Regarding trust of the medical establishment. by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Regarding trust of the medical establishment.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21
SHORT URL:
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Saturday, August 15, 2009 7:57 AM

You know, I woulda really rather been mistaken...

Polio surge in Nigeria after vaccine virus mutates
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090814/ap_on_re_af/af_med_polio_nigeria

As some folk here know, I have asserted having some evidence that some flu outbreaks were caused by live virus vaccinations such as flumist and whatnot, and generally catch crap for it, cause there's "no such thing" and it's just "not possible".

But... it is.
And now there's proof.
"Polio, the dreaded paralyzing disease stamped out in the industrialized world, is spreading in Nigeria. And health officials say in some cases, it's caused by the vaccine used to fight it."

Now here's the rub - despite false characterizations to the contrary, I am not at all against the idea of vaccination, but rather, think everyone should be able to make a fully informed, personal risk/benefit assessment rather than having a medical decision with potentially disastrous consequences shoved on them by force of law.

Are we clear on that ?
OK!

Cause the OTHER end of my concern is stuff like this!
"When Nigerian leaders suspended polio vaccination in 2003, believing the vaccine would sterilize their children and infect them with HIV, Nigeria exported polio to nearly two dozen countries worldwide, making it as far away as Indonesia."

And given the SV40 contamination mess, a whole lotta other malfeasance, and criminal negligence like Baxters complete violation of BSL-3, I would say they are not without some validity to their concern - and yet a complete backlash against the medical establishment is every bit as dangerous in many ways, as allowing them to field dangerous vaccines that have not been properly tested, have devastating side effects, are contaminated, or less effective than advertised, if at all.

We have GOT to find a better way to DO this thing.

And it sure as hell doesn't help, what with the aftermath of the Gardasil mess, and Baxters malfeasance, that the pharma companies wanna field a new "swine flu" vaccine sans proper testing, known or suspected (some dispute about a certain set of tests in the UK) to be FAR more lethal than the virus itself - especially since there's still quite a few folk who remember what happened last time in 1976, and it rooks me greatly that the hand of Rumsfeld is detectable in this current mess as well.

And very MUCH not helping is the fearmongering and political powergrabbing, or at least the very obvious run-ups to it.

So there we are - and folks have good reason to be suspicious especially with We Are Change Colorado securing an admission that the States *ARE* going to push for legally mandatory immunizations with a vaccine that's probably not fully tested, all the while shielding the companies producing it from any legal liability for the damages - this has all the makings of a class one disaster in BOTH directions, cause if the medical/pharmaceutical community pushes the envelope any further than they already have, we're lookin at a complete if not total breakdown of trust in both them and public health officials.

And folks, THAT could be even WORSE.

One thing we *NEED* to do is find out and isolate the factors that cause some folks to have adverse reactions if not outright die - NO ONE has put any real effort into finding the hell out, one side considers em necessary collateral damage, and the other considers all vaccine products pure poison, and neither one has any intent or desire to cooperate whatsoever.

Second thing we need to do is proper safety and efficiency testing by an independent lab or medical collective that isn't beholden to the corporations or the federales, something like a medical version of Underwriters Laboratories, or hell, THEM, if they'd do it!

And third, clean house of the revolving door game between the FDA and Big Pharma, cause as it stands the FDA has completely failed at and corrupted their own purpose every bit as badly as our so-called intelligence agencies have - call em on the carpet and hand out the pink slips!
We are NOT their servants, we're their BOSS - and it's long past time we reminded them of this fact!

As for this so-called swine flu - "ordinary" flu kills a hell of a lot more people a year, and your best defense is good health in combination with proper safety and hygiene procedures, and if you need more than that, consult with your doctor about it and get informed about what else you can do, no excuse for not doing the latter, although of course you're gonna have to sort through a ton of propagandized crap from both big pharma and their foes in order to figure out the truth of anything, but that's true of researching any damn thing these days, innit ?

There's just so many ways this can go bad, and every one of them exploitable by power hungry folks just WAITING for an excuse we should know better than to give them.

