A R-rated discussion of women's fashion... by chrisisall

High Heels first came about as a non-gender specific thing. I think the purpose for Women today is to make the legs look longer and more slender.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 5:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I think the purpose for Women today is to make the legs look longer and more slender.

Which also ties into the sexual thing.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Which also ties into the sexual thing.

Well there's the fact that Women aren't forced to wear them. Sometimes people do do stuff to be attractive to the opposite, or same, sex simply because they want to do so. That's true of Men as well as Women.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 5:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Well there's the fact that Women aren't forced to wear them.

Untrue, many offices here require high heels for females just as they require ties for the males.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I never comprehended any more use or value to the damned things than I do a necktie, or punching holes in your flesh to stick ornaments through it.

But then, as a personality ISTP - I generally expect people to make SENSE, and they mostly don't, which is an endless source of frustration.

Hell, I *still* haven't quite grasped any sense to the concept of personal decoration - makeup, tattoos, nails too long to do anything useful, etc etc.

So imma just pass this one with a shrug and a mutter, pffth, peoples...

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Untrue, many offices here require high heels for females just as they require ties for the males.

Ties are all about appearance as well. But I'm surprised that High Heels are a requirement.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

But then, as a personality ISTP - I generally expect people to make SENSE, and they mostly don't, which is an endless source of frustration.

Right with ya.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Well there's the fact that Women aren't forced to wear them.
Untrue, many offices here require high heels for females just as they require ties for the males.

Considering how unhealthy high heels are, I find this extremely difficult to believe. Heels in general.... maaaaybe, although I find it hard to believe that women aren't given the option of wearing appropriate flats and simply choose not to.

As for your question... Heels change a woman's stance, they change her sense of balance, her walk, the shape of her calves and butt, make her legs appear longer and make her taller. This is something many women enjoy. It adds sensuality to their day, be that every day or a special occasion.

Many also don't find heels comfortable and there are many who choose not to wear heels. It's not as strong a societal pressure as you think. It has a lot of to with priorities and choice: comfort vs. personal enjoyment of heels, etc.

Do women know heels have certain visual effects? Likely. Is this the only thing heels are about for women? No.

Do I think women should know how to walk in heels before they go out in them in public? Certainly. But many choose to wear them on special occasions, whether they are "out of practice" or not. Can't change that. They probably know they didn't have to wear heels. They chose to.

But to reduce women's choice to wear heels down to their effect on men ONLY is kind of sad and egocentric and leads to your sort of remarks about which women should and shouldn't wear heels, based on how sexually available they intend to be to men. If all you can think about is a rearward sexual encounter when you see a woman in high heels, then that's for you to deal with. It's probably not the main reason the woman is wearing those heels. So if "older" women of the white persuasion in heels make you nervous, take comfort in the thought that she likely doesn't care what they to do you, and only about what they do for her self-image, whether that image translates outward or not.

Consider bras. Sure. Plain bras do the job just fine. But many women enjoy wearing frilly bras, different colors, different fabrics, patterns, and not because some man might see their bra that day, but because of how the "prettier" bra makes them feel.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

As for your question... Heels change a woman's stance, they change her sense of balance, her walk, the shape of her calves and butt, make her legs appear longer and make her taller. This is something many women enjoy.

That makes her kind of a tease, don't it?

(kidding, kidding)

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Hell, I *still* haven't quite grasped any sense to the concept of personal decoration - makeup, tattoos, nails too long to do anything useful, etc etc.

Because it's fun? :) Why do we decorate anything? For most people, it's a form of self-love.

Obviously especially the makeup thing is sometimes taken way too far, and as a society we have a warped relationship with beauty.

But at its basis, decoration is a form of paying attention to yourself, personalization and visual interaction with the world. Tattoos, makeup, jewelry, costumes.. those things go back millenia and through all cultures. It's as irrational as anything we do. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:45 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Ties are all about appearance as well.

from State and Main:
" You should never trust anybody who wears a bow tie. Cravat's supposed to point down to accentuate the genitals. Why'd you wanna trust somebody whose tie points out to accentuate his ears? "

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

As for your question... Heels change a woman's stance, they change her sense of balance, her walk, the shape of her calves and butt, make her legs appear longer and make her taller. This is something many women enjoy.
That makes her kind of a tease, don't it?

