Change you were dumb enough to believe in by 6ixStringJack

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

This "preventive detention" bullshit has me seething. I "hoped" for "change" - and got more of the same. Bush Lite.

This shit needs to be pushed, all the way to the Supreme Court if at all possible. Fuck the "threat" of these would-be terrorists; if they're dangerous enough to destroy America, we damned well ought to be able to try them on criminal charges. If we can't, what does it say about our system of law?

Fuck Abe Lincoln and his precedent of suspending habeas corpus. Fuck that "we are in a war" bullshit. Show me where Congress has declared war on any nation. The Constitution says that ONLY Congress has the power to declare war, and they haven't.

And THIS bullshit is EXACTLY why I was against it when Bush and Co. were pulling the exact same stunts. You let 'em do it when it's your guy doing it, and then you have to accept it when it's the NEXT guy doing it. That's why you don't let ANYBODY do it - 'cause once you give them the power, they'll never, EVER give it back.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:39 PM

By the way, you won't get a 3rd-party candidate in in four years, or even in eight.

But what you CAN do, if you're very, very good about it, is get one or two third-party people into some podunk do-nothing national offices in the next few years - and that will be all it takes. All you have to do is show EITHER party that they're being usurped from within by libertarians, and they'll actually sit down and start talking to AND LISTENING to those same libertarians. Politicians don't give a shit about you or me, but they definitely DO give a shit about votes, and they'll chase them anywhere.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Yeah... I agree with all of that except the "Bush Lite" thing.

Obama is Bush on stereroids.

He isn't vilified for all of the powers now at his disposal because it was "that a$$hole" that put them there, yet he himself uses them and apparently isn't only not going to repeal them, but he will expand them to limits we've never seen.

He was also the first president in (what will likely end up) 2 decades that actually officially won the presidency in a single day.... just a few hours to be exact. Those that loved him were high on the euphoria of change and those who feared him didn't even bother trying to drag the vote on for as long as possible because they knew that change was here.

By the time the Obama lovefest is officially over, he'll probably already have re-worked the legal framework around the Constitution such that he would be king.

Obama is Bush with blackface on. Only this time it REALLY ain't funny.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 23, 2009 3:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Allow me once again to point out that I called this in advance, chapter, verse and footnote.

And toldja all what to do about it even then.

I been holding my tongue as of late, yes, I did see that preventive detention bullshit, and all the rest, but since the best intervention points have already passed with most of the more useful folk hemming and hawing and makin excuses - and the freakin rethugs just sharpening their knives and biding their time instead of being a real opposition, whilst me and mine quietly saw the supports out from under em, there isn't much to do but follow a plan laid down well over twenty years ago when I saw this crap coming in the first place.

Especially with watching the powers that be play right into it, we're good on personnel and funding for a decade and more as it is, anything else is just gravy, especially with Justin getting back from down south and taking over day to day operations leaving me naught to do but watch and wait for the seeds I spent a lifetime planting to grow and blossom.

Btw Jack, the hellcamps are dead, dead, dead - most of them are now closed, bankrupted, and their primary intake centers and financial income source (Pathway Family Center) has been throttled into a deteriorating coma - the beast might take a while to die, but once you lop the head off, it's all but inevitable.

Only thing left to reccommend to folks with enough sense to see it coming is to suggest that they see to their own needs, and perhaps stock away some extra for those less fortunate because going it alone seriously sucks, and friends are good to have.

In the end, the powers that be are gonna hand me everything I need to hamstring em on a silver platter, without even realizing it - they've already handed me most of the hard-right, semi-racist types, who can be wound up and set to any activity imagineable by more or less prefacing it with "hey, look, he's BLACK!", meh heh heh...

Especially since this administration, via the MIAC report, has already tipped it's hand and expressed exactly what it regards them as.

Tsk tsk, it's all too easy, sometimes.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:59 AM

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste," chief of staff Rahm Emmanuel helpfully explained.

---------------

I actually found that quote the most intesting, since it's been HObamaman and his supporters who accused Bush of using the crisis of 9/11, and the fear it inspired, to make things happen.

Not so much change after all, is it?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:40 AM

WHOZIT

Barry should have waitted 8 years to run when times will be better. He's a "Photo-op Prez", he looks great, he sounds great, but Pelosi and Reid are the ones running things. Right now we need a Rudy Giuliani, someone who can really fix things. But instead with the help of his whores in the press we get President Photo-op. He's popular now, but like all "POP stars" people will get sick of him in time.