And we better do something quick, cause there's other concerns comin up all too damn soon now, with just as much potential to cause social chaos, a couple of which could tip into this one and unbalance it in a bad way, or get ugly themselves, and we might NEED a medical establishment with some credibility and public trust in the near future.

Which ain't gonna happen if they piss it away for profit and power to the point where ANYONE in a white lab coat is viewed by the public as suspect and untrustworthy, there's already ripples in that pond becoming waves.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

In this case, its very simple: Use a killed virus.

The REAL problem is not the vaccine. The REAL problem is lack of sanitation, because that is how the polio virus spreads, whether it is the natural virus or the vaccine virus. The OTHER problem is lack of money. Needles are expensive. In African countries, needles were often re-used.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:06 AM

FIVVER

The weakened virus used in Nigeria is taken orally. It's the killed virus that's injected. Unfortunately the weakened virus has to be refrigerated which is probably as hard or harder than finding a clean needle.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:09 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

http://www.sunjournal.com/node/105339/

'National Guard drill at high school to prepare for possible H1N1 riot

By Leslie H. Dixon, Staff Writer

Published: Aug 13, 2009 1:46 am

PARIS — Oxford Hills Comprehensive High School will be the site of a National Guard riot control drill Thursday morning to prepare in the event of a panic over distribution of serum to treat the swine flu.

The school on Route 26 at the Paris-Norway town line has been designated by state officials as a distribution site for the H1N1 flu vaccine. The drill is to prepare for a worst-case scenario should the serum have to be transported from Augusta and people rush to get it...

...On Thursday morning, four or five National Guard Humvees will travel from Augusta to Paris with vials of fake serum. The National Guardsmen will take on the roles of panicked citizens and military police and practice what they would do, such as using tear gas, in the case of a riot.

"This is just a component of moving the stuff from point A to B," said Oxford County Emergency Management Agency Director Scott Parker. The plan will be put into place only if needed, he said.

Plans were developed in April to have vials of serum sent from the federal government to Augusta, Parker said. From Augusta, the supplies will be transported to designated distribution centers.

During the April conference, concerns were raised about a possible out-of-control rush on the serum, Parker said. Because of that concern, Gov. John Baldacci and Gen. John Libby, adjutant general of the Maine National Guard, agreed that a plan should be devised to quell such a disturbance.

Local police chiefs have also been involved in the planning, Parker said. In a real event, local police would be in charge of security once the serum arrives in Paris. "We own it. We're in charge of providing security," he said.'

Somehow I doubt that folk will riot to demand this vaccine...But , one never knows the *ultimate* end of media-manipulation...

Can't trust the political establishment , either :

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23268.htm

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23270.htm

Six Lobbyists per 'Lawmaker' :
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23263.htm

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 2:08 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The REAL problem is lack of sanitation

That's a nasty issue in a lot of countries - you'd think that folk might be willing to help out a bit on the whole clean water and sanitation thing as a proxy version of self defense, and it's one of the few valid reasons for foreign aid - but they don't, and that severely sucks.

My concern currently however is that the lack of trust in the medical establishment in countries who do have clean water and proper sanitation could spawn outbreaks of various nastiness, or interfere with any effort to stem a REAL one, should it crop up.

Them crying wolf on this swine flu thing, with obvious and blatant corruption and powergrab, has the potential to seriously, SERIOUSLY bite us all on the ass if the real thing ever DOES come along.

-F

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Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem

Several things:

1. The WHO is a menace. They are a bioweapons research branch of the UN globalist community, and Africa is their testing ground. When this disaster happened in The Congo with AIDS, they they used it in the USSR, during the Yeltsin coup chaos. It's so obviously deliberate it's not funny.

2. No one should be using live vaccines. This is certuries out of date. The boiled vaccines contain the same proteins by no virus, but they two are now totally obsolete. The genetically engineered vaccines contain no virus, no blood, no chance of infection and are more effective and cheaper to produce, there is no reason on earth not to use them, unless you want a result like this.