(kidding, kidding)

Ultimately, women are quite genetically made up to tease, simply because their looks please more men than men please them. At some point, you have to stop assigning intent to their effect.

Actually.. that's sort of a serious thought. *eyes burkas and veils the world over*

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA

And of COURSE Yuriko *had* to add her two cents...

Apparently high heels have a slightly different connotation in Japanese society or did fairly recently, or something like that ?

So they can be/could be ?
Taken as a sign of empowerment or equality depending on relative cultural value, or at least that's what I am getting out of the verbal barrage here.

You mileage may vary - anyone ELSE know anythin about this ?
Preferably someone not being lectured in 2-3 languages about what jerks men are ?
(pidgin-english mixed liberally with mostly profane japanese isn't exactly conducive to my understanding a person here, mind you.)
And something about Sailor Mars, although heaven knows what she MEANS by this *rolling eyes and wincing*

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 6:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

But to reduce women's choice to wear heels down to their effect on men ONLY is kind of sad and egocentric and leads to your sort of remarks about which women should and shouldn't wear heels, based on how sexually available they intend to be to men.

I know this is more directed at Chris, but I'd thought I'd point out that when I said this:

Quote:
Sometimes people do do stuff to be attractive to the opposite, or same, sex simply because they want to do so. That's true of Men as well as Women.

I meant something more along these lines:

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Consider bras. Sure. Plain bras do the job just fine. But many women enjoy wearing frilly bras, different colors, different fabrics, patterns, and not because some man might see their bra that day, but because of how the "prettier" bra makes them feel.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 7:13 AM

I'll tell you what I don't get: wearing stilletos when you're walking your two yippy Chihuahuas. Isn't there, I dunno, a slippage factor to worry about?

I don't wear high heels, don't wear dresses, don't wear ridiculous undergarments (unornamented and functional, thanks), and don't really wear make-up. Except for concealer for the occassional acne outbreak, and only because skin blemishes are distracting when other people are trying to talk to you.

So I'm in the same boat you are, Chris, I really don't get a lot of the finer points of women's fashion. I like t-shirts and I like jeans and sneakers, and I see other women as being overly sexualized in their day-to-day.

My question is, why would other women want to feel pretty, and my conclusion is, subconciously, they want to feel like they're attractive. Which to me, also seems to mean that they're subconsciously trying to attract.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 7:38 AM

But then why do we put up pictures on our apartment walls? Why do we wrap presents? Why any color, anywhere, if grey can do the job?

Obviously, part of enjoying "pretty" things it to want to feel attractive, I like pleasing people with how I look the same way I enjoy being pleased by their looks. That's normal and not necessarly sexual, either.

But then, the fewest of people go around specifically NOT wanting to be attractive. Whether they enjoy extra decoration or not.

I like the playfulness of decoration. I don't wear dangly earrings because I think men or women will be attracted to them, I wear them because I love how the dangling feels and because it's fun to add something extra. I wear heels because it adds a swing to my hips that feels like dancing. I wear dresses because they're more comfortable than jeans. I wear "ridiculous" undergarments because they reflect my personality much better than plain white, unless I feel like wearing plain white. I wear necklaces because they're a comforting weight around my neck, and yes, I like how they enhance the sparkle in my eyes.

There is sexuality in there, and sensuality and wanting to be attractive, but no more so than for you wearing jeans and a t-shirt. More playfully, perhaps, and more elaborately, but not necessarily more artifical or more intentionally sexualized, unless you mean to imply that you are wearing what you enjoy because it is specifically UN-sexualized and makes you feel as neutral as an egg.

Sex is part of who women are, same as men, only it's so much more politicized with women, so much more judged. Too little, too much, everything must be unhealthy in some way. If they like pretty extras, they're a tease, or easy, or ridiculous, or overtly sexualized victims of society. If they don't, they're too manly, or insecure, or lesbians, or sexually suppressed.

And it's all very important that we cannot even UNDERSTAND why The Other Side would make the choices they do. Because we are obviously different.

