Israel defies US over settlements by GinoBiffaroni

Go settlers! Afterall, they're living outside the law, on a dangerous frontier. Jews you can use ;)

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Monday, September 7, 2009 3:29 PM

So... the two state solution is gone.

Perhaps the Palestinians should just push for full democracy, take over the Knesset and then push for justice.

After all, negotiating is a complete waste of time... particularly with the US as a moderator.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, September 7, 2009 4:28 PM

Gino

I actually suspect this will be the end result:

If Israel lays claim to the whole of Palestine, then they will be an apartheid regime, and it's just a matter of time before they're forced to hold majority rule elections. Palestinian ex-pats will return to vote, and this will lead to a majority. Some Jews will flee, making the situation worse, the resulting vote will create a palestinian ruling majority, but by a slim margin.

I don't think this will create the disaster that S. Africa had. The problem there was no realistic political examination. The ANC was a terrorist organization, and wasn't only allowed, but promoted into power by the west, just as Robert Mugabe was (I know there's a simple answer to this one: The west should stop fucking with Africa) But Re: Palestine, I think that as long as there is some political mainstreaming of the palestinian opposition, we can avoid this repetition.

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Monday, September 7, 2009 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Gino

I actually suspect this will be the end result:

If Israel lays claim to the whole of Palestine, then they will be an apartheid regime, and it's just a matter of time before they're forced to hold majority rule elections. Palestinian ex-pats will return to vote, and this will lead to a majority. Some Jews will flee, making the situation worse, the resulting vote will create a palestinian ruling majority, but by a slim margin.

I don't think this will create the disaster that S. Africa had. The problem there was no realistic political examination. The ANC was a terrorist organization, and wasn't only allowed, but promoted into power by the west, just as Robert Mugabe was (I know there's a simple answer to this one: The west should stop fucking with Africa) But Re: Palestine, I think that as long as there is some political mainstreaming of the palestinian opposition, we can avoid this repetition.

But should it be avoided

Does Israel deserve to exist as a country?

By the means of its origin, by its actions since, by its arrogance, and friggin chosen people attitude by which they attack anyone who dares question them... I am starting to think not

There may be a way to have peace in that region, but it will not happen if one demographic has any significant control over the other, and the more Israel tries to hold its control, the more desperation they will generate. Give someone nothing to lose, you wind up with suicide bombers...

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:44 AM

Gino

I think this is the wrong question.

The problem here is the same as the one of Pirate News saying "jews" by which I don't mean it's anti-semitic, because quite frankly I'm as sick of the whining victim mentality as anyone.

So sure, it's easy to see it as one entity, but really, it's 6 million people, most of whom were invited in. Israel to some extent played on anti-semitism in eastern europe and russia to move recruit jews, and then once there, they encourage west bank settlement among the poor the same way the US did: Homesteading, more or less, though the Israelis used housing developments, but the idea was the same: "Here, you could be living in a nice house rather than a slum, only hitch is, it's in enemy territory, but we'll protect you." Then they use protection of settlements as a justification for invasion.

It's a pretty old trick. But you should split the question in two:

1. Do the jews deserve a place to live? Sure. So did the Irish in Oklahoma. That doesn't mean the Indians and Palestinians didn't also.

2. Do the zionists deserve to rule this land? No, absolutely not. They don't just abuse their enemies, they abuse their own people. As an organization they've been not only complicit to anti-semitism, but turned a blind eye to the holocaust. I have really no sympathy with these guys. (Go back far enough and you see zionists carrying out genocide against Israel)

Then we have to be practical about what's going to happen:

The zionists lobby and manipulate any foreign govt. (before us it was britain) until they get what they want. They're incredibly determined to do something which is ultimately self destructive. I say, let them, just try to lessen the damage.

Consider our own moronic past here in the US: The settlers came, and the govt. in washington DC, named after Washington, a genocide fan himself, was set up on an absurd premise: European settlers could not coexist in a country with an estimated 12 million native americans on it. So, 2 centuries of slaughter ensued, and then a policy of less radical genocide (restriction on land, resources, discouraging birth rate, etc., typical UN charter genocide stuff) and now we have 1 million native americans.

Meanwhile, we have 11 million "illegal aliens" who are *gasp* Mexicans! oh no! But really, a lot of these so called mexicans are guatamalans, salvadorans, etc. who either themselves or their families migrated to mexico for the chance to for a better life, and then to move here. But think about it: this is a population with more indian blood than most american indians. The reality is the US is huge, and there was always enough room for both. The indian wars were completely pointless. When you add the legal latinos there are much more than 12 million people of native american descent.

