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Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's constitution.

It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking.

But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground.

That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.

Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development."

Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office.

For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization.

The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup.

The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of institutions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
HONDURAS DEFENDS ITS DEMOCRACY WITH A MILITARY COUP TO PREVENT A VOTE!

Kinda ironic, innit?

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TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – Soldiers ousted the democratically elected president of Honduras on Sunday and Congress named a successor, but the leftist ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced what he called an illegal coup and vowed to stay in power.

The first military takeover of a Central American government in 16 years drew widespread condemnation from governments in Latin America and the world, and Chavez vowed to overthrow the country's apparent new leader.

President Manuel Zelaya was awakened Sunday by gunfire and detained while still in his pajamas, hours before an unpopular constitutional referendum many saw as a power grab. An air force plane flew him into forced exile in Costa Rica as armored military vehicles with machine guns rolled through the streets of the Honduran capital and soldiers seized the national palace.

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Caracas, Venezuela – The text message that beeped on my cell phone this morning read “Alert, Zelaya has been kidnapped, coup d’etat underway in Honduras, spread the word.” It’s a rude awakening for a Sunday morning, especially for the millions of Hondurans that were preparing to exercise their sacred right to vote today for the first time on a consultative referendum concerning the future convening of a constitutional assembly to reform the constitution. Supposedly at the center of the controversary is today’s scheduled referendum, which is not a binding vote but merely an opinion poll to determine whether or not a majority of Hondurans desire to eventually enter into a process to modify their constitution.... Zelaya, elected in November 2005 on the platform of Honduras’ Liberal Party, had proposed the opinion poll be conducted to determine if a majority of citizens agreed that constitutional reform was necessary. He was backed by a majority of labor unions and social movements in the country. If the poll had occured, depending on the results, a referendum would have been conducted during the upcoming elections in November to vote on convening a constitutional assembly. Nevertheless, today’s scheduled poll was not binding by law. In fact, several days before the poll was to occur, Honduras’ Supreme Court ruled it illegal, upon request by the Congress, both of which are led by anti-Zelaya majorities and members of the ultra-conservative party, National Party of Honduras (PNH). This move led to massive protests in the streets in favor of President Zelaya.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm calling it a coup because that's what the press is calling it

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TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – Soldiers ousted the democratically elected president of Honduras on Sunday and Congress named a successor, but the leftist ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced what he called an illegal coup and vowed to stay in power.

The first military takeover of a Central American government in 16 years drew widespread condemnation from governments in Latin America and the world, and Chavez vowed to overthrow the country's apparent new leader.

President Manuel Zelaya was awakened Sunday by gunfire and detained while still in his pajamas, hours before an unpopular constitutional referendum many saw as a power grab. An air force plane flew him into forced exile in Costa Rica as armored military vehicles with machine guns rolled through the streets of the Honduran capital and soldiers seized the national palace.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_refe
rendum

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I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.

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The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.

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They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

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The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.

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If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Originally posted by gripper:
The Honduran military got it right...Zelaya was trying to color outside of the lines;essentially laying the groundwork for "President for Life",AFTER both his own nations Supreme Court AND their Congress replied:"Nope"....I'd say he got off pretty lucky to hav efound a nice berth ELSEWHERE as opposed to "whereabouts unknown at this time"....

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Originally posted by badkarma00:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.

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They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

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The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.

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If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Well, the difference is, that Zelaya was trying to extend his presidency in violation of the constitution. Bush, for all his faults, and as a Republican I will say there were many, never tried something like that.

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Never? "Enhanced Interrogation"? Warrantless wiretaps? Extraordinary rendition? Those all sound constitutional to you?

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I agree with you though about the title, and the conotations. It's not always a bad thing. I can't understand the uproar, though, considering that the civilian government, again sans ex-president wanna be for life, is in charge rather than the military.

