Getting scarier and scarier... TONYT- for you. Signy by Niki2

I'm willing to see these people at face value, and not just assume they have an agenda beyond what they're claiming.

There's a difference between Republicans and Libertarians, you know. And the average citizen, well, they're not manipulative enough to lie about their political beliefs.

Are some of them right wing extremists? Yeah. But to look at a person and one sign, or carrying a gun, and say that makes them a birther, or pro-life, or racist, or believe in death panels... There's no way of knowing that.

I for one do believe that this country is in trouble. I'd hoped it could be resolved peacefully, through the legislative process, but more and more I'm seeing the complete resistance of the powers that be to change. It was true in the Bush administration, oh yes, and Obama is almost worse because he pretends like he's not doing the same things. But he is. He's okayed wire-tapping and water-boarding to continue, and what about Gitmo? Still open? Hmm.

I won't ever take up a gun. I won't ever hold a gun, because I think it's wrong to take life, and I think building a system based on threats and violence... Well, that's what got us where we are now.

If things destabilize, people will get hurt. I don't know if you can justify change if it hurts people. The road to hell and good intentions and all that.

But if I can see a way clear to gather together something new and good as things are coming apart, without hurting anyone? Then I'm going to be helping.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 10:41 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Resistance...against unconstitutional or illegal behavior by government officials."

Im sure, to cowards, the thought of armed resistance to tyranny is horrifying.

However, I'm grateful that the American spirit of freedom, and resistance to subjugation, is still strong.

Count me in.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 10:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
"Resistance...against unconstitutional or illegal behavior by government officials."

By your statement, Bush should have been shot within the first year of office.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 11:01 AM

I think he and Cheney should have been arrested by the citizens and detained somewhere for the remaining seven years. Maybe put on a tiny little leaky boat with a fishing net and sent out into the ocean if we were feeling poetic.

Although the idea of making them wear black hoods in some dank dungeon somewhere makes me SMILE.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 11:11 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Resistance...against unconstitutional or illegal behavior by government officials."

Im sure, to cowards, the thought of armed resistance to tyranny is horrifying.

However, I'm grateful that the American spirit of freedom, and resistance to subjugation, is still strong.

Count me in.

So tell us all, Wulfie, why are YOU still here, when you should be out there on the front lines with your guns?

Oh yeah... it's because you're a coward.

Mike

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Monday, August 17, 2009 11:16 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

LOL

I agree with the stuff about Bush.

Sorry that Im late to the party. But hey, at least now I'm paying attention to whats going on.

And, as to the front lines...

Well, gotta stock up first, right?

(I keed I keed)

Look, truth be told, Bush did some heinous sh*t and should have been made to pay for it. But, noone was paying attention. Now we are.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 11:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, a woman/man (?) after my own heart. Everything you said in your last post. Along with Sygnym's "By your statement, Bush should have been shot within the first year of office". And then some.

I'm not happy with Obama, and he is slowly losing my "hope and change" belief; let's say I'm angry with him right now, and trying hard to hang on and give it time. Eight months ain't much in a lifetime, and compared to what we had...

But I don't take anyone at face value as being part of something else unless they say so. It' is ALL the stuff that's going on that makes me uncomfortable, not any one group but many, not any one political philosophy but many, not any one person with a gun, but many, etc.

It's terribly ironic to me that Obama is being called the names he is, given the past few years and the short time he's been in office. Why the hue and cry now, when everything Obama's done so far, Bush did so much MORE of and did so much WORSE? It's weird, the only thing I can think of is a combinaiton of those people out there whose racism is still so deeply ingrained they'll take anything that might make him not "be", and that people of one political philsophy are far more intense than the other...? Does anyone else have any better answer?

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Monday, August 17, 2009 11:35 AM

I don't think we've seen what all Obama's doing. The media has the attention span of a two month old puppy. On a sugar high. ON CRACK.

The lies Bush and Cheney constructed started to fall apart because they suck at lying. Look at Cheney with his continuing blathering on about the necessity of what they did. HOW did these people trick most of America? It boggles my mind. Anyone with the tiniest smudge of critical thinking skill could look at Colin Powell's power point presentation and see the gaping holes in the intelligence and the hand waving he was having to do. I guess when the puppeteers are done with you, they cut you loose to fend for yourselves, eh?

But Obama... I have the distinct feeling, with his silvered tongue, that he may be the world's greatest liar, because he can make things sound true. I think he's Cheney with charisma.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 11:47 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Gawd I hope you're wrong. The idea of ANYONE of cheney's mentality being back in power is TRULY terrifying. I don't see Obama like that; if anything, my first concerns about him seem more likely; I liked him but was afraid they'd eat him up. I think his intentions are good, but I don't know if he'll manage to pull anything off, especially with his penchant for "compromise in the name of bipartisanship".

How could they trick the people? One of my bumperstickers: "How could 52 million people be so stupid?!" Ignorance and stupidity: the single easiest things to manipulate.

As to the Bush/Cheney Administration, uh, incompetent some? Easy to fool the masses sometimes, harder to keep it up when you've got cronies in office who don't know what they're doing...IMHO

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Monday, August 17, 2009 12:01 PM

Ha, incompetence true enough. Though sometimes I wonder if they just 1) didn't care and 2) wanted us scared.

But no, the media wouldn't eat Obama up. And not because they're a "liberal" media (no such thing) or because of his race, either. Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck and other right-wing manipulation pawns who try to pretend they're libertarian and aren't didn't pull punches, though that's not saying much because they have zero credibility.

The media couldn't attack Obama because they don't WANT to attack Obama. They want him in power, the people running the media, and I'm terrified to even imagine why that might be.

Ask yourself if you really think anyone in the media has tried to attack Obama. It's not because there hasn't been things to call him on. But the media hasn't reported on those things for more than a day or an hour before trying to refocus everyone's attention elsewhere.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 1:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ask yourself if you really think anyone in the media has tried to attack Obama. It's not because there hasn't been things to call him on. But the media hasn't reported on those things for more than a day or an hour before trying to refocus everyone's attention elsewhere.