There's so much judgment going around.

If I misread your post as more judgmental than you meant, I'm sorry for ranting at you, but you kinda struck a nerve with some of your word choices.

ETA: Ugh, I already feel sorry for ranting like that. I could have phrased things less heatedly than I did. I won't delete it, but I want to apologize for the tone. I don't want to turn this thread unfriendly. Sorry Bytemite and everyone.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 7:48 AM

No, that's pretty much what I'm implying. I become very uncomfortable if anyone ever expresses interest in me, and actively work to discourage that. It's what makes me happier and more comfortable in my day to day life.

I admit I don't wear all grey, but that's mostly because changing up colours day to day is more of a nod to certain necessities of hygiene.

My post comes from the perspective of someone not understanding that sexual side of women and men. As someone who pretty much identifies with the negative side of the two extremes of projected image you present. Which means, being on one extreme, I have trouble seeing the spectrum in between as not being the other extreme.

It's a deficiency, and so I'm trying to understand the other side and the in-between.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, that's pretty much what I'm implying. I become very uncomfortable if anyone ever expresses interest in me, and actively work to discourage that. It's what makes me happier and more comfortable in my day to day life.

I admit I don't wear all grey, but that's mostly because changing up colours day to day is more of a nod to certain necessities of hygiene.

My post comes from the perspective of someone not understanding that sexual side of women and men.

But if you deliberately work to discourage sexuality in your looks, do you really think you're in a neutral enough position to necessarily judge whether the majority of women are overtly sexualized, as you said?
Because, while your choices are perfectly okay and make you happy, your motivation probably only reflects a relative minority of people.

ETA:

Quote:
As someone who pretty much identifies with the negative side of the two extremes of projected image you present. Which means, being on one extreme, I have trouble seeing the spectrum in between as not being the other extreme.

It's a deficiency, and so I'm trying to understand the other side and the in-between.

Well, I doubt I'm equipped to try and change that, so I won't try. I just think that giving women (and men) the benefit of doubt before judging is a good way to go. We are social and sensual creatures, and sexuality floats in there in many varying degrees.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 8:03 AM

ANYTHING seems more sexualized than where I'm at. It might not be a fair assessment, but my position is such that it enables me to conclude that there is at least something sexualized in fashion.

People dress up to both look good and feel good, I can get behind that. Maybe there's something fun in that feel good part. But to whom are they looking good for, and why does it make them feel good? If they were looking good only for themselves, why would they tend to choose fashions that other people would agree looks good? Why not wander around in neon day-glow plaid and polka dots? That could make someone feel good, but can a person think they look good if they are fully aware that no one else thinks they do?

And I also ask this: how come the girls I know IRL are always trying to encourage me to dress up? They don't think I look good, and for some reason seem to think I'm not living up to some potential. What potential? What purpose? I see their dressing up as deliberate to attract men, every one of them who constantly harrass me on this subject are women I would consider boy crazy. And by boy crazy, I mean that they have expressed that they have a major preoccupation looking at/for men, desperately want to get married, and often have multiple relationships going on at one time.

Why is it not enough in our society to be presentable and unoffensive?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
People dress up to both look good and feel good, I can get behind that. Maybe there's something fun in that feel good part. But to whom are they looking good for, and why does it make them feel good? If they were looking good only for themselves, why would they tend to choose fashions that other people would agree looks good?

What we think looks good on us and what others do is often at least very similar. We share a cultural and a biological set of standards. We also share a databank of appropriate circumstances and within those lines, how we dress comes down to comfort.

I wouldn't leave the house in something I think looks hideous on me, even if others told me I look good, because I wouldn't feel comfortable. I also wouldn't leave the house in something entirely inappropriate because I enjoy getting positive attention from other people. Why do I like that? Because it makes me feel welcome and appreciated, boosts my self-esteem and my sense of belonging.

Quote:
Why not wander around in neon day-glow plaid and polka dots? That could make someone feel good, but can a person think they look good if they are fully aware that no one else thinks they do?

It's obviously complex.

Things like conformity with norms play into that. "Normal" dressing up or dressing down plays on a different level than non-conformist outfits, let alone actual costumes.