3. I ask again, post anything credible specific to Gardasil. You know I'm no fan of Merck, king of the FDA, manipulative pharmagovernment, but I also know a problem and solution when I see it:

Problem: A virus killing up to 300,000 people a year
Solution: A vaccine that *IS* genetically engineers, ergo, harmless to the populace.

Before I go on, two caveats:

1. Combo vaccines are very dangers. I know there was a combo vaccine problem with gardasil, but there often is a problem. This isn't news, the immune system needs to focus. Combos are just a retarded idea.

2. There were some problems with older patients. The vaccine was designed for children, some dosage adjustments should have been done.

3. This is NOT a blood virus, and so injecting it into the blood does potentially cause anaphylactic shock, such things should be managed carefully.

But given these, any problem outside of these is not the fault of Gardasil, but of the healthcare professionals administering it, the same with any regular medication, anaesthetic, antibiotic, etc.

Am I wrong?

Gardasil is the core structural protein of the virus, reproduced through genetic engineering with no virus present. Furthermore, these guys did an ace job. They sequenced the entire genome and have a working mechanism of action for every gene. It's the cleanest work I've seen to date.

Sorry, I research this stuff all the time, biochemist, it's a hobby, but I have to say when I saw the presentation, I was impressed, I read the research, these guys knew their stuff, it made the rest of virology look like rank amateurs.

Better solution?

I have one, I've been working on this idea, but it's the sort of thing I need to have an organization and income to develop. Viruses are different from anything that naturally occurs in our systems. They use typically sulfer based shells, holding self ejecting RNA or DNA of specific short sequencing to hijack the cell's native mechanisms. I believe that a fairly universal viral defense can be designed, and I have some good ideas. I'd like to assemble a team, I won't say more here, but if you want to talk about it, you know where I am.

(You know I'm no fan of big pharm or the medical establishment, who, I will hasten to point out, used me as a guinea pig for three years leaving untolled permanent damage.)

Sorry for ranting on a sideline, also, Kathy's take would be worth a listen on this subject.

Re: Nigeria, WHO is a bunch of rank amateurs in particular. I'm stunned that the world allows them to operate at all. There's no oversight over the UN, clearly. This vaccination wasn't done with any kind of skill at all, and I'm very suspicious of any widespread, live vaccine program, particularly involving the UN, WHO and Africa. Or anything involving any one of the above, but exponentially increasing in suspicion with experiments containing two or more.

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Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I ask again, post anything credible specific to Gardasil. You know I'm no fan of Merck, king of the FDA, manipulative pharmagovernment, but I also know a problem and solution when I see it:

Ah, You weren't here for that, then ?

I had suspicions as soon as the really hard marketing push came up, and the more digging I did, the scarier it got - because of active suppression by Merck, most of the more useful info is disjointed and spread out, but by far Judicial Watch has the most accessible and verifiable documentation, at least as far as related to the aftermath, and if needs be I will see if I can find a couple sources for a deconstruction and explaination of why it doesn't even actually work, and how the testing/research was slanted from the start and involved some truly slipshod and otherwise disturbing scientific method.

The Judicial Watch documents are here, and many of them are straight up records obtained directly from the FDA or VAERS database under FOIA requests.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/gardasil

There's more to say, but I am out of time, I'll check back after the first set of rounds.

-F

EDIT: Woulda helped to include the link, wouldn't it ?
Fixed, and I got work to do.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 12:19 AM

DREAMTROVE

I know that Merck does operate by its own rules "we're king, and above the law." But the research was really quite good. I can see weaknesses in it, scientifically, but I have to credit, this is really about the best work I have seen to date.

There was of course a push to make it universal before adequate testing, because this is Merck, the Goldman Sachs of medicine, and also money...

The carrying out of the vaccine itself is probably much more of a problem than the underlying science, which is sound. It's not going to be 100% effective, but doesn't claim to be. It's probably more effective than claims, because it hits the telomerase promoting viruses hardest.

