More support for independent police. Still spelled with e's by Fremdfirma

A good first step. The practice seems to be that police get away with murder and rentacops just get away with smaller crimes. We've had a lot of problems with the local "campus cops" even though they're not actual police. I was commenting yesterday though that local police fail to investigate murders and spend their time giving out seat belt tickets instead, which is driven by cowardice and petty greed.

A community would have to hire its own police directly, and it's own govt. doctors, etc. I've been trying to work on a formula for power that would prevent an abuse of power. Firing them does help, but you're just transfering that power to a more central authority now: The person who fires them.

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Friday, August 28, 2009 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
A good first step. The practice seems to be that police get away with murder and rentacops just get away with smaller crimes.

Well, actual professional pride is a pretty good check against that, especially with an autocratic hardass backing it up.

One of my goons came to me this morning and mentioned something, ironically, the campus cops had pulled and then asked me, not that he would do such a thing, but what if one of our people did ?

I looked at him, slowly turned my gaze to the boat, and back to him again, then went back to the morning paperwork without a word.
Wouldn't actually DO that, but seeing as some of the folk on the payroll ain't much brighter than a bag of rocks, I surely plan to let em think it.

The smarter, younger ones fear something else enough to not be a problem, for many this is the first time they've ever been given real responsibility, real respect, and on top of it a feeling of tradition and being part of something "good" - one reason we still use Detex clocks instead of more modern things, because the solemn rite of passing the clock is more than just a shift change, it's an affirmation of the responsibility you are trusted with by the site.

The mere barest thought of betraying such a confidence in them, fills them with abject horror, and that's the way it SHOULD be.

Quote:
Firing them does help, but you're just transfering that power to a more central authority now: The person who fires them.

Not if it has to be a unanimous decision of the community itself, which is entirely possible given how podunk these little burgs are, some of the "communities" in question are naught more than a single apartment complex of less than 200 units total.

Requiring unanimous consent is the key, cause people HAVE to be involved in the decision, and they HAVE to work it out, there's no way to dodge the responsibility or shove it off on someone else - which means they must also ACCEPT responsibility for such decisions, and that stops 95% of the "bullshit" right then and there.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 28, 2009 7:32 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Someone tripped us to these guys earlier this morning, apparently communities buying their own police services has a longer tradition than suspected.

Check out a movie called Kuffs.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104647/

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, August 28, 2009 8:38 AM

That looks worth a rental, thanks for the tip.

Tonight's gonna be interesting, since this one I gotta do personally, there's two folk with missing cats and nobody else even has a hope in hell of finding them - so in desperation the site owner is betting on my almost supernatural rapport with animals, since the humans are quite distraught about it.

-F

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Friday, August 28, 2009 10:50 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That looks worth a rental, thanks for the tip.

Tonight's gonna be interesting, since this one I gotta do personally, there's two folk with missing cats and nobody else even has a hope in hell of finding them - so in desperation the site owner is betting on my almost supernatural rapport with animals, since the humans are quite distraught about it.

-F

You'll like it. It does a pretty good job of explaining the private police concept, their interaction with local law enforcement and the community, their problems (training, response time, turkeys, movie 'bad guys', etc.), and the scene where he buys his gun will bring any good conservative to tears.

Bruce Boxleitner in his finest pre-B5 low budget comedy/action movie role. Seriously, where is the catagory for Best Supporting Actor in a low budget semi-B cop movie (or what today would be 'straight to DVD, but not too bad')?

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, August 31, 2009 12:28 PM

bump so I can think about this and respond later

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Monday, August 31, 2009 8:04 PM

Ah, well, I found the cats, btw.

Most humans screw it up by looking at the environment, routing and hiding places from a human perspective - and miss some really obvious stuff that way.

-F

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Wednesday, September 2, 2009 3:08 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Dude... I totally had a response in here yesterday.

Where'd it go?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, September 3, 2009 9:01 PM

Seems a trend in motion, it does.