I'm sure someone out there is loving their neon day-glow plaid and polka dots out in public because the public disapproval stimulates their self-image as a rebel and they are comfortable with that.

Quote:

And I also ask this: how come the girls I know IRL are always trying to encourage me to dress up? They don't think I look good, and for some reason seem to think I'm not living up to some potential. What potential? What purpose? I see their dressing up as deliberate to attract boys, every one of them who constantly harrass me on this subject are women I would consider boy crazy. And by boy crazy, I mean that they have expressed that they have a major preoccupation looking at/for men, desperately want to get married, and often have multiple relationships going on at one time.

Why is it not enough in our society to be presentable and unoffensive?

Well, if they are badgering you like this they are obviously judgmental and kind of rude. They feel uncomfortable because you're not conforming to their standard, I reckon. I don't know how old you or those girls are, but teenagers and very young women are a chapter of their own, anyways. They're not every woman, certaily.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 8:55 AM

They're my age, mostly, but I do have a seven year old cousin and a five year old cousin who, relationship wise, are disturbingly precocious.

Remember that I live in Utah and am atheist. That may have some bearing on my perspective. Most everyone around me considers my lack of interest in relationships abnormal.

It also occurs to me that some Japanese fashion LOVES day glow and polka dots. There's just no winning!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Obviously, part of enjoying "pretty" things it to want to feel attractive, I like pleasing people with how I look the same way I enjoy being pleased by their looks. That's normal and not necessarly sexual, either.

Agent, we don't live in little vacuums, do we? If you dress a certain way, you have a certain effect on peeps around you. If I dress like a Klingon, should I NOT expect comments from Trekkies? Am I not specifically targeting them?
When a girl wears this:

should she NOT expect a multitude of stares & attention from interested honeybees?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I wouldn't leave the house in something I think looks hideous on me, even if others told me I look good, because I wouldn't feel comfortable.

OH.
A New Yorker.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:22 AM

My god, make it stop! The pants were already low ENOUGH!

*still atheist, some things are JUST THAT HORRIBLE*

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
They don't think I look good, and for some reason seem to think I'm not living up to some potential. What potential? What purpose? I see their dressing up as deliberate to attract men, every one of them who constantly harrass me on this subject are women I would consider boy crazy.

Yep.
In my experience, any boy worth anything will see your beauty without all the frills.
Once you target such a dude, and see his soul as righteous, THEN you can pull out the stops to thrill him that little extra.
THEN it's just for fun. IMHO.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
My god, make it stop! The pants were already low ENOUGH!

THANK YOU!
How come a "plumber's crack" is a source of jokes, but girls are actively striving for that look?

It just strikes me that were I a female, I would NOT wear tissue-paper thin garments, restricting footwear, or pants that limit my mobility! That's like, YO bad peeps, I'm vulnerable now!!
But I do tend to look at situations from a martial arts perspective...

BTW, my Wife agrees with me, and she's no sockpuppet! She thinks you can gorram well look fine & sexy without pain. Heck, this looks great & still, no wedgies, painfully high heels, or underwear showing:

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:43 AM

I get laughed at whenever I roll my cuffs. But my pants are too long and I have no sewing skills to speak of, if the hem drags on the ground they'll get worn out.

Why is practical an object of scorn?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Obviously, part of enjoying "pretty" things it to want to feel attractive, I like pleasing people with how I look the same way I enjoy being pleased by their looks. That's normal and not necessarly sexual, either.

Agent, we don't live in little vacuums, do we? If you dress a certain way, you have a certain effect on peeps around you. If I dress like a Klingon, should I NOT expect comments from Trekkies? Am I not specifically targeting them?
When a girl wears this:

should she NOT expect a multitude of stares & attention from interested honeybees?

Did the lady in the picture catch you staring and complain?

I never said we live in a vaccuum. Or that no one ever dresses specifically with sexual attraction in mind. If you thought I had said that, you are wrong.