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:38 AM

America loves a winner!

I can't even watch that dude, Maddow. He's trying to mimic Olbermann so much, they're beginning to resemble each other. He can't utter 1 sentence w/ out lying, distorting or making shit up about anyone to the right of Joe Lieberman.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:40 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
but like all "POP stars" people will get sick of him in time.

He's a harvard educated law professor...?

Heads should roll

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:54 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Right now we need a Rudy Giuliani, someone who can really fix things.

Just when I start getting really fed-up with Obama, you remind my how bad it might have been. Thanks.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
but like all "POP stars" people will get sick of him in time.

He's a harvard educated law professor...?

The elites are proving how little worth they really are these days. Obama being a prime example.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Right now we need a Rudy Giuliani, someone who can really fix things.

Just when I start getting really fed-up with Obama, you remind my how bad it might have been. Thanks.

SergeantX

Right with ya, Sarge.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yeah really.

Although don't bust the guys chops for imitating Olberman, since they're BOTH actually bogarting style and even material from Edward R Murrow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow
Eddie had more class though, and McCarthy DID deserve it, just as these goons in our present do.

-F

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 9:47 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
The elites are proving...

Yeah, he fits better into that carricature.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I can't even watch that dude, Maddow. He's trying to mimic Olbermann so much...

Oh, I get it - Rachel Maddow is a "dude" because she's gay. Huh. Didn't realize your homophobia was so deeply entrenched.

Quote:
He can't utter 1 sentence w/ out lying, distorting or making shit up...

You've obviously got Maddow mixed up with Cheney.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:43 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I support indefinite detention and waterboarding of politicians, especially presidents.

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:03 PM

America loves a winner!

kwickie

Cite 1 lie that Cheney's said.

Just one.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:12 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

LOL.... supporting Rudy and defending Bush and Cheney is just as naive as being a rabid Obama supporter, even after he's shown himself for what he really is.

How is what he's doing today any different than what Bush did Rap? Besides the fact that he lied about everything to get elected, had popular support not seen in a president in a very long time, and now enjoys a filibuster-proof Democratic majority in congress.... oh, and the fact that he's black so anybody who says anything bad about him gets slapped with a hate crime.

Wake up brother. This is much deeper than a 2 party issue. Obama would just be another corrupt Senator working in Illinois, the most corrupt state in the union, if Bush hadn't HANDED all of this to him by doing such a horrible job, becoming one of the most hated presidents in history, and pissing all over the Constitution and every single one of us.

It almost seems too perfect to have been an accident that the Republicans lost.

We're screwed brother. We were either way.

Just you make sure you have the means to support you and yours when the shit really hits the fan. The FBI has been saying that what America needs is another 9/11. I guess allowing the first to happen when it could have been prevented didn't put a lasting enough impression on the people.

Maybe we just need bombs dropping all the time on civilian streets like in 1984 before a large majority of people live in the kind of fear daily it takes to make one feel that Bush did a good job and that Rudy would make a better president than Obama....?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
LOL.... supporting Rudy and defending Bush and Cheney is just as naive as being a rabid Obama supporter, even after he's shown himself for what he really is.

How is what he's doing today any different than what Bush did Rap? Besides the fact that he lied about everything to get elected, had popular support not seen in a president in a very long time, and now enjoys a filibuster-proof Democratic majority in congress.... oh, and the fact that he's black so anybody who says anything bad about him gets slapped with a hate crime.

Wake up brother. This is much deeper than a 2 party issue. Obama would just be another corrupt Senator working in Illinois, the most corrupt state in the union, if Bush hadn't HANDED all of this to him by doing such a horrible job, becoming one of the most hated presidents in history, and pissing all over the Constitution and every single one of us.

It almost seems too perfect to have been an accident that the Republicans lost.

We're screwed brother. We were either way.

Just you make sure you have the means to support you and yours when the shit really hits the fan. The FBI has been saying that what America needs is another 9/11. I guess allowing the first to happen when it could have been prevented didn't put a lasting enough impression on the people.

Maybe we just need bombs dropping all the time on civilian streets like in 1984 before a large majority of people live in the kind of fear daily it takes to make one feel that Bush did a good job and that Rudy would make a better president than Obama....?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

-----------------

I'm forced to agree with you, in that Bush is the most to blame for HObamaman being in the white house. I don't know that I've ever been so let down in someone as I am Bush 43.

He isn't half the man his father is.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 1:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
kwickie

Cite 1 lie that Cheney's said.

Just one.