Same thing happened with the Bush admin. The media are just cheerleaders and Bush and Obama are the captains of the team. Goooooo America!

I wouldn't be too worried about the evil conspiracy of the media--really, they want Obama in power precisely because the American consumer wants Obama in power. AS SOON as the American consumer turns on Obama (when/if), the media will turn him into a joke. But until such time, Obama is the star quarterback for the best team IN THE WORLD! Whoohoo!

A wise man once said, "News is the stuff they don't want you to know, everything else is just advertising." And the MSM has been in the business of advertising for most of my lifetime.

Also:

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Are some of them right wing extremists? Yeah. But to look at a person and one sign, or carrying a gun, and say that makes them a birther, or pro-life, or racist, or believe in death panels... There's no way of knowing that.

There is one way of knowing, Bytemite. A way that anyone with discernment and a desire to understand reality before it beats them to a pulp can and must use, and that is to understand context.

They didn't just bring their assault rifles to a family picnic, they took 'em where the President of the United States was speaking. And not just any--and certainly not every--President, but the first ever black President of this nation. They never brought the guns before, but now they bring the guns. Why? What has changed? What is different about the present situation from the past? Y'all wanna say that these guys opposed Bush every bit as much as Obama, that government abuse of power is the problem. But their actions betray you. Anyone who's paying attention can know that it's b.s. because the previous admin. was every bit as intrusive as this admin (VASTLY MORESO, even).

So, no, that must not have been the tipping point. The context, that's what's different. They didn't bring the guns and the "Death to" signs to Bush's rallies. They bring 'em to this President's appearances.

They have singled out this President. For some deeply mysterious reason. But I guess, we can never know anything about that. Move along, Bytemite, nothing to see here...

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 1:17 PM

What makes you think I like Bush? Where have I said that?

All I'm saying is don't make assumptions about people's motivations. Or am I racist, too?

Obama has received, I've heard 400x the number of death threats than normal at this time in a presidential term. And you're right, there's no secret about that, or why.

But people are taking one look at these people at these rallies and determining that because of a trend, oh, look, they MUST be racist. Or pro-life. Or WHATEVER.

That is a logical fallacy. It's called the fallacy of accident, and also has elements of the association fallacy.

http://fallacyfiles.org/accident.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

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Monday, August 17, 2009 1:19 PM

PLAINJAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Resistance...against unconstitutional or illegal behavior by government officials."

Im sure, to cowards, the thought of armed resistance to tyranny is horrifying.

However, I'm grateful that the American spirit of freedom, and resistance to subjugation, is still strong.

Count me in.

Me too, bitches!

I'm not in love with the thought of having to go out and shoot people, or have them shoot at me, but I will not sit idly by and let tyranny take hold in my country. Evil flourishes when good men do nothing. I will resist. I will fight. I will not falter in my belief that freedom is worth dying for.

I pray it doesn't come to that, but if it does, expect to see me out there with the 3% who give enough of a damn to fight it.

Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!

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Monday, August 17, 2009 1:40 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"--oh, I believe that 100%. That's why I was out there demonstrating right along with them during Bush.

But where were you and all these good men when Bush was in power, abusing our civil rights, trampling our Constitution, and all the rest? I don't get that--Obama hasn't even BEGUN to do the kind of things Bush did with impunity for eight years, yet the Right has made him the anti-Christ in eight MONTHS. Weird...

"I will not sit idly by and let tyranny take hold in my country" ... uhhh, we just had a tyrant, by every definition I've ever seen.

Tyrant (according to Webster):

1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution
b : a usurper of sovereignty

2 a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally
b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

So where was 'ya?

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Monday, August 17, 2009 1:48 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, I just realized your response to my first post started out "I'm willing to see these people at face value, and not just assume they have an agenda beyond what they're claiming." Did you think that's what I was doing? Because I wasn't...I have no idea what their agenda might be...it bothers me that one has ties to a militia, but I don't know beyond that.

It's the whole THING that's bothering me. All the upset we've seen since Obama's Presidency began, it's not like anything I've ever seen before, and I've been around (well, aware anyway) since Kennedy.

I put it down to what's happened to the country for eight years which has resulted in the economic impact on EVERYONE--major impact, the war, all those affected by Katrina, our standing in the world, global warming fears, the Religious Right, and on and on...but mostly the things tha hit people where they LIVE...and yes, to the racism that still lives in the hearts of many who simply cannot accept the concept of a Black President.

Whatever these PARTICULAR people think, I don't know, but it's the timbre of the country that's making it happen, and all the rest, to me. Maybe I wasn't clear about that, sorry.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 2:03 PM

How do I put this... I agree with what you just said, and thank you for elaborating on your views of these people. I believe now that this comment:

Quote:
It bothers me, with the racism still evident in all that's happening with the birthers, the deathers, the town halls, etc., the fact that militias are on the rise, and all the anger and upheaval the state of the economy and nation has brought about...It worries me.

Gave me the wrong impression.

But I'm not so sure I didn't see anger during the Bush administration either. I think the left-wing may just be a more quiet, person by person bunch, but I saw the anger at Bush, and I saw the hate at Bush.

To be fair, I hate him too.

I think this is more an issue of unprecedented publicity and coverage than it is an issue of unprecedented unrest.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 2:06 PM

Quote:
Bush did some heinous sh*t and should have been made to pay for it. But, noone was paying attention. Now we are.

You're shitting me, right?

Because YOU weren't paying attention, you suppose no one else was, either?

Mike

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Monday, August 17, 2009 2:11 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Good points, everyone.

I think the folk packing openly and publicly are actually trying to point out the guardrails before this administration drives off the road and over a cliff, honestly - but they're doing it in a fashion that's perhaps counterproductive.

And there's also that given how this administration has been caught out using plants and shills already, I would not put it past them to either work that angle to discredit people - or play the game *I* do with some of the more wacky rightwingers and bait them into doing stupid shit to discredit entire political factions.

