PETA Safe Meat? by AnthonyT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have never understood the moral difference between killing plants and killing animals.

Or dismembering plants, which is what they do more often.

How is the torture of plant life different from the torture of mammals? Mark me down as confused.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 10, 2009 6:55 AM

Plants don't have pain receptors, for one.

And in many cases, you can harvest from a plant without killing it. Or eat stuff that's already fallen off the plant...

My diet is very restrictive. <_<

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Monday, August 10, 2009 7:05 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I could theoretically harvest from an animal without killing it, although that would be LESS humane.

I have never been convinced that plants don't have a damage detection/response system, which is what pain is. It's certainly not conveyed by a nervous system, but plants do seem to respond to stimuli.

Of course, the issue of vat-grown flesh obviates any concern about pain or killing (one would presume.)

I expect that vegetable matter may eventually be grown in a similar fashion. (It may prove to be more efficient to grow 1 ton of lettuce cells in a big vat than it is to grow it in an acre of land.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 10, 2009 7:55 AM

I guess what I see is a plant will grow back leaves and fruits and flowers.

I don't really have much issue with meat-eaters, most of my family eats meat.

Though I think that eating things that grow back would be most preferable. Lizard tails, for one. Or there's some cultures in Africa that keep cows, but rather than killing the cow, a valuable resource, they drink the blood of the cow. Only problem is, you have to be careful not to bleed out the cow...

It's easier to not kill the plant, I think. Which is why I prefer it. If you eat, you're going to be killing cells no matter what. If I considered killing any cell a crime, then I'd have to consider merely living a crime, because my own cells will commit programmed cell death for the sake of the growth and health of the rest of me. I would be a murderer a million times over every day, and that would be without eating.

There has to be reasonable limits on what is and isn't ethical. And I think harvesting a leaf composed of some number of cells is better than killing the entire organism for eating.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 8:27 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

You know, this reminds me of a book I read recently about Ghenghis Khan.

Apparently, his warriors used to both drink the milk of mares they rode, and also to drink the blood of their male horses.

This allowed them to travel light on raids since if they were going to be riding for only a week to ten days, they didn't need a supply chain.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 10, 2009 8:39 AM

Neat. :)

I'm not proposing people go out and poke their cows with needles here, I'm just saying, a little pain (or no pain, depending on what you think of plants) versus outright killing? I think most of our food would prefer to remain alive if there's no permanent damage and no alternative. And we do need to eat.

So I'm okay with eating plants. I feel bad though when I eat meat, because the way the system currently works, the animal was most likely killed for it.

I might actually support growing meat in a vat. There's just two problems: 1) the very real likelyhood that drugs will be slipped or engineered into the grown meat, and 2) what happens to all of our livestock when we no longer have a use for them? You're not going to see wilderness preserves for cows, sheep, pigs, and chicken.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 8:40 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I have never understood the moral difference between killing plants and killing animals.

Or dismembering plants, which is what they do more often.

How is the torture of plant life different from the torture of mammals? Mark me down as confused.

And many folk don't consider the hundreds of thousands of tiny little rodents and the like that are killed by commercial harvesting operations.
I have no moral opposition either way, for the most part. I am appalled at how many resources the cattle industry uses, but I also like beef. I prefer bison or turkey, but that's a whole other thing. If the cells could just be grown, without using gallons and gallons of water, without clearing out pasture after pasture, without danger of the meat being contaminated by fecal matter, without injecting it with an overabundance of chemicals and hormones to get the 'most' out of a single cow, then I think the world would benefit greatly. Beef production causes a really quite terrible amount of pollution and other environmental devastation to meet market demand. Peta notwithstanding, it would be a good idea. And hey, once perfected, every steak would be tender and tasty, every slice of bacon would have just the right meat-to-fat ratio, a whole turkey's worth of meat could be white meat or dark meat or both, of perfect texture and consistency, and always cook up juicy. Man, that would be great.

[/sig]

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Monday, August 10, 2009 8:47 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"So I'm okay with eating plants. I feel bad though when I eat meat, because the way the system currently works, the animal was most likely killed for it."

Hello,

I just realized the fallacy of the 'not killing the plant' discussion we've been having, and I bought into it from the get-go without thinking.

I'm not a farmer, so someone help me out...

Do we still do crop rotation? Or lay fields fallow?

Because if so... The plants are totally going to die anyway. I think only trees aren't rotated out?

