Opinions? by Wulfenstar

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
See, here is what I don't get....

Noone is arguing about what the author saw. Noone is saying that the actions he witnessed, and the behavior he describes, is incorrect.

Just that the way he put it was racist.

So, the behavior is somehow.....ok. But describing the behavior in a less than polite (PC) manner is not.

What most people here are saying is... "Thats the way blacks are, but we dont like it when you describe it that way." ?

It has nothing to do with politeness. It has to do with accuracy.

If the author had said, the black children I taught at this school, who lived in this neighborhood, acted this way during these years--THAT would be accurate and not racist.

What is racist is when someone says, "That's the way blacks are...." Or "That's the way blacks are and it is a terrible way to be."

Because a generalization like that is based on the assumptions that 1) ALL black students behave the way those students behaved, and 2) that behavior is unacceptable because it is not the way of the dominant culture.

Those underlying assumptions are racist, as in assuming that one race is superior to another. When Mr. Jackson generalize disapproved behavior to an entire race ("blacks") and then defined disapproved behavior based on nothing but cultural discomfort, he was racist.

If he doesn't want to be racist, he should refrain from generalizing to an entire race and judging an entire race.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 7:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Of course! After all, if someone just gave you a bunch of money, your entire outlook on life would change, right?

Right?"

Right Kwick...which is why welfare has worked so well...

and after-all, its all white peoples job to change the attitudes of them poor black people... right?

Cus it worked so well in Vietnam...

and Iraq....

Hearts and minds, right?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 8:01 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"If he doesn't want to be racist, he should refrain from generalizing to an entire race and judging an entire race."

Except, I saw the same thing.

So did at LEAST 5 other people I know who grew up in 3 different states...

After a while, the evidence starts to pile up and you CAN'T deny it.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 8:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Like I said,

I lost my pity a LONG time ago.

My hope now, is to try and stop its spread. To educate and to fix what is wrong.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 8:26 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"It has nothing to do with politeness. It has to do with accuracy."

BS.

What he wrote WAS accurate.

Just not in the way you were used to.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 8:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"If he doesn't want to be racist, he should refrain from generalizing to an entire race and judging an entire race."

Except, I saw the same thing.

So did at LEAST 5 other people I know who grew up in 3 different states...

After a while, the evidence starts to pile up and you CAN'T deny it.

So like Mr. Jackson, you are also willing to generalize to an ENTIRE race because YOU and your 5 buddies happen to have made similar observations in your limited experience in your limited lifetimes? And you are willing to judge an ENTIRE race based on your generalizations?

That is called racism, buddy.

You know, people who happen to have dark pigmentation in their skin are actually a very, very diverse group. People with dark skin who grew up in Canada behave very differently from people with dark skin who grew up in Africa. People with dark skin who grew up in Alabama do not behave the same way as dark skinned people in Chicago. You get the picture.

I have taught black students who behaved nothing like this description. And they weren't the exception. ALL the black students I have taught or encountered behaved with good manners and used standard English. Does that mean black students in general are well-mannered and used standard English?

Have you considered that the differences in behavior could be attributed to the way these people were raised and the way they were treated, as opposed to the color of their skin or the color of their eyes or the length of their toenails?

It is one thing to collect evidence. It is another to generalize your limited evidence to people and places you have not seen or heard, and probably never will.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
What he wrote WAS accurate.

It was accurate in the context of his classroom. It is NOT accurate in the context of
ALL classrooms containing black students.

See the difference?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 8:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Sure Kwick,

Then the answer is to take all of these poor kids, give them a million dollars and send them to a good private school.

Right?

You don't have to go that far.

You can start really, really small. It won't cost you a penny.

How about you start by not making statements that begin with, "Black kids...." or "Black students...."?

How about you give all students a chance by treating them as individuals instead of grouping them by the color of their skin and expecting them to conform to your very low opinion of them based on said color?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:02 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You don't have to go that far.

You can start really, really small. It won't cost you a penny.

