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Rather than prove to you the truth of capitalism I might demand you prove it false. The result is the same.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Nokia is Finnish.

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Elsewhere in the world, like europe, enterprise is not encouraged. It's not prohibited...but the profit motive just isn't there. The result? Lots of people who all live the same I guess. Few rise above. Those that really want to stive for anything move here. The rest stay and do nothing...perhaps they depend on luck. And when you depend on luck you wind up on the drift.

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Honestly, the way I've always seen it, the euros have climbed the wrong tree into vines of overwhelming debt and now don't know how to get themselves down.

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We on the other hand have things about 40% solved. We need to overcome insurance abuse with strict regulations...

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...and then end the process of fruitless torts that burden insurance companies whereupon they pass the buck to the middle class in the form of higher premiums. The one thing that stands in my way like a titan blocking my path to my Subway is the thought of buying my own health insurance for my family. It really pisses me off how bad it is out there when you don't get it as a benifit to employment. I will not however trade in this fear in exchange for a free health care system that will never self-sustain and will with no doubt drive the american population into ruin and long term debtor misery.

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When I do get the subway open I'm considering a free sub to anyone who watches firefly for the 1st time. Good idea?

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If you say these things are more prevalent among the poor, and that's no big deal because they're poor and no one really cares if they live or die.
A cruel thing to write. I said no such thing.

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Or is the UK just a bunch of people with big egos and bad teeth?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by citizen:
Nokia is Finnish.

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Thanks for that. Being a public school-educated American, all I knew was that it was from "over there" somewhere...



And sadly, I never can figure out between Finland, Sweden, and Norway, which is which. Shameful, it is.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Norway . . . noted mostly for it's amazing fjords . . . designed by Slartibartfast himself. He won an award and everything.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thanks for that. Being a public school-educated American, all I knew was that it was from "over there" somewhere...

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And sadly, I never can figure out between Finland, Sweden, and Norway, which is which. Shameful, it is.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You've never been to Europe, stop talking nonsense.

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Originally posted by citizen:

Heh.

Since they're Finnish, they'd be at the end.

Geddit. Hello. Is this thing on?

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The one thing that stands in my way like a titan blocking my path to my Subway is the thought of buying my own health insurance for my family.... And thus exists the difference between a land of opportunity and a land of stagnation.

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the euros have climbed the wrong tree into vines of overwhelming debt and now don't know how to get themselves down.

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I'm a po' boy.

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What's in the capitalist system for me?

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Health care costs... a product of our so-called free-market system... are a HUGE disincentive for small businesses and small business employers! It even affects large businesses. Aside from making short-sighted decisions about which kinds of vehicles to produce, health care is another reason why GM fell.

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In terms of current public deficit and public debt, the euros are better off than we are. Why? Because they're not propping up their huge, failed, DE-REGULATED banks.

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You have not exactly answered my question either: What's in the capitalist system for me?

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Health care costs... a product of our so-called free-market system... are a HUGE disincentive for small businesses and small business employers! It even affects large businesses. Aside from making short-sighted decisions about which kinds of vehicles to produce, health care is another reason why GM fell.
Perhaps it'll shock you that I agree with these statements. Where we differ is in the solution. I would fix the broken machine. You would send it to the scrapyard and buy something new.

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This is why I repeat that China's star is on the rise. They own an ever-increasing percentage of the worlds debt and are now buying gold.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Honestly, the way I've always seen it, the euros have climbed the wrong tree into vines of overwhelming debt and now don't know how to get themselves down. We on the other hand have things about 40% solved.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Yes they are better but in context it's really the western nations as a whole who are overleveraged...with the USA at the end of the fulcrum exerting the most torque upon the world machine.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
This would seem to be a ringing endorsement of China's system. If all the Western nations are overleveraged and China's buying up their debt and gold, wouldn't that imply that they have a better system?

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Personal Freedom
Economic Freedom

Which of these 2 is the greater? If I were to impose upon you a strict system of laws that limited your lifestyle to what is given in the Biblical Old Testiment (force you to live like a puritan perhaps), would you be outraged? Would you demand change? Should I then respond to your outrage with the question: "What good is a secular society to me?" The importance of personal freedoms and economic freedoms is equivalent. In an economically free society citizens have the choice to participate or not. As I see it, you are personally choosing the latter, and thats fine. And you still indirectly benefit from all the advances in tech that were products of an openly competing free american marketplace. The hotbeds of advance in the world exist in the free markets: USA, Japan, ect..

