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Originally posted by kpo:

I think style is for projecting yourself and your personality outwards, and is an art form.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Why don't peeps generally resopond favourably to men dressing like THIS at society functions?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just. Freaky.

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leavin me feelin a bit superfluous when someone else done made my argument for me.
(HKCavalier is kinda notorious for this)

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attributed "beauty" to a body-form I consider to be downright unhealthy and therefore repulsive to me - no matter how attractive THEY think they might be, MY first response would be tryin to feed them, ha!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay, my Wife just informed me that my words here *may* be interpreted as coming off as somewhat sexist (a little smackdown from my better half is always welcome as it usually brings enlightenment), and if that's the case, I have to say it was not my intention; I started this thread to genuinely explore the frustrations inherent in female attire perpetrated upon us by the media & our fellow fashion victims.

But she's still a babe!

*ducks*

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Are you ladies aware of this?
Are you okay with it?

Ideas on this? I'm especially interested in hearing from the female contingent of this board.

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Originally posted by 2by2gingerblue:

Heels were not gender specific when first invented, but the higher they got they discovered that they enhanced all the right parts of a Woman that attracted a Man.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

I am raising a daughter who likes to play make-up so she can be beautiful. It doesn't matter how many times I tell her she is more beautiful without it. She has 100 million people telling her otherwise.

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Heels were not gender specific when first invented, but the higher they got they discovered that they enhanced all the right parts of a Woman that attracted a Man.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
case in point: Summer as River in Objects in Space, watchin her move just sets off all kinds of happy noise in the back of my brain where the caveman lives.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Much of the discomfort at seeing a woman in a feminine business suit might come from the artificial inability to allow intelligence and femininity in the same space.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
...

...Nice dress. And you know, he actually does look good in it.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Much of the discomfort at seeing a woman in a feminine business suit might come from the artificial inability to allow intelligence and femininity in the same space.

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I have no issues with women in suits. As long as they're comfortable in them.

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And skirt suits, without fail, tend to be designed to fall under the above descriptors. If a woman wears a pant suit, its a target for mockery.

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All of this clothing to make a statement, to define yourself, it's all REALLY intended to force you to meet some manner of social conformity.

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And sometimes, when that can't happen, or often, when people are working hard at this but becoming more frustrated, slowly this frustration can manifest into very strange ways of acting out. Hurting people. Hurting yourself. Disturbing fetishism of what can and can't be had, all pushed and pressured by an overly repressed culture that at the same time is UTTERLY obsessed with sex.

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Originally posted by kpo:

With pant suits, there's a legitimate tomboyish style I see in women detectives on TV, and I don't know, perhaps other softer styles that still aren't 'girly'.

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I'm sure someone out there is loving their neon day-glow plaid and polka dots out in public because the public disapproval stimulates their self-image as a rebel and they are comfortable with that.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Why is there a double standard between "functional and drab" being acceptable for men, and not women?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
An average man has just as much control over their urges as a woman. The myth otherwise is just a justification

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
It started out so promising and then it delved deep into homotown.

Let's bring it back to and R-rated discussion of "Woman's" fashion, mmmmmmm kay?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Also, gender-role as assigned to clothing is at best, stupid anyways, since while most men have no issue with a girl wearing "male" clothing, even think it cute - it's completely hypocritical to then take issue with a guy wearing "female" attire, isn't it now ?

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My argument with that take, kpo, is to ask why there is an expectation for women to wear "feminine" clothes, what "feminine" entails, and if women's clothing aren't JUST functional and drab, then what are they? What does not being functional and not being drab MEAN? What are the societal repercussions of women's clothing not being functional or drab?

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Why is there a double standard between "functional and drab" being acceptable for men, and not women?

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Why is there a social stigma against men who dress flamboyantly?

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And why does it all matter in a social interaction/positive impression/self image sense?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
An average man has just as much control over their urges as a woman. The myth otherwise is just a justification
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Absolutely true.

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:
There are culture differences to consider here as well (even within the same country).
"Almost French" is about an Australian woman living in Paris with her French husband. She used to run to the local market in her warm-ups, much to the chagrin of her husband. "I thought you'd be ok with me dressing *plain* in public?" "No! You have to think of them, to give them pleasure in how you look. It is rude to others to dress your way." Husbands encouraging their spouses to dress up to please others is not the typical American male thought process.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Men get erections all the time from what I understand: how often do you ACT on them? (I don't expect you to answer that, not generally or in a specific sense, it's completely rhetorical)

Just because men display a more obvious, outward sign of their urges doesn't mean they have less control over their urges. And sometimes the reaction isn't even related to anything sexual, it just happens.