On the issue of perfect meat, every time? I am totally into that. And I also like Bison and Turkey! Woot to the other Red and White meats!

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 10, 2009 12:08 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
And hey, once perfected, every steak would be tender and tasty, every slice of bacon would have just the right meat-to-fat ratio, a whole turkey's worth of meat could be white meat or dark meat or both, of perfect texture and consistency, and always cook up juicy. Man, that would be great.

Dang, now you made me hungry!

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Monday, August 10, 2009 12:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Definately with PR on this one, the whole concept is pretty good.

Still down the road a ways, and ethical concerns to sort out, but I would also like to see cloned blood and organs for medical useage, as well.

But cloneburgers ?
Hell yes, I got get with that.

-F

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Monday, August 10, 2009 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"So I'm okay with eating plants. I feel bad though when I eat meat, because the way the system currently works, the animal was most likely killed for it."

Hello,

I just realized the fallacy of the 'not killing the plant' discussion we've been having, and I bought into it from the get-go without thinking.

I'm not a farmer, so someone help me out...

Do we still do crop rotation? Or lay fields fallow?

Because if so... The plants are totally going to die anyway. I think only trees aren't rotated out?

On the issue of perfect meat, every time? I am totally into that. And I also like Bison and Turkey! Woot to the other Red and White meats!

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Well, my onions and garlic ain't coming back, and my tomatoes gave up the ghost, so there goes some of that theory...

Also, I know there are lots and lots of trees that are "rotated" - new ones are planted when old ones are harvested. So do we stop using wood, too?

Personally, I'd prefer it if we in general ate LESS meat. I know I'm trying to do my part, but as has been noted elsewhere in the past few weeks, what *I* do means nothing...

Mike

Sweeping generalizations are always wrong!

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Monday, August 10, 2009 1:25 PM

Oh poop, can't I be just irrational and bleeding heart about the "poor likkle animals"? I'm not hurting anyone. I doubt the meat industry cares about my couple of dollars.

Every time I eat meat, I feel like I could be eating one of my pets. It makes me feel bad, so I don't do it.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 1:35 PM

Oh, you can absolutely feel that way, Byte.

Truth be told, if I had to kill and prep my own meat to eat, I'd be vegetarian as well. I'll butcher the hell out of some fruits and vegetables, but I'm not killing and cleaning animals. And I don't want to visit the processing plant, either.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 1:39 PM

I'm not mad, I just ran out of rational explanations for what is ultimately an intuitive decision that I made.

Just so you all know. Go on eating meat. :)

With my luck, there actually will be a god, and they'll be just a big old plant. Maybe a tree...

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Monday, August 10, 2009 1:45 PM

PENGUIN

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Monday, August 10, 2009 5:15 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I have never understood the moral difference between killing plants and killing animals.

Or dismembering plants, which is what they do more often.

How is the torture of plant life different from the torture of mammals? Mark me down as confused.

And many folk don't consider the hundreds of thousands of tiny little rodents and the like that are killed by commercial harvesting operations.
I have no moral opposition either way, for the most part. I am appalled at how many resources the cattle industry uses, but I also like beef. I prefer bison or turkey, but that's a whole other thing. If the cells could just be grown, without using gallons and gallons of water, without clearing out pasture after pasture, without danger of the meat being contaminated by fecal matter, without injecting it with an overabundance of chemicals and hormones to get the 'most' out of a single cow, then I think the world would benefit greatly. Beef production causes a really quite terrible amount of pollution and other environmental devastation to meet market demand. Peta notwithstanding, it would be a good idea. And hey, once perfected, every steak would be tender and tasty, every slice of bacon would have just the right meat-to-fat ratio, a whole turkey's worth of meat could be white meat or dark meat or both, of perfect texture and consistency, and always cook up juicy. Man, that would be great.

[/sig]

Most likely it would taste like tofu.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Monday, August 10, 2009 5:44 PM

AG05

Quote:
Truth be told, if I had to kill and prep my own meat to eat, I'd be vegetarian as well. I'll butcher the hell out of some fruits and vegetables, but I'm not killing and cleaning animals. And I don't want to visit the processing plant, either.