How about you start by not making statements that begin with, "Black kids...." or "Black students...."?

How about you give all students a chance by treating them as individuals instead of grouping them by the color of their skin and expecting them to conform to your very low opinion of them based on said color?"

How about you try, JUST TRY, living in a ghetto for a year? Without a car, and without a bankroll? How about you give all the money and belongings you have away? (That way you dont have the option of leaving whenever you want?). Quit your job, work at MickyDs?

See how much far your reason and compassion will carry you? See if you want your kids growing up there? See how far your lofty ideals carry you when you had your last bike stolen, your last paycheck taken, and you just had your eye socket cracked?

And ask yourself, how racist you are? Do you want your child being part of that culture? Part of that environment?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:04 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You know, people who happen to have dark pigmentation in their skin are actually a very, very diverse group."

LOL OMG, really? I had NOOO fucking clue.

I never said it had to do with pigmentation... but culture.

And really, ask around. I KNOW it has nothing to do with dark skin....

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:13 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Really, I challenge ANYONE who questions that this is accurate to LIVE in it.

THEN, and ONLY THEN, can your opinion have weight.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, Wulf, it seems a LOT of people have come to conclusion I came to a long, long time ago --- you are racist, through and through.

"How about you try, JUST TRY, living in a ghetto for a year? Without a car, and without a bankroll? How about you give all the money and belongings you have away? (That way you dont have the option of leaving whenever you want?). Quit your job, work at MickyDs? "

Been there, done that, except it wasn't just one year --- and if I hadn't made an extreme effort, if I hadn't had certain advantages, I could still be there today.

But I'm not racist.

So your point is ... what, exactly ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:32 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sorry Rue, but I call bullshit on you.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Yeah, like you would know my life's story.

***************************************************************

So, this is what you do when backed into a corner - deny, deny, deny. Plug your ears, hum and say 'I can't hear you.'

Grow up, will 'ya ?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, pop quiz hotcunt...

52 blocks, what is it?

I can see when you post (the time) so Ill know if you looked it up on the internet.

Quick now...

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:42 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You forget, you little twit - I'm old enough to be your grandmother, at least. 52 blocks wasn't around when and where I grew up.

So, Mr 'no one ELSE can be from da' hood, only ME !' - what's a rumble ?

And here's any easy one for you - what's a gang rape ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:44 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Thought so.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:44 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You mean you can't answer my questions ? You friggin' pansy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 9:52 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No... what happened, oldnbusted? You saw a black person back in aught 77? When you still had hair and were living on Haight street?

I call bullshit on you cus you dont know shit.

And NOW, in this day and age, when your "ideals" have fallen short (and made the world worse), you are still pushing for them.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 10:05 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Like I said.....

I thought so.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 10:26 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Apparently Wulf thinks that if something was before HIS experience it didn't exist. In HIS mind, the whole world started with --- him. There WERE no such things as slums, or ghettoes. There WERE no targets for violence based on race - or sex. NO ONE ELSE ever had anything bad happen to them. NO ONE ELSE ever experienced poverty, hate, and violence.

I've given many clues as to where and when I came up.

For OTHER people's edification (since unlike a simple lab rat, Wulf is beyond learning), answering the challenges one by one:

How about you try, JUST TRY, living in a ghetto for a year?
Or seven.

Without a car ...
Check

... and without a bankroll
Check

How about you give all the money and belongings you have away
Since I started with nothing except the clothes on my back, and accumulated nothing, that would be a check - nothing to give away.

That way you dont have the option of leaving whenever you want
Check

Quit your job, work at MickyDs
Waitress at local dives - any place I could walk to.

In ADDITION - homeless from time to time. Walked to and from wherever I needed to get - or took a bus if they ran that way - through tough hoods (in my day they were called slums). As an extremely pale white person, let me tell you, I stood out. Walked and talked my way out of almost everything, except for the time when a guardian angel in the form of a BLACK store worker kept me from getting raped - by a WHITE guy. Saw bloody people wandering the street. Saw and heard guns. Saw fights.