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In an economically free society citizens have the choice to participate or not. As I see it, you are personally choosing the latter, and thats fine.

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Should I then respond to your outrage with the question: "What good is a secular society to me?

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the advances in tech that were products of an openly competing free american marketplace. The hotbeds of advance in the world exist in the free markets: USA, Japan, ect.

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The answer is: "Whatever you endeavour to take for yourself within the law."

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My question to you is now: What is there in a marxist society for me?

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Because things are working so well now? I found this on (of all places) the Christian Science Monitor

Is capitalism fatally flawed?
By Paul McDonnold

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Originally posted by kpo:
I'm not against regulation, I'm not anti-government. Economies are like natural systems in my view; Capitalism allows an economy to be natural and therefore be healthy and vibrant,

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Originally posted by kpo:
but natural systems often operate in damaging cycles and there's definitely a role for government to prevent/limit the effects of these, as well as of course regulating to enforce the rule of law (crucial for a healthy economy).

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Capitalism is a human construct, working under the dictates of human intellect. Prescribing it to natural constructs is nonsense.

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There's nothing natural about an economy or capitalism.

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Nor for that matter is prescribing it to natural a winning argument. Prescribing 'Natural' to mean 'Good' is an actual logical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

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the whole point of civilisation is to subvert the natural order, not recreate it.

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Originally posted by kpo:
but natural systems often operate in damaging cycles and there's definitely a role for government to prevent/limit the effects of these, as well as of course regulating to enforce the rule of law (crucial for a healthy economy).
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I really can't think of any pertinent examples. Maybe bush fires, but they're not really a great analogy.

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But similarly, as an invention capitalism seems quite 'natural' to me, like money, or the wheel. At least it has never struck me as unnatural, like socialism.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Hmm, well I've got a lot more thinking to do on this subject, but you are saying everything about civilisation is a 'human construct' - and therefore talking about some of our invented systems for dealing with each other as 'natural' is nonsense?

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Originally posted by kpo:
If I was to talk about something simple like money: money is a human invention, but it's origins stem from the need for humans to barter, and trade with each other. Money enhances this process because it's so convenient and efficient - and although it had to be invented I see it as quite a natural, and inevitable solution to a human problem.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I've heard some conspiracy theorists speak of money as like a diabolical invention used to control and oppress people, and I'd like to hear their reasoning, but money still seems 'natural' to me, do you agree?

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Originally posted by kpo:
If you'd prefer a different adjective to 'natural' feel free to suggest one.

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Originally posted by kpo:
But similarly, as an invention capitalism seems quite 'natural' to me, like money, or the wheel. At least it has never struck me as unnatural, like socialism.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I said economies are like natural systems, so analogy was implied;

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Capitalism allows an economy to be natural

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Originally posted by kpo:
even if you see nothing natural about 'human constructs' to solve problems. I think our economic systems have evolved throughout history, and there are principles of competition and survival of the fittest in a free market, similar to what we see in nature.

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I never said that 'natural' meant 'good' - I talked about the instability of some natural systems remember?

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Capitalism allows an economy to be natural and therefore be healthy and vibrant

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Interesting, says who? I think subverting the natural order in civilisation might just be a means towards another, higher end.

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In any case, something like competition in industry, just like competition and survival of the fittest in the natural world, is healthy.

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Quite damaging for the lynxes that starve to death - it strikes me as a natural system that would benefit from some regulation.

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Originally posted by JKiddo:
All economic systems are coercive, in the sense that as long as you live, work, and consume in it, you MUST participate.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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But similarly, as an invention capitalism seems quite 'natural' to me, like money, or the wheel. At least it has never struck me as unnatural, like socialism.