I hunt whitetail and doves here in Texas. It's one thing to buy a steak in the store, or at a butchers, and quite another thing to have killed the animal yourself, gutted it, cleaned it, butchered it, and eaten the final product. It's not something I do very often (2-3 deer per season and my freezer is full) but it certainly gives a person a healthy respect for the meal in front of them.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 6:11 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Byte,

I feel very much the same way about my belief in the divinity. I can't prove God exists or even present any convincing arguments about it. And I've stopped trying.

It made me feel much more honest about my faith. I sort of feel sorry for the people out there who feel the need to prove God.

It's enough that you feel something, or believe something. If it's not based on logic, it's totally okay to say so, and keep right on believing it. I dare say it shows you to be much more sophisticated than people who grasp for an endless stream of reasonings.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 10, 2009 6:15 PM

Let's not go THAT far. I just got owned on the internet by logic. <_<

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Monday, August 10, 2009 6:16 PM

I suppose it's a step up. I have a couple other objections to meat:

1. I don't think it's healthy
2. Diseases that could infect an animal or carcass might still infect a synthetic mean
3. The amount of energy required to produce a pound of meat is astronomically higher than that of its core diet equivalent.

If someone can solve these three problems, then I have no personal interest, but that's a matter of taste, I think it would be fine. The resulting product should be the chickenfruit. It tastes like chicken because it is chicken, but it can't carry salmonella, and takes the same amount of energy to produce as a mango, and the food value thing, not so important, it's still better than a lot of stuff people put in their bodies. Would be nice if you could alter some of the key proteins so they could be digested by humans <-- this innovation is going to the major game changer of the 21st century.

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Monday, August 10, 2009 8:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA

OOOooooh, a Mcnugget TREE!

Dude, that's just MADE OF WIN!
(especially if the sap tastes like honey!)

-F

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Monday, August 10, 2009 10:18 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Most likely it would taste like tofu.

Cloned muscle tissue would taste like coagulated soy milk? You base that conclusion on...?

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1. I don't think it's healthy

Except to many higher brain functions, as more studies seem to prove every year. The brain needs fats and proteins, it's just a fact. While it may be possible to get all its fats and proteins from things like avocados and soy beans, it's much easier and more efficient to 'steal' the ready-made proteins from other animals. Now maybe most people take in more ready-made protein that strictly necessary, and usually far too much fat with it, but saying meat in and of itself isn't healthy is to deny the evolution and composition that makes up the human creature.
Just think, lean muscle tissue that wasn't prone to being stringy or tough, because it was grown without much fat but never actually flexed. Solve a lot of problems with the fat content in some meat, and probably be pretty tasty.

Quote:
2. Diseases that could infect an animal or carcass might still infect a synthetic mean

Theoretically, but not probably. Lack of exposure to fecal matter alone would drastically cut the likelihood. The fact that meat wouldn't be coming from an animal that was being fed other animals cuts it even more. Since contamination would likely interfere with the process, proper cell-growth would probably work ideally in a sterile environment, cutting it even more. Meat being, more or less, grown fresh, with no need for butchering processes before packaging, cuts not only exposure to outside elements, but time for possible decay and grossness.

Quote:
3. The amount of energy required to produce a pound of meat is astronomically higher than that of its core diet equivalent.

I'm not sure if you mean the possible growing of meat, or the ranching and production of meat. either way, You're probably right, but as I pointed out earlier, if it used only half the resources that currently go into meat production, clone-grown meat would be a wild and vast improvement.

I can totally see god being a tree. I mean, they live longer than almost anything on Earth...

[/sig]

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Monday, August 10, 2009 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connor:

Vegetarian diets are healthier anyway. Maybe that's why I'm unfit and my sister's so much more active than I am.

Not necessarily.

You can eat a ton of sugary and starchy crap as a vegetarian while sitting on the couch all day and be as overweight and unhealthy as anyone else - who doesn't move and overeats. Plenty of unhealthy vegetarians and vegans in the world.

It's down to moderation, proper nutrition and exercise.

I don't know how hormones and other craps that they put into meat play a role. That likely has its own negative impacts.

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:27 AM

NCBROWNCOAT

Trying to add a little humor. What I meant was it would likely be very bland and not the taste and consistency of filet mignon. But you could always add a little rosemary,

Addendum: My attempts at humor usually fail in real life too.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AG05:
Quote:
Truth be told, if I had to kill and prep my own meat to eat, I'd be vegetarian as well. I'll butcher the hell out of some fruits and vegetables, but I'm not killing and cleaning animals. And I don't want to visit the processing plant, either.