The Israelis, should they succeed, which they probably will, are going to end up in a worse situation: they'll be completely surrounded by arabs, even inside their own borders. As they use their international ties to draw in more money to finance their new state of greater israel, they will be creating jobs. Eventually the jews won't want the low wage labor necessary to run society, and will cave to importing muslims. The end result is obvious, so obvious that I can't believe it's never occurred to a zionist, but i don't see anything in the plan that discourages this end result.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 5:25 AM

Solution ?

Simple: Quit financing it.

They want our money, the play by OUR rules, otherwise they can damn well do it on their own dime.

Collectively, I see them acting out the role of their own opppressor the same way an abused child grows up and abuses their own children.

Our continued support of it makes me ill, especially given 60-80 years from now, I can very well see the Palestinians oppressing someone else in rabid "self-defense" of a threat that barely exists, and only does BECAUSE of the actions taken in that "defense".

We must break the chain before it strangles us all.

-F

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 5:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well said.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Solution ?

Simple: Quit financing it.

They want our money, the play by OUR rules, otherwise they can damn well do it on their own dime.

Collectively, I see them acting out the role of their own opppressor the same way an abused child grows up and abuses their own children.

Our continued support of it makes me ill, especially given 60-80 years from now, I can very well see the Palestinians oppressing someone else in rabid "self-defense" of a threat that barely exists, and only does BECAUSE of the actions taken in that "defense".

We must break the chain before it strangles us all.

-F

The truely incredible thing is the way Israel is allowed to manipulate the American political system.

They either exert an undue influence during campaigning by use of propaganda on the electorate..

or they cut off someone in office at the knees ( I could go site some examples ) and force them out through manufactured scandal.

Can you cut them off Frem?

I thinking the US doesn't have that power anyone

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:59 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I'm thinking that if we ever got a 3rd party candidate in office...someone with no ties to the "power elite", or money invested in the status quo, someone who also had a set of brass balls and who wasn't afraid of being assassinated....

Yeah, we could cut Israel off.

Leave them to fend for themselves.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:09 AM

Frem

Quote:
Collectively, I see them acting out the role of their own opppressor the same way an abused child grows up and abuses their own children.

Gotta agree with Gino here.

I heard this one all my life, but I don't buy it anymore. I think the zionists are manipulators. Since they tend to live in NY and london, they didn't have a holocaust. All those ukrainian and polish jews did, and germans. But the zionists are acting exactly the same as they did then, and before. You can see zionists acting this way in the 1890s. There's been no real change in behavior here. It's totally predictable, you would have had the exact same result without the holocaust. Just less support for it is all

Also, Yes, stopping the funding would help, but it's not going to happen. The zionists here are going to get to power to fund israel if they have to kill 1/2 the country to do it, and I do mean that literally... Wouldn't be the first time.

Palestinians don't show this pattern, they're submissive to whatever society they move into, even where they're relatively respected. It sorta helps weaken the abused child nation theory.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:39 AM

Quote:
Can you cut them off Frem?

I thinking the US doesn't have that power anyone

Oh I think we could - it'd be ugly though.

First things first, we'd have to get the chop to our own alphabet goons, who are not only fully penetrated, but in cahoots with em on top of it.
Remember, they had a better dragnet than the NSA did, via Comverse and Amdocs.

Way to do that, Church Committee Redux, and we have all the excuses we need what with Sibel Edmonds namin names, and Reyes askin some hard questions about Blackwater and Cheney's involvement.

And so, we do that, put out the admitted stuff for the dog and pony show, hint at much worse stuff that's still classified and use this excuse to put the chop to em, get the media all into it in exchange for complete amnesty for the stuff being held over thier heads right now, they'd jump on it, and it's so indirect by the time things get a rollin, it'd be too late.

Next, have the president make a speech about the failure to hold to the agreement, and suggest divestment and sanctions - then, before anyone can cobble together a real one, FAKE an assassination attempt by some dual-national, preferably someone with a legitimate cover, like previous employment with AIPAC.

Trust me, the PN's of the world will not fail you in their response, and the american people are just about ripe for this to work cause they're annoyed, suspicious, and asking all the right questions - bonus points for sucking in the rightwingnuts of the genuinely anti-semetic stripe, cause it gets em off Obamas back and on his "side".

Have a closed doors cabinet meeting with a "special investigator" Cynthia McKinney bringing highly classified documents as evidence, and let the rumor mill run with THAT ball, an outside bank shot which will put whatever countermeasures the Izzies have in place on the defensive, unsure how much we know.

Then bring in Silvestre Reyes, Sibel Edmonds and Robert Gates - and this is one of the few times I would actually use the National Security/State Secrets classification for an honest, valid purpose...
Start bringining in politicians to testify, Congressman, Governors, Media Moguls... offer one time only ABSOLUTE AMNESTY in exchange for spilling their guts, this would be necessary cause of some of the stuff in question, obviously.