And, unlike 'Wulf' I'm not prejudiced, and not looking for excuses to hate. I understand that THIS society has throw-away people. People too sick, too dark, too old, and even (still) too female. Prejudice exists - it HAS to. It's useful to some. It keeps people from seeing the naked calculation of profit. It keeps people from seeing who really benefits, and who really runs this place. It keeps short-sighted people like Wulf pitted against each other, thinking that if they are 1/100 of a step above someone else, they have 'won'.

It makes people like 'Wulf' useful tools. Which he is only too happy to be. Because it keeps him thinking he's a 'winner'.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I never said it had to do with pigmentation... but culture.

Which culture is that? The poor culture?

Then why not say, POOR students behave in X and Y manner?

You say, BLACK students. How am I supposed to interpret that except that you are talking about skin pigmentation?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 10:51 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Be fair... I never said any of these things. Just agreed with what was written by someone else.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 10:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Be fair... I never said any of these things. Just agreed with what was written by someone else."

Yes, you agreed with a racist.

That makes you a racist.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 11:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

LOL...

and what makes what hes said racist?

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Monday, July 27, 2009 12:19 PM

That's it - time for a chops busting.

Quote:
I don't care.

I don't care about "rebuilding their trust" or any of the other garbage.

I say you fucking better.

Look at the monstrosity that is the country and current government of Israel, look at the horrors and atrocities commited in their blind lashing out of what THEY perceive to be "self-defense" despite the near complete helplessness of the Palestinians they happen to be lashing out at - much as the Germans lashed out once upon a time, at them.

Consider it can go the same way, many government officials of that nation both past and present have proposed a Final Solution to their Palestinian problem, although not so often in as many words.

And now follow it down the road, to it's (without intervention) INEVITABLE conclusion.

Fast forward 50-60 years...

And see someone like me cussing the Palestinians for lashing out in the same damn way Israel lashed out at them, over the same fears, with the same reasons.

NOW do you see why this is important ?

If we do not break those chains, they will strangle us - one day strangle us to death.

And another thing...

Quote:
How about you try, JUST TRY, living in a ghetto for a year? Without a car, and without a bankroll? How about you give all the money and belongings you have away? (That way you dont have the option of leaving whenever you want?). Quit your job, work at MickyDs?

See how much far your reason and compassion will carry you? See if you want your kids growing up there? See how far your lofty ideals carry you when you had your last bike stolen, your last paycheck taken, and you just had your eye socket cracked?

And ask yourself, how racist you are? Do you want your child being part of that culture? Part of that environment?

I've been there, son - as you well know, in fact I can still describe every aspect of it enough to freak even YOU out, cause I've done before right here.

Reason and compassion is ALL YOU HAVE, those lofty ideals are ALL YOU GOT left, and if you let go of them, you *SINK* - unless you just happen to get lucky, and luck wasn't a factor - you have to know, or at least suspect just how ruthless a sumbitch I can be when I have to, just what kind of savage monster it takes to claw ones way out, up and over.

I had the ideals and compassion to begin with, in a vague sorta way, but it was that environment, and seeing what it did to folk, that engraved them into the stone of my very soul.

If your ideals fall the minute they are seriously challenged, then they weren't never truly your ideals in the first damned place, and using hardship as an excuse for racism is just fucking pathetic - boo fuckin hoo, so the savages that hurt you and took your stuff happened to be darker than you, so what ?

I've gone head to head with every color of the rainbow, ain't no damn different under the skin cept in the lies people tell themselves to set themselves up higher by stomping down others, and that's plain bullshit and moral cowardice of the same stripe as calling children "born evil" as some pathetic justification for not helping them when it fucking matters most, cause if you can lie to yourself that it wouldn't do no good cause they're evil, or cause they're this color, or this race, or that religion, then maybe you don't have to feel guilty about turning your back on them.

Quote:
Really, I challenge ANYONE who questions that this is accurate to LIVE in it.

