Voters steer Europe to the right by Geezer

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ha Ha Ha! You Brits and your funny ways! LOL!

Ahh, does the far right lunatic not like being wrong. As someone who was 'educated' by the US public school system you should be used to that by now .

Far right? Who me? Sorry, you have me confused with Auraptor. So sorry he's not around to give you the time of day anymore, but I will continue to come here occasionally just to fuck with YOU, because you are truly a sad sack of bullshit and deserve it.

You are starting to sound like him

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

It seems as though Jongsy is trying to fill those oversized clown shoes that Rappy was always flopping around in. It's funny, because he's even worse at it than Rappy was, and that's no small feat!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 1:21 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
It seems as though Jongsy is trying to fill those oversized clown shoes that Rappy was always flopping around in. It's funny, because he's even worse at it than Rappy was, and that's no small feat!

Mike

Jongstraw is painting a masterpiece and you clowns are his canvas. He's just sowing the seeds of anarchy so that when all of the conservatives are gone, we can sit back and watch all of you idiots turn on each other. It will be especially hilarious when you get in your first debate with Citizen, because unlike AuRaptor, he won't pull his punches and leave you standing out of pity for your obvious mental deficiencies.

Keep up the good work Jongstraw, I believe I'll be taking the AuRaptor route myself.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 2:11 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I noticed that none of the right-wingers here had anything substantive to say about health care, with the exception of Bluesun and Fivver.

So, your contributions here... such as they are... will not be missed.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:
He's just sowing the seeds of anarchy

No he's not, he's just spreading chaos to take advantage of, spreading misery under the guise of wanting to fix it, just like any authoritarian.

Sowing the seeds of Anarchy is MY job, and I happen to be damned good at it, thankeeverramuch.

Of course, for that to make sense to folk, they'd have to comprehend what Anarchy really IS, and most folk, they don't.

-F

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 2:36 PM

Quote:
It will be especially hilarious when you get in your first debate with Citizen, because unlike AuRaptor, he won't pull his punches and leave you standing out of pity for your obvious mental deficiencies.

That's some funny stuff right there, Kirk. AwwCrapper never had any punches to pull, just a few lazy and ineffectual attempts that were easily counterpunched for a quick knockout.

As for Citizen and I debating, we have, several times. We're in agreement on much, and in disagreement on a few things, and we try to talk about the things we disagree on. Often, it works.

If it's the seeds of anarchy we seek, we'll look to Fremdfirma, our resident expert, because whether you agree with his views or not, he definitely brings his A-game to the table when he's got a point to make.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 3:52 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
It seems as though Jongsy is trying to fill those oversized clown shoes that Rappy was always flopping around in. It's funny, because he's even worse at it than Rappy was, and that's no small feat!

Mike

Jongstraw is painting a masterpiece and you clowns are his canvas. He's just sowing the seeds of anarchy so that when all of the conservatives are gone, we can sit back and watch all of you idiots turn on each other. It will be especially hilarious when you get in your first debate with Citizen, because unlike AuRaptor, he won't pull his punches and leave you standing out of pity for your obvious mental deficiencies.

Keep up the good work Jongstraw, I believe I'll be taking the AuRaptor route myself.

Thanks Kirkules (rhymes with Hercules) for the sentiments. They're all going nuts because their raison d'etre Auraptor has left their pathetic little lives. I gave them a small taste of the sweet hate they crave as an act of charity and kindness, as they go through the anguish of their own personal Auraptor withdrawl. It also provides a fun and therapeutic way for me to convey to them my own beliefs and feelings of disgust and contempt for the mis-guided and ultra-naive liberal lemmings of leftist lunacy. There's very few left here willing to even occasionally challenge their embedded-stick-up-their-pee-goo, hate-everything traditional outlook and attitude, so perhaps reconsider leaving. Signy & Rue made a big splash about leaving too, and they did.....well not actually, as they were back at their insult/hate response machine almost immediately. They couldn't possibly pass up the last few chances they were gonna have with Auraptor, so they came back. Kinda like Britney Spears and Anna Nicole Smith always coming back on CNN. You know it's a train wreck, but you look anyhow.

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Tuesday, June 9, 2009 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

They're all going nuts because their raison d'etre Auraptor has left their pathetic little lives. I gave them a small taste of the sweet hate they crave as an act of charity and kindness, as they go through the anguish of their own personal Auraptor withdrawl. It also provides a fun and therapeutic way for me to convey to them my own beliefs and feelings of disgust and contempt for the mis-guided and ultra-naive liberal lemmings of leftist lunacy. There's very few left here willing to even occasionally challenge their embedded-stick-up-their-pee-goo, hate-everything traditional outlook and attitude, so perhaps reconsider leaving. Signy & Rue made a big splash about leaving too, and they did.....well not actually, as they were back at their insult/hate response machine almost immediately. They couldn't possibly pass up the last few chances they were gonna have with Auraptor, so they came back. Kinda like Britney Spears and Anna Nicole Smith always coming back on CNN. You know it's a train wreck, but you look anyhow.

You mean all you right-wingnuts are going nuts because your poster boy AwwCrapper has left your pathetic little lives. We give you a small taste of the sweet hate you crave as an act of charity and kindness as you go through the anguish of your own personal AwwCrapper withdrawal. It also provides a fun and therapeutic way for us to convey to you our own beliefs and feelings of disgust and contempt for you misguided and ultra-naive rightwing lemmings of fascist neo-con idiocy.