I hunt whitetail and doves here in Texas. It's one thing to buy a steak in the store, or at a butchers, and quite another thing to have killed the animal yourself, gutted it, cleaned it, butchered it, and eaten the final product. It's not something I do very often (2-3 deer per season and my freezer is full) but it certainly gives a person a healthy respect for the meal in front of them.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

Oh, that's all fine and good, and I love a good hunk of venison - which is why I have in-laws! They just LOOOOOOVVVE hunting, and I always get some of the meat without having to do any of the work. :)

I like my guns, I enjoy shooting, but my targets are of the distinctly un-alive variety. And I already have a healthy respect for the meal in front of me - if it's a salad, and I grew most of the ingredients myself! :)

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:12 PM

I hurt my back in March, and moving around has become some manner of difficulty. I try to go for a walk for about 30 minutes every day, and that helps, but I'm loosing weight and I'm pretty sure it's muscle mass.

Which is sad, because for a while there I was doing 100 push-ups a day and getting into pretty good shape. Kind of disappointing to see all that progress lost, and now my legs are all enfeebled too, and my lung capacity is shot because I can't go hiking like I used to. Blah.

Anyway, I wanted to comment on my personal experience with veganism, which is that I have a metabolism like a HUMMINGBIRD. This may explain a lot for anyone who thinks I tend to be somewhat perky. If I don't eat a lot of carbohydrates, I can lose ten pounds in a week, and I only weigh 120 lbs right now. It's actually difficult for me as is to get all the daily calories I need.

Well, I'm surviving, and I've also started to take vitamin supplements and iron. That should help.

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:52 PM

Statistically inescapable:

Vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. About 10 years. I think that says it all.

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 3:43 PM

Ah, but do they really LIVE longer, or does it just feel that way?

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:40 PM

Age 114: Vegetarian

Two different colored eyes...

Age 128?: eggs and beer

Not sure what this says

Here are claims I doubt:

Not 120

I'm sorry, but it's okay to be 80 or 90, and mobile, that's good. But an armenian man years ago taught me to read faces. After that, I realized that he was 98. But it's little clues you can't avoid, they just come with age. The obvious ones aren't so certain.

Nowhere near 114:

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:21 PM

Sorry to hear about your injury.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Anyway, I wanted to comment on my personal experience with veganism, which is that I have a metabolism like a HUMMINGBIRD. This may explain a lot for anyone who thinks I tend to be somewhat perky. If I don't eat a lot of carbohydrates, I can lose ten pounds in a week, and I only weigh 120 lbs right now. It's actually difficult for me as is to get all the daily calories I need.

Is that due to veganism, though, or in large part due to genetics? I have a guy in my office who's metabolism seems to be very similar to yours. He has great difficulty putting any weight on, is very energetic, eats a lot of food simply because he needs it. And he's definitely not a vegan.

I'm not disputing that a healthy vegetarian/vegan diet might actually have advantages over meat-eating. (Longer lifespan, apparently?) I'm just saying that vegetarian/vegan does not automatically equal healthy.

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Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:13 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Statistically inescapable:

Vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. About 10 years. I think that says it all.

Not to go all cliche on you, but cites please? Here's what I was able to come up with on the subject:
"low-protein diets (associated with vegetarians) reduce calcium absorption and may have a negative impact on skeletal health... "

"There's a big, beautiful plant kingdom out there; you ought to be able to dine healthily on this botanical bounty. With perfect knowledge, you can indeed eat like a king from the vegetable world. But ordinary people are not nutrition professionals. While some vegetarians have the full skinny on how to watch their riboflavin and vitamins D and B12, many more haven't a clue. This is one reason that vegetarians, in a study of overall nutrition, scored significantly lower than nonvegetarians on the USDA's Healthy Eating Index."

"vegans skew the stats, because their strict avoidance of meat, eggs and dairy products can lead to deficiencies in iron, calcium and vitamin B12."

"researchers warn that infants breast-fed by vegans have lower levels of vitamin B12 and DHA (an omega-3 fatty acid), important to vision and growth."

