision' of a better America. The problem is, IMO, that neither side realizes that NEITHER vision is right for all of America, and aren't willing to give an inch to make something that, while not perfect in any sense of the word, is still one hell of a lot better than what we've got.

It can't be all or nothing. It has to be give and take. If a serious third party organization ever emerges with that attitude, it will reshape politics in this nation for generations to come.

And I'm willing to bet for the better.

As always, though, that's just me. Or maybe, nowdays, it ain't just me anymore, huh?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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