And if you'll look back at the post ("Learned a lot, thanks, 'bye for now!" was the title, I believe, if it helps you find it), you'll see that both Rue and Signy said they'd be spending LESS time here, they'd be checking in LESS often.

I'll save you searching for it; here's the link to the thread, since I'm sure you won't take my word for it:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=38401

Oh, hell, here's Signy's exact words:

Quote:
Just to let you know, I'll be checking in from time to time but posting a lot less.

To which Rue replied, and I quote:

Quote:
Strange, I had just come to the same place myself.

So while you continue to hold the Crapper up as some sort of hard-right fascist demigod, you seem to be the only one who really admires and worships that sort of thing, Jongsy. Look around; the rest of us aren't laughing WITH you; we're laughing AT you.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:58 AM

PARTICIPANT

The BNP = Racist?

http://djkonservo.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/the-bnp-exposed/

THIS chilling picture shows BNP deputy leader Simon Darby being given a NAZI SALUTE at a fascist rally.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/

Three extremists flashed the banned Hitler-style sign to the British far-right boss outside the event in Italy.

The Austrian MEP runs a newspaper, renowned for spouting racist, xenophonic and anti-Semitic views.

Republic Leader of the far-right National Party (Narodni Strana), which has its own paramilitary squad, Petra Edelmannova was the brains behind a racist TV ad aired in the Czech Republic last month which called for a "final solution" to the issue of gipsies in her country.

In the broadcast, accompanied by the slogan "Stop Favouring Gipsies", she stresses the case for "repatriating the Czech Republic's entire Roma community to India".

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/angry-europe-embraces-the-fr
inge/article1174097/

In a startling flight to the fringes, the European Union's 490-million citizens sent an amazing range of angry, racist, anti-European, anti-immigrant, separatist, protest and far-right parties and candidates to represent them in Brussels, a ragtag protest vote that now represents more than 16 per cent of the European Parliament.

British veterans of Spanish Civil War warn over rise of BNP
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6465079.ece

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Can you address the body of my post or Grant Shapps' speech to the house of commons?
I did. Try reading it.

And here I thought I was rebutting Citizen. Have you 2 merged into one essence Signy? Or can you no longer tell the far right community member from the libertarian?

Yes...I know. To an anti-capitalist we must surely look the same.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:54 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Or can you no longer tell the far right community member from the libertarian?

AFA your collective attitudes towards corporations: Yep, you both look pretty much the same to me.

But yanno, this IS an open forum, and I didn't know that I was prohibited from responding to your posts (or perhaps you would like me to be prohibited?). So I addressed your post about "accountability" with horror stories from private corporations, which go out of their way to obscure responsibility for negligence by creating a half-dozen interlocking shell companies. Is that any better?

As I said before, it's always possible to come up with individual stories about one thing or another and individual gripes about one thing and another. I guarantee- you come up with one about "socialized" medicine and I'll come up with three from the good old USA, 'cause anything they screw up, we can screw up better. But if you want to know the REAL story (do you?) you look at stats like lifespan, infant mortality, disability, etc. The USA is behind on every broad measure of health, AND we spend a shitload more on health care per capita than anyone else.

Our private-care system is such a success.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you want to know the REAL story (do you?) you look at stats like lifespan, infant mortality, disability, etc. The USA is behind on every broad measure of health.

OK. I cannot speak to every part-and-parcel of data but I'll drag your old wikipedia link to the fore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

You are outraged perhaps that the US ranks 30th? And behind several euro countries with their social programs? Have you actually looked at this data beyond the rankings?

According to this pages table, which I cannot confirm of deny btw, the data mean of life expectancy in the states is 78.06 years. This exists behind these socialized euro countries:
Finland @ 78.66 years (7 months longer)
UK @ 78.7 (7 months longer)
Belgum @ 78.92 (10 months longer)
Germany @ 78.95 (10 months longer)
Norway @ 79.78 (1 year 8 months longer)
Sweden @ 80.63 (2 years 6 months longer)
France @ 80.87 (2 years 10 months longer)

I know there are other euro countries twixt some listed, but these are the ones I know are socialized and since France is tops I don't see a mathmatical requirement to include them all.

So Signy...2 years and 10 months of life beyond the time expected in the states. This is your grand proof of the superiority of social care? Really? I'm sorry but 34 months is not proof of anything. And that was just France. In Belgum you'd live 10 months longer, 7 in the UK. That seems trivial. I have a better way to explain the data.

Americans are less healthy.

We have the highest obesity rates in the world. There are whole billboards on interstate highways trumpeting warnings of heart disease to drivers. Fat americans die of heart attacks and strokes in their 50's and 60's all the time. I had a relative who was obese and died...my mothers 1st cousin. The poor woman was fat, lazy and horribly unhealthy. She had diabeties by age 40 and was dead at 54. Her death exists as part of the statistic on your quoted wikipedia page and had nothing to do with inferior care.