So far, no studies on the lifespans have surfaced, but I might be googling the wrong thing. In the meantime, here's some statements I found about the brain and its function:

"Most neurotransmitters are made from amino acids obtained from the protein in food you consume... Amino acids that come from the protein you eat are the building blocks of your brain’s network... Not only do brain cells compete with body cells for amino acids (body cells pull amino acids from the bloodstream more easily), amino acids must pass the protective blood-brain barrier. To top it all off, amino acids must be escorted through the blood-brain barrier by a certain molecule on a certain pathway in a certain vehicle."

"A meal high in protein raises tyrosine levels in the blood and brain – causing neurons to manufacture norepinephrine and dopamine, two neurotransmitters that promote alertness and activity. Tyrosine is crucial to brain power and alertness in another way; it's needed for your body to make active thyroid hormones. Low blood levels of tyrosine are associated with an underactive thyroid gland."

"Protein's networking role is even more dramatic and direct in the developing brain, when nerve cells are migrating from their birthplace. One particular protein acts as a molecular guide, somewhat like a dog herding a flock of sheep. It directs migrating nerve cells to their correct locations, where they link up with each other as they settle in. This protein guides the cell bodies themselves, as well as the growth of the long axons that extend from nerve cell bodies toward other nerve cells."

"Even in the best of times your brain is often malnourished, which is then reflected in your emotions and behavior. Fortunately, your brain can quickly respond to proper nutrition – even from a single meal. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Your body breaks down dietary protein into the amino acids it uses to assemble the 50,000 different proteins it needs to function – including neurotransmitters and chromosomes, hormones and enzymes.

Dietary proteins fall into two groups. Complete proteins contain ample amounts of all eight essential amino acids. Fish and meat, fowl and eggs, cheese and yogurt are complete proteins.

On the other hand, grains and legumes, seeds and nuts, and a variety of other foods are incomplete proteins, because they provide only some of the essential amino acids."

[/sig]

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:38 AM

Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that there's also other health concerns beyond being overweight. Though here in America, that's a big one, connected to a lot of other health problems and illness.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:44 AM

That's very true.

Undereating can cause very serious health problems, as well. That's not publicized enough since all the focus is on obesity.

In every case, it is important to take nutrition seriously.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 3:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Eat meat, don't eat meat... exercise or smoke... you are still going to die one day.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 4:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Eat meat, don't eat meat... exercise or smoke... you are still going to die one day.

Sure. But some people actually don't hate the thought of growing old, and how we treat our bodies during life can have a very big impact on how well those same bodies will be functioning then.

Just saying.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 5:04 AM

PR: use the google.

Bytemite:

You need to add fats and protein into your diet to balance it out. The typical omnivore diet is fruits, berries, seeds and nuts. If you have tofu and hommus and a decent regimen of beans, etc., you should be okay.

Many vegetarians make the mistake of thinking that we can subsist on vegetables. We can't. We don't have the metabolism for it. We can neither break down the carbs nor can we get all the basic nutrients from veggies alone. I was in this boat myself once. Study the diets of animals we're related to, apes, monkeys, mice. Our closest relative is the bonobo ape, who is basically a vegetarian. But no one should ever mistake vegetarian for herbivore, nor should anyone mistake omnivore for herbivore+carnivore. Omnivore is neither, and lacks the capacity to gain the maximum value of meat or veggies, and must rely on seeds and nuts for ideal nutrition.

If you solve your diet issues and still have this problem, it could be a health concern, and might need looking into.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 5:20 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I worked with a guy whose motto was that he ate "nothing with a face". That's how he parsed the 'what do you eat' world, though, now that I think about it, I'm not sure where he came down on clams and such.

The Masia drink both the milk and blood of their cattle.

I wonder about the nutrition of artificial food, which to some level includes factory-farmed food. Many years ago a person that I worked with said to the effect that we'll never be able to live off-planet, since our requirements are so exact and so subtle - so attuned to THIS planet and its minerals and chemicals - that we'll never be able to recreate them well enough to ensure long-term survival.

Anatomically and biochemically, people are omnivores. If we were herbivores we'd have constantly-growing grinding teeth, really long intestines and possibly a few extra stomachs. If we were carnivores we'd have ripping teeth, really short guts, and a biochemical need for dietary taurine (an amino acid).

There is good biochemical evidence for a theory that people evolved on the seashore - for one thing we have a high tolerance for sodium, we are the only species to have naturally-evolved cystic fibrosis, and we need GRAMS of omega-6 fatty acids each day in our diets (the DHA PR referred to is one of them) found nearly exclusively in aquatic foods like fish.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 8:52 AM