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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ponder this.

If we could take back this whole damn war in Iraq, we coulda funded this several times over.

Thing is, ain't the money I am payin so much as what we're GETTING for it, which is jack shit, or stuff to spy on us, toys for the jackboots to fuck us up with, more bombs to piss off folk who are gonna return the favor someday...


-F

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Originally posted by Hero:
My employer gives me good benefits. Cost them about $20,000/year.

If they gave me the choice, I'd take the money. Another $20,000 would be of very good use these days.

Anybody else think that way?

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Originally posted by Hero:
My employer gives me good benefits. Cost them about $20,000/year.

If they gave me the choice, I'd take the money. Another $20,000 would be of very good use these days.

Anybody else think that way?

If you don't have insurance, would you give up 25% of your earnings to get it (even pre tax)?

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Lol

People (who work) pay 40% of their paycheck to taxes these days...

How about 50-60%?

Thats at least what they are expecting to extract from us for this health-care plan.

6 dollars out of every 10, so you can pay to care for the worst of us.

Gotta love socialism.

Rebellion, anyone?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
O2tB

Consider this: There aren't $681 billion in Federal reserve notes in circulation. The US economy is almost entirely fiat ledger balances now.

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Actually, in California, we DO have compulsory auto insurance...you have to show proof of it if even pulled over for a busted tail light. And what about the "safe drivers" who get blindsided by the "unsafe driver" who doesn't have insurance either?

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If the figures were made known, we not only wouldn't be alone, they'd find it higher in some other state, too.

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Oh, I know; we have it here in Texas, too. I have to show my proof of insurance to transfer a car title here - EVEN IF THE CAR IN QUESTION DOESN'T RUN AND CAN'T BE DRIVEN. Yup, I have to insure even "scrap" autos in order to own them free and clear. I play with cars as a hobby, and occasionally I pick up "parts cars" - cars that aren't really restorable, but which still have some good parts I can use or resell - which I then strip out and send the remains to the crusher. As it stands, I have to insure the parts cars before I can crush them. Awesome system.

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Originally posted by AG05:

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Oh, I know; we have it here in Texas, too. I have to show my proof of insurance to transfer a car title here - EVEN IF THE CAR IN QUESTION DOESN'T RUN AND CAN'T BE DRIVEN. Yup, I have to insure even "scrap" autos in order to own them free and clear. I play with cars as a hobby, and occasionally I pick up "parts cars" - cars that aren't really restorable, but which still have some good parts I can use or resell - which I then strip out and send the remains to the crusher. As it stands, I have to insure the parts cars before I can crush them. Awesome system.

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Did not know that. I assume this also applies to non street legal vehicles like off road 4x4's?


Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

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So what happens when you guys secede?

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, Hero...how far would that $20,000 a year go if you got hit with a serious illness (which all of us probably will before we die)? Would it make a DENT in the cost of treatment? Are you telling me you'd put that money away for the day it hits?

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So, "Hero" - where do you stand on auto insurance? Compulsory, or voluntary?

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You know what I did? As wrong as this sounds, I used the system against itself. I put the wrecked carcass in my driveway, and the cops came by and tagged it as a "wrecked/abandoned vehicle" and threatened to tow it away to impound within 48 hours. I called and told them it was indeed wrecked-slash-abandoned, by ME, and that I had no title for the car, but they could feel free to impound it. So they did. Took 'em 8 days to do it, though. And then they impounded it for 90 days and then put it up for auction. I shit you not.

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So, "Hero" - where do you stand on auto insurance? Compulsory, or voluntary?

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Its already voluntary. If you don't drive, you don't need it. Same as a driver's license. Not required unless you choose to operate a motor vehicle.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, instead of making me carry auto insurance, why not just let me have the money? I *promise* I'll bank it in case I ever have a wreck. Really.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
The question seems to revolve around the idea that we should have a "choice" between taking responsibility for ourselves, and not. That you can "choose" to have insurance, or you can "choose" not to. Thing is, that choice really isn't only going to impact YOU.

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So as it stands, YOUR choices (an by this I mean EVERYBODY'S choices, not only yours personally) are impacting MY wallet. Somebody has to pay the hospital for jumping in and helping without knowing if the person involved is going to reimburse them. That "somebody" is society; the city, town, state, or nation comes in and pays. They probably pay less than retail, but they pay the hospital.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I would LOVE you see you hoist on your own petard, Sarge. The sheer malicious glee that I would get from watching you or your family get sick, injured, or old, and then and die or become permanently crippled- would be a source of enjoyment for years. I would enjoy it BEST to see that happen to your loved one, and watch you tear yourself up over it.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
The question seems to revolve around the idea that we should have a "choice" between taking responsibility for ourselves, and not. That you can "choose" to have insurance, or you can "choose" not to. Thing is, that choice really isn't only going to impact YOU.

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We disagree more fundamentally than you realize. The version of "responsibility" you're peddling here is straight off the insurance company brochures, and like any sales pitch, is all about making black look white. Responsibility on the road is making sure you're driving safely and doing everything you can to avoid dangerous situations. What you're recommending is paying for the privilege of being irresponsible.

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I