When I lived in Germany I would have been hard pressed to find an obese german in Saarbruken. Some were overweight sure, but most were either lean or of average weight. They hated McDonalds, calling it stupid and "too american". The schoolkids even thought that we ate McDonalds for dinner every night! They made fun of us for it until we told them different. 60 minutes did a piece in 2004 about a region of France with ultra-high longevity stats. And the people all drank a specific vintage of wine, (one glass) at dinner meals. I guess the question posed by Leslie Stahl was as to the wine's influence on the population, because a region of Italy drank similar vintages and had similar stats.

Consider again the obesity rates of the USA and then consider the marvel that we are at 30th at all. How can we compete at 78.06 years hindered as we are with so many unhealthy fat people? How do we overcome that disadvantage? Have you also considered American rates of murder which are also included in these wikipedia stats? It's 30% of the reason why people in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Angola, and Swaziland rarely see age 40 (The others being AIDS, hard labor and famine). What are the american murder stats as compared to Norway? Or Sweden? I seem to recall that they are among the most peaceful nations on the planet. When one Chicago youth kills another, does not the new 19-year-old stat skew things downward akwardly?

If you are so wrapped up in the data of life expectancy perhaps you can explain why Denmark and Ireland exist under the USA in the data? Does this seeming failure of Ireland and Denmark constitute proof positive that socialized health care is inferior? Of course not. And neither does the UK's positive 7 months or even France's whopping 34. Arguements like this one of yours are as common as crab grass but could never address the economics of the problem. Here's a website for you if you ever want to overwhelm yourself with socialized truth: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

At what point do the singular issues stop being so singular and begin to paint an image? How many american homicides and heart attacks mount a case that 78.06 is a triumph and not a tragedy?

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:31 AM

How many people here went to public schools?

How many went to private schools?

Does the existence of public schools mean that private schools are no longer allowed to exist? Does it mean that those private schools are no longer able to provide an education? Does it lessen the quality of that education? Are the private schools cheaper to attend than the public ones?

It's funny, because those on the right tend to denigrate public education while ALSO denigrating any perceived "elitism" of someone going to a private school or - god forbid - an IVY LEAGUE school. What gives? You're supposed to get an education, but not a good one, and not a free one?

I bring this up because those who argue against "socialism" don't seem to mind one little bit reaping all the BENEFITS of socialized programs (roads, education, disaster relief, water service, schools, police, fire departments, etc.) - they just don't want to have to PAY for those programs.

As I've mentioned before, my health insurance costs over $6000.00 per year. And I've never used it. It went up *ONLY* 22% this year, apparently because I've never used it. It seems to go up about that much EVERY year. Now, I gotta tell ya, I really don't think a government-run health care program is going to raise my taxes $6000.00 per year, and continue to increase that rate at around 18-30% per year. Do you?

As for the level and quality of care... well, I'm already paying out the ass for really, really SHITTY care and insurance that is next to useless. So the way I see it, I'll be out next to nothing, and I'll likely have MORE money left out of my paychecks; why is any of this something that I should be telling my congresspeople to vote against?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:41 AM

Quote:

At what point do the singular issues stop being so singular and begin to paint an image? How many american homicides and heart attacks mount a case that 78.06 is a triumph and not a tragedy?

Lemme get this straight... You're using our high murder rate to CELEBRATE that we don't live as long as most Europeans? Where's that get fun?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

INFANT MORTALITY AND UNDER-FIVE MORTALITY

166 United States 6.3 7.8
164 New Caledonia 6.1 8.7
165 Cyprus 5.9 6.9
166 Brunei 5.5 6.7
167 Channel Islands ( Jersey and Guernsey) 5.2 6.2
168 Cuba 5.1 6.5
169 New Zealand 5.0 6.4
170 Portugal 5.0 6.6
171 Italy 5.0 6.1
172 Ireland 4.9 6.2
173 Canada 4.8 5.9
174 United Kingdom 4.8 6.0
175 Slovenia 4.8 6.4
176 Israel 4.7 5.7
177 Netherlands 4.7 5.9
178 Luxembourg 4.5 6.6
179 Australia 4.4 5.6
180 Austria 4.4 5.4
181 Denmark 4.4 5.8
182 Germany 4.3 5.4
183 Spain 4.2 5.3
184 France 4.2 5.2
185 Belgium 4.2 5.3
186 South Korea 4.1 4.8
187 Switzerland 4.1 5.1
188 Czech Republic 3.8 4.8
189 Finland 3.7 4.7
190 Hong Kong 3.7 4.7
191 Norway 3.3 4.4
192 Sweden 3.2 4.0
193 Japan 3.2 4.2
194 Singapore 3.0 4.1
195 Iceland 2.9 3.9

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:52 AM

Signy, you're just proving BSCM's point - the high infant mortality rates and under-5 mortality rates aren't proof that private care isn't helping, they're proof that it's a downright miracle that ANYONE in this country lives to a ripe old age! Between dying in birth or just after, dying before age 5, or being shot or murdered, it's amazing ANY of us make it to 78! We're going to have to work harder to see if we can't kill off all those old codgers who are skewing are numbers awkwardly up!

'Course, once they REACH that ripe old age, they get free Social Security and state-run MediCare, so maybe that helps 'em live longer once they get to a certain age...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:33 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Are the bad infant mortality figures a reflection on having lots of ppl without health insurance? Because there again as with the high murder and obesity rates we would be looking at a suffering underclass skewing the statistics.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You're using our high murder rate to CELEBRATE that we don't live as long as most Europeans? Where's that get fun?

What?