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Agreed. It looks like this might be the rare occasion when the military stepped in, took control of the situation, ousted a president who was trying to do something unconstitutional, and then handed control back to the LEGITIMATE civilian authorities. And I reiterate: We should have been so lucky at any time in the last 8 years. And we may need that kind of luck in the next 4 or more... not that I think we'll get any help at all out of these milquetoasts.

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You ever feel like a mushroom when you see the news? Kept in the dark and fed a lot of $hit? I know I do. Maybe our problem is that we've become so used to having worldwide news at our beckon call, knowing everything that happens, everywhere.

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Yes! A few years ago, we had reports all over the national news about massive flooding in San Antonio, just down the road from me. I was heading there to visit my brothers anyway, so I was kinda worried about what I was going to run into. Problem is, I couldn't find ANY signs of that "massive flooding" ANYWHERE. News made it sound like the whole city was underwater, and I couldn't even find a damn puddle! That's when I started to fully realize the sensational, overblown nature of the headlines.

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Only we don't really know, do we?

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Not unless we're there on the scene, it seems.

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I don't think Obama has to worry about a 'coup' here, though. We've never had one, and I don't think the professional military would support one.

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There are those who'd argue that we DID undergo a coup here in November 1963. Just sayin'...

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And, while I don't like Obama and his socialist agenda, I haven't seen anything he's done that would rate a 'coup', lol. I know he's broken campaign promises, and lots of people are making hay over that, but good grief, what politician hasn't lied?

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John Edwar- BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH...

Sorry. I *TRIED* to keep a straight face while saying that. It just can't be done.

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It is kinda funny though that Obama can basically say nothing about what's happening in Iran, and then raise all kinds of hell about what looks like the Honduran's just taking out the trash.

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Well, on the serious side, how much trouble can Honduras really cause us? I mean, if they get REALLY pissed at us, what are they gonna do, stop sending us cheap sandals and guayabera shirts?

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But, like I said, we don't really know everything, about anything. Who's to say?

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Werner Heisenberg would be proud. After all we can never KNOW anything, can we?


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Originally posted by gripper:
Hey! I LIKE guayabera shirts....I am a skinny,5'8",150 ponder;and I can make a 6 inch GP100 DISAPPEAR when I "dress around my gear"(LOL!)....

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by badkarma00:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.

---

They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

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The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.

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If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Well, the difference is, that Zelaya was trying to extend his presidency in violation of the constitution. Bush, for all his faults, and as a Republican I will say there were many, never tried something like that.

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Never? "Enhanced Interrogation"? Warrantless wiretaps? Extraordinary rendition? Those all sound constitutional to you?

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I agree with you though about the title, and the conotations. It's not always a bad thing. I can't understand the uproar, though, considering that the civilian government, again sans ex-president wanna be for life, is in charge rather than the military.

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Agreed. It looks like this might be the rare occasion when the military stepped in, took control of the situation, ousted a president who was trying to do something unconstitutional, and then handed control back to the LEGITIMATE civilian authorities. And I reiterate: We should have been so lucky at any time in the last 8 years. And we may need that kind of luck in the next 4 or more... not that I think we'll get any help at all out of these milquetoasts.

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You ever feel like a mushroom when you see the news? Kept in the dark and fed a lot of $hit? I know I do. Maybe our problem is that we've become so used to having worldwide news at our beckon call, knowing everything that happens, everywhere.

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Yes! A few years ago, we had reports all over the national news about massive flooding in San Antonio, just down the road from me. I was heading there to visit my brothers anyway, so I was kinda worried about what I was going to run into. Problem is, I couldn't find ANY signs of that "massive flooding" ANYWHERE. News made it sound like the whole city was underwater, and I couldn't even find a damn puddle! That's when I started to fully realize the sensational, overblown nature of the headlines.

Quote:

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Only we don't really know, do we?

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Not unless we're there on the scene, it seems.

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I don't think Obama has to worry about a 'coup' here, though. We've never had one, and I don't think the professional military would support one.

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There are those who'd argue that we DID undergo a coup here in November 1963. Just sayin'...