I don't know where this woman wore the pants, how much she corresponded with the norm of dressing there, etc. etc. It's very likely she had it on her mind to attract other people. Or maybe she's 14 and all her friends are wearing these and she's enjoying the fact that she has the figure to wear pants like that and doesn't consider it worse than wearing a swimsuit at the beach.

Either way, she'll have to deal with how people react. If the comments are disrespectful, though, she'll be right to be offended.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I wouldn't leave the house in something I think looks hideous on me, even if others told me I look good, because I wouldn't feel comfortable.

OH.
A New Yorker.

What's that supposed to mean?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I wouldn't leave the house in something I think looks hideous on me, even if others told me I look good, because I wouldn't feel comfortable.

OH.
A New Yorker.

What's that supposed to mean?

I come from New York, and MANY peeps there have precisely that attitude. A character on Saturday Night Live used to say, "It is better to look good, than to feel good."
I was making a little joke.
"Extremely little, Ensign."

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Why is practical an object of scorn?

Because in this country of rugged individualism, non-comformity make peeps nervous.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:24 AM

Here, if you must have a little altitude (as my Wife sometimes does- she's a 5'1" latina babe), something like these at least offers some stability & protection:

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Did the lady in the picture catch you staring and complain?

She turned to me, asked "What the Hell are you taking pictures of me for??", and stepped forward suddenly, attempting to grab my camera out of my hand- but her first step was so long that her pants tore right down to the crotch & she had to hold them together with both hands, buying me my escape time.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

But to reduce women's choice to wear heels down to their effect on men ONLY is kind of sad and egocentric

Seriously though, Agent, I can't tell you how many times working with the public as I do, that young women have come up to me in push-up bras, belly shirts & high heels TOTALLY averting their eyes from me as they talked as if embarrassed by what they were showing off. If you want to be showy, you should at least enjoy the power you're wielding, if not, then dressing like that is just conforming to an uncomfortable status quo to gain peer acceptance & a false sense of societal security, IMO.
Am I wrong here?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Here, if you must have a little altitude (as my Wife sometimes does- she's a 5'1" latina babe), something like these at least offers some stability & protection:

FMBs

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
If you want to be showy, you should at least enjoy the power you're wielding, if not, then dressing like that is just conforming to an uncomfortable status quo to gain peer acceptance & a false sense of societal security, IMO.
Am I wrong here?

Is that not their right?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 11:57 AM

Sure, but you kind of hope that they'll realize that letting society dictate their every choice maybe isn't the best way to live.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Is that not their right?

Of COURSE. I'm just speaking as an observer that would like to see all people restricted by societal norms released from bondage, whether it be painful pumps or Burkas.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Sure, but you kind of hope that they'll realize that letting society dictate their every choice maybe isn't the best way to live.

I DOES drive the economy to an extent, though.
Think of it Byte, less fabric, same prices, peer acceptance, visible skin & underwear for horny adolescents- it's a win for everyone!

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I wouldn't leave the house in something I think looks hideous on me, even if others told me I look good, because I wouldn't feel comfortable.

OH.
A New Yorker.

What's that supposed to mean?

I come from New York, and MANY peeps there have precisely that attitude. A character on Saturday Night Live used to say, "It is better to look good, than to feel good."
I was making a little joke.
"Extremely little, Ensign."

That's only assuming that I would leave the house in something uncomfortable, though.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 12:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA

A most fascinating and informative discussion indeed!

Thank you both Agent R and Byte, for offering fundamental understandings of viewpoints on the matter in an honest manner, something rare enough to be worth a comment when it comes to this stuff.

I myself tend toward non-decoration, save for using style as either intimidation or protective camouflage, so I fully comprehend it from that end, and via the discussion here see at least some of the concept behind the other.

I must admit though, it's quite disconcerting to hear my own feelings on the matter from a female perspective, even more so from someone with an already comparable outlook on other topics.

"on any other day, that might seem strange..."
Con Air: Cameron Poe.