Fire chief shot by cop in Ark. court over tickets
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090903/ap_on_re_us/us_shot_in_court

By JON GAMBRELL, Associated Press Writer Jon Gambrell, Associated Press Writer – Thu Sep 3, 7:41 pm ET

JERICHO, Ark. – It was just too much, having to return to court twice on the same day to contest yet another traffic ticket, and Fire Chief Don Payne didn't hesitate to tell the judge what he thought of the police and their speed traps.

The response from cops? They shot him. Right there in court.

Payne ended up in the hospital, but his shooting last week brought to a boil simmering tensions between residents of this tiny former cotton city and their police force. Drivers quickly learn to slow to a crawl along the gravel roads and the two-lane highway that run through Jericho, but they say sometimes that isn't enough to fend off the city ticketing machine.

"You can't even get them to answer a call because normally they're writing tickets," said Thomas Martin, chief investigator for the Crittenden County Sheriff's Department. "They're not providing a service to the citizens."

Now the police chief has disbanded his force "until things calm down," a judge has voided all outstanding police-issued citations and sheriff's deputies are asking where all the money from the tickets went. With 174 residents, the city can keep seven police officers on its rolls but missed payments on police and fire department vehicles and saw its last business close its doors a few weeks ago.

"You can't even buy a loaf of bread, but we've got seven police officers," said former resident Larry Harris, who left town because he said the police harassment became unbearable.

Sheriff's deputies patrolled Jericho until the 1990s, when the city received grant money to start its own police force, Martin said.

Police often camped out in the department's two cruisers along the highway that runs through town, waiting for drivers who failed to slow down when they reached the 45 mph zone ringing Jericho. Residents say the ticketing got out of hand.

"When I first moved out here, they wrote me a ticket for going 58 mph in my driveway," 75-year-old retiree Albert Beebe said.

The frequent ticketing apparently led to the vandalization of the cruisers, and the department took to parking the cars overnight at the sheriff's department eight miles away.

It was anger over traffic tickets that brought Payne to city hall last week, said his lawyer, Randy Fishman. After Payne failed to get a traffic ticket dismissed on Aug. 27, police gave Payne or his son another ticket that day. Payne, 39, returned to court to vent his anger to Judge Tonya Alexander, Fishman said.

It's unclear exactly what happened next, but Martin said an argument between Payne and the seven police officers who attended the hearing apparently escalated to a scuffle, ending when an officer shot Payne from behind.

Doctors in Memphis, Tenn., removed a .40-caliber bullet from Payne's hip bone, Martin said. Another officer suffered a grazing wound to his finger from the bullet.

Martin declined to name the officer who shot Payne. It's unclear if the officer has been disciplined.

Prosecutor Lindsey Fairley said Thursday that he didn't plan to file any felony charges against the officer or Payne. Fairley, reached at his home, said Payne could face a misdemeanor charge stemming from the scuffle, but that would be up to the city's judge. He said he didn't remember the name of the officer who fired the shot.

Payne remains in good condition at the Regional Medical Center at Memphis. He referred questions to his lawyer.

"I know that he was unarmed and I know he was shot," Fishman said. "None of that sounds too good for the city to me."

After the shooting, Martin said police chief Willie Frazier told the sheriff's department he was disbanding the police force "until things calm down." The sheriff's department has been patrolling the town in the meantime.

A call to a city hall number listed as Frazier's went to a fax machine. Frazier did not respond to a written request for comment sent to his office.

Alexander, the judge, has voided all the tickets written by the department both inside the city and others written outside of its jurisdiction — citations that the department apparently had no power to write. Alexander, who works as a lawyer in West Memphis, resigned as Jericho's judge in the aftermath of the shooting, Fairley said. She did not return calls for comment.

Meanwhile, sheriff's deputies want to know where the money from the traffic fines went. Martin said that it appeared the $150 tickets weren't enough to protect the city's finances. Sheriff's deputies once had to repossess one of the town's police cruisers for failure to pay on a lease, and the state Forestry Commission recently repossessed one of the city's fire trucks because of nonpayment.

City hall has been shuttered since the shooting, and any records of how the money was spent are apparently locked inside. No one answered when a reporter knocked on the door on Tuesday.

Mayor Helen Adams declined to speak about the shooting when approached outside her home, saying she had just returned from a doctor's appointment and couldn't talk.