What the gorram hell are you talking about? Who said anything about celebrating? You must be transfering your personal emotions of the subject upon my logical data.

Math is math. Signy drug up stats from wikipedia. I provided an analysis.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You're using our high murder rate to CELEBRATE that we don't live as long as most Europeans? Where's that get fun?
What?

What the gorram hell are you talking about? Who said anything about celebrating? You must be transfering your personal emotions of the subject upon my logical data.

Math is math. Signy drug up stats from wikipedia. I provided an analysis.

Must've been you calling it a triumph...

Quote:
How many american homicides and heart attacks mount a case that 78.06 is a triumph and not a tragedy?

You must be transferring your personal emotions on the subject to Signy's logical data...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
INFANT MORTALITY AND UNDER-FIVE MORTALITY

Since you are focused upon this subject and bring it up often, provide a link to this data and I'll consider it...offering an opinion tomorrow. I assume the left column figure is a numerical ranking and the right figure is a number cut from either 1000 or 10000. (i.e. 6.3/10000 infants die in america)

My wife and I had our 1st child in December in a womans hospital under our american health care system. Everything seemed fine to me. Nobody in our birthing class seemed worried either. One couple was poor and on medicaid.

But post your link and I'll think on it.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:57 PM

Or Kwik, you twist things so very well. I see now what you were driving at and its just so intellectually dishonest I simply didn't get it the first time.

So I'll rephrase what should have been obvious.

"Given all the factors working against the american survival rate, 2 varibles of which are obesity and murder, how should a reasonable person view a life expectancy of 78.06 years if they were given a choice to reside in the United States of America?"

Does it make sense to you now?

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It was the usual wikipedia, but it could have come from nationmaster or the CIA factbook as well. (Wikipedia also lists CIA factbook figures as well. Those figures show the USA at 178th, not 163rd. But xfering them over would have been a formatting nightmare.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rat
e_(2005)

From a personal perspective ... MY child almost died at birth. IF they had done a C-section there is a good possibility she would not have been brain-damaged. I don't have a grotch against USA medicine, but I have far too much experience with it.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Or Kwik, you twist things so very well. I see now what you were driving at and its just so intellectually dishonest I simply didn't get it the first time.

So I'll rephrase what should have been obvious.

"Given all the factors working against the american survival rate, 2 varibles of which are obesity and murder, how should a reasonable person view a life expectancy of 78.06 years if they were given a choice to reside in the United States of America?"

Does it make sense to you now?

Oh, relax, Blue - you should know I was just funnin' ya! It was just the way it was worded that struck me as a bit funny.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:42 PM

Quote:

My wife and I had our 1st child in December in a womans hospital under our american health care system. Everything seemed fine to me. Nobody in our birthing class seemed worried either. One couple was poor and on medicaid.

Speaking of intellectual dishonesty and using anecdotal evidence to try to back a claim...

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 2:05 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Honestly, I think we have an unecessarily violent, hyper-competitive, insecure society which doesn't give a crap about its citizens, and that is why we not only have a high murder rate, we're obese, suffer from bad health care AND have poor literacy rates.

Everyone here understands at a gut level that we're all nothing but fodder for the system, to be sheared, shorn and eventually slaughtered in the quest for bigger and brighter capitalism. Many people accept the current state of things, which is why they hate THEMSELVES for being poor.

So in a philosophical sense I think Bluesun is unintentionally making my point for me, and extending it to aspects of society that weren't even under discussion.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 2:31 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I read this many years ago in Slaughterhouse 5 and its stuck with me ever since:

Quote:
America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain't no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and thereforre more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking etstablishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child's hand - glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue,... . Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for an American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves."

It's particularly poignant when you compare it to rappy, who hates everybody except the rich and pwerful...

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:41 PM

Ah.

So, you have determined and conceptually isolated what the root of the problem actually IS, I see - because if not, you could have never wrote that.

Now do you understand my "solution" though ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:03 PM

JKIDDO

It's gonna take more than one at a time, Frem.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:10 PM

JKIDDO

Quote:
since marxism is no longer a credible solution

The "solution" that the EU is shoveling isn't Marxism, as all of the pro-capitalists are quick to point out that the EU economy is "basically" capitalist with a heavy dollop of wealth redistribution. What they're applying is a form of Keynesianism, which was developed as an alternate to Marxism and a means of keeping capitalism going. If you're going to toss around opinions it would be nice if they were informed.

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty and using anecdotal evidence to try to back a claim...

[sarcasm]
Personally I'm enjoying the honesty and lack of insult in that paradigm of honest debates posts.[/sarcasm]

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Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:12 PM

Quote:
It's gonna take more than one at a time, Frem.

Well, there's that, but there's also the fact that I've been at this twenty-seven friggin years too.

That means, two, three generations worth of folks, each one influencing the next, and the next, every droplet spreading ripples.

It's not one at a time no more, and the pebbles themselves are bouncing merrily down the side of the mountain.

Of course, the evil overlords at the bottom of that mountain ain't got a clue, but by the time they do, welll....

Too late.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty and using anecdotal evidence to try to back a claim...

[sarcasm]
Personally I'm enjoying the honesty and lack of insult in that paradigm of honest debates posts.[/sarcasm]

Yeah, I know I was being more than just a bit snarky, but it just grinds my gears when someone wants to go around pointing out "intellectual dishonesty" and dismissing "anecdotal evidence", and then offers nothing substantive to back their own points other than anecdotal evidence.