Drugs ? who gave em to you, pedophile ? where'd you get the kids, money ? who forked it over - get NAMES, get EVERYTHING, and let em spill it all, even stuff you suspect is bullshit, and then send em on and seal the file.

Have Gates put Delta on alert - and inform immigration to see who runs for it when the herd is spooked, and where they're going, but simply file it instead of taking action, let em run, but remember who they are.

Anyone who DIDN'T run, have Delta round em up and toss em in one of those handy internment camps KBR built, hell, grayling will do just fine, since we got the full urban pacification kit goin on up there anyways.

Have the Pres come on with a "massive covert operation" and HINT, not say outright, but vaguely and tenously HINT at "other crimes" which they may be responsible for - let the PNs of the world do the rest, neh ?
Gets the ire off us and onto THEM, cake easy.

Back it up with Rahmbo gettin on the telly with a "can not condone, inexcusable" kind of speech with a side order of pain wracked outrage.

Take it to the UN, offer em Israel on a plate in exchange for critical leadership positions, believe me, they'll take it - and then hand the prisoners over to the ICC as a "gesture of good faith" and call for sanctions.
If WE make that call, the whole rest of the world is gonna step in behind us to get their boot in, oh yes - get a fleet out there and cut em off HARD, UN backed up by a special fleet with Lieutenant General Paul K. Van Riper on board as a tactical advisor with a unit of crack marines standby as well so no one gets any funny ideas.

The nations surrounding them will quite HAPPILY blockade them, and so there we are - and at home of course the pitchforks and torches, which not only can be completely plausibly denied, but serve as the stage for the next step.

Get the pres back on the tube and call for "moderation and restraint" as "we must take the moral high ground" and "reducing ourselves is not the answer" and all that merry rot, of course, while additionally signing an act that restricts or forbids trade of war-related material to countries currently under sanction - and watch the Mil-Industry-Complex not only cut them off in an eyeblink, but then sell sell sell!! to the UN at premium rates via our using the hooks they gave us with the leadership positions to open the market for em - and then rah rah rah for the President, which they "really supported the whole time, yeah" and let that one slide with a nod and wink to remembered sins if they get out of line.

Now, while reconstituting our now crumbled alphabet goons to an observation only group attached to the pentagon and answerable to a civilian review board appointed by congress...

Make some holes in the blockade, not TOO obvious, but not subtle enough for it to be an accident... while giving speeches about peace, reconciliation and an end to the bloodshed, etc etc...
And make them ONLY in places the Palestinians can exploit.

You see where this is goin, right ?
Make them utterly dependent on the Palestinians for food, medical supplies, etc.
Them that thinks the Pallies wouldn't help em doesn't understand the situation.

There's been SO MUCH death, SO MUCH blood and suffering, that without a constant provocation to keep the rage and hate going, the Pallies have seen more than they can ever bear, and seeing even their most hated foes in that position, in combination with their cultural traditions and historical succor of the jews going back HUNDREDS of years, they will step to it, if for no other reason than to show the jews they are better people, that there's a better way.
Especially with our hint-heavy "time to come together" and "friends and neighbors" speech, and subtle quiet encouragement to the land border countries to get a little blind and lazy regarding the blockade so long as the shooting doesn't pick up again.

And we go from there, likely the Likudniks will get lynched, but shit that's comin anyways, might as well speed it up and save the needless casualties.

Mil-industry bastards are happy, populations happy, someone to blame, then forgive (especially when pictures of starving Izzies stop poppin up in foreign media, slipped to em on the sly by us) for 9-11, spy network and world domination game put paid to, with US on top, the UN's happy...

Then we have a chat with China and forge the alliance, right ?

Mind you, this is a quick and dirty, top of the head, ten minutes worth plan, here - given time and resources it'd be better, but the general concepts are all in place, and you'll note a minimum of bloodshed, most of it interpersonal, and none whatever of the military stripe.

And yes, it's dirty, devious and underhanded as all hell, but it'd have to be, would it not ?

And SO!!

Who wants to vote for ME in 2012, eh ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 12:59 PM

Frem,

You're hell on wheels, if you'll pardon the pun.

One snag offhand, no way is the media going to play off Israel for amnesty. MSM isn't run by people, it's run by the beast, and the beast is ready to throw any corporate heads to guillotine before it crosses its own path... and if it does cross that line, you gotta look awful close, because sure, *you* can fake an assassination, a case or even a whole war, but so can *they*.

Just because some loudmouthed zionists spill all doesn't mean there aren't evil masterminds deeper down who haven't yet been scene who are just cursing some loyalty oath right now which keeps them from shooting those bastards themselves.