"We'll get with you after all this comes through," Adams said Tuesday before shutting the door.

A white Ford Crown Victoria sat in her driveway with "public property" license plates. A sales brochure advertising police equipment sat in the back seat of the car.

Seriously - it really is a toxic culture of corruption.

-F

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Friday, September 4, 2009 3:28 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, Frem... thanks to this article, I got NO sleep last night.

None. As in, Im only awake typing because Starbucks opens at 5.

More on why later.

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Friday, September 4, 2009 7:36 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, so here is why I couldnt sleep, thanks to Frem posting this article (Fuck you Frem, you 39 y/o bastard)

I read this article about some decent guy going to court, to fight his son getting a speeding ticket. This fireman, decried the corruption that he saw, not once but twice! And the douchbag jackboots shot him for it.

Now, originally, reading it... I was wondering why the HELL there wasn't more of an outcry. I mean, COME ON! These pigs were basically drumming up cash from innocent people, on trumped up charges... and THEN, when someone challenged it, THEY SHOT HIM IN COURT!

I mean, COME ON! WTF!!???

So I got good and mad. You see, I've built up this idea in my head of Middle America, and the West. Its this Eden. Its this wholesome place, full of dirt roads and apple trees. A place where the last vestiges of the American ideals stand.

Right? Follow me, cause it gets weirder.

So, these jackboots are using a good wholesome part of America as their own piggybank. They write all these tickets and keep the money for themselves.

7 cops for 190 people. Which, doing the math, means 1 cop for some 30 odd people. Which struck me as strange, since the ratio is around 1 cop to ever 500 citizens (in most of the US)... more on that in a bit.

So I was mad. These little Hitler wannabes were ruining, and using the people of this little town. Hurting a community, destroying decency... and where was the outcry?

Understand, again, the Midwest represents a safe haven of all that I hope for our American people. The East Coast can burn, as its full of the unmentionables, but not out there. Not in the land of happy apple trees, and dirt roads. Not there.

So, I decided to look into this town. Heres what I found...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho,_Arkansas

"92.93% Black."

Now, my first reaction was "Whew". I mean, ok that explains the amount of cops, right? And besides.. the cops who shot the fireman were probably black...

But.

For some reason, I was still mad. And, around 330 in the morning, after not being able to sleep, I realized why.

Because it was still wrong. And what could have happened if my wife and I drove through that town? And the pigs took a disliking to us?

White or black... these cops were put in a position of power, which they obviously abused. And the town, white or black, suffered terribly for it.

AND NO ONE GIVES A DAMN.

AND WHEN SOMEONE DID GIVE A DAMN< THEY SHOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, the "judge" quit... and the courthouse is shut down while they shred all of the evidence... but where is the outcry?

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Friday, September 4, 2009 9:03 AM

Right here, Wulf, right here.

And there will be more - you really think that with a hook that deep and clear, I'll not rile up local activists and get the hounds on em ?

At the very least Motorists.org and TheNewspaper.com - since the police in question were exploiting traffic law, as is all too common.

Remember, my spiritual son, I went head-to-head with the same shit in my former township, it's not uncommon ANYWHERE that a small town has it's own police force, and the fact that folks are finally standing up to it is a good sign.

Hopefully the guy in question suffers no lasting health defects, cause he deserves a medal, he stood and delivered when it counted, you ask me.

And you have *finally* begun to really, honestly question and examine your own innate racism - also a very good sign: folk thump you on the head about it not out of malice, but so you'll notice.

Ain't a question of race, or even culture - it's a question of being poor and powerless, the social dynamics of authority and power in the hands of folk not held to account for it, whether it be a crack dealer down on eighth street with a 9mm in his pocket, or a judge, it's about power, and principles, and how an excess of one leads to a lack of the other.

And you've begun to see that, see it past color, past culture, past social standing, into the very truth of what it IS.

And now you're pissed - good, savor that rage, but don't let it consume you, pound that raw molten mass into a fine steel blade, cut small, clean and quick.

And the first place you need to look close, and apply that scalpel is to your own biases and prejudices, not just of race, but top to bottom, examine WHY you feel the way you do, how that came to be, and what the roots of those events are.