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And, while I don't like Obama and his socialist agenda, I haven't seen anything he's done that would rate a 'coup', lol. I know he's broken campaign promises, and lots of people are making hay over that, but good grief, what politician hasn't lied?

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John Edwar- BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH...

Sorry. I *TRIED* to keep a straight face while saying that. It just can't be done.

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It is kinda funny though that Obama can basically say nothing about what's happening in Iran, and then raise all kinds of hell about what looks like the Honduran's just taking out the trash.

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Well, on the serious side, how much trouble can Honduras really cause us? I mean, if they get REALLY pissed at us, what are they gonna do, stop sending us cheap sandals and guayabera shirts?

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But, like I said, we don't really know everything, about anything. Who's to say?

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Werner Heisenberg would be proud. After all we can never KNOW anything, can we?


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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As military "coups" go, the one this weekend in Honduras was strangely, well, democratic. The military didn't oust President Manuel Zelaya on its own but instead followed an order of the Supreme Court. It also quickly turned power over to the president of the Honduran Congress, a man from the same party as Mr. Zelaya. The legislature and legal authorities all remain intact.

We mention these not so small details because they are being overlooked as the world, including the U.S. President, denounces tiny Honduras in a way that it never has, say, Iran. President Obama is joining the U.N., Fidel Castro, Hugo Chávez and other model democrats in demanding that Mr. Zelaya be allowed to return from exile and restored to power. Maybe it's time to sort the real from the phony Latin American democrats.
[Review & Outlook] Associated Press

People against the return of ousted Honduras President Manuel Zelaya participate in a rally at the central park in Tegucigalpa, Tuesday, June 30, 2009.

The situation is messy, and we think the Hondurans would have been smarter -- and better off -- not sending Mr. Zelaya into exile at dawn. Mr. Zelaya was pressing ahead with a nonbinding referendum to demand a constitutional rewrite to let him seek a second four-year term. The attorney general and Honduran courts declared the vote illegal and warned he'd be prosecuted if he followed through. Mr. Zelaya persisted, even leading a violent mob last week to seize and distribute ballots imported from Venezuela. However, the proper constitutional route was to impeach Mr. Zelaya and then arrest him for violating the law.

Yet the events in Honduras also need to be understood in the context of Latin America's decade of chavismo. Venezuela's Hugo Chávez was democratically elected in 1998, but he has since used every lever of power, legal and extralegal, to subvert democracy. He first ordered a rewrite of the constitution that allowed his simple majority in the national assembly grant him the power to rule by decree for one year and to control the judiciary.

In 2004 he packed the Supreme Court with 32 justices from 20. Any judge who rules against his interests can be fired. He made the electoral tribunal that oversees elections his own political tool, denying opposition requests to inspect voter rolls and oversee vote counts. The once politically independent oil company now hires only Chávez allies, and independent television stations have had their licenses revoked.

Mr. Chávez has also exported this brand of one-man-one-vote-once democracy throughout the region. He's succeeded to varying degrees in Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina and Nicaragua, where his allies have stretched the law and tried to dominate the media and the courts. Mexico escaped in 2006 when Felipe Calderón linked his leftwing opponent to chavismo and barely won the presidency.

In Honduras Mr. Chávez funneled Veneuzelan oil money to help Mr. Zelaya win in 2005, and Mr. Zelaya has veered increasingly left in his four-year term. The Honduran constitution limits presidents to a single term, which is scheduled to end in January. Mr. Zelaya was using the extralegal referendum as an act of political intimidation to force the Congress to allow a rewrite of the constitution so he could retain power. The opposition had pledged to boycott the vote, which meant that Mr. Zelaya would have won by a landslide.

Such populist intimidation has worked elsewhere in the region, and Hondurans are understandably afraid that, backed by Chávez agents and money, it could lead to similar antidemocratic subversion there. In Tegucigalpa yesterday, thousands demonstrated against Mr. Zelaya, and new deputy foreign minister Marta Lorena Casco told the crowd that "Chávez consumed Venezuela, then Bolivia, after that Ecuador and Nicaragua, but in Honduras that didn't happen."