Plus there's confusion to the issue besides, like the town hall stuff - you got right wingies who just hate the black/liberal guy, you got paid shills for big pharma and the healthcare industry, unpaid shills they've baited with propaganda by playing on their own treasured ignorance and stupidity - but you ALSO have honest, forthright americans with real concerns who are severely pissed off, who get tossed into the "nutter" trashheap with the former just cause they share a single political opinion.

Folk need to realize the truth of this country's original motto - E Pluribus Unum.

Each of us speaks, for each of US - we're individuals acting in concert, and as such just because a person shares maybe ONE political opinion with another person, doesn't mean they agree on any damned thing else.

But when we ALL start agreeing on something, the combined power of that opinion is something that even the powers that be are frightened of.

And THAT, folks, is why they play divide and conquer - something we need to overcome if we're ever to be anything but their servants.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 17, 2009 2:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"--oh, I believe that 100%. That's why I was out there demonstrating right along with them during Bush.

But where were you and all these good men when Bush was in power, abusing our civil rights, trampling our Constitution, and all the rest? I don't get that--Obama hasn't even BEGUN to do the kind of things Bush did with impunity for eight years, yet the Right has made him the anti-Christ in eight MONTHS. Weird...

"I will not sit idly by and let tyranny take hold in my country" ... uhhh, we just had a tyrant, by every definition I've ever seen.

Tyrant (according to Webster):

1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution
b : a usurper of sovereignty

2 a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally
b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

So where was 'ya?

Thanks, Niki - couldn't have said it better myself. All these chairborne rangers, where were they for the last eight years?

Apparently, as Wulfie said, they weren't paying attention. But NOW they are, so we better look out!

Mike

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Monday, August 17, 2009 2:20 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Mike, I was going to leave it alone.

But really, where were YOU?

Chairborne Rangers... lol I like that.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 3:07 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, Frem, I don't toss those people with concerns in the dumpster; one of the reasons I'm so pissed off about it all is that THEY are being denied their freedom to listen to and question their representatives, which is stifling of freedom of speech. I don't care whether it's left, right or middle, I want them all to have their chance to do what a town hall meeting is intended to let them do. It's not happening, and to have the disrupters screaming about their "freedom of speech" makes smoke come out my ears.

"I think the folk packing openly and publicly are actually trying to point out the guardrails before this administration drives off the road and over a cliff, honestly". Clarify, pls? Do you mean they're saying "you're nearing the cliff, we're gonna shoot you if you try to go over"? That's confusing.

I think anyone who walks around at an event with a gun is making a statement I'm not happy to hear. It's a threat, pure and simple...or it's showing off, I dunno. But with all the police around, nobody needs a gun, obviously. Since I haven't heard them doing it at any of the other town halls, as Mike said, it's about Obama. I don't know what their individual ideology is, tho' that one guy's seems to be pretty clear (the birther with ties to the militia), but a gun where not needed at a Presidential event? Sounds like a show of force, to me.

Too much is happening. Of the wrong kind. There has to be some reason for it. Look: Bush's approval ratings were in the tank, McCain/Palin played on the worst fears of everyone and riled up their base, Obama won by a landslide, the rilinig up of the base has gone on since he was elected, Republican numbers have gone down steadily as they got more and more strident and became the "party of no", and now militias on the rise and guns openly. Put it all together. Does it spell "hard-core minority" to anyone else?

I don't think it's at ALL a matter of us all agreeing on something which creates combined power, I think it's the provocation and manipulation of the worst aspect of American's mentality and stirring up of the worst Americans. People may be upset about politics, but he still has the approval of over half of us; for all this to be happening all around despite that says something about an aggressive minority IMHO.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 3:13 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I know where I was guys; out demonstrating against Iraq and all the stuff Bush was pulling. PEACEFULLY demonstrating, not disrupting other people's rights. Not carrying around "Kill Bush" signs, not hanging him in effigy. Didn't do any good, but at least we tried.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 3:22 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

You know, just a thought...

If the hippie libs had protested the war as Unconstitutional, instead of just "War is bad... BOOO" or "We hate violence, guns, and all that icky stuff", or "Bush lied", or "Whaaaa, we dont like the military just like our parents didn't" .... you might have had more of a following...

Btw, now that Bush is out... and your boy Obama is in... funny how the troops immediately came home.. right? Right?

No? You mean to say they are still over there?

I mean, I know that the media has stopped covering it, AND their deaths... but they ARE stil over there, RIGHT?

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Monday, August 17, 2009 5:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
What makes you think I like Bush? Where have I said that?

All I'm saying is don't make assumptions about people's motivations. Or am I racist, too?

Obama has received, I've heard 400x the number of death threats than normal at this time in a presidential term. And you're right, there's no secret about that, or why.

But people are taking one look at these people at these rallies and determining that because of a trend, oh, look, they MUST be racist. Or pro-life. Or WHATEVER.

That is a logical fallacy. It's called the fallacy of accident, and also has elements of the association fallacy.

http://fallacyfiles.org/accident.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Forgive me if this post was not directed at me, but if it was, Byte, you missed my point. I know perfectly well you're not a Bushy. I neither said nor implies such. And I strongly doubt that you're racist. I had a point to make and all you got, using whatever fallacious logic you favor, was that I thought YOU were a Bush supporter. Depressing. Really. Try again.

One thing: no one's taking "one look" at these folks--we've been getting plenty of looks for well over a year now, since Palin & Co. first started grooming them. It's got nothing to do with healthcare. It's got nothing to do with "Obammar's gwanna take away ar guns!" And if, just IF, some particularly dim-witted and barely principled libertarians think they can ride the coat-tails of the loony racist white nationalists to political visibility by joining their protests, isn't it their own damn fault if the American people get the wrong idea?

Why the hell would a rational person go to a townhall meeting about health care to make a statement--and an obscure and threatening statement at that--about his 2nd Amendment rights? Counterproductive doesn't even begin to cover it.

Every libertarian I've ever met--including yourself--take TREMENDOUS pains to distance and distinguish themselves from the right wing statists. What self-respecting libertarian would join such a crowd without even waving a li'l "I'm a libertarian, damn it!" poster to help us understand??? They're plants or they're right wing wackos.