Not easy, I'll not lie - but that you're willing to take the steps is why I give you so much less shit about it then most, cause I see potential.

And while your at it, re-examine your arsenal.
Look, guns are fine enough for individual, personal, self defense - but as a regimen for social change they're all but worthless.

It's also a question of scale, Mano.
It's a proven fact that more people in this world have been killed at the behest of the stroke of a pen, or a carefully worded speech, than ever died to a bullet.

THOSE weapons are available to YOU - without a permit, requiring no concealment, and barring grevious personal harm, cannot be taken from you whatsoever.

Look at all the folk you know, being manipulated against their own interests by BOTH sides of the political spectrum, some playing on the racism they taught to those folk in order to control em, and playing against their fears on the other by exploiting them ?

Look at the very propaganda you've only started to pick apart and examine for what it REALLY is no matter who is offering it ?
(complete with snicker about my posting title, no doubt!)

Those people could be your allies, you know in your own heart exactly what the questions were which started your cascade "failure to buy this shit" and thus, how to get those people to start asking em themselves.

You know how to dismantle and void the propaganda.

These things are more powerful weapons than any caliber of pistol or rifle, at their extreme, more powerful than fission weapons, for surely they've killed more people.

They've also SAVED more people.

And I do believe you need some time to think about all that, so I shall leave you to it, my son.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 4, 2009 9:33 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem,

If you anarchists want to push your beliefs.... IMHO, you've got to figure a way of explaining Darfur ect...

When most people hear anarchy, they just think missing body parts.

Youve got to have a plan that shows that without government, people will be able to live their lives without the threat of some warlord coming in and "cutting the rose" so to speak.

Im going to think about what you said, and try and nap... damn, without sleep Im starting to see Leprechauns...

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Friday, September 4, 2009 9:46 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I really wonder sometimes, whether Im cursing my offspring to the same hell I saw.

Stuck between 2 worlds, and never fitting in either.

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Friday, September 4, 2009 1:36 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

So I got good and mad. You see, I've built up this idea in my head of Middle America, and the West. Its this Eden. Its this wholesome place, full of dirt roads and apple trees. A place where the last vestiges of the American ideals stand.

That's because you've never actually lived there. I have. It ain't pretty.

Quote:

So, I decided to look into this town. Heres what I found...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho,_Arkansas

"92.93% Black."

Now, my first reaction was "Whew". I mean, ok that explains the amount of cops, right?

So your reaction was "Whew" when you found out the town was over 92% black, huh? Why was that? Because it validates your hatred of blacks? Because it means that sure, the town's dysfunctional as fuck, but that's only because it's mostly black, right?

What makes you a pathetic racist, Wulfie, isn't just that you have these thoughts - it's that you never question them. It's never occurred to you to ask yourself WHY you think these things.

And until you do, you give people like me all the reason we'll ever need to never take you seriously. After all, why would I bother trying to have a reasoned discussion with such a horrible person? You also take away from any valid point you might have to offer, because your racism negates everything else you say. The way PN is with Jews, you are with blacks.

Mike

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Friday, September 4, 2009 1:57 PM

God, I don't even want to touch this one, but Darfur is just another govt. thing: We hired Al Qaeda to invade to steal the oil, and the Sudanese govt. used the opportunity to try to exterminate an ethnic minority. This sort of thing happens in places with primitive populations, like Germany.

(Also, look up races of africa. The continent is more genetically diverse than the rest of the world combined)

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Friday, September 4, 2009 5:48 PM

Well, firstly, you got it backwards.

Places like Darfur and Somalia, they ain't the product of Anarchy - they're the end result of Government.

They are what happens when the powers that be take it to a point where it's clearly unsustainable, then loot the place and head for a balmy tropical island, leaving the disarmed and beaten down populace at the mercy of former military and police, which take to petty warlordism like a calf to milk, and of course, they have all the hardware.

Seriously, is not what happened in Jericho more or less petty warlordism itself ?

That said, who said one needs to jump from one radical extreme to the other, the point of the matter isn't Anarchy, but Liberty, as much as the people desire - it's a sliding scale, not an on/off switch.