Next problem you have is zionist influence in international finance, and international finance having govts. including or perhaps most of all ours, by the balls.

I like the plan, it's got potential, just pointin' out a couple snags. mebe two minutes thought in this one, but yah, maybe we can get there.

Oh, and I agree about the palestinians: I think that actually the jews would convert to Islam, at which point even I would LMAO. But it *is* what happened to a lot of the crusaders...

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 1:03 PM

DT: when the tiger lets you ride it, slashing it's throat before you jump off is simpler than trying to beard the bastard in his den, innit ?

If they think you're "their man" they'll even put the saddle on for you.

ETA: Besides, you'd be getting them on-board in the first place kneecapping the american alphabet goons, which'd clear the deck for the "art students" and "moving companies" - and by the time the balloon went up, they'd have to go with the flow or get drowned in it - in for a penny, in for a pound, and always side with the winner, you know how they are.

ETA2: Potential snags ALWAYS have a workaround plan in place, remember what I said about comparative thought process and a huge stack of modular standard plans ?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess

-Frem
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have I laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels and dreams,
To set my brother Clarence and the king
In deadly hate the one against the other.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:19 PM

Quote:
If they think you're "their man" they'll even put the saddle on for you.

Yah, I figured this one out for myself. Their MAN, tho, not their BITCH. If you accidentally convince them of that, it's you that'll be wearing the saddle.

Oh, and they don't like it when you shoot at them... worked that one out too...

Quote:
ETA: Besides, you'd be getting them on-board in the first place kneecapping the american alphabet goons, which'd clear the deck for the "art students" and "moving companies" - and by the time the balloon went up, they'd have to go with the flow or get drowned in it - in for a penny, in for a pound, and always side with the winner, you know how they are.

Err. yeah, agreed, but somewhat lost on the slang, not afraid to ask: "art students" and "moving companies"...?

I think that convincing them that something is a liability might motivate them, I like a deception strategy.

Quote:
ETA2: Potential snags ALWAYS have a workaround plan in place, remember what I said about comparative thought process and a huge stack of modular standard plans ?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess

hmm gnawing.. I think there's a major beast here you might've not counted on.

Haven't read rich³

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Wednesday, September 9, 2009 12:47 AM

Google these two terms.
Israeli Art Students
Israeli Moving Companies

It'll be quite informative, as will these.

Comverse Infosys
Amdocs Limited

One of the less grievous but still annoying things I happen to be pissed at their country about is their involvement in the trafficking of MDMA/Ecstasy into the US, up to and including using covert assets and espionage to support it.

Fox News, ironically, did a four part expose on it, and then pulled and buried it when political pressure was applied - but you know, everything goes SOMEWHERE, and the internet goes EVERYWHERE.

I'm not so much concerned with theory and suspicion as I am pissed about shit they *DID* do, and how they managed to pull it off, since if they can exploit those weaknesses in our nations defenses, so too can others, with fouler intent.

That said, their long history of false flag operations and terrorism doesn't do much to ally my concerns about their penetration of our security either, given just how easy it'd be for them to "hold the door open" for someone else's nefarious plan, right ?

-F

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Wednesday, September 9, 2009 5:23 AM

I posted a long satire here about art students after reading the stories, but then my computer crashed, and my post was the only page that didn't load (a conspiracy!) Nice thing about linux, it even saves random stuff you typed into internet forms when it crashes, usually.

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Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow! This is fascinating! People who actually SEE the things going wrong in Israel!!! I was all for setting up an Israeli state for years, and was impressed by their holding their own.

But now we've become such "enablers" that it's pathetic and maddens me. It was a shock to me to discover, via internet friends from other parts of the world, the hatred of America for its unilateral backing of Israel.

But whenever I mentioned this on the other board, I was shouted down unanimously, and other places I discovered few were even aware of this problem.

I'm appalled by the things Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people, and was sickened by Dumbya's support of their aggression.

So suddenly I find the one enclave I've ever run into of people who SEE the problem and want us to stop backing them unquestioningly. Astonishing!

I'm hoping Obama has the balls (tho' he hasn't shown them elsewhere) to at least TRY and make the Israelis toe the line and lessens some of their atrocities and stop their land grab. While I sympathize with them being surrounded by Muslims, they're behaving no better these days. I don't support cutting them off, I support utilizing our financial, etc., backing to bring them in line. If that's possible...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

I hope nobody minds my using color for my posts...I'm not just enjoying it, I'm finding it very useful in locating where I left off in long posts!

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Wednesday, September 9, 2009 12:41 PM

Nik,

I'm surprised there's tolerance for Israel out there. Even my jewish friends don't tolerate it. But this is very much a practical consideration of what *can* be done. Re: my earlier cat eats mouse comment.

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Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:39 AM