Hell, by those kinds of metrics, I can prove categorically that murder and gun violence aren't a problem in America at all. See, I used to live in a REALLY bad neighborhood, where there was violence and shootings on a regular basis. But *I* was never assaulted, and *I* was never shot or killed, so that proves that there was no problem. Right?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
It's gonna take more than one at a time, Frem.

Well, there's that, but there's also the fact that I've been at this twenty-seven friggin years too.

That means, two, three generations worth of folks, each one influencing the next, and the next, every droplet spreading ripples.

It's not one at a time no more, and the pebbles themselves are bouncing merrily down the side of the mountain.

Of course, the evil overlords at the bottom of that mountain ain't got a clue, but by the time they do, welll....

Too late.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

I love that analogy, Frem. It gives me a great visual of a couple bigwigs sitting in their lodge listening as pebbles hit the roof...

tick

"Did you hear that?"

clank

"Did I hear what?"

ping

"That. There's something out there."

plink-plink

"Naaahh... I don't hear nuthin'."

WHUMP

Silence.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:13 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
The "solution" that the EU is shoveling isn't Marxism

I never even hinted that it was! And I AM a pro-capitalist. Just pointing out that the radical revolutionary left position isn't there now as it was say, during the 1930s and a previous era of economic hardship. And thank God for that.

Heads should roll

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Other nations have folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor.

Bah, this quote from slaughterhouse 5 and all the rest I didn't copy is just a pile of go-see generalizations. No suprise when coming from the fff.net dubed "Queen of generalizations".

I guess stories of Jonny Appleseed weren't poor folk tales of a man with nothing but his faith in god as he traveled the United States in the early 19th century sowing apple trees for future generations to enjoy.

Well as more than a folk tale, he was a real man, who carried out apple growth as a business and yet himself kept nothing, spending his life giving all his fruits (pun surely) to others. At his death he willed his land holdings to his sister and gave the rest away to the needy. And some land, like his holding in Ft. Wayne Indiana was given to the city and now exists as Jonny Appleseed Park where an annual festival is held.

In short, speaking as a hoosier, Jonny Appleseed exists as our state's folk hero and seemingly as opposite to your article I quoted above exists in hoosier folk tales as a man who lived a poor lifestyle. He is taught to Indiana schoolchildren as a man who was extremely wise, virtuous, and giving. The rhyme Indiana kids learn (And I'm sure you've heard this before) is:
"Oh the Lord's been good to me. And so I thank the Lord. For giving me the things I need, the sun and the rain and the appleseed. The Lord's been good to me. And every tree I sow, will grow into a tree. And someday there will be apples there, for everyone in the world to share. The Lords been good to me."

And regard this from his wiki article:
According to Harper's New Monthly Magazine, towards the end of his career, Jonny Appleseed was present when an itinerant missionary was exhorting an open-air congregation in Mansfield, Ohio. The sermon was long and quite severe on the topic of extravagance, because the pioneers were starting to buy such indulgences as calico and store-bought tea. “Where now is there a man who, like the primitive Christians of old, is traveling to heaven bare-footed and clad in coarse raiment?” the preacher repeatedly asked, until Johnny Appleseed, his endurance worn out, approached the preacher, placed his bare foot upon the stump which had served as a podium, and said, “Here's your primitive Christian.” The flummoxed sermonizer dismissed the congregation.

Stop tossing around your generalizations. The thread topic runs off in crazy tangents and I haven't yet returned to your birth stats.

And I thought this was a conversation about socialized health care.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Just pointing out that the radical revolutionary left position isn't there now as it was say, during the 1930s and a previous era of economic hardship.

Unfortunatly the radical revolutionary Right, hasn't.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:57 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Not sure we'll ever lose the far right.

Heads should roll

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
From a personal perspective ... MY child almost died at birth. IF they had done a C-section there is a good possibility she would not have been brain-damaged.

OK. As distasteful as this subject might be, yesterday I promised I'd visit it. I recall sometime in the past you had refered to your personal traumas in the medical world. I myself have experienced no such hardship but I can say that I exist as 2nd of my mothers 3 children and also as the eldest. My older brother Paul died one year prior to my birth and is a 1970's infant death statistic.

Walking around the internet tubes today I pulled several articles about infant mortality.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/05/08/17819.aspx
http://www.emaxhealth.com/1/50/25454/u-s-infant-mortality-rate-drops-a
nd-less-american-infants-are-dying.html

All of these articles say pretty much the same thing, that the USA is worse off than euro nations. I guess the key question is to ask why this is and then to extend that question to the ultimate thread discussion about socialized health care. Can a social network truely cancel the disparity?

One of the points of the CNN article is to draw attention to minority groups in america and how their statistics are higher than the average and that lower income stats are also higher, so I'll acceed that so far the data fits into your model. Fair enough.

I also found this article:
http://www.emaxhealth.com/58/3321.html
And this one from an academic paper
http://books.google.com/books?id=81KtzIY6Xz0C&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=dr
inking+rates+lower+income&source=bl&ots=TacCrtRoLo&sig=bUMTy-um8xyVGbSiJ0OQSjlG3GI&hl=en&ei=djUxSpP7NZKkNcv_4bMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA161,M1
As well as other articles concered with drug use, and neglect.