Motives as transparent as these can be discerned, no assumptions required.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, August 17, 2009 5:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Mike, I was going to leave it alone.

But really, where were YOU?

Chairborne Rangers... lol I like that.

Let's say I was NOT "not paying attention".

Mike

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Monday, August 17, 2009 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
You know, just a thought...

If the hippie libs had protested the war as Unconstitutional, instead of just "War is bad... BOOO" or "We hate violence, guns, and all that icky stuff", or "Bush lied", or "Whaaaa, we dont like the military just like our parents didn't" .... you might have had more of a following...

Well, as you've said, you really WEREN'T paying attention. As long as we were killing people less white than you, why SHOULD you pay attention, right? All was good and right with the world, as far as you were concerned.

Of course, if any of you so-called "libertarians" really cared anything at all about the Constitution and the rule of law and the infringement of personal liberties, you'd have been right there alongside the rest of us. But you're not really about that, much as you may claim to be, are you, Wulfie?

I'm sure you never noticed any of us protesting the Patriot Act, either, right? Sure, never happened because YOU weren't paying attention, despite all your "libertarian" beliefs.

Quote:

Btw, now that Bush is out... and your boy Obama is in... funny how the troops immediately came home.. right? Right?

No? You mean to say they are still over there?

I mean, I know that the media has stopped covering it, AND their deaths... but they ARE stil over there, RIGHT?

Much as I wish we would just pull out completely, tomorrow, that's really not a viable option. That's why you don't rush headlong into war - because you can't really rush headlong OUT of it when you decide it's not working out the way you'd hoped.

As for the media not covering it, maybe you're listening to the wrong media. Hint: Fox is not your friend. For all their talk and bluster about "supporting the troops" while your butt-buddy Bush was in office, they really could give two fucks about the soldiers now that they've been mired in the sandbox for the last six-plus years.

Mike

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Monday, August 17, 2009 5:37 PM

First off, I'm not libertarian.

Second, I thought you were bringing up how the media supported Bush as a counterpoint to my examples of how the media is supporting Obama, and thus insinuating that I'm neglecting the Bush years out of personal bias.

Third, the tone of your post as I read it set me on edge because I felt you were being condescending to me... Oh, Bytemite, you don't think these people are racist? but it's so obvious! *emoticon of head banging against wall*

If you didn't mean to come across that way, then my mistake, but that's impression I got, and that's why my response was tetchy. Nothing raises my hackles faster than if I feel like I'm not being respected, I get enough of that from my oh so loving family.

There are crazies coming out of the woodworks. I make no mistake nor quarrel about that. But we're also lumping together the concerned individuals coming to these townhall meetings with legitimate thought out concerns WITH the crazies. Assumptions like that shut down the communication dialogue that allows people to actually figure out just what the problem is and find solutions.

I mean, not everyone who goes to a townhall or who expresses a strong political opinion, be it left-leaning or right is necessarily crazy or ignorant, but because they're outspoken, they receive only mockery from the media. And the media is just deliberately fanning the flames and dividing everyone when we should be trying to seek common ground.

A political rally or discussion should be open to all people without fear of being labeled a nutjob, or racist, or associated with other negative or uninformed political stances simply because of the other people who may be attending.

But I guess my level of intelligence is "depressing" and I'm not sure why I've earned your ire when I was under the impression that we agreed on a lot of things, so I'm going to pull out now.

EDIT: Of the argument, not the entire RWED board. >_> Whoops!

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Monday, August 17, 2009 6:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm not libertarian.

There are crazies coming out of the woodworks. I make no mistake nor quarrel about that. But we're also lumping together the concerned individuals coming to these townhall meetings with legitimate thought out concerns WITH the crazies. Assumptions like that shut down the communication dialogue that allows people to actually figure out just what the problem is and find solutions.

Thank the right-wing crazytalkers for that. They're the ones who decided to rile up the nutbags and send them out to the town halls with the SPECIFIC intention of shouting down any reasoned debate with talking points that were distributed by "grassroots" organizations that were set up and are wholly funded and run by lobbying groups.

Quote:

I mean, not everyone who goes to a townhall or who expresses a strong political opinion, be it left-leaning or right is necessarily crazy or ignorant, but because they're outspoken, they receive only mockery from the media. And the media is just deliberately fanning the flames and dividing everyone when we should be trying to seek common ground.

Yes, I absolutely will mock you if you show up with your "Obama = Hitler" sign. If you're shouting "I don't want socialism, and DON'T TOUCH MY MEDICARE!" I will mock you mercilessly, because you're too stupid to be in a debate about these issues.

Quote:

A political rally or discussion should be open to all people without fear of being labeled a nutjob, or racist, or associated with other negative or uninformed political stances simply because of the other people who may be attending.

Yes, you should be able to speak - and I mean SPEAK, not yell - without being labeled a nutjob or a socialist by uninformed people who may be attending.

I'll go ya one further. You shouldn't be able to attend these meetings without a valid voter-registration card showing that you live in that state or district. Hey, I didn't hear the right-wingers complaining when Bush screened his crowds and screened the questions well beforehand. Can't we at least make sure that the people coming out to yell and holler are at least voters who live in that congressional district? After all, if you can't vote in that district, why do you even care how that congressional representative votes?

Quote:

But I guess my level of intelligence is "depressing" and I'm not sure why I've earned your ire when I was under the impression that we agreed on a lot of things, so I'm going to pull out now.

I know that wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to respond. Your level of intelligence is far from "depressing" - it's downright REFRESHING. You have questions, as well you should. I applaud that, even though I may not applaud your conclusions. And you've certainly not "earned" my ire, that's for sure. What you've earned is my respect; while we disagree on some things, you've been more than civil (and more civil than I) on every post I can recall.

Pulling out would be our loss, and I'm hoping you'll stick around. Even a cynical old codger like myself has a few tricks still to learn, and you sticking around would be a good thing, cause you've got knowledge to share.

Mike

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 5:19 AM

DREAMTROVE

Wulf, they did.