Since you were obviously unable to keep up with the last thread where you asked this question, here it is yet again:

August 26, 2002: Cheney spoke to a the 103rd national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, where he stated unequivocally, "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Simply stated, there is now no doubt that Saddam indeed DID NOT have weapons of mass destruction as Cheney claimed.

You have no case.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 7:17 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
kwickie

Cite 1 lie that Cheney's said.

Just one.

Since you were obviously unable to keep up with the last thread where you asked this question, here it is yet again:

August 26, 2002: Cheney spoke to a the 103rd national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, where he stated unequivocally, "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Simply stated, there is now no doubt that Saddam indeed DID NOT have weapons of mass destruction as Cheney claimed.

Mike.

Was Cheney WRONG ? Maybe.

Was he LYING ? Did he absolutely KNOW there were no WMD, even though Intel had been saying Saddam had WMD for damn near a decade?

No, nothing you've posted suggests Cheney knew there were no WMD, but still made the claim anyways.

YOU have no case.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Monday, May 25, 2009 9:05 AM

No, he was lying because he stated categorically that Saddam definitely DID possess WMD at the time. That was a lie. He was wrong, and he is a liar. As are you.

As always, you have no case.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 9:27 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
No, he was lying because he stated categorically that Saddam definitely DID possess WMD at the time. That was a lie. He was wrong, and he is a liar. As are you.

As always, you have no case.

Mike

Being wrong isn't the same as lying. Seriously, how old are you? Five ? You sound like you're a five year old.

It's you who has no case. You've not shown where Cheney lied. Game over.

Quote:
"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Monday, May 25, 2009 10:00 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

To say that the evidence for WMD is very strong, is not a lie. To say that one is convinced based on this evidence is not a lie. But asserting that a factually incorrect statement is true WITHOUT DOUBT - MUST be a lie.

For Cheney not to be a liar based on this he must either be criminally foolish - having seen the evidence and drawing wrong conclusions with UTTER conviction; or, he must be slightly less foolish, and have been sold the lie by someone else.

Or else he is a liar, and had an agenda to lie. Perhaps he thought it was for the best(?).

But these are the only 3 options I believe.

Heads should roll

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Monday, May 25, 2009 10:51 AM

Quote:
Seriously, how old are you? Five ? You sound like you're a five year old.

Pretty funny, coming from the one person here who regularly looks to Mandy Moore for wisdom, and whose normal reply follows the "Yo mama" school of sophistication.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 3:16 PM

America loves a winner!

kpo - if Cheney is a liar, then so are Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, George Tenet, and countless others.

So, why are you focusing in on Cheney again?

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Monday, May 25, 2009 3:17 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Seriously, how old are you? Five ? You sound like you're a five year old.

Pretty funny, coming from the one person here who regularly looks to Mandy Moore for wisdom, and whose normal reply follows the "Yo mama" school of sophistication.

When have I ever "looked to Mandy Moore" for wisdom ?

What a strange thing for you to say.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Monday, May 25, 2009 3:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

When have I ever "looked to Mandy Moore" for wisdom ?

What a strange thing for you to say.

That's SOOOO funny.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
kpo - if Cheney is a liar, then so are Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, George Tenet, and countless others.

So, why are you focusing in on Cheney again?

The T.Rex they call JANE!

-----------------

I have to agree with this. Several top Demoncrats very loudly and clearly expounded that Saddam had WMD. If Cheney was lying, then it follows they were as well.

I don't really think any of them were lying. They all based their case on intelligence not only gathered by US agencies, but others as well.

And, when the dust settled, Saddam DID possess WMD compontents, including weaponized bio and chemical supplies. To my knowledge, however, they were not, at least at the time they were found, assembled.

I really don't know if they are, legally, considered WMD if they aren't assembled and ready to deploy. Nor do I know who would make that determination. The one with the bigger stick, I guess, as Frem might say.

Anyway, it is true that the top Dem's were just as loud and just as determined in their belief that Saddam had WMD. Several others, who I believe were taking a less political and more sensible approach, said only that he had the means to produce them.

The kicker here would be to know if everyone, Repub and Dem alike, knew that he had the components, or the where withal to manufacture them, when their statements were made, or if they in fact believed that he already had assembled, ready to deploy weaponry.

As always, we'll never really know the truth, one way or another.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 4:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

BK, yer lookin at it from the wrong end.

Turn it around and ponder this - what if the people who were supposed to find out that info, the ubiquitous alphabet boys, lied to all of the above, deliberately and with malice aforethought - Just like they BEEN doin for forty fekkin years!