It's no accident that Mr. Chávez is now leading the charge to have Mr. Zelaya reinstated, and on Monday the Honduran traveled to a leftwing summit in Managua in one of Mr. Chávez's planes. The U.N. and Organization of American States are also threatening the tiny nation with ostracism and other punishment if it doesn't readmit him. Meanwhile, the new Honduran government is saying it will arrest Mr. Zelaya if he returns. This may be the best legal outcome, but it also runs the risk of destabilizing the country. We recall when the Clinton Administration restored Bertrand Aristide to Haiti, only to have the country descend into anarchy.

As for the Obama Administration, it seems eager to "meddle" in Honduras in a way Mr. Obama claimed was counterproductive in Iran. Yet the stolen election in Iran was a far clearer subversion of democracy than the coup in Honduras. As a candidate, Mr. Obama often scored George W. Bush's foreign policy by saying democracy requires more than an election -- a free press, for example, civil society and the rule of law rather than rule by the mob. It's a point worth recalling before Mr. Obama hands a political victory to the forces of chavismo in Latin America.

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The Honduran coup is a reaction to Chávez's rule by the mob.

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As military "coups" go, the one this weekend in Iran was strangely, well, democratic. The military didn't oust Presidential candidate Moussavi on its own but instead followed an order of the Supreme Ruler and Revolutionary Guard. It also quickly protected the putative President Ahmadinejad and tore down the voting booths erected by Moussavi, confiscated ballots and arrested anyone who appeared to be an opposition poll-worker. But the legislature and legal authorities all remain intact.

We mention these not so small details because they are being overlooked as the world, including the U.S. President, denounces Iran in a way that it never has, say, Honduras. President Obama is joining the U.N., the UK, and other model democrats in demanding that Mr. Moussavi be allowed to return from exile and that the extra-legal vote be allowed. Maybe it's time to sort the real democrats from the phony Mideast ones.

The situation is messy, and we think the Iranians would have been smarter -- and better off -- not sending Mr. Moussavi into exile at dawn. Mr. Moussavi was pressing ahead with a nonbinding referendum to validate the Iranian vote. The ayatollah and Iranian Supreme Court declared the referendum illegal and warned he'd be prosecuted if he followed through. Mr. Moussavi persisted, even leading a violent mob last week to seize and distribute ballots. However, the proper constitutional route was to indict Mr. Moussavi and then arrest him for violating the law.

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TEGUCIGALPA, July 2 (Xinhua) -- Rival rallies for and against Honduras' post-coup government continued into their fifth day on Thursday, with at least three cities seeing large gatherings, local media reported.
Juan Barahona, leader of the United Workers Front (FUT), led marches backing Manuel Zelaya, the nation's president who was seized from his bed by hooded and heavily-armed soldiers on Sunday, and forced to board a plane to Costa Rica. The FUT has joined with other Zelaya sympathizers to create the People's Resistance Front.
Pro-Zelaya protests were seen in northern city San Pedro Sula and in the capital, Tegucigalpa. At least two pro-Zelaya demonstrators have been killed, with at least 60 others injured and over 270 arrested...
Supporters of Roberto Micheletti, who was sworn in as president just hours after Zelaya was ousted and forced into exile, have created the Civic Democratic Unit, which staged a sit-in in the capital on Tuesday, rallied in southern city Choluteca on Wednesday and is holding rallies in San Pedro Sula on Thursday.
Zelaya has said he will return to Honduras, accompanied by Jose Miguel Insulza, the secretary-general of the Organization of American States, and regional heads of state. The Organization of American States has adopted a resolution demanding that Zelaya be reinstated. The coup has been widely condemned by nations and multilateral bodies across the world.