Hell, even I am tolerant, grudgingly, of SOME political infrastructure cause I happen to be a lazy old bastard - I have mentioned that I don't mind payin taxes for certain things, like infrastructure, roads, public education, hospitals, healthcare, power grid, internet, although with the understanding that if the peoples tax money pays for it, the people OWN it, and thus it is a public resource - none of this tax funded power grid then run by a monopoly corporation for it's own profit bullshit.

What you do, first thing, is go through the books with a chainsaw, both legal and economic.

I mean, do we really NEED two different ordinances outlawing gum chewing in the park, seriously ?
Is this really THAT MUCH of a problem ?
Or did you assholes just wanna harrass a particular someone, or use it to make a buck off the citations ?
*CHOP*

Why are we budgeting four hundred bucks for an inkjet printer when we already have three and y'all only even USE one ?
*CHOP*

What's this eight hundred bucks for public office happiness fund ?
Uh huh, yeah...
*CHOP*

And you KEEP cutting, till folks start sayin "whoa, hey, stop, we need that!".

Every law oughta come with an automatic sunset provision anyway, had we done that we wouldn't have come to this messy point of things so quickly - and none of this re-install shit like they did with the Patriot Act, nuh-uh, has to be re-written from scratch and the whole process from beginning to end started over, otherwise you're handing too much power to folk who I wouldn't trust with a damn pogo stick, much less public office.

-F

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:56 AM

There.

Will Grigg, via Lew Rockwell, Radley Balko of The Agitator, along with several others have picked up the ball and run it forward a little, and they're all quite widely read - I am much appreciative of Will's investment given his physical condition at this time, he's a tough ole codger, but I worry for him and Korin.

Anyhows, imma see if we can't break this tempest outta the teapot, see if we can raise some hell over it.

-F

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 7:22 AM

BYTEMITE

Read a little further Kwicko. It was awesome. Wulf realized that this could be happening anywhere, no matter the population dynamics, and he got good and pissed on behalf of the population being oppressed by the police force.

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Read a little further Kwicko. It was awesome. Wulf realized that this could be happening anywhere, no matter the population dynamics, and he got good and pissed on behalf of the population being oppressed by the police force.

Oh, I read it all. And still, Wulf's FIRST reaction when finding out the town was overwhelmingly black? "Whew. That explains the amount of cops, right?"

WHAT THE FUCK?!

Right there, Wulf is outright saying that he thinks the town has far too many cops, UNTIL he finds out that the town is made up of almost 93% black people. At that point, he understands why you need so many cops, because you know how "those people" are, right?

So he END UP being pissed off, but that wasn't where he started off. He started off thinking something along the lines of, "Well, that figures, because they're black, and they need to be whipped into line." And then EVENTUALLY he realized that it was wrong no matter what fucking color the people in the town were. THAT is what pisses me off.

I read the article, and was just pissed. I didn't need to go look up the racial breakdown of the town to be mad, or to assuage my anger. Why did Wulf not only feel the need to do that, but then feel the need to brag about it? THAT is where he fucks things up, in being so gaddamned proud of being so goddamned wrong.

Mike

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 8:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think that Frem is heartened by the fact that while Wulf began with racist assumptions, he was able to move past them. This is an improvement. While we are all dismayed that he started with such a rediculous bias, we can all be more pleased at where he ended up.

For my own part, I don't think 7 police officers are necessarily too many. It depends on what the populace wants.

If they want an officer on duty 24/7, then you might not be able to do with much less than seven. Three shifts, two days off, and accommodation for sick leave and vacations may make seven the magic number.

However, if the citizenry are content with Mayberry style coverage where you have 1 Sheriff and 1 Deputy, and you might have to go wake up the sheriff at home and wait half an hour for him to respond in the event of an emergency, then they can do with less.

The problem seems to be (you know, beyond the murder in the courtroom which is, uh, indescribably heinous) that there were seven officers but the citizens were STILL not getting the broad coverage and quick response they wanted.

Seven officers isn't instantly bad in and of itself.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 8:31 AM

Quote:

The problem seems to be (you know, beyond the murder in the courtroom which is, uh, indescribably heinous) that there were seven officers but the citizens were STILL not getting the broad coverage and quick response they wanted.