Our representatives cannot "represent" us (not that they often do, mind) if the folks supposed to provide them with information either refuse to, or shovel a boatload of shit.

How many black projects over the years, for example, were committed without the knowledge, much less approval, of our reps ?

Or worse, (See Also: Carnivore) in direct defiance of multiple congressional edicts and laws supposed to forbid them ?

How can we the people, or our so called representatives, make any kind of logical decision when given no information or false information ?

While the politicians should catch their fair share of blame, what about the people who's job is to provide timely, accurate intelligence info, who instead provided a "sexed up" or "cooked" dossier to appease certain political interests, and yet they get a pass for that shit, once again not doing the job, or doing nasty backstabbing shit to the very people they're supposed to be at service to.

Me, I am damned sick of that, sick of the lies, treachery and social chaos caused by our so-called protectors fucking us over every chance they get, encouraging terrorism, moving drugs and every other damn nasty thing they've done and never been called on - they KNEW most of the info they were providing was bullshit, that's been their game ever since the cold war, and you should see some of the whoppers they passed off (See Also: Ivy Bells) back then in attempts to TRY to provoke a shooting war with the Soviets.

I'm not inclined to give our politicians a pass for being lying, ass covering dickheads, and gullible as hell besides for believing folk who've been lying through their teeth quite blatantly for forty years straight - but damned if I have ANY inclination to hand out passes to THEM fuckers neither, not when most of their lies lead to american blood on foreign soil, for "gains" that blow back on us and eventually cost even more.
(See Also: Operation Ajax)

So while we're wringin the necks of politicians about it, the alphabet boys should be right up there beside em, far as I am concerned.

-Frem

"The greatest threat to our national security...
is our National Security."

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Monday, May 25, 2009 6:10 PM

SERGEANTX

Frankly, I'm more worried about a politician who is wrong than one who lies. Anyone holding high office will know things they can't divulge, and will likely be put in positions where they have to lie.

Cheney was wrong, arrogantly and obstinately wrong. That's much worse in my book.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Monday, May 25, 2009 9:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
BK, yer lookin at it from the wrong end.

Turn it around and ponder this - what if the people who were supposed to find out that info, the ubiquitous alphabet boys, lied to all of the above, deliberately and with malice aforethought - Just like they BEEN doin for forty fekkin years!

Our representatives cannot "represent" us (not that they often do, mind) if the folks supposed to provide them with information either refuse to, or shovel a boatload of shit.

How many black projects over the years, for example, were committed without the knowledge, much less approval, of our reps ?

Or worse, (See Also: Carnivore) in direct defiance of multiple congressional edicts and laws supposed to forbid them ?

How can we the people, or our so called representatives, make any kind of logical decision when given no information or false information ?

While the politicians should catch their fair share of blame, what about the people who's job is to provide timely, accurate intelligence info, who instead provided a "sexed up" or "cooked" dossier to appease certain political interests, and yet they get a pass for that shit, once again not doing the job, or doing nasty backstabbing shit to the very people they're supposed to be at service to.

Me, I am damned sick of that, sick of the lies, treachery and social chaos caused by our so-called protectors fucking us over every chance they get, encouraging terrorism, moving drugs and every other damn nasty thing they've done and never been called on - they KNEW most of the info they were providing was bullshit, that's been their game ever since the cold war, and you should see some of the whoppers they passed off (See Also: Ivy Bells) back then in attempts to TRY to provoke a shooting war with the Soviets.

I'm not inclined to give our politicians a pass for being lying, ass covering dickheads, and gullible as hell besides for believing folk who've been lying through their teeth quite blatantly for forty years straight - but damned if I have ANY inclination to hand out passes to THEM fuckers neither, not when most of their lies lead to american blood on foreign soil, for "gains" that blow back on us and eventually cost even more.
(See Also: Operation Ajax)

So while we're wringin the necks of politicians about it, the alphabet boys should be right up there beside em, far as I am concerned.

-Frem

"The greatest threat to our national security...
is our National Security."

-----------------

That's true, Frem. I was just addressing the point about the politicos. There's always deceit in intel work. But don't forget, it's the politicos who make it a public spectacle, and use whatever they're told as a tool to advance their career.

I'd say there's plenty of blame to go around. It's a shame, really. We actually have a good system of government, (in that no system is perfect, but the framework for ours is about as close as anyone has come ). The problem, as I see it, is that the system has been so misused and abuse, it no longer resembles what the framers had in mind.

