Aesop's Fabulous Rook by piratenews

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Aesop's Fabulous Rook

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Sunday, August 9, 2009 11:30
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Saturday, August 8, 2009 4:20 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6753086.ece

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 4:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am suspicious.

Once the rocks were placed in the enclosure with the bird, the bird immediately picked them up and started filling the container with stones to raise the water level.

The bird did not pause, did not ponder the stones, did not consider his options and come to a great conclusion.

The bird behaved as though he'd already been taught to fill the container with stones.

I would need more information about this phenomenon before drawing any conclusions.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 4:54 PM

DREAMTROVE

Why?

This is hardly rocket science. A crow is a pretty intelligent animal, this is going to occur to a random crow. I don't think it approaches "most intelligent feat by a bird" or even by a crow. It's clever, yes, but your average mouse or squirrel can figure it out. I've seen more complex problems solved by a caterpillar.

Not to slight the crow, he's clever. But crows are clever, we already know that. You accepted life long that birds built nests, that ants build cities and farms, wasps make pottery and cover their homes with camo, draw maps, butterfly memorize the entire planet, and cuttlefish communicate faster than any human ever could.

If a crow got online and posted that himself, I'd be impressed. But I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Sorry, long term country mouse here saying I've seen tons of stuff like this. Humans, not so special as we like to think. Actually, it takes most humans longer to solve abstract problems than it takes a lot of animals.

Speaking of fables:

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 5:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Anthony, if that one gives you pause, then this one really ought to bake your noodle: Crows recognize individual human faces. And they apparently hold a grudge. Forever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html

I heard interviews with a couple researchers on NPR. One of the ways they tried to "trick" the crows was to wear a mask upside-down. The crows would look at them, then turn their heads upside-down, and THEN squawk at the researchers, scolding them for being mean to them in the past.

I think animals in general are far more aware of us than we tend to be of them.

Mike

Sweeping generalizations are always wrong!

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 5:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Dreamtrove, this wouldn't even occur to the average human child.

I do not think the crow would have figured this out on his own. However, I'd love to see a video of a crow figuring out such a thing if it was indeed possible.

This is not that video. This video does not allow me to reach the conclusion that the crow figured this out.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 5:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Mike, an animal recognizing something that made it feel badly is something I am quite prepared to believe. I do think the scenario of the bird turning its head upside down and going, "WTF, it's THAT asshole," is funny.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 6:07 PM

DREAMTROVE

I'm sure there are a lot of other videos out there.

It does seem quick, but I doubt the crow is trained. The guy saw the crow figure out complex things before, tried this one on him, and then later decided to film it. But this is a video of the crow doing it not for the first time.

Watching a mouse outsmart a mousetrap for the first time is fascinating. He'll actually study the thing from a mechanical persective, check it out from every angle, figure the weight points and triggers, and then how to get the cheeze anyway. I've watched this happen, it's really quite amazing. It's like he's born with a knowledge of physics, but I'm sure that's not the case: He taught himself, at some point.

Humans aren't all that intelligent as problem solvers, and the human brain isn't fully formed until 7, and the mind until 12. Animals are forced to develop faster by evolutionary pressures. The mouse described above was probably a year old or so. A one year old human child wouldn't stand a chance. Most college students would probably walk right into the sucker. To be fair, probably so would most mice.

There would never have been a need to build a better mousetrap if mice weren't smart.

Crows are famous for being smart. Catching an animal in the act of figuring something out for the first time is tricky, and usually, you don't have it on camera.

This reminds me of an old ships log of of a captain with a parrot that would greet each person it met with "good day sir" or "good day ma'am" except one guy, whom he would address as "hey there ugly."

But parrots are also quite smart. A recent discovery I was reading: They don't naturally live to be 120-150. They've figure out a balanced diet, which they eat in sequence and variation. If the diet is lost from one generation to the next, or a bird is put on a set standard birdfeed diet, their life expectancy drops down to that of a typical bird.

As for animal intelligence, the general tests show humans as somewhere among the most intelligent, comparable to whales, dolphins and elephants, but behind squids and octopuses. If a rodent lived long enough, it would be hard to tell if we could keep up. Typically they start out ahead of us, and remain so age for age until their death.

There's a great video out there somewhere of raccoons, who are bears, not rodents iirc, raiding someone's garbage, and pulling out the recyclables and sorting them. It's not strictly staged, they were trained to do it, but it's impressive that they could grasp the categories.

Dogs are a fascinating study in intelligence, as they run the full gamut. The smartest dogs are at the low-human end, overall, but higher than avg humans at some tasks. The dumbest dogs place low among lesser insects and lower life forms. Some insects aren't dumb.

Humans, if you ask me, have one advantage, and one alone: written language. Without it, we're not a notable animal. Watch the scratched on the walls of rats and mice, they're starting towards some form of tally, maybe towards an early cuneiform. Come back in 100,000 years, the perpetually dumber humans will work unknowingly for their murine masters :)

No one comments on the mouse-frog...

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 6:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike, I posted all of those potential avatars for you...

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 6:09 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Mike, an animal recognizing something that made it feel badly is something I am quite prepared to believe. I do think the scenario of the bird turning its head upside down and going, "WTF, it's THAT asshole," is funny.

That was my first reaction, too.

Still, it's pretty damned amazing to think that not only do these birds recognize us as individual people, but that they also REMEMBER us AND spread the word to their friends! The one researcher talks about one particularly heinous mask he wore, and how the number of crows "scolding" him mushroomed far beyond the crows that he had ever harassed while wearing that mask.

It's a pretty fascinating read, really. And my estimation of crows went up considerably.

Mike

Sweeping generalizations are always wrong!

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 6:11 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike, I posted all of those potential avatars for you...

And I appreciate that. I'm still deciding. :)

This one cracks me up a bit, too:

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Saturday, August 8, 2009 9:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I knew mosta this, but not the recognize human faces bit, and there's one of my ex's I believe I prolly owe an apology now, bleh.

See, I attract crows, although it's never occured to me that many of em might be the SAME crows, and one day while she was at work some of em came down and looted a bag of chips from the rack in front of the gas station where she worked, and made off with it.

Then tried to break it open by dropping it, and then when that didn't work, by dropping rocks ON it, which did.

She calls me up cussin at me cause "my" crows are "harrassing her at work", as if *I* had anything to do with it ? meh.

(FYI, they can also be taught to make lewd-sounding noises at girls, just so ya know

)

-Frem

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Sunday, August 9, 2009 11:30 AM

DREAMTROVE

lol@man's best friend

re: training birds on girls: if they can learn to undo straps, I'm in :)

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