Whoa, T - not "murdered", but SHOT. Still heinous and unacceptable, though.

And yeah, the problem seems to be that the cops were hired to do a job, and instead decided that they'd use the people of the town (and people passing through, no doubt) as their personal ATM, and just wring them dry with bullshit charges. Meanwhile, no actual police work was being done.

Mike

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 8:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Quite right, Mike. I do keep forgetting that the gentleman survived their efforts at murder.

Attempted homicide, then? I do abhor the sanitized 'excessive use of force' that tends to be used in these sorts of situations.

I mean, really, they couldn't restrain an unarmed man without a bullet? It makes me sick.

I guess the best interpretation of events is "Accidental discharge of a firearm due to criminally bad gun handling techniques and abominable training," but I'm not sure if I'm feeling generous just now.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 12:43 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Frem - I need some help on this one.

First, disclosure: my sister-in-law's husband is a cop, and a fine one in my opinion. What makes him a good one is exactly what would make me a terrible one: he is very patient. If I had to deal with all the people behaving badly on a daily basis like he does I'd be in jail myself.
For instance - He was just in court because he was back-up in a case where 3 crack heads playing poker got into a fight because one accused another of cheating and tried to stab him. This is not a daily call, but it is a daily possibility.
This was followed in the same week by the case where a guy who'd od'd on mushrooms got into a fight with an EMT (trying to help the guy into an ambulance), and accused the cop (he interceded on the EMT's behalf) of police brutality.
It's a no brainer to me that why after seeing all of this human behavior some cops don't feel a bit better than John Q. Public. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a cop in Detroit - not giving them a pass, just saying, you could not pay me enough.

I'm sure you run a tight ship, but Private Cops sounds a bit like Private Army, or Local Blackwater, with all the same opportunities for misconduct and abuse as any city employee. Their boss has to answer to the community but they only have to answer to their boss, and if the boss is a shit then we're back to the thing you want to replace.

As always, I'm just looking for better understanding.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Saturday, September 5, 2009 5:01 PM

Piz, the difference is that private cops have to answer directly to the community they service, and (at least so far, thankfully) don't have a mafia to back them up when they do wrong - which the bluesuits do in the Fraternal Order of Police, Police Unions and other save-our-ass organisations which then misuse police resources to blackmail or threaten, as well as parlaying on the dependence of judges, prosecutors and the court on the police, you see ?

The whole justice system is kind of a shell game anyhow in that the State controls every aspect from assigning attorneys, to what witnesses can be called, what evidence can be submitted, failing to crack prosecutors on the knuckles for violation of discovery, or cops for testilying...

Not to mention so called random jury selection software that's anything but, loaded jury pools and illegal jury instructions on top of coercion and arm-twisting, all to achieve a guilty verdict which is what the State is invested in finding.

That ain't the fair trial required constitutionally, not by a long shot, is it now ?

And that doesn't even include the whole scam of bail, often enough set at a multiple of a persons entire assets, thus giving rise to the scam of bail bonding, or even refused entire to hold someone in prison while the prosecutor repeatedly postpones the case in efforts to force a guilty plea, with of course, the collusion of the judge.

That's part of it too, the very interdependancy leads inevitably to collusion and corruption.

Another check against that, for a single community or apartment complex, is to use private security with no law enforcement powers beyond those of any other citizen, or for a small township, not giving police the authority to write traffic citations - although as corrupt as most city councils are, that one would be a bit of trick, wouldn't it ?

Theoretically my folk at the apt complexes COULD write someone a ticket for violating that 10mph speed limit sign, which most folk do here and there, but anyone who'd even try such a stunt would get the verbal equivalent of a jalapeno enema followed by a pink slip in damn short order.

I take something of an authoritarian stance with my "knuckle-draggers", which I try to avoid hiring in the first place - but the younger guys, it's professional pride that keeps them in their place, something we could, and should, cultivate in every aspect of security and law enforcement, and all too often don't.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 4:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Quite right, Mike. I do keep forgetting that the gentleman survived their efforts at murder.

Attempted homicide, then? I do abhor the sanitized 'excessive use of force' that tends to be used in these sorts of situations.