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 5:56 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Video of angry black militia gangmember carrying M16 to Obama rally:

http://www.breitbart.tv/exercising-my-rights-man-explains-why-he-carri
ed-rifle-near-obama-event/

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

If the above was referring to

"If the hippie libs had protested the war as Unconstitutional, instead of just "War is bad... BOOO" or "We hate violence, guns, and all that icky stuff", or "Bush lied", or "Whaaaa, we dont like the military just like our parents didn't" .... you might have had more of a following..."

Yes, we did. Constantly.

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Look, truth be told, Bush did some heinous sh*t and should have been made to pay for it. But, noone was paying attention. Now we are.

As long as it was a white cowboy in charge, the wingnuts couldn't be bothered to pay attention. But put a brother in there, and they're all about keeping a watchfull eye on Government.

No, not transparent at all. No siree.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
You know, just a thought...

If the hippie libs had protested the war as Unconstitutional, instead of just "War is bad... BOOO" or "We hate violence, guns, and all that icky stuff", or "Bush lied", or "Whaaaa, we dont like the military just like our parents didn't" .... you might have had more of a following...

Btw, now that Bush is out... and your boy Obama is in... funny how the troops immediately came home.. right? Right?

No? You mean to say they are still over there?

I mean, I know that the media has stopped covering it, AND their deaths... but they ARE stil over there, RIGHT?

Why not just post "I'm ignorant" every time you feel the need to speak.

Sheesh, man, are you really that dumb?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:08 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok.

Im the last dumb guy in this country who believes in things known as "personal accountability", "freedom" and "faith".

I can live with that.

Oh, but wait.. I'm not.

There are actual people who hold to those truths too.

So, maybe...just maybe... there really is "HOPE" (the real stuff).

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Nikii

Quote:
one of the reasons I'm so pissed off about it all is that THEY are being denied their freedom to listen to and question their representatives, which is stifling of freedom of speech. I don't care whether it's left, right or middle, I want them all to have their chance to do what a town hall meeting is intended to let them do. It's not happening, and to have the disrupters screaming about their "freedom of speech" makes smoke come out my ears.

Oh yes, shouting someone down isn't at all about freedom of speech, that's about control - it means you want to shut them up, rather than engage their argument, and is about as stupid and counterproductive a thing as I have ever seen.

And worse, it buries the people with real, actual concerns they're pissed off about cause the powers that be and the downshouters are too busy laying salvos on each other for anything even remotely resembling rational discussion.

Free speech that ain't - I give ya that, cause in order to argue, you must LISTEN, and neither the Gov Shills or the Downshouters are even TRYING to.

But there's angry, pissed off, concerned folk among them too, gettin all the madder cause their concerns are not being addressed, as well.

Quote:
"I think the folk packing openly and publicly are actually trying to point out the guardrails before this administration drives off the road and over a cliff, honestly". Clarify, pls? Do you mean they're saying "you're nearing the cliff, we're gonna shoot you if you try to go over"? That's confusing.

I think anyone who walks around at an event with a gun is making a statement I'm not happy to hear. It's a threat, pure and simple...or it's showing off, I dunno. But with all the police around, nobody needs a gun, obviously. Since I haven't heard them doing it at any of the other town halls, as Mike said, it's about Obama. I don't know what their individual ideology is, tho' that one guy's seems to be pretty clear (the birther with ties to the militia), but a gun where not needed at a Presidential event? Sounds like a show of force, to me.

Regarding this...

Why does a person display, but not use a weapon ?
Why does a small animal show you it's teeth, but not bite you ?

Those kind of "threat displays" are the equivalent of a skunk doing a 180 and stamping it's feet, it's a headsup that you have done something to threaten or frighten them in a major way, which in combination with lack of an effective escape route or mitigation, causes a threat display not as an aggressive response, but as a defensive response.

This administration, coming on the heels of the last one, and instead of decently shitcanning the policies and abuses, taking that ball and running for the end zone ?

That scares the HELL out of people whether they admit it or not, and that is what this is, a visual display of that fear and concern in what I personally feel is an inappropriate manner, but these folk feel their concerns are NOT being addressed and felt a desperate need to bring attention to that fact, which if you have ever dealt with children - you'd know how human nature becomes when a need for attention is denied and the attention getting escalates into inappropriate behavior and stupidity.

Same thing, writ large, all it is.
Same response too, either you pound the kid into submission, which is indirectly the font of very MANY of our social issues...

Or you address the freakin concern before it gets out of hand.

Wulf

Quote:
If the hippie libs had protested the war as Unconstitutional, instead of just "War is bad... BOOO" or "We hate violence, guns, and all that icky stuff", or "Bush lied", or "Whaaaa, we dont like the military just like our parents didn't" .... you might have had more of a following...

*SMACK*

Pay ATTENTION Pinky, cause obviously you missed us so-called hippie libs doing *exactly fucking that* but buried under so much propaganda and harassment you'd have to really dig to find any of it.
And Just you WAIT till the rest of that comes out, you think COINTELPRO was bad ?
You have no idea what Cheney and his cronies did, and I am still waitin for someone to fall on a sword, cause if agreements aren't kept, agreements will NOT be kept... grrrr.

Anyhows, I know you're struggling against your own upbringing and prejudices, but damn man, that was a stupid thing to say, especially as you and I BOTH know you did it out of pure knee-jerk reflex and are probably bonking yourself on the head over it now - but I want you to turn it around, look real hard at the conditioning of that reflex and just HOW it got into you, who drilled it home, and WHY.

Take yourself a long moment to examine that, and realize just how badly you've been "played" by the folk of the political establishment you did give your trust to, even if they were not obviously and implicitly part of it.

Those reflexes are a danger to you, a conditioned obedience to an agenda not your own, that benefits you not at all, and so you MUST question it, defy and deny it, or you'll never in your life be able to use your own will to run over that of the powers that be.

Learn. To. Break. The. Chain.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:02 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
...cause in order to argue, you must LISTEN, and neither the Gov Shills or the Downshouters are even TRYING to.

I disagree. I've seen numerous clips of representatives speaking directly to someone shouting and asking them questions or responding, only to be shouted down yet again...and I've seen some who've continued to try several times to address the shouter, to no avail.