I try to be absolutely objective. If Israel comes up for a plan for world peace, I weigh it on the merits, not on their past record. This one was very well done, in the lab. In the hospital, that may be another story.

For a background, 80% will get the virus if they live long enough. A vaccine is probably a good idea.

So a couple counterpoints, some obvious ones:

Meningitis was not caused by the vaccine, that was caused as it always is by a sloppy unclean hospital, just like sepsis.

Anaphylactic shock was caused by the vaccine, this is a major risk with any vaccine. Usually the culprit is too high a dose or "multi-vaccine" which is just a dumb idea that medicine likes because it's lazy and greedy.

Any influenza was also picked up at the hospital or clinic. "Allergic Reaction" is the same as Anaphylactic shock, the cause of all the cardiac arrests.

There's not sufficient data here to indicate a problem with the vaccine itself, you'd need equally good science on the other side: If you can prove that the protein binds to anything but itself. So far I've seen no evidence that this is the case.

Cursorarily, this looks like "doctors as usual." One of the hidden facts in our medical system is that hospitals and clinics will save a million lives this year, and kill a million other people, to no net benefit. 300,000 will die from clerical error alone (being given the wrong medication, wrong dose, even wrong surgery.) I once in the psych ward was held down by 6 orderlys and injected with a 10ccs of drug that I was allergic to, and that information was on my medical record, which they failed to check, they also failed to believe me when I told them. The resulting seizures left permanent damage. (Sue them? Can't I just shoot them instead? Actually, I would sue them, I just don't have the time.)

Anyway, the only anomalous data here is blood clots. It's worth a study to see if the vaccine causes clotting, and if so, whether this can be prevented by lowering the dose or using an associated anti-coagulant (my last choice.)

But my first reaction is "why inject a genetically engineered vaccine?" It takes about a month to develop antibodies to an allergen that is applied to the skin, but there's no virus here, so there's not a good reason not to allow a month.

A couple other thoughts:

1. A certain # of people die as a result of walking into a hospital because they're festering pits of disease. There is actually nowhere on earth less clean than a hospital, in terms of infections. They just look really clean.

2. There's a danger in injecting something into the bloodstream that doesn't live in the bloodstream, in fact, is never found in the bloodstream. Cervical cancer is actually a skin cancer. The virus itself, if in the blood, wouldn't last more than a few seconds. It just has no real natural defenses, this is not HIV we're talking about, it's nowhere near in the same league. The fact that it probably kills more people makes it worthy of note, and worth doing something about.

3. There's an obvious lack of proper testing and precaution here, probably as a result of Merck having the FDA as its bitch, and wanting to make the maximum profit for the quarter.

But all of that said, the design of the vaccine is impeccable, and doesn't deserve a comparison to the live polio vaccine. The latter is just human stupidity and incompetence at the very best, and that's being very charitable. At worst, it's an intentional plan to start a plague in africa, or use africa as a testing ground for a bioweapon.

Ultimately, as I said, I have a better plan for dealing with this sort of thing, and HPV is a very simple virus and decent place to start for just a comprehensive viral defense system, it's probably the simplest, and HIV is the most complex, of all viruses that kill humans. Stopping them at replication phase would be ideal, but not AZT style, iow, stopping all replication, a really bad idea.

The weakness of vaccines is that they only boost the immune response, which only effects the blood and internal tissues the immune system operates in. There's little immune response in the skin, and essentially no immune response in the brain. A direct internal cellular defense which could block attacks could also save the infected cells, something no approach has been able to do yet.

Still, working with very limited tools, I think the Merck team really came up with a pretty well designed solution. I'm going to hazard a guess here that the problem was in Merck's rush to market, lack of research, and poor application. I also have to say, when I reviewed the science, I was impressed. They must have swallowed some poor little biotech company with a lot of brains, because this is a big step up from the "lets try this on another group of sick rats and see what happens" kind of science big pharm is used to.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 2:22 AM

PLAINJAYNE

So like do any of you work in the medical field? I'm just wondering.

Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!