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It seems to me that you view capitalism as a "natural" system because you were raised in that system. It might be that someone raised in a Marxist system sees that as the most "natural" system, or someone raised in a socialist system could see IT as the most "natural". None of them would be wrong, really. There are "natural" examples of "capitalist" behavior (a lion, for instance, might want something, take it, and have it, without sharing, but merely for its own good) as well as of "socialist" behavior, where the whole herd or school or flock act as one, and the individuals are ripped apart by the "capitalist" predators that follow.

I'm just sayin'...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Do not confuse your need to work with a misunderstanding of what economic freedom is. In socialized euro countries where economic freedom is less, people still have jobs. They also take home far less on average purchasing power than americans do.

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Originally posted by kpo:
True, greed/self-interest is a natural human instinct and so is sharing. What I'm more interested in though is not what is done with the spoils but the method employed to gain them in the first place. I'm talking about capitalism vs socialism as systems to create wealth. And I think the 'naturalness' of capitalism as a solution to this problem comes from the fact that it arose out of people's sincere desire to make money, whereas socialism seems heavily tainted with other agendas such as 'social justice' or whatever - I don't even think making money is its primary concern.

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BSCM wrote:

My point to Signy was to teach the connection between free-markets and free-thought. A free market doesn't exclude one from a need to survive. Do not confuse your need to work with a misunderstanding of what economic freedom is. In socialized euro countries where economic freedom is less, people still have jobs. They also take home far less on average purchasing power than americans do. Worse still would be the old system behind the iron curtain of eastern europe where citizens were forced at pitchfork point to work for good the good of the people.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Do not confuse your need to work with a misunderstanding of what economic freedom is. In socialized euro countries where economic freedom is less, people still have jobs. They also take home far less on average purchasing power than americans do.

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# 1 Luxembourg: $79,421.60 per capita
# 2 Qatar: $78,723.23 per capita
# 3 Bermuda: $71,067.59 per capita
# 4 Jersey: $56,159.98 per capita
# 5 Kuwait: $55,875.75 per capita
# 6 Norway: $53,285.21 per capita
# 7 Brunei: $52,432.48 per capita
# 8 Singapore: $49,879.10 per capita
# 9 Ireland: $46,628.37 per capita
# 10 United States: $45,759.46 per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_pur_pow_par_percap-purchasin
g-power-parity-per-capita

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And the problem I have with that view, is it requires ignoring data that doesn't agree with it. A desire for equality is as inbuilt, if not more so, than a desire to accumulate wealth.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I said economies are like natural systems, so analogy was implied;
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You also said:

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Capitalism allows an economy to be natural

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Barter and Trade are unnatural constructs of proto-human civilisation. They're off-shoots of Humans ability to create tools and organisations, technology, that creates surpluses.

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and even another fallacy. Who says capitalism is the only, or even the best way of delivering that?

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There's people through out history who've thought the same, like the Spartan's and Roman's who practised infanticide of newborns that didn't fit the bill.

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Capitalism allows an economy to be natural and therefore be healthy and vibrant

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I'm not saying capitalism mirrors the natural order of things, dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest etc.

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I'm saying capitalism is a natural/organically devised solution to the problem of creating wealth effectively, and in that sense it works better than any imposed, more artificial system.

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I've said I view socialism as an unnatural solution because it wasn't devised to solve this problem, but another one.

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Competition was something I pointed out as a healthy trait in economies, similar to in the natural world - where did I say capitalism was the only way to deliver it?

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What's interesting about that list to me, is that all the countries above the US are small countries (and some of them oil rich states/tax havens) - but basically I think it must be an advantage being a small country. Big European countries like the UK, France, Germany are quite a bit further down the list.

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My point to Signy was to teach the connection between free-markets and free-thought.

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A free market doesn't exclude one from a need to survive. Do not confuse your need to work with a misunderstanding of what economic freedom is.

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In socialized euro countries where economic freedom is less, people still have jobs. They also take home far less on average purchasing power than americans do.

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Originally posted by kpo:
What's interesting about that list to me, is that all the countries above the US are small countries (and some of them oil rich states/tax havens) - but basically I think it must be an advantage being a small country. Big European countries like the UK, France, Germany are quite a bit further down the list.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I said it in the same sentence as that previous quote where I'd set up the analogy...

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Originally posted by kpo:
I don't buy this idea of the whole point of civilisation being to subvert nature - and you giving examples of where it apparently does subvert nature certainly doesn't prove that that's the point.