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Originally posted by kpo:
You're asking a lot of questions here - I can answer all of them but I'm not sure you want me too... basically in some ways I guess you understand and view the world completely differently to me. But I'll try to justify and explain my view, and perhaps you can say where exactly you disagree:

Femininity is a real and natural thing, it describes the ways in which a typical female brain is different to a typical male brain (we debated gender psychology in a thread not long ago remember? I explained my position more fully there). Anyway I think femininity is primarily a state of mind (though you can also talk about feminine physical features), and it can be projected outwards by a person through actions, mannerisms, voice, dress, etc. How? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and human beings have learned to read personality in a person's appearance and actions - it's how love at first sight can be explained, imo.

Not all women are feminine though, and I didn't voice any expectation for them to act/dress as such - only to be true to themselves, and find their own style.

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Well I don't recall supporting this 'double standard' myself - I think men should have style as well, but I do think it's more important for women as there are different roles for acquiring a mate. I'm suggesting that women's psychology is defined to a large extent by their reproductive role: they have to advertise their youth/fertility, therefore men are more visibly stimulated, therefore female psychology has evolved to have a lot of care for appearance.

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I'm not going to defend social stigmas, but they're understandable - men and women not acting to type, confuses and confounds some people with cosy and over-simple, views of what men and women ought to be - with no allowance for natural variation in hormone levels (which can make women more like men in their psychology, and vice versa), or other psychological phenomena.

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I think I've answered this - so long as you agree that personality can actually be expressed in clothing - if you agree with that, then you can see why I consider fashion an art form?

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Originally posted by kpo:
Hmm. In terms of arousal would you agree with the assessment that men are like gas cookers, and women electric? Men turn on/off faster. So many things contribute to human 'urges' (hormone levels etc.), it seems odd to me to think they would be equivalent in men and women.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
And judging by some of my friends, they can feel urges just as often and every bit as intense as you guys.

We're talking about control. Saying men can't control themselves (or can't control themselves as much as women) is not only unfair to men, it's irresponsible.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Men get erections all the time from what I understand:

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Hmm. In terms of arousal would you agree with the assessment that men are like gas cookers, and women electric? Men turn on/off faster. So many things contribute to human 'urges' (hormone levels etc.), it seems odd to me to think they would be equivalent in men and women.

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Women don't have fewer sex hormones or lower levels. Just different ones. And judging by some of my friends, they can feel urges just as often and every bit as intense as you guys.

We're talking about control. Saying men can't control themselves (or can't control themselves as much as women) is not only unfair to men, it's irresponsible. It gives them an excuse to not control their urges when maybe they should, like, for example, if it would hurt someone.

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but intelligence and various skill sets? Those are very complicated.

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And like you said, not all females are feminine. Saying unfeminine females are acting unnaturally is... hurtful to the unfeminine females.

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Reproductively speaking, virility is just as important as fertility. And appearance is fairly important to women when selecting a mate, too.

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I will compromise by saying that it is not the fault of the less gender-bendy, that it is no one's fault, but rather subconscious/socially driven.

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If you buy a painting, are you expressing your own personality and conceptions, or the artist's?

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I suppose if a person made their own clothes, but unless the clothing is utterly featureless and generic, then they would still seem to by necessity have to conform to an existing style, which was invented by someone else.

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isn't there an easier, less confusing, less misleading way to advertise personality than relying on clothing?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Very good point on culture, I wouldn't mind hearing more examples of cultures both more tolerant and less tolerant of how a person chooses to dress.

There's a "look at what I have!" vibe I'm getting from the French husband that I find almost as disturbing as the "MINE!" mentality I see in other places...

Either that, or it's really pretentious and mean-spirited (i.e. "Look at what she's wearing! *snicker snicker*"). I'm not sure which it is.

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I can appreciate art, or writing, or a song, even enjoy it an look forward to what next installment the creator might offer, but nothing really speaks FOR me. Clothing even less so.

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isn't there an easier, less confusing, less misleading way to advertise personality than relying on clothing?

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I guess I just don't like the idea of a role, because a role can be limiting. I don't like the idea of a woman having to depend on a man, or a man having to depend on a woman. I guess I just don't see codependency as such a good thing.

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