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Monday, August 17, 2009 3:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Apparently we either ain't reading the same documents, or you ain't seein what I saw.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/documents/2008/JWReportFDAhpvVaccineRecor
ds.pdf

A: Gardasil has not been evaluated as to whether it's ingredients, individually or in combination, might be carcinogenic.

B: It has no prophylactic effect against a pre-existing infection, and some evidence has surfaced during investigation that it may in fact amplify, aggravate, or trigger symptoms of a pre-existing infection.

C: It protects against only four strains, out of thirty, fifteen of which are known to cause cancer.

D: No one has any clue how long that protection may last, and due to this, by the time it's protection is actually needed, it may no longer be effective.

E: The test results were loaded by using a reactive placebo rather than non reactive saline, and I do hold it against you that you did not immediately spot that and call it into question.

F: It has not been effectively tested on the primary age group they're marketing it for, and the sample size of folk even close to that age is far too small for any rational scientific method.

G: It was tested in conjunction only with a single other vaccine, and evidence has surfaced that it may cause severe reactions and effects in combination with menactra.

Now, onto personal observations.

First, despite chronic VAERS underreporting, which lead in part to the RotaShield fiasco, even at this point it's pretty obvious that Gardasil has a tremendously high rate of side effects, and an obvious association with neurological malfunction.

It's even worse if you know just how much effort Merck put into suppressing that reporting, especially as they were spending huge amounts of cash to push really hard towards making it legally mandatory AND suddenly marketing it to boys as well - and that is what gave them away.

It struck me that they knew there was going to be some kind of fallout, and were desperate to get it out there, on the market and maximize profit before the penny dropped - and I said as much back then, which in spite of a long history of such predictions being accurate, no one much took seriously.

And then kids started dropping dead, cases of GBS popping up left and right and Merck suddenly drops the lobbying efforts, ditches the ad campaigns and clams up behind a wall of lawyers who were put on retainer the same week as FDA approval ?

Go on, try to tell me that looks innocent, especially following on the heels of the Vioxx disaster, in which they knew and actively suppressed that information, up to and including putting the arm on physicians and discouraging VAERS reporting ?

Sorry, but I just don't believe in that level of coincidence - VAERS also doesn't follow up and tell you how many of those cases of GBS syndrome progressively worsened into death, but go on, find out for yourself, if you like, or go ask Cynthia Janak about it, if you wish - whether you agree with her about much else, that's one lady who does her homework on a topic, quite mercilessly, although I am not entirely sure I agree with all her conclusions on the data, myself.

I also have personal reasons to be very pissed off as a member of my own family ignored my advice regarding this and has become an apparent impending casualty of these kind of side effects, having developed cervical cancer and GBS shortly after receiving this vaccine - she's not expected to make it past September, but one thing has been true all the way back to ole Devil Anse hisself, and that's just how hard it is to finish one of us off - if there's a way, I damn sure plan to find one.

What *I* damn well mean to find out, one way or the other, is what the hell the factor is that's causing GBS and Neurological issues, what ingredient or combination thereof is the trigger, what do those affected have in common ?

NOBODY has been willing to research this - big pharma is too busy covering their own ass, and the other side considers all and every to be pure toxic poison, and you can't even get em in the same room with each other without the blood gettin knee deep as they lash out mercilessly at each other, which helps exactly no-damned-body, least of all the victims.

I can find out, I *WILL* find out, and while I can only hope it's in time to do something for my own, even in extremis - should that not be the case the very *least* I can do is use what I learn to assist those others similarly affected in her name - and it being an impossible task ain't never stopped me from anything before, nor will it bar my way now.

And should I find one whit of proof that Merck knew about these dangers prior to FDA approval, or that they had strong evidence and buried it like they did with Vioxx - that will be the END of them, they'll get what Pathway, Tranquility, Casa and all the others got, even if that takes another twenty years.

But my REAL concern is finding that factor, so that we can prevent these injuries and deaths which I consider so needless, collateral damage isn't so acceptable when it's one of your own, that much for damned sure.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 17, 2009 3:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by PlainJayne:
So like do any of you work in the medical field? I'm just wondering.