THEN, and ONLY THEN, can your opinion have weight.

I have lived it, as up close and ugly as it comes, son.

Difference between you and me is I took the right LESSONS from it, which you clearly have not done - in time, you will understand, I think, but now you keep covering over old scabbed over wounds cause they won't heal, never understanding that ain't gonna happen till you dig out the rot and cleanse it.

You need to seriously examine your own precious preconceptions kid - till you do that, till you CAN do that, you ain't got no right to go challenging those of others cause someone like me is gonna cut you into pieces small enough to use as bait every time you try, capisce ?

Ruthless as I can be, it's my compassion that makes me who I am, and so damn dangerous, cause there is no tougher, purer human strength than simple kindness - fear, greed, divisiveness, racism, all these things are fleeting and pale shadows compared to the iron strength of Mercy.

Just cause I ain't got religion doesn't mean I don't BELIEVE in something, mano.

Oh, and just as an aside, it's the little ones as much as the big ones - was at the supermarket today with about $3.00 in bottle returns in hand, and a bit pressed for time, and standing in line, looking at the folk around me, I spotted a lady behind me with kids, who had a cartfull herself.

I turned and handed her the bag, and before she even tried to protest, locked eyes with her and said "You have children, I do not." - and to see that simple reaffirmation of belief in humanity blossom in their eyes was to receive a far greater thing than I handed over.

I nodded politely, and went on my merry.

One, teensy, tiny, two second interaction, and yet with a HUMAN value far out of proportion to any financial benefit or loss, which flows naturally from one to another just as easily, in fact, easier, than despair and misery.

You gotta ask yourself WHICH one you wanna be spreading, Wulf.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, July 27, 2009 12:54 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem,

I always respect your opinion.

What I can't stand are the wanna-be, fake "JUGGALOS".... (for reference, these are like Jews who dress up in SS outfits, or blacks who wear hoods and sheets)...

For example:

People like Rue, who want to claim the shit they have never been thru. Cus if they had, they wouldn't be the assCLOWNS they are.

Be well, my "ninjas".

*sigh

Rednecks who want to try to be tougher than whiggers, which is an oxymoron in and of itself.... wow.

To quote: "You aint never been to the ghetto, don't ever come to the ghetto.... cus you wouldn't understand the ghetto... so STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE GHETTO!" - Naughty by Nature

Reminds me of some douchebag that tried to talk tough to a Vietnam vet friend of mine...

Douchy didn't walk away, so much as crawl, with a broken nose and a popped neck.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 1:03 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wulf

You are desperate, for sure. Do you mean to say everyone who goes through shit ends up like YOU ?

That's a frakking poor excuse for yourself. You are a coward. And a liar.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 1:11 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Lol Whatever Rue.

You, fake, wannabe.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 1:29 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Btw Frem,

I would reply with a more thorough response.... I just keep getting distracted by the assclowns...

lol

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Monday, July 27, 2009 1:35 PM

Quote:

How about you try, JUST TRY, living in a ghetto for a year?

Try 15.

Quote:

Without a car, and without a bankroll?

Well, I guess I cheated, because I did have a car - a wrecked '83 Civic with no radio, no A/C, vinyl seats, a 4-speed manual, 1.3 liters of screaming power...

Quote:

How about you give all the money and belongings you have away?

Well, since I moved to Austin in my car with all my belongings wedged in the back, they wouldn't be getting much. And I had a total of around $700 that I'd scraped together by selling everything I owned to get here...

Quote:

(That way you dont have the option of leaving whenever you want?). Quit your job, work at MickyDs?

Is Micky D's air conditioned? 'Cause I came down here and worked as a tee-shirt printer for $6 an hour - as a temp, because it was the best I could find at the time. Work was in a metal storage unit with a 425-degree conveyor dryer in the middle of it. We put up a thermometer in the middle of the shop one summer day, just because we wondered how how it was. We were going outside to the parking lot to cool down, and it was 105º in the shade. Thermometer said it was 130º inside the shop, what with the metal roof and the dryer adding to the summer heat. We threw the thermometer away at that point, figuring it's best not to know...