What I'm seeking right now is something that ties all of these things together to paint the clearer picture but I cannot spend my day combing the internet tubes for it, so I'll just get to a synopsis proposal.

All those new articles agree that:
smoking is more common among lower income americans.
Drinking is more common among lower income americans.
Child neglect is more common among lower income americans.
Drug use is more common among lower income americans.

Combine this with the data in infant deaths & Insert the voice of the sheriff in The Train Job (Dust from the mines + air we got = recipe for Bowden's Malady). Draw a conclusion.

Is that proof of anything? No, I cannot say that it is. I think that the equation in this case possesses so many varibles to be acknowledged, the journey to the solution would be futile. But like my analysis of average life expectancy given yesterday, I also can say with absolute certainty that it would be intellectually dishonest (just for you kwik) to grope at wiki or CIA stats for use as proof to change social policy. No regard is given to the reverse stats.
What are obesity rates in western europe?
What are smoking rates?
alcohol abuse?
Drug abuse?
Child Neglect?

Does the conversation shift then away from governmental social support and into something else? Should we be changing social paradigms of lower income americans to improve their health? We libertarians say yes, that rugged individulism and personal responsibility are vital to a healthy human condition.

As a final bizarre end to this anaylsis I found this: http://www.arc.org/racewire/030210z_kashef.html
I really don't know what to say when a person writes that "College- and graduate-school educated black mothers have a higher infant mortality rate than white moms who didn’t finish high school"

Wow. Just wow. I never knew that such a thing would be true. Signy, perhaps you'd concede that some areas of the world are genetically better off in this regard (sweden perhaps? I don't know.) and since america is a melting pot we serve as genetic average for the world?

Lets also not miss sight of the fact that, like the life expectancy stats, we're talking about very small differences. 6.3/1000 = 0.63%. Recall that the delta value of life expectancy twixt the US and the UK is 7 months. Is France a socialist paradise with its 0.42%?

A sensitive topic this is, and not one I enjoyed delving into. I suppose my final analysis is that infant mortality stats are no proof of the superiority of universal health care. Lets have a conversation instead about insurance abuses and tort reform.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:00 AM

Quote:

All those new articles agree that:
smoking is more common among lower income americans.
Drinking is more common among lower income americans.
Child neglect is more common among lower income americans.
Drug use is more common among lower income americans.

Lack of health care is more common among lower income Americans, too. That might have something to do with any or all of the above...

Also, how do we compare on wealth distribution? In other words, we know that these things are more prevalent among the poor. The question is, how many poor do we have relative to those Euro nations? If you say these things are more prevalent among the poor, and that's no big deal because they're poor and no one really cares if they live or die, and THEN you find that some 80% of us qualify as "poor" by Euro standards, might that impact your thinking a bit? (I pulled that 80% number out of my ass, obviously; I don't have the real number, which is why I asked the question).

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:24 AM

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2007
/May/Mirror--Mirror-on-the-Wall--An-International-Update-on-the-Comparative-Performance-of-American-Healt.aspx

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Lets also not miss sight of the fact that, like the life expectancy stats, we're talking about very small differences. 6.3/1000 = 0.63%. Recall that the delta value of life expectancy twixt the US and the UK is 7 months. Is France a socialist paradise with its 0.42%?

There was that World Health Organisation report that ranked France's Healthcare system 1st, and the US's 37th. One might say you get what you pay for, until you realise that France spends 7% GDP on Healthcare, the US 14%, and France's system covers everyone.

In fact, there's something from Reuters that would seem relevent:

Quote:
France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN07651650

But why stop there?

Quote:
Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries. This report—an update to two earlier editions—includes data from surveys of patients, as well as information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries' health systems. Compared with five other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes. The inclusion of physician survey data also shows the U.S. lagging in adoption of information technology and use of nurses to improve care coordination for the chronically ill.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I never even hinted that it was! And I AM a pro-capitalist. Just pointing out that the radical revolutionary left position isn't there now as it was say, during the 1930s and a previous era of economic hardship. And thank God for that.

Because things are working so well now? I found this on (of all places) the Christian Science Monitor

Is capitalism fatally flawed?
By Paul McDonnold
Quote:
Recessions, like hurricanes, leave wreckage behind – bankrupt businesses, high unemployment, and sometimes even tattered philosophies. The philosophy of economic conservatism has long been one of unquestioned deregulation. Conservatives have considered it as a way of unhooking government leashes that the economy strains against, setting it free to run at full speed and lead us to wealth. But this philosophy seemed to collapse in the moral and financial wreckage of today's recession. Like many conservatives, I was left facing uncomfortable questions, chiefly: Is capitalism itself fatally flawed? I decided to consult a few past thinkers.

In "The Communist Manifesto" (1848), Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels propose that capitalism has inherent weaknesses. Marx said these would lead capitalist economies to collapse and become government-run socialist economies, and eventually utopian systems that he called communist. Today his words sound eerily current, like answers on a Sunday morning political show:

Interviewer: "Mr. Marx, not that long ago, lovers of capitalism pronounced your ideas dead. Now, according to at least one source, we are all socialists. What changed?"
Marx: "It is enough to mention the commercial crises that by their periodical return put on its trial, each time more threateningly, the existence of the entire bourgeois society."
Interviewer: "Nowadays we call these 'crises' recessions. You predicted that over time, capitalism would become dominated by larger and larger firms."
Marx: "[T]he concentration of capital and land in a few hands."
Interviewer: "And how does this concentration bring on socialism?"
Marx: "By paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented."
Interviewer: "So the bigger firms become, the harder they fall. In the US economy, some firms have become 'too big too fail,' and the government has moved in. As this plays out, what will happen to capitalism?"
Marx: "Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable."