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Originally posted by kpo:
But it doesn't matter, since the word 'natural' was being used as a metaphor:

And if a 'natural' metaphor is so confusing in terms of 'unnatural' human innovation and its development, why are you using one yourself?

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Barter and Trade are unnatural constructs of proto-human civilisation. They're off-shoots of Humans ability to create tools and organisations, technology, that creates surpluses.

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A quite natural offshoot, one might say.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I'm not saying capitalism mirrors the natural order of things, dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest etc., and so that's why we should have it.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I'm saying capitalism is a natural/organically devised solution to the problem of creating wealth effectively, and in that sense it works better than any imposed, more artificial system.

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Originally posted by kpo:
lol, another fallacy. Competition was something I pointed out as a healthy trait in economies, similar to in the natural world - where did I say capitalism was the only way to deliver it?

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Originally posted by kpo:
The whole dog-eat-dog thing as natural order of things, I presume? How did you get that from this quote:

"I think subverting the natural order in civilisation might just be a means towards another, higher end."

Mystifying.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I also didn't understand your last bit on lynxes - was that a significant QED?

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KPO: You've said, or at least implied, that it isn't inherent in human nature to subvert the natural,

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Also, you've pointed out that in your opinion, capitalism in "natural", while socialism is "unnatural".

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What's interesting to me is when you look at GDP those big countries appear at the top.

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Regardless, it makes bugger all difference if you were saying it is natural, or if you were saying it's like natural, since the objections are largely the same (objections you've ignored rather than argued against).

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You said Capitalism is (or is like) a natural system.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I'm not saying capitalism mirrors the natural order of things, dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest etc., and so that's why we should have it.
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That's exactly what you said.

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May I suggest that we give up this he said-she said bullshit? Perhaps you could restate your position and we can try this again from the top?

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Originally posted by kpo:
No. A natural solution. Just like as citizen was pointing out, barter and trade are natural solutions or 'offshoots' to humans creating surpluses. We're talking about human technology and its natural development or evolution.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Somehow just with the word 'natural' I managed to set off three of you (Jkiddo has just joined in) with the misconception that I view a capitalist dog-eat-dog society as the natural, prescribed order of things.

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Originally posted by kpo:
This is the problem I get as a centrist arguing with anyone on the left or the right - they tend to project the views of their bitter political opponents onto me. Moderate views disagreeing with them are uncomfortable to them, they're only happy arguing with extreme views from the other side.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Why do I have to prove anything about what the point of civilisation is?

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Originally posted by kpo:
It's like you don't understand what an analogy does.

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Nope, I said neither.

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Lol, where did I say it? Just admit that you jumped to a wrong conclusion about what my point was.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Economies are like natural systems in my view; Capitalism allows an economy to be natural and therefore be healthy and vibrant

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Originally posted by kpo:

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May I suggest that we give up this he said-she said bullshit? Perhaps you could restate your position and we can try this again from the top?

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No,

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I'll just take you through my original post and its one contentious sentence step by step:

1. "Economies are like natural systems in my view"

Here KPO is suggesting that,

A) An economy is a natural system
B) An economy is like a natural system (ie. a metaphor)

2. "Capitalism allows an economy to be natural"

What is being described as being 'natural' here?

A) Capitalism
B) Still the economy

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Point one, I didn't say natural off shoot

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You said it was like a natural system, those were your first set of words

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your claim that you were merely saying that Capitalism was a "natural development". Trying to equate the two,

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Originally posted by kpo:
I never said you did, I quoted 'offshoot' - which you still haven't realised, is in itself a 'natural' metaphor (what plants, ie. natural systems do).

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See my little comprehension exercise above.

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The two points stand distinct:
An economy is like a natural system.
Capitalism is a natural development of human innovation.

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The second point only came as a rebuttal to your assertion: "There's nothing natural about an economy or capitalism."

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Economies are like natural systems. Capitalism allows an economy to be natural. Therefore Capitalism is more natural,

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Originally posted by kpo:
No. Capitalism allows a natural system to be natural. Like a growing plant, or animal, that is allowed to grow 'naturally' without too many 'unnatural' binding restrictions that will deform it.

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