Quote:
Why does a person display, but not use a weapon ?

I disagree again. Another reason to consider is that some people might bite into propaganda, been riled up deliberately to see things as more dramatic than they are, be frightened and manipulated into seeing things other than they actually are, and react out of same.

Not all of America is up in arms about the way things are being handled. Not all of America is inflamed about proposed healthcare reform. An awful lot of us are out here, angered and frustrated by what's happening in the town halls and elsewhere, but aren't in there shouting. Some of us recognize the futility in trying to stand up to "shills"...which I consider more pawns in the hands of paid organizations with agendas.

The fact that what's happening is dramatic gets it coverage. If you look, you will find instances of people speaking up against it and against the corporate lobbying interests who are behind it, who, yes, may have concerns, but aren't willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater or take up arms because their emotions are being played upon.

I maintain the people who act out, and those who are riled up by their actions and by other manipulations, are having their fear played upon to increase their emotional responses and for some of them to play into their conscious or unconscious racism and/or fear of something new and different. I do not think for one moment they are in the majority, or even a large minority, of the American people.

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:51 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Or

Could be the start of a civil war...

lalalalalalala

Kidding.

As my wife put it, "Revolution? Are you F'ing kidding me? You mean to tell me that these lazy bastards are going to put down their X-box controllers, their Dvd players and actually go out and start fighting? These couch potatoes, these weak, pampered, idiots, will actually stand up for something? Please!!"

She and I disagree on a lot of things...

But I like to believe that the American people are more than that.

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok.

Im the last dumb guy in this country who believes in things known as "personal accountability", "freedom" and "faith".

I can live with that.

Oh, but wait.. I'm not.

There are actual people who hold to those truths too.

So, maybe...just maybe... there really is "HOPE" (the real stuff).

Or maybe, you're a nutty reactionary dipshit.

You are the one touting your own ignorance, after all.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I disagree. I've seen numerous clips of representatives speaking directly to someone shouting and asking them questions or responding, only to be shouted down yet again...and I've seen some who've continued to try several times to address the shouter, to no avail.

To some, it only counts as listening if you shut the hell up and do what they want you to.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:05 PM

Quote:
Why does a person display, but not use a weapon ?

Often enough, purely to CAUSE fear, and for intimidation. A bank robber who shows a weapon and doesn't use it isn't doing so out of fear, but rather to CAUSE fear in his intended victims.

Just another viewpoint to look at it from...

Mike

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:12 PM

Quote:

Not all of America is up in arms about the way things are being handled. Not all of America is inflamed about proposed healthcare reform. An awful lot of us are out here, angered and frustrated by what's happening in the town halls and elsewhere, but aren't in there shouting. Some of us recognize the futility in trying to stand up to "shills"...which I consider more pawns in the hands of paid organizations with agendas.

Nope, a fair number of us are behind the scenes, quietly contacting our congressional representatives and our senators, and telling them to hold fast, that the loudest "fifteen-percenters" are NOT the majority, and don't speak for us, and that the polls aren't lying to them when they say that 72% of the American people WANT a public option offered. We're also letting them know that they don't have any need to offer any kind of "bipartisanship" to the other side, because no matter how many compromises they make, they aren't going to sway Republican votes in Congress. At this point, they are only losing DEMOCRATIC support by seeking a compromise and a middle ground - they're risking losing as many as 100 Democratic congresspeople, for a net gain of ZERO Republican votes. Where's the logic in that?

We're back here, behind that shouting mob, in the shadows, telling our elected officials what REAL Americans - the ones who aren't bought and paid for by Big Insurance, the Tea-Baggers, and Glenn Beck - are doing and thinking, and letting them know that they've got OUR support if they stay strong, and they're never going to get the support of those who seek to shout them down, no matter what.

Mike

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
First off, I'm not libertarian.

Bytemite, I seriously owe you an apology. Seems I needed reminding that I can be an arrogant jerk sometimes. I'm sorry you had to be the one administering that lesson.

So, you're another anarchist? Or undefined? Sorry, I misjudged and mislabeled you. I'm sure you don't like it any more than I do.

Quote:
Second, I thought you were bringing up how the media supported Bush as a counterpoint to my examples of how the media is supporting Obama, and thus insinuating that I'm neglecting the Bush years out of personal bias.

No, I really wasn't. I thought you were neglecting the Bush years 'cause you thought the media were partisan. I don't think they really are, I think they suck up to anyone their audience seems to like.

Quote:
Third, the tone of your post as I read it set me on edge because I felt you were being condescending to me... Oh, Bytemite, you don't think these people are racist? but it's so obvious! *emoticon of head banging against wall*

That's a little closer to what I was saying, but I see an important distinction. If I may: I've developed a serious pet peeve around this idea, popularized by defenders of the previous admin, that you "CAN NEVER KNOW" what people's motive are from looking at their actions. You know, so Bush never lied, they say, because he never admitted to lying and we can't climb in Bush's head. Kinda makes my blood boil, that one. So I see you giving these wackos a pass based on the same questionable reasoning and I kinda go off on ya--not 'cause I think you're a Bushy but because I think you're not using your discernment. You can never be 100% sure, but I think it's intellectual cowardice--and dangerously naive--to say that we can't and don't make inferences based upon actions, particularly actions as outrageous as bringing assault rifles to see the President. I think it is RATHER OBVIOUS what their intentions were.

Quote:
There are crazies coming out of the woodworks. I make no mistake nor quarrel about that. But we're also lumping together the concerned individuals coming to these townhall meetings with legitimate thought out concerns WITH the crazies.

This is where I get confused. You and Frem, too, seem to want to put the guys with the assault rifles in the "legitimate concerns" category and I'm shocked to see you both being (or seeming to be, of course--I'm not perfect and I admit that I'm still too baffled by your line of argument to be sure) so naive.

I mean, seriously, think. If, say, John Edwards were President today, whose healthcare plan was much more sweeping than Obama's--Obama who's all but sold his soul to Big Pharma on this one already--do you think for a second we would have birthers and deathers and "off with his head" and assault rifles in hand? I just don't see it.