Marx's disturbing words seemed even more prescient to me when I thought about what has happened in the US banking industry. As recently as 1980, the US was a nation of mostly small- and medium-sized banks. Employees knew, often on a personal basis, both the depositors and the borrowers. Deposits that were not loaned out had to be kept in low-risk investments such as government bonds. People who claimed the mantle of conservatism dismantled the regulations behind this system. This shook the industry. Through mergers and acquisitions, resources were centralized. The number of banks declined. Huge conglomerates arose and created the complex world of global finance that later collapsed. This is capitalism's dark side of impersonal corporations, recessions, and class conflict.

Another famous thinker, Adam Smith, saw a different side of capitalism. Seven decades before the "Manifesto," he wrote "The Wealth of Nations," about the capitalism of his day. It was one of small, decentralized firms – butchers and bakers. The driving force was not blind greed but a healthy interest in improving one's own lot by helping others. It was a capitalism that looked a lot like the banking sector before deregulation. Marx and Smith each saw a piece of the truth – two different sides of the coin of capitalism. Capitalism itself is not fatally flawed.
I don't know how he got to THAT, because he hasn't refuted Marx's arguments, but anyway...

Quote:
But a hyperconservative approach to it is. Regulations that promote decentralized competition on a human scale are regulations that conserve Smith's side of capitalism. These regulations should not be the enemy of conservatives; they should be our aim. Many conservatives will want to stick to the dogmatic ideological line of deregulation. But the capitalism produced by blind support of deregulation is one of bureaucratic corporations, greed-fueled booms, and fear-riddled busts. If conservatives do not embrace regulations that preserve Smith's capitalism, we might just wake up one day to see it gone and socialism in its place, just as Marx predicted.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:04 AM

Exactly like that, Mikey.

Remember, I know how this is gonna go, I have known how this is gonna go for years in advance.

We ain't done with the ugly yet, however.

-F

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I suppose my final analysis is that infant mortality stats are no proof of the superiority of universal health care. Lets have a conversation instead about insurance abuses and tort reform.

Looking at it another way, we could say that the stats do not offer any evidence of the INFERIORITY of socialized health care in terms of outcomes, either. And since socialized health care costs approximately 50-30% LESS per capita than private health care, whya re we sticking with an economically inefficient system? After all, isn't that where the so-called free enterprise system is supposed to shine? Getting more for less? (Seems the only thing we get more of is "screwed", tho. And that's pretty much across-the-board.)

Going back to your other points:

smoking is more common among lower income americans.
Drinking is more common among lower income americans.
Child neglect is more common among lower income americans.
Drug use is more common among lower income americans.

STRESS is more common among "lower income" Americans. Why??? Because nobody gives a shit about them and they don't give a shit about themselves. We have the greatest income inequality among all of the developed nations. CLEARLY, our commitment to social darwinism is creating a stressed, obese, addicted, unhealthy, crime-ridden, uneducated public. Faced with the RESULTS of our economic system, one has to go back to its PURPOSE. Are we achieving what we wanted? Are we pleased with the results? And what is it for anyway??? Greatest good for greatest number? Pie in the sky, by and by? An ideologically-driven system of "freedom"? Capitalism for capitalism's sake?

Also, going back to possible racial differences in populations: France has a significant African minority. Because it's illegal to conduct official surveys by race in France, the black population is only estimated, but it's at 5-10%.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:03 AM

Quote:
Lack of health care is more common among lower income Americans, too. That might have something to do with any or all of the above...

Sure. As I said, the varibles are legion.

Quote:
If you say these things are more prevalent among the poor, and that's no big deal because they're poor and no one really cares if they live or die.

A cruel thing to write. I said no such thing.

Quote:
Some 80% of us qualify as "poor" by Euro standards, might that impact your thinking a bit?

Since you indicate the 80% is an out-of-the-arse figure I shall disregard. But I'm sure that "poor" as defined in western europe is different than here. It's a reasonable statement to make since I know for a fact that "Rich" as defined in socialist nations is far below what we regard it here. And thus exists the difference between a land of opportunity and a land of stagnation. It's why self-starters worldwide still come to our nation even now in the 21st century. These past 3 years I've been building capital to open my own Subway restaurant. (It'll be pro-firefly btw and proudly displayed). As a part of the process I was granted a book in which was contained the store numbers of every single Subway location in the lower 48 along with the names of the franchsees. The number of non-anglo names in the book far outweighs what would seem to be "normal" american names. I bet 15-20% are "Patel". And good for these people. I'm happy for all of them. They came here because we were a nation that encouraged free-enterprise and acted as fertile soil for motivated self-starters. The essence of the purity of economic liberty makes me tremble.

Elsewhere in the world, like europe, enterprise is not encouraged. It's not prohibited...but the profit motive just isn't there. The result? Lots of people who all live the same I guess. Few rise above. Those that really want to stive for anything move here. The rest stay and do nothing...perhaps they depend on luck. And when you depend on luck you wind up on the drift.