Quote:

See how much far your reason and compassion will carry you?

Out of that hell, eventually.

Quote:
See if you want your kids growing up there?

Don't have kids.

Quote:
See how far your lofty ideals carry you when you had your last bike stolen, your last paycheck taken, and you just had your eye socket cracked?

Had two bikes stolen - the last one, they broke into my garage to get it. Had three cars broken into, and one of them stolen. Had a job go belly-up on me owing me 2 months of back pay; does that count as losing one's last paycheck? I've been afflicted with a chronic (recurring) disease that, when it flares up, leaves me legally blind in one eye; does that count?

Quote:

And ask yourself, how racist you are? Do you want your child being part of that culture? Part of that environment?

How racist am I? Well, since none of these things were done to me by black people, as far as I know, I tend to not be very racist, or at least I try not to be. As I said before, I don't have children, but I don't have a problem with the idea of children working hard to improve themselves. Do you?

Oh, and since you're handing out pop quizzes, try these:

What's "Cranklin Park"?

What's an Eastside Hummingbird?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

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Monday, July 27, 2009 1:44 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Never lived in Texas. Austin or otherwise...

So, I don't have the answer to your quiz.

But...

at least I have the balls to say it.

But if an "Eastside Humming bird" is anything like a "Ghetto bird"... thats a cop chopper.

ETA: btw... its STILL not the same if you CHOSE it.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 2:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Never lived in Texas. Austin or otherwise...

So, I don't have the answer to your quiz.

But...

at least I have the balls to say it.

But if an "Eastside Humming bird" is anything like a "Ghetto bird"... thats a cop chopper.

ETA: btw... its STILL not the same if you CHOSE it.

Ah - so in order for anyone else's opinion to be valid, they have to not only have done time in da 'hood, but they have to have been in YOUR particular 'hood, huh?

I don't recall Rue ever saying she was from your same 'hood, yet that didn't stop you from "calling bullshit" on her about her life. And she specifically said,

Quote:

You forget, you little twit - I'm old enough to be your grandmother, at least. 52 blocks wasn't around when and where I grew up.

So at least she had the balls to admit that she didn't know what the hell you were talking about. Your response was to call her a cunt, a fake, a liar, and a wannabe.

Yet YOU don't know dick about the ghettos in Austin, or anywhere else. So doesn't that make YOU a cunt, a fake, a liar, and a wannabe?

And what do you mean I "chose" it? I moved here because the only print shop in San Angelo closed its doors and left me jobless. I moved here with no job and no promises, figuring it couldn't be any worse than where I came from. It was, but I stuck it out. My "choice" involved living where I could afford to. So why did you "choose" to live in the ghetto? Surely you could have just left, right? After all, if you're so much about "personal responsibility", why didn't you leave your ghetto-ass house and get the fuck out way earlier?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

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Monday, July 27, 2009 2:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Wait.... so the behavior he describes, somehow, does not exist because you believe he is a "racist"? Is that your opinion?

Nah, I've never questioned the events described. And i made it clear in what way the author qualifies as a racist - check with a dictionary for a second opinion.

But let me give you an example of how his racism can colour the supposed 'truth' of his account, from his essay:

"There is something else that is striking
about blacks. They seem to have
no sense of romance, of falling in love."

And he goes on to extend this to a general all round lack of emotion and empathy. The generalisation to all 'blacks' is the racism talking of course, but putting that aside can we trust his interpretation of things? Can we trust a person who despises black people, and sees them as less than human, to see the moments when their humanity might be shining through?

Hmm.

You admire this man for his unashamed reporting of the facts Wulf, that much is clear - and I'm with you on that. What I'm not sure of is whether or not you care about the author's blatant racism - or even admire him on that score as well...

Heads should roll

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Monday, July 27, 2009 3:05 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You admire this man for his unashamed reporting of the facts Wulf, that much is clear"

Yes. I do. Un-apologetically, I do.