Quote:
Assumptions like that shut down the communication dialogue that allows people to actually figure out just what the problem is and find solutions.

A man doesn't bring an assault rifle so he can dialogue with someone.

Quote:
I mean, not everyone who goes to a townhall or who expresses a strong political opinion, be it left-leaning or right is necessarily crazy or ignorant, but because they're outspoken, they receive only mockery from the media.

Apples and oranges! Strong political opinions /= rifles and death threats.

Quote:
And the media is just deliberately fanning the flames and dividing everyone when we should be trying to seek common ground.

I'm sorry, Bytemite, but this sounds very much like blaming people who talk about racism for racism. The divide is there, deep as our denial can dig. We're all just getting a really good look at now. I think one of the reasons Obama has been so freakin' useless lately is 'cause he's trying to do that--basically, trying to find common ground with people who despise him and actually wish him harm. He's gotta face facts. We all gotta face facts, I think.

Quote:
A political rally or discussion should be open to all people without fear of being labeled a nutjob, or racist, or associated with other negative or uninformed political stances simply because of the other people who may be attending.

Maybe I've missed part of the conversation. Who am I labeling a nutjob who isn't bringing Vera with him to "talk" to the President?

Quote:
But I guess my level of intelligence is "depressing" and I'm not sure why I've earned your ire when I was under the impression that we agreed on a lot of things, so I'm going to pull out now.

Now, wait just a second. Seriously, if I thought you were unintelligent, I would not be depressed that you totally missed my point. I would take it for granted, and wouldn't even have bothered replying to your post. I don't talk to people I think are unintelligent--saves a lot of time.

What would be the point, right?

No, I recognize that you're an insightful addition to this forum. It's just that I give my posts a lot of thought (mostly, usually). And I don't post unless I feel I have something of substance to add to the discussion. So when someone takes a post of mine and comes back with nothing but misunderstanding and partisan bickering I sometimes get a little frustrated--if it happens enough, I get a lot frustrated. My

was an expression of my frustration, but my frustration was not wholly directed at you. I see that I directed too much of it your way, and again, I'm sorry.

Thanks for listening.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:19 PM

Quote:

As my wife put it, "Revolution? Are you F'ing kidding me? You mean to tell me that these lazy bastards are going to put down their X-box controllers, their Dvd players and actually go out and start fighting? These couch potatoes, these weak, pampered, idiots, will actually stand up for something? Please!!"

Sounds like she knows you well.

Mike

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:31 PM

Quote:
Posted by HKCavalier:

So I see you giving these wackos a pass based on the same questionable reasoning and I kinda go off on ya--not 'cause I think you're a Bushy but because I think you're not using your discernment. You can never be 100% sure, but I think it's intellectual cowardice--and dangerously naive--to say that we can't and don't make inferences based upon actions, particularly actions as outrageous as bringing assault rifles to see the President. I think it is RATHER OBVIOUS what their intentions were.

I'm kinda right there with ya on that one, HK. When I saw the story about the guy with the "death to Obama and Michelle and her two stupid kids" sign outside the town hall meeting, it really didn't occur to me that he was most likely a loyal Obama supporter from way back who was personal friends with the President and the first family. No, I think it's pretty easy to figure out that this is someone who hates these people based on either their political views or simply because they're black. And since "her two stupid kids" don't really HAVE any political views to speak of at this time, then it seems pretty clear that it's a race thing, at least to this yahoo.

And instead of anyone on the right saying, "Yeah... that guy's an idiot, a complete nothing, a real knee-biter, and he doesn't in any way speak for us," what we get is a chorus of "but he's just exercising his constitutional rights!" Funny, but I don't remember any of them standing up for the Dixie Chicks for "exercising their constitutional rights" - nope, they wanted them deported, kicked out of the country, they gathered together in their happy little rallies and burned their records and CDs... but defending their "right" to say that they were embarrassed by the President? Not so much.

Mike

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why does a person display, but not use a weapon ?
Why does a small animal show you it's teeth, but not bite you ?

Those kind of "threat displays" are the equivalent of a skunk doing a 180 and stamping it's feet, it's a headsup that you have done something to threaten or frighten them in a major way, which in combination with lack of an effective escape route or mitigation, causes a threat display not as an aggressive response, but as a defensive response.

This administration, coming on the heels of the last one, and instead of decently shitcanning the policies and abuses, taking that ball and running for the end zone ?

That scares the HELL out of people whether they admit it or not, and that is what this is, a visual display of that fear and concern in what I personally feel is an inappropriate manner, but these folk feel their concerns are NOT being addressed and felt a desperate need to bring attention to that fact, which if you have ever dealt with children - you'd know how human nature becomes when a need for attention is denied and the attention getting escalates into inappropriate behavior and stupidity.

Same thing, writ large, all it is.
Same response too, either you pound the kid into submission, which is indirectly the font of very MANY of our social issues...

Not sure why you're giving these folks so much credit, Frem--romanticizing them, even. Why are you defending men who bring assault rifles with them to hear the President speak? To continue your metaphor, these "kids" were more than willing to take GWB's "beatings" and like it. But now there's a black man in office and it's payback time. You know how this goes. Children of an abusive system, they can't strike out against their parents, their culture; they've blinded themselves to the harm they've suffered at the hands of their supposed care-givers--so they seek an outsider that they CAN see, and they project all of their rage upon HIM--who, yes, may in many ways be doing exactly what their chosen authority has been doing all along.

I almost never disagree with your analyses but linking these "displays" to the Bush admin. the way you just did, doesn't wash. Sure, if the audience for these displays were Government itself, then your skunk analogy would be apt enough. One or two men with assault rifles cannot topple a government--but they sure as hell can assassinate a single man. No, I'm sorry, it's who's running the government, not how. No, these boys would NEVER bring their guns to threaten a white President. They would never choose to remind a white President of how far they're willing to go. No, they're trying to remind a black man of his place.

The fear is there, but it's not the fear of the State--it's the fear that White America will soon be on the outs, fear that White America will soon be getting what their guilt and shame tell them they deserve.