Honestly, the way I've always seen it, the euros have climbed the wrong tree into vines of overwhelming debt and now don't know how to get themselves down. We on the other hand have things about 40% solved. We need to overcome insurance abuse with strict regulations and then end the process of fruitless torts that burden insurance companies whereupon they pass the buck to the middle class in the form of higher premiums. The one thing that stands in my way like a titan blocking my path to my Subway is the thought of buying my own health insurance for my family. It really pisses me off how bad it is out there when you don't get it as a benifit to employment. I will not however trade in this fear in exchange for a free health care system that will never self-sustain and will with no doubt drive the american population into ruin and long term debtor misery.

When I do get the subway open I'm considering a free sub to anyone who watches firefly for the 1st time. Good idea?

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:26 AM

Talk about ignoring facts to offer nothing but insult!

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
And thus exists the difference between a land of opportunity and a land of stagnation.

That's true, and judging by social mobility, Europe not only has more opportunity than the states, but the states has one of the lowest in the developed world. Stagnation is a dangerous thing, and a big problem for modern America it would seem...

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
It's why self-starters worldwide still come to our nation even now in the 21st century.

Because they don't go anywhere else? I seem to remember immigration to Europe being quite high...

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
The number of non-anglo names in the book far outweighs what would seem to be "normal" american names. I bet 15-20% are "Patel".

I have to admit that here in Britain, where the national dish is Curry, we have very few people from the Indian sub-continent, and with all those curry houses, you can certainly tell there's no opportunities for them...

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Elsewhere in the world, like europe, enterprise is not encouraged. It's not prohibited...but the profit motive just isn't there. The result? Lots of people who all live the same I guess. Few rise above.

There's your American-centrism talking again. You've never even been to Europe have you? Can you even find it on a map?

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Those that really want to stive for anything move here. The rest stay and do nothing...perhaps they depend on luck. And when you depend on luck you wind up on the drift.

Anything to back up that assertion (besides nationalist xenophobia I mean

)?

Nope, didn't think so

. Maybe we're too busy "stiving" for a better education

...

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And thus exists the difference between a land of opportunity and a land of stagnation.

Opportunity for who? Stagnation for who? Social mobility in the USA is ALSO lower than in Europe.

You're focusing on one aspect of capitalism, but not seeing the overall results, apparently. So, my question for YOU would be... Since capitalism apparnelty offers you the chance to open your own business (which you belive doens't exist anyhwere else) but offers nothing FOR ME, why should I support it? Generically, what argument can you make for it?

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:54 AM

Quote:
You've never even been to Europe have you?

Well I've told you before I lived in Saarbruken for a year of an overabundance of schooling. I was in Tel Aviv for 3 months too, but that's not europe is it?

Beyond that I've traveled most of the lower 48 states. Places you'll never see since you'll never leave your great big island.

Quote:
I have to admit that here in Britain

Oh so you do live in Britain? As in UK? As in United Kingdom? As in the occupiers of Northern Ireland? Not the threads topic I know, but I'd sure like the clarification since you once laid those subjects at the feet of the English.

Hmm. England. I've never actually been there. I should extend my plans for normandy to include a ride along the Chunnel. Is there anything worth seeing on your great big island? Or is the UK just a bunch of people with big egos and bad teeth?

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Since capitalism apparnelty offers you the chance to open your own business (which you belive doens't exist anyhwere else) but offers nothing FOR ME, why should I support it?

You and I have both studied different philosophies, but each know well a truth of the subject of philosophy itself, that each arguement can be made. Each is proven valid. Each is proven false.

Rather than prove to you the truth of capitalism I might demand you prove it false. The result is the same.

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:26 AM

Clearly you have no answer for the points I raised in my last two posts. That sound, it's you being unable to create a credible argument, and so relying on only personal insults to push your authoritarian agenda.

But then, you have a long history of ignoring all facts and debate only to troll and insult.

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Well I've told you before I lived in Saarbruken for a year of an overabundance of schooling.

You've never been to Europe, stop talking nonsense. You're spouting crazy nonsense that anyone who has actually been to Europe would know is nonsense, and because you've done a google search for Germany town names, you think that's compelling? Stop lying, admit it, you've never left the US. The truth will set you free.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Beyond that I've traveled most of the lower 48 states. Places you'll never see since you'll never leave your great big island.

Whatever gets you through the night my xenophobic, nationalist, Authoritarian little troll.

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Oh so you do live in Britain? As in UK? As in United Kingdom? As in the occupiers of Northern Ireland? Not the threads topic I know, but I'd sure like the clarification since you once laid those subjects at the feet of the English.

Quote me. Why do you feel the need to make stuff up so often? Are you a fantasist?

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Hmm. England. I've never actually been there.

Well, it is outside the US, so that's a given.

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Or is the UK just a bunch of people with big egos and bad teeth?

No, it's not really very much like the States at all.

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You and I have both studied different philosophies, but each know well a truth of the subject of philosophy itself, that each arguement can be made. Each is proven valid. Each is proven false.

Rather than prove to you the truth of capitalism I might demand you prove it false. The result is the same.

Translation:
"I've got nothing, but I'm not man enough to admit it"

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:43 AM