You do bring up a good point kpo, and one that I agree with. The author does cross a line in saying that blacks are incapable of human emotion.

I disagree with him on that point. Rather, I say, his experience has clouded his judgment and made him bitter. ALMOST to the point where he (the author) no longer see blacks as human.

In this, he and I diverge.

Bitterness can make you see people as less than human, which one must never do. True, its easy to do so. Animalistic behavior can make even the most rational person want to write off another group.

But you shouldn't and I don't.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Btw,

I bugs the hell out of me that even the most ardent folks here.... who say they want to make things better, ignore this.

Their answers are "Its the governments fault" or "Its the corporations fault"... but never look outside their windows and DO something about what is there.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Their answers are "Its the governments fault" or "Its the corporations fault"... but never look outside their windows and DO something about what is there."

Me, I'm all for going after the sumbi**h who's throwing the babies in the river. Not that you'd understand the reference. You'd actually have to READ people's posts to do that. Something which is beyond you. You're so blinded by what you ASSume, you can't see what is there.

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And yes, you are still a coward. And a liar.

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Friday, July 31, 2009 3:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
In this, he and I diverge.

Bitterness can make you see people as less than human, which one must never do. True, its easy to do so. Animalistic behavior can make even the most rational person want to write off another group.

But you shouldn't and I don't.

Cool. I personally like to give people the benefit of the doubt on this, until they come out themselves and say something overtly racist.

But I hope you understand the point of view of some of the other people here, on this difficult issue. To my mind, if facing up to the full scale of the problem is the first step towards fixing it, then weeding out all racist opinion from the arena of ideas is the second. As any policies inspired in any way by racism will be damaging and divisive, indeed, they are largely what we have to thank for the current nightmare situation.

One right-wing thought on this issue that I think needs consideration is that government provided welfare is part of the problem here: the thought that we as human beings don't need a whole lot of encouragement to be idle, I am quite receptive to, as somebody with a low opinion of human beings.

Heads should roll

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Friday, July 31, 2009 4:14 PM

I've been pushing "workfare" for 25 years now - the concept that yes, you WILL get your welfare check, but not for doing nothing at all. You are going to WORK for it. You're going to do SOMETHING productive, whether it's clean up a park, paint the benches, mow the grass, work in the library, work in a soup kitchen, or what have you.

Now, this isn't going to be a full-time job. It's going to be 20 hours a week - which leaves you PLENTY of time (and incentive) to get a better job. You're going to get basically a minimum-wage 40-hour paycheck for 20 hours of scut-work that you're going to hate. Or at least you SHOULD hate it. That's the kick in the ass to get you moving and get you on your way. Hey, if you're going to have to WORK for your money, you might as well be doing something less miserable for better pay, right?

Anyway, it's a thought. Doubt anything will ever come of it, though.

Another thing to get people "motivated" - REQUIRE them to go to classes one day a week. Job interview practice, resumé classes, job-search classes with online resources, etc. If you want your welfare and/or unemployment check, you go to classes. If you want your food stamps, you go to cooking classes to show you how to make nutritious meals with the stuff you can get with food stamps.

This isn't intended to SHAME people, but to HELP them. If they're ashamed and if they're bored and hate this stuff, then more power to them; by all means, move up to a better gig and get off the welfare rolls!

Sure, there are going to be people to say they have no skills. Bullshit. EVERYBODY can do SOMETHING. Typing. Filing. Washing windows. Cleaning toilets. And if you're content doing that kind of "make-work" for minimum wage, feel free to keep doing it; the world needs ditch-diggers, too...

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Friday, July 31, 2009 10:20 PM

Problem with that, Mikey - was the execution.

See, I saw a couple folks victimised by it, and every single one turned to crime - EVERY SINGLE ONE.

There was Lydia, who's mandatory classes were held 17 miles away, several miles off the bus route, and involved training on office PCs and software so laughably outdated it was all but pointless - and child care expenses plus taxi fare left her in a bad financial position where she HAD to dump the program and go back to prostitution in order to eat.