Nothing is ever so feared as the loss of control.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 2:30 PM

PLAINJAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"--oh, I believe that 100%. That's why I was out there demonstrating right along with them during Bush.

But where were you and all these good men when Bush was in power, abusing our civil rights, trampling our Constitution, and all the rest? I don't get that--Obama hasn't even BEGUN to do the kind of things Bush did with impunity for eight years, yet the Right has made him the anti-Christ in eight MONTHS. Weird...

"I will not sit idly by and let tyranny take hold in my country" ... uhhh, we just had a tyrant, by every definition I've ever seen.

Tyrant (according to Webster):

1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution
b : a usurper of sovereignty

2 a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally
b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

So where was 'ya?

As far as I know, Bush didn't send out Union thugs to intimidate people at Town Hall Meetings. Nor did the war protesters (or any of the other protesters) have anyone actively trying to shut them up. There were counter-demonstrations, yes, but the opposition has that right (Bill of Rights says that, yes?). The media covered it. Nobody called those people "illiterate" or "rednecks" or anything else for using their God-given voices to protest what they felt was wrong. And no, I'm not a particular fan of Bush. But he never set up a "report your neighbor" hotline. I haven't vilified Obama in eight months, he's done that himself. It stuns me rigid that people can't seem to wrap their heads around that. They're all so blinded by hatred for Bush and the so-called Right Wing Nut-jobs that they can't even see what's going on in front of them today. Let it go. Look around you and see what is going on in the real world, not what the news tells you, but what you really see. Stop dividing up into Republican and Democrat camps and look at what is happening in this country!

Read George Washington's farewell address and then look me in the eye and tell me that this is what he and his colleagues fought to create. We are SO off track. It angers me and breaks my heart at the same time to sit by and watch it happen. It hurts almost as much to listen to some of you so-called Browncoats spouting this kind of stuff. What the hell is up with that? What happened to belief in individual freedom? If believing that we all have a responsibility to make sure our rights aren't taken away and being willing to fight for that belief is wrong, I don't want to be right. If that makes me the bad guy, then so be it. I'm a bad guy.

Sometimes I really do wonder what goes on in people's heads that they insist on being made into sheep. Think for yourself, for God's sake, don't just spout the party line. And don't complain to me when you're sitting in an internment camp somewhere, I won't be able to do anything about it at that point.

And, just for the record, I'm not a Christian. I'm not a right-winger. I'm not a racist. All those things you are thinking of calling me right now are incorrect assumptions on your part. I am simply a realist. I try to live my life by common sense values and I don't want any interference from people not directly involved in my life.

This, again, is why I have ulcers.

Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 2:42 PM

PLAINJAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"--oh, I believe that 100%. That's why I was out there demonstrating right along with them during Bush.

But where were you and all these good men when Bush was in power, abusing our civil rights, trampling our Constitution, and all the rest? I don't get that--Obama hasn't even BEGUN to do the kind of things Bush did with impunity for eight years, yet the Right has made him the anti-Christ in eight MONTHS. Weird...

"I will not sit idly by and let tyranny take hold in my country" ... uhhh, we just had a tyrant, by every definition I've ever seen.

Tyrant (according to Webster):

1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution
b : a usurper of sovereignty

2 a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally
b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

So where was 'ya?

Thanks, Niki - couldn't have said it better myself. All these chairborne rangers, where were they for the last eight years?

Apparently, as Wulfie said, they weren't paying attention. But NOW they are, so we better look out!

Mike

Here's an even better question: how come so many of the "awake" people have suddenly fallen asleep? If you were awake and paying attention over the last eight years, why shut your eyes now? Why are you blind all of a sudden?

I don't consider myself a chairbourne ranger-- although you probably should find a term that won't offend those handicapped people out there who haven't got a choice--but I'll say that until the shooting actually starts, its hard to be anything but. I don't think you're really suggesting that we go out and start shooting, are you? I don't really want that. I hope it won't come to that. All I'm saying is this: when it does, we all have some tough choices to make about where our loyalties really lie. I will be out there on the side of freedom. And as I've said before, if that makes me one of the bad guys, so be it.

Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:29 PM

UNABASHEDVIXEN

Kwicko said:

Quote:
And instead of anyone on the right saying, "Yeah... that guy's an idiot, a complete nothing, a real knee-biter, and he doesn't in any way speak for us," what we get is a chorus of "but he's just exercising his constitutional rights!" Funny, but I don't remember any of them standing up for the Dixie Chicks for "exercising their constitutional rights" - nope, they wanted them deported, kicked out of the country, they gathered together in their happy little rallies and burned their records and CDs... but defending their "right" to say that they were embarrassed by the President? Not so much.

Amen, brother. What bothers me so much about this debate is folks saying "it's his right to carry an assult rifle in public and in the vicinity of the President" like that's a reason. It's not. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or have to. I can say "I hate Jews," but that doesn't make me a defender of the Constitution. That makes me an anti-Semitic asshole. I made this point on another thread, but I'll make it again: Your right to exercise your rights does not give you the right to infringe on the rights of others (okay, that was a lot of "right"s). Nor are you a noble defender of rights and freedoms if you repeatedly pick and choose which rights you defend. If you're for free speech, you're for all free speech, even that of assholes who hate Jews and/or assholes who are ashamed of their President and say so publicly (for the record, I don't think the Dixie Chicks are assholes. I think they're amazing patriots for not backing down. I also don't hate Jewish people. I am an asshole at times, I'm sure, but not in this case).

As for the direction the US is going, do you have problems? Absolutely. Is the nation going to hell in a handbasket? Not even remotely. The US enjoys one of the most free and democratic systems in the world. Move to the DRC or Saudi Arabia(especially if you're a woman) for a while and see if your opinion of your rights and freedoms changes. I'm not saying don't care about these things, I'm just saying put it in some perspective, please. The nutters on both sides need to take a deep breath and own up to the fact that there is no revolution, good or bad, waiting in the wings. There is only a system democratic societies have embraced as the worst way to govern ourselves, except for all the others.

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People before profits

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Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:34 PM