I mean, really, they couldn't restrain an unarmed man without a bullet? It makes me sick.

I guess the best interpretation of events is "Accidental discharge of a firearm due to criminally bad gun handling techniques and abominable training," but I'm not sure if I'm feeling generous just now.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

We're in complete agreement on that, Tony. If you did it to a cop, it would be AT THE VERY LEAST "Assault with a deadly weapon", if not "Attempted capital murder". If THEY do it to you, for no other reason than vengeance or because they're annoyed by your questions, then it's "Accidental discharge of a firearm" and a letter of reprimand in their file jacket.

Mike

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 9:10 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Piz, the difference is that private cops have to answer directly to the community they service, and (at least so far, thankfully) don't have a mafia to back them up when they do wrong - which the bluesuits do in the Fraternal Order of Police, Police Unions and other save-our-ass organisations which then misuse police resources to blackmail or threaten, as well as parlaying on the dependence of judges, prosecutors and the court on the police, you see ?

Thx Frem - I don't see, mainly because I don't have the experience - for now I'll go on faith in your observations.

Big Picture, human nature being what it is, ANY GROUP is susceptible to ethics creep unless they have deterrents, whether in the form of competition or community opposition. Cops or Big Insurance. In fact, that seems to a trend we should just factor in.

My 2 concerns are:

1. any time money is attached corruption is lurking.

2. We already pay for police/security. If it's broken, let's fix it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The whole justice system is kind of a shell game anyhow in that the State controls every aspect from assigning attorneys, to what witnesses can be called, what evidence can be submitted, failing to crack prosecutors on the knuckles for violation of discovery, or cops for testilying...

Not to mention so called random jury selection software that's anything but, loaded jury pools and illegal jury instructions on top of coercion and arm-twisting, all to achieve a guilty verdict which is what the State is invested in finding.

That ain't the fair trial required constitutionally, not by a long shot, is it now ?

And that doesn't even include the whole scam of bail, often enough set at a multiple of a persons entire assets, thus giving rise to the scam of bail bonding, or even refused entire to hold someone in prison while the prosecutor repeatedly postpones the case in efforts to force a guilty plea, with of course, the collusion of the judge.

That's part of it too, the very interdependancy leads inevitably to collusion and corruption.

I would like to hear Hero's take on this - just another brick.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 1:30 PM

Quote:
We already pay for police/security. If it's broken, let's fix it.

I am not sure it can be 'fixed' any more than a cancerous tumor can - look at the abuse of Tasers, which I pointed out would happen and got shouted down for, and now here we are - how do we stuff the Genie back in the lamp, when the process that would hold them accountable is fully under their control ?

Same with the alphabet and intel goons, we can't hold em accountable if they never tell us, and when we DO find out and they LAUGH IN OUR FACE when we issue subpeanos - what then ?

Think about it, what are we gonna do, have them arrest themselves ?
Who we gonna get to do it ?
Case in point, that damn Fed task force is STILL in Detroit, still soaking up funds we can NOT afford, and unable to make headway cause the DPD is utterly refusing to cooperate, giving them the mushroom treatment, and actively harrassing their members.

And so, we go to the final control we still DO control - the purse strings.

Seriously, why pay for our own abuse ?
Why feed a guard dog who sucks up to the burglars and attacks your kids ?

Cut the bastards off, I say - ESPECIALLY the alphabet goons, not only do they have huge budgets they don't have to account for, everybody damn well knows they're supplementing em via the drug trade and no one dares call em on it.
I'd lay right good odds that if you cut em off, locked em out of the buildings and took back every ounce of public property in their possession that our drug trafficking problem would fall off by at least 40-50% immediately, not to mention terrorism both domestic and foreign would become significantly less of a threat, given that our own agencies are responsible for more terrorism against our people than any other collective in the history of our nation.

Win the "War on (some) Drugs" and the GWOT all in a single sweep and save a damned lot of money which can be put to better uses in the doing.

And when a police dept doesn't cooperate, and abuses the populace - the same!