And let's not even go there about the night the taxi company refused to dispatch a cab to that neighborhood and she had to call ME for a rescue, and then hide from a pack of gangmembers who decided to burn a discarded sofa in the middle of the street for entertainment, and I had to yank her into the passenger seat while spinning tire up the street while they pelted my car with stuff...

Or James, a rarity already in being a single father and damn near illiterate, close enough it makes no nevermind, who'd have to be literate in the first damn place to fill out the paperwork, much less get any use out of the classes, and who couldn't find ANYONE trustworthy to watch his kid unless he blew his entire check on daycare, which would render the whole exercise useless - he went back to pushing drugs.

NONE of these programs ever take into account the ugly realities of no transportation, no available childcare - often enough resulting in working poor folk leaving kids way to young for it home alone to fend for themselves, caught between the scylla of social services and the charybdis of being too poor to buy food.

And where does the car insurance payment come from, or the payment for the phone bill, on top of the rent, heat, water... on minimum fucking wage, on in the case of "workfare" programs, even LESS ?
(Or the car, and bribes for emissions-inspection-registration-tags, which is WAY worse in MD than anywhere else I've seen.)

And in a rare case of when they DO take into account those realities, I guarantee you that every mandatory appearance will be at an office as far away from you (and very specifically, as far from any bus stop) as humanly possible while in the same county just to wear you out, grind you down, and make you give up - I've BEEN through that, over my medical care, complete with dragging a friggin hoffman external fixator through snow and slush in midwinter thank you very much, and as such I have a DAMNED low opinion of that game.

So while the concept itself ain't so bad - every execution of it I have seen, personally and from point blank range more than I cared to - has been outright malicious and set up not to help those people, but to drive them off the rolls by any means necessary, uncaring of their survival or that of their children.

Not to mention the bitter and intentional humiliation often dished out by these so called programs leaves folk at a mental breaking point, like the lady down the street who wouldn't TAKE help from no one despite being in dire straits indeed, to the point where I would sneak her kids sandwiches on the sly whenever I could - poor that I was, damned if I could watch that and live with myself, and it ain't like PB&J spread thin costs that bloody much, neither.

You know what'd help a lot though ?

Have the freakin welfare system ITSELF employ them as priority - you could train a bloody kangaroo do be an office drone, and having seen most of the personnel they DO employ (often with ridiculous levels of "required" qualifications, to prevent exactly this) I dare say most of the poor folk would do a better job, and THEN they get a leg up with actual job experience they can put on a resume - wouldn't be room for everyone, but hell, just that many people, six months at a time, would elevate a lot of em from the rolls to working poor, and office drones make at least enough to live on.

Oh yes, and of course do SOMETHING for the redemption of the folk who had the misfortune to get CAUGHT doing the shit you NEED TO DO in order to survive down there, and have a criminal record thus rendering them almost unemployable - do we really have to punish them FOREVER ?!
I mean, isn't there a point where they've paid their fucking debt ?

Just sayin...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, August 1, 2009 3:07 AM

Frem, I've got a feeling you and I could have a LONG conversation about this, and probably even come up with some workable solutions. Would they help everybody? Nope. Nothing ever will. But they'd damn sure do a better job than what we've got.

You talk about training these folk to work in the welfare offices and such - that's pretty much what I'm suggesting; I just didn't word it well. Your local, state, and federal buildings and grounds get people assigned to them first - "office drones", janitorial help, groundskeepers, etc. I know there are going to be people who decry this as tantamount to slave labor or indentured servitude, but it's not; you're free to leave and do better on your own at any time.

One BIG thing that would have to change would be the confrontational attitude that seems to always rear its head between those who need help and those who are the gatekeepers. From what I've seen, they tend to despise each other. How do you get both sides to see this as a collaborative effort?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

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Saturday, August 1, 2009 11:34 AM

Quote:
One BIG thing that would have to change would be the confrontational attitude that seems to always rear its head between those who need help and those who are the gatekeepers. From what I've seen, they tend to despise each other. How do you get both sides to see this as a collaborative effort?