We need to tear it down to the frame, and start over again, just like people do to old houses that have been neglected for too long to refinish, but the foundation is still good.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 9:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Frankly, I'm more worried about a politician who is wrong than one who lies. Anyone holding high office will know things they can't divulge, and will likely be put in positions where they have to lie.

Cheney was wrong, arrogantly and obstinately wrong. That's much worse in my book.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

--------------

I don't follow your reasoning.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 11:11 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

When have I ever "looked to Mandy Moore" for wisdom ?

What a strange thing for you to say.

That's SOOOO funny.

Mike

That's not WISDOM, you clod , that's from SCRUBS. Where instead of laughing at something , her character would actually SAY " that's so funny ".

Check out the show. You need to laugh more.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:40 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
kpo - if Cheney is a liar, then so are Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, George Tenet, and countless others.

So, why are you focusing in on Cheney again?

The T.Rex they call JANE!

Heh.... Yep.

Now you're learning Rap!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Bush Lite.

Bush Dark?

Actually there are dramatic differences in policy. For example, Bush used Gitmo to house detainees in the ongoing effort to win the war and keep America safe. Obama will use Gitmo to house detainees in the ongoing effort to not lose the war and to keep his poll numbers safe.

Bush believed in no regulation, low taxes, and high spending. Obama believes in strict govt control of banks and industry, high taxes, and spending so high that it makes Bush's spending look low.

Bush Lite...no, Bush Dark...with a big smile and we can all feel good about him...because he's black and can talk.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Obama believes in strict govt control of banks and industry, high taxes, and spending so high that it makes Bush's spending look low.

Wow, what a fine example of blunt & inaccurate oversimplification.
I'm impressed!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:47 AM

Quote:
Bush believed in no regulation, low taxes, and high spending.

When you say "no regulation", I assume you're talking about no regulation for corporations, because Bush believed in regulating the everloving FUCK out of American citizens!

Also, his "low taxes" stance really only applied to the top 2%.

But you're right about his high spending habits.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Obama believes in strict govt control of banks and industry, high taxes, and spending so high that it makes Bush's spending look low.

Wow, what a fine example of blunt & inaccurate oversimplification.
I'm impressed!

I thought I pretty much summed up his economic policy.

Do you have a different opinion?

High taxes: He's raising taxes on everybody. Lets face it, they're talking about taxing soda and a middle class tax hike, the energy tax, a health care tax, etc.

Strict control of banks and industry: They are rewriting contracts, threatening executives, strongarming deals, bypassing bankruptsy laws, forcing banks to take money (with conditions), firing CEOs, etc.

Spending higher then Bush: Obama's first 100 days included more spending then Bush's six previous years combined.

It isn't oversimplified...its what happened and whats happening.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
When you say "no regulation", I assume you're talking about no regulation for corporations, because Bush believed in regulating the everloving FUCK out of American citizens!

Really? How so? Aside from security issues, regulation under Bush was pretty much the same as under Clinton.

Quote:

Also, his "low taxes" stance really only applied to the top 2%.

It applied to me...and I am not in the top 2%. My parents got a tax cut and some nice tax credits for my little sister...and they are not in the top 2%. Not to mention a lot of folks got jobs from folks in that top 2%, so they benefited too.

Quote:

But you're right about his high spending habits.

High spending? That's 20th Century thinking. Bush's spending was low by 21st Century numbers.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:00 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Hmm. Well I just watched the vid and rather than jump into the scrum with everyone about minutia (Cheney this, Obama that) I'll just offer a general observation about MSNBC.

This clip is a perfect example of how their network is an insult to journalism. The very way Madow opens her piece speaks volumes.

We begin tonight with a tale of 2 speeches, both from the same man, both from Obama. One speech that could have been billed as a ballad to the constitution, a proclimation of american values, a repuduation of the lawless behavior of the last presidential administration. And another speech: announcing a radical new claim of presidential power that is not afforded by the constitution and that has never been attempted in american history, even by George W Bush and Dick Cheney.

My god. This isn't just slant, this is a 90 degree sheerwall. Is this the kind of stuff MSNBC puts out daily? I never watch so I cannot know. She (or the network I should say, she's a mouthpiece) completely frames the discussion into biased confines with the very opening. I can see how less intelligent viewers would be swayed, it's just propaganda. Blind propaganda taken straight from the playbook of Goebbels.

Propaganda: The dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of people which stands opposite to the concept of impartially. Propaganda in its most basic sense proffers information primarily in order to influence an audience with selective facts to encourage a particular synthesis, or frames a subject pre-emptively, in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented.