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Demonstrations continued Thursday, including a march by thousands of Zelaya's supporters through downtown Tegucigalpa that started at the army headquarters. They painted slogans on scores of buildings, including a play on Micheletti's name, "Pinocheletti," that compares him to Augusto Pinochet, the leader of Chile's 1973 coup. At a pro-Zelaya march in Honduras' second city, San Pedro Sula, dozens of people were reported arrested.
Honduras for decades was practically a client state of the U.S. But Washington was unable to prevent this crisis and has not been able to resolve it. After Zelaya was seized, his wife, Xiomara Castro, and their youngest son took refuge at the home of the U.S. ambassador, where they remain. The U.S. Embassy has a no-contact policy with the Micheletti faction.
Honduras' de facto leaders have imposed a curfew on the country and suspended some civil rights. Micheletti defended those steps Thursday, saying they have fostered a decline in the crime rate. "You see, it's a good thing that the army and police are in the streets," he said. "It has brought down crime." He and other members of his provisional government refuse to describe the president's ouster as a coup, saying Zelaya was violating the constitution.
Martha Lorena Alvarado de Castro, sworn in Thursday as deputy foreign minister, said she and her allies were "absolutely surprised" by the international condemnation. "I think there is little understanding of our reality," she said in an interview in the courtyard of the presidential palace. "What's happening in Honduras now {curfew, loss of civil rights, demonstration???} is fabulous"

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Originally posted by Skywalken:
The people of Honduras are not only standing up to the marxist Zelaya, there also standing up to the marxist Obama and his lapdog that is the American mainstream media.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So we have competing demonstrations, ONE side of which is getting killed, beaten and jailed and the OTHER side is getting a free pass.

But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum???? And isn't that what Zelaya wanted? Not exactly the mark of a dictator, is it?

Like I said- what's the downside of holding a referendum? Wouldn't YOU want to see a referendum in Iran? And if so- what's the difference between one situation and th other?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum????

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum????

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Not if the only way to legally hold a referendum is at the behest of the Congress and the Congress doesn't order it. Also not if the opposition figured it would be rigged and decided not to participate. You might end up like the elections in Iran, where some districts had a turnout over 100%.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Not if the only way to legally hold a referendum is at the behest of the Congress and the Congress doesn't order it.

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Wow, I bow to your flawless logic.

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Do you have any inkling about Zelaya's level of support?

Do you have any idea what level of support Moussavi has?

Of course not.

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Originally posted by fivver:

Firsthand knowledge, nope. Don't need it.

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In the November elections, his supportes will take a majority of the seats and call for the referendum or his opponents will maintain control and not call for it. Either way the Hondurans will have spoken.

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The facts on the ground are that Zelaya forced this constitutional crisis by telling the other two branches to go screw themselves and they pushed back. Ever heard of balance of power? Their constitution is the LAW of the country. Not a set of objectives or guidelines but the LAW. Zelaya was the one ignoring it.

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So you don't need factual knowledge? Then how do you know that the votes in Honduras aren't rigged?

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How do you feel about stoning women? That's the LAW in some countries.

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Zelaya got elected the first time didn't he?

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Gee, I'm in favor of a law that does not allow one man to call for a referendum to make himself president for life

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so it immediately follows that I'm in favor of a law that allows stoning of women. Please pretend to have a brain.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, since the Iranian Supreme Leader said that vote was OK and refused a re-vote that's fine with you too.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The referendum was a NONBINDING VOTE to get a sense of whether the people favored allowing a President to run for a second term.

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You accuse Pres. Bush of doing the same thing and call for his impeachment, Why not Pres. Zelaya?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Can someone show me where it says "president-for-life" anywhere in ANY of the Honduran constitution or the proposed referendum?

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Is he trying to be "president-for-life" in the same way that Bloomberg declared himself mayor-for-life in New York? Where was all of your outrage when that happened?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Basically, we're talking about term limits.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I have, and I understand the intention.

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But I've always thought term limits were stupid for a number of reasons.

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