I do not - I know a hell of a lot about prosthetic technology, and have some small level of personal involvement, but since I have no "official" credentials I trade off my work on that level to folks who do in exchange for prosthetics and parts I would otherwise be unable to afford.

I also do a lot of unofficial work with some really, seriously damaged folk, most of them younger, and a lot of them considered complete write-offs by credentialed professionals - sadly, much of the time they're right, but you know - sometimes they aren't.

On that field, while without official credentials, I know more than I ever wanted to about traumatic psychology which is still very much a guesswork field even for folk with the very best of educations, although Dr. Bruce Perry of the ChildTrauma Academy is hands-down the most knowledgeable regarding the topic, and I have followed his work closely even way back when most of the medical community thought him a harmless crank.

When it comes to stuff like we're discussing ?
Bah, what I know would fit in a thimble with room to spare - I am lookin at it from a criminal investigation type angle, and have sense enough to check the cred of the folk who tell me things about it before I give em any credence though.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 17, 2009 3:20 AM

CHRISISALL

What did McCoy say about eating & excercising?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, August 17, 2009 4:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

http://www.news1130.com/more.jsp?content=20090816_121822_7032

Just an FYI....

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Monday, August 17, 2009 6:02 AM

BYTEMITE

Not quite the subject they're talking on, Wulf, but potentially a good one to bring up.

I honestly think the best healthcare is that one country that has the mixed system. Which one is that? Is it Sweden?

Unfortunately, whether you're a private system, a public system, or a mixed system, you got the same essential problem: you're putting your health in the hands of people who not ONLY are untrustworthy, but who want to PROFIT from it. Doesn't matter if it's government or HMOs/pharmaceuticals/insurance companies, that's a no-win for anyone.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 6:39 AM

BYTEMITE

When I try to think of how I'd try to fit some of the important technical and scientific trades into my idea for an alternative socio-economic system, it's not an easy fit.

Now that we have a nice foundation for at least understanding what causes various pathogens and how they're spread, I think that what would ultimately be best for the patients would be a volunteer medical doctor and research system. One like Doctors Without Borders, with skilled and trained professionals both on the diagnosis end and the supply/production end, but without the push and funding from outside to distribute corporate drugs.

I think there are people who naturally would want to pursue a profession in healing, or in pursuing research. Even if it wasn't the standard of living today's doctors are accustomed to, and if their greatest reward was the high esteem of the community they were part of.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 7:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I like what you said, Byte. I agree about the mixed system being what appears to me to be the best solution, and there are so many systems in place now, surely with some thought it would be possible to pick aspects that would work for our society. I'm not holding my breath, tho...

The sanitary issue is the biggest, in developing countries. I lived in Afghanistan as a child, and the death rate there was horrendous...probably still is. They had gutters called "jeuey ditches", just streams alongside the streets...upstream, horse taking a leak; downstream, woman washing clothes, child taking a drink...go from there!

The saying was that if a child lived to the age of 10, nothing could kill him but a bullet or a knife (tho' of course the Russians added a bit to that, as well as us...

). But if sanitation ws tackled first and foremost, it would make major changes everywhere, no question about it.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 7:46 AM

BYTEMITE

Yikes. Explosive dysentery isn't the nicest way to go out. :/

And how about the Ganges River, and how all that pollution and run-off gets put into the oceans? Not good.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 9:30 AM

DREAMTROVE

Frem, I'm going to have to email this one to you, since there's clearly a personal side.

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Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:21 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Trust the nurses...They *know* stuff :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1207270/A-nurses-refuse-swin
e-flu-jab.html

'...Up to a third of nurses will say no to the swine flu jab because of concerns over its safety, a poll has found.
NHS workers are first in line for the vaccine, but a survey of 1,500 nurses found many will reject it. '

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1207270/A-nurses-refuse-swin
e-flu-jab.html#ixzz0OfcG8QPZ

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