Most especially, every single abuse, judgement or lawsuit payout should come DIRECTLY from the payroll budget of those responsible, both the cops who perped it, and the ones who stood silently aside and let it happen, believe me, it'd put a damper on that shit very quick, cause as it stands, we pay them, they abuse us, and then we wind up payin the lawsuit - what kinda sense does THAT make ?

My way of lookin at it, I pay someone to do a job, and they not only do not do it, but actively make the situation worse, not only ain't they gettin paid, imma take issue with their conduct!

But the not gettin paid, that's the important part, cause as you say, money is a motivator - look at white collar crime, and how some asswipe rips off $150,000.00 and gets probation and a $15,000.00 fine - laughing all the way to the bank (which they likely own) they are, and the same with cops laughing at us paying out the lawsuits for our own abuse, what an irony, yes ?

Simple, stop financing it, and it stops happening.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 2:33 PM

Quote:

And so, we go to the final control we still DO control - the purse strings.

Seriously, why pay for our own abuse ?
Why feed a guard dog who sucks up to the burglars and attacks your kids ?

Thanks for saying out loud what almost no one wants to admit. These fuckers are doing this shit because it enriches them, in money and in power. Take away the money, and see if they're still willing to do their job for nothing more than the "power" - the freebies they get, and the things they get away with.

Mike

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 2:51 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
God, I don't even want to touch this one, but Darfur is just another govt. thing: We hired Al Qaeda to invade to steal the oil, and the Sudanese govt. used the opportunity to try to exterminate an ethnic minority. This sort of thing happens in places with primitive populations, like Germany.

(Also, look up races of africa. The continent is more genetically diverse than the rest of the world combined)

Primitive populations? I hope you are joking here. For a start, Germany pre war was one of the great hubs of western civilisation and modernist thinking. Noted for its populations advances in philosophy, science, music, literature....hardly primitive.

Sudan - like much of Africa is a complex mix of circumstances - including ethnic tensions that were exacerbated by the colonisation of Africa, which paid scant regard to where different ethnicities lived - they just divided up the place based on resources and whim really. The experience of colonisation and the post colonial era has really left its mark on Africa in a number of ways too numerous to go into here, but add to that an active arms trade and provision of arms by western powers to various ethnic groups, poor and corrupt leadership, religious tensions, generations of instability - you have a revolting situation for the poor bloody locals .

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 3:38 PM

Magons, I'm pretty sure that was a joke. DreamTrove, like many of us here, has a somewhat skewed sense of humour.

Mike

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:03 PM

Magonsdaughter,

That was, of course, a joke, albeit a sick one.

My point was that the MSM is always portraying african conflicts as "primitive" when in reality they are nothing but. The Darfur conflict is largely over oil rights. The US supports independence underhandedly because we seek to profit, but we're on the right side: the sudanese govt. is a totally racist regime and has been trying to exterminate minority black groups for years. That's why Obama is of Kenyan ancestry. Actually, his people, the Luo, are Sudanese, but they fled the Sudan.

I thought it was obvious that Germany was not primitive, that was the reason for the humorous comparison (No, really, we stole their nuclear program, the drugs, their weapon tech, submarines, etc. because they were a primitive tribal people who needed to migrate, and so were on their way towards a nuclear submarine... as most nomads will eventually do. Well, that or turn their land into desert, but, you know what I mean.)

yanks aren't as dumb as we look (okay, that's easy) but still, even us unejikated rednek types.)

just curious, daughter, dottir?

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:14 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

sorry, that's what happens when you jump unannounced into a thread.

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Sunday, September 6, 2009 8:27 PM

Quote:

just curious, daughter, dottir?

Funny, I was wondering exactly that my own self.

Icelandic?

Magonsdottir, don't ever apologize for jumping in mid-thread. Everyone who didn't start the thread they're replying to is doing exactly that!

Jump in; the water's fine. Although there may be sharks, and no life guards are on duty. :)

Mike

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Monday, September 7, 2009 2:41 AM

Quote:
Jump in; the water's fine. Although there may be sharks, and no life guards are on duty. :)

Perfect description. Sometimes I envy you guys. I tend to say things too literally. Like now. I can edit wordy posts, you guys can spice up mine ;)

I think there were life guards, but they got eaten.

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Monday, September 7, 2009 3:31 AM