Beyond the framing of the subject, she and our president Just--Keep--Reminding--Us about "Bush" and "Cheney". I wonder if this will work in 2012 when it will actually matter for them.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Do you have a different opinion?

Is that a question?

Quote:

High taxes: He's raising taxes on everybody. Lets face it, they're talking about taxing soda and a middle class tax hike, the energy tax, a health care tax, etc.

Bush taxed our troops. Thousands of American deaths & more civilians is a much higher tax than mere money, dude.

Quote:

Strict control of banks and industry: They are rewriting contracts, threatening executives, strongarming deals, bypassing bankruptsy laws, forcing banks to take money (with conditions), firing CEOs, etc.

And that's worse than letting them play fast & loose with our economy to get rich quick & let it all collapse exactly how? Just a pendulum- the other side of the coin.

Quote:

Spending higher then Bush: Obama's first 100 days included more spending then Bush's six previous years combined.

Bush was on the bailout wagon as well. He would have avoided spending what Obama has exactly... how?

No, Obama is not our saviour- he's a man with a BIG MESS on his hands thanks to Bush & Clinton.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:47 AM

Quote:
Aside from security issues, regulation under Bush was pretty much the same as under Clinton.

Gotta love that qualifier...

"Aside from that little incident, how was your trip to Dallas, Mrs. Kennedy?"

"Aside from that, how was the show tonight, Mrs. Lincoln?"

Yeah, ASIDE FROM the "security issues" like warrantless wiretaps, the Patriot Act, torture, doing away with habeas corpus... Aside from things like that, you'd hardly even notice the difference...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Bush taxed our troops. Thousands of American deaths & more civilians is a much higher tax than mere money, dude.

It's not even just that. Bush quite literally tried to charge the troops for the privilege of having their limbs blown off in his honor. In more than one case, people who were given sign-up bonuses were asked to give those bonuses back after their grievous injuries left them unable to fulfill their term of service. How's that for just plain heartless?

Also, many of the reserves were denied combat pay by dint of the way their deployment orders were written. The rules say that if you're deployed for more than 360 days (or one year), you're eligible for combat pay (which is a higher pay bracket). So the defense department "accidentally" wrote the deployments for 259 days. "Accidentally".

The treatment of the troops by the previous administration is an affront and a slap in the face to everyone who's ever served.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Gotta love that qualifier...

"Aside from that little incident, how was your trip to Dallas, Mrs. Kennedy?"

Yeah, ASIDE FROM the "security issues" like warrantless wiretaps, the Patriot Act, torture, doing away with habeas corpus... Aside from things like that, you'd hardly even notice the difference...

I added the qualifier because we were discussing the effects of business regulation. Security regulation had little effect on business except for delays or minor cost increases.

Who we listened to or whether we engaged in involuntary swimming classes for POWs had no meaningful effect on the mortgage industry which, up till last year, was laboring under the deregulation done in 1998 and 1999. Although I would consider that bad regulation rather then deregulation.

Deregulation says "do what you want". Thats not what we had. We had bad regulation "lend money to folks who can't pay you back". In effect we enacted a regulation that would prevent banks from having long term profit or viability. Very smart bankers saw this and developed the means for short term profits for the stockholders and high payments for themselves. Some people consider this dishonost on their part, but they were banks, not charities and businessmen, not priests. This was the ONLY way they could make money in their field under the regulations imposed on them.

In the case of the banks, we could have regulated less and done better.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The treatment of the troops by the previous administration is an affront and a slap in the face to everyone who's ever served.

I never hear that from the vets. Sure you get a couple here and there who say stuff like that...especially if they are running as Democrats, but the troops loved Bush and Cheney.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
We had bad regulation "lend money to folks who can't pay you back".

Cites and quote please. Back up your opinion with fact. Being a lawyer, it should be EASY for you to find the aforesaid "regulations". And if you can't find them....

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
We had bad regulation "lend money to folks who can't pay you back".
Cites and quote please. Back up your opinion with fact. Being a lawyer, it should be EASY for you to find the aforesaid "regulations". And if you can't find them....

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

Hehehehehehehhhhhh...

Good to see you around, Signy, even if only in a limited capacity.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:10 AM

BYTEMITE

On Cheney and the WMD: The intelligence he received about Saddam Hussein having WMD was wrong, yes. The lying part comes in when his intell then TOLD him the information was wrong, and he used it to build a case for war anyway.

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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 8:12 AM