Start with a housecleaning, hire some decent supervisors and start FIRING people who go out of their way to use the system as a roadblock instead of a leg up - if they don't genuinely want to help those folk, then they can damn well find a new line of work, yanno ?

I got sick of being jerked around, lied to, and as you well know, I happen to be the type that will fight on to the very last breath, and when the office supervisor cussed out my LAWYER and hung up on him, I managed to barter some transportation and went down to North Broadway to the main office and got in the face of the big cheese personally by cornering her outside her office - and then when she denied I had a case on file at all, I pulled it out of my bag and tossed it to her, damn fools had piss poor security, an ancient terminal-based network, and I'd been in the building for half an hour prior to that, meh.

It should NOT take, should not HAVE to take, physical, personal threats to get these folk to do their job, and spending three days dragging that nightmare pincushion thing through the snow filled streets to collect paperwork for the bastards only to have them "lose" (third time I actually dumpster dived it and found the "lost" forms) it by throwing it in the trash was completely over the top by any stretch of the imagination.

The lies, obfuscation, harrassment and general chicanery the folk employed by welfare offices engage in is quite legendary, although seemingly not newsworthy, and many of the supervisors are under pressure to let it slide, or even encourage it - and don't even get me started on that faith based shit where they manipulate folks into their stupid little cult and only help them in exchange for tithe - another dirty little secret the mainstream news ain't bothered to cover.

And regardless of any lip service to the contrary, the very moment you get your first paycheck, nine times outta ten guess what happens to ALL the help, neh ?

Actually, it's even worse than that, AFDC and SSI will actually send you a fucking BILL for the last months benefits, before you even get to CASH that first damn check, even if it's for five measly hours!

And I better stop now afore my temper gets the better of me - yeah, we could have a long conversation indeed, but best to have it somewhere away from breakable stuff, this is a berserk-button issue with me, it is.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 10, 2009 7:21 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I keep pushing the issue, because, like everything else... its the ambush down the road.

10 years from now, these kids are going to be adults. And if they arn't in jail, or dead, they will be walking amongst us.

So, what are we going to do?

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Monday, August 10, 2009 7:33 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I hear alot of TALK, but no action.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 6:45 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I keep pushing the issue, because, like everything else... its the ambush down the road.

10 years from now, these kids are going to be adults. And if they arn't in jail, or dead, they will be walking amongst us.

So, what are we going to do?

Let them walk amongst us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I hear alot of TALK, but no action.

What exactly are YOU doing that's so actiony?

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
10 years from now, these kids are going to be adults. And if they arn't in jail, or dead, they will be walking amongst us.

So, what are we going to do?

10 years ?

Wulfie, I been in this game longer than that, some of em are ALREADY walking amongst us, and working like happy grinning psychotic bees at wrecking the everliving SHIT out of the system that crapped on them for the first eighteen.

And there's three more generations behind those - the first of which got the torch passed to them Feb 2009 - and every damn one, the collective piece of it on *my* side is twice the size of the last.

Look up exponential growth, and see why I ain't too damn worried about it just yet.

-F

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 8:57 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wulf

You spend an awful lot of time blaming 'them' for your life. I'm guessing you've been doing it since you were small. And with your piss-poor ability to learn anything new, you'll do it till you hit your grave.

So, let me ask you this - and see if you can answer.

If you get to blame 'them' for everything that went wrong in your life - who do they get to blame for everything that went wrong in their lives ?

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Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:38 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Mike, Frem

You are forgetting something - there are not enough living-wage jobs in the country for everyone.

With roughly 10% unemployment real unemployment may be in the 15-20% range, since unemployment figures only count people who are currently receiving unemployment checks.

Our economy is BASED ON there not being enough jobs to go around. If you want to change welfare, you have to change the economy.

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Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:13 PM