That whole mating-dance-but-let's-pretend-it-ain't stuff annoys me too, mostly cause the inherent dishonesty of it.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously though, Agent, I can't tell you how many times working with the public as I do, that young women have come up to me in push-up bras, belly shirts & high heels TOTALLY averting their eyes from me as they talked as if embarrassed by what they were showing off. If you want to be showy, you should at least enjoy the power you're wielding, if not, then dressing like that is just conforming to an uncomfortable status quo to gain peer acceptance & a false sense of societal security, IMO.
Am I wrong here?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. People wearing things they aren't comfortable with.. that's obviously kind of sad. That doesn't really have very much to do with the quote you replied to, though, where I said that "What will men think?" is not the first and only factor in how women dress.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

People wearing things they aren't comfortable with.. that's obviously kind of sad.

Well, I'm saying that if you're dressing a certain way for a reason YOU choose, then fine. But if you're dressing a certain way to please others that you do not necessarily WANT to please, you're conforming to others ideas of how you should appear, and that seems wrong to me.
On another note, in thread in the past, many responses I got indicated a strong belief that women dressed up for other women, as a kind of impress/competitive thing. You go 50% all out, a man will still respond, the extra 50% is not for them, or so I was told. So yeah, what will men think is not the first idea, but it's not your friends that you'll likely end up dating.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Thank you both Agent R and Byte, for offering fundamental understandings of viewpoints on the matter in an honest manner, something rare enough to be worth a comment when it comes to this stuff.

Seconded.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

People wearing things they aren't comfortable with.. that's obviously kind of sad.
Well, I'm saying that if you're dressing a certain way for a reason YOU choose, then fine. But if you're dressing a certain way to please others that you do not necessarily WANT to please, you're conforming to others ideas of how you should appear, and that seems wrong to me.

That is true. Like if older women want to wear heels but don't because they feel they should please you by leaving them to hookers and women out to "Wow" a man?

Quote:
[]
On another note, in thread in the past, many responses I got indicated a strong belief that women dressed up for other women, as a kind of impress/competitive thing. You go 50% all out, a man will still respond, the extra 50% is not for them, or so I was told. So yeah, what will men think is not the first idea, but it's not your friends that you'll likely end up dating.

Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

As I said, being considered attractive is not necessarily a sexual thing but a social thing, and I find it very credible that the opinion of other women would matter a lot to a woman. Who to better understand and appreciate? Most of the compliments I get about new dresses or my hair come from my female colleagues at the office and I love that. We tell each other when we look nice because it's friendly and a kind of bonding. With men, I don't generally need them to tell me that they think I look nice, it's easy to pick up, though sometimes they do, and that's friendly as well.

As for the dating thing, if a guy is bothered by how a woman chooses to dress, he may just not be the right guy for her and has been effectively weeded out, right? Win-win.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:50 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Why is it not enough in our society to be presentable and unoffensive?

I think style is for projecting yourself and your personality outwards, and is an art form.

Clothes began as functional items but I think we have evolved a sense of style because we all want to understand, and be understood by others - and this as I say is one more way to project ourselves. We feel satisfied when we do it effectively, and of course certain members of the opposite sex would find it atractive because the warmth of personality is immediately apparent.

But it's definitely about finding your own style - and I believe one will generally attract the right kind of person this way (friends, not just partners), those that are compatible with the personality you are projecting - if that makes sense.

Heads should roll

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 1:56 PM

BTW, I'm not against dressing up- once my Wife & I went to Manhattan to do the town, & she wore something very much like this:

But it was for ME, not comfort, that she wore it (a fact I'm still grateful for to this very moment- what an intoxicating day

), and looks from other guys mattered not since she was safe with her boyfriend.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

That is true. Like if older women want to wear heels but don't because they feel they should please you by leaving them to hookers and women out to "Wow" a man?

Maybe I've not made myself clear; it's not about what I want, it's about what the person choosing to wear or not wear a certain societally accepted accoutrement wants. If someone likes tripping about in heels, more power to them.

Quote:

Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

As I said, being considered attractive is not necessarily a sexual thing but a social thing,

But the sexual thing is inextricably intertwined- and why does skin showing & bright colours fly with women's fashions and not with men's?
Why don't peeps generally resopond favourably to men dressing like THIS at society functions?

Take sexuality out of the fabric & footwear equation, & we'd all be dressing like this:

Which, BTW, is not at all a bad look!

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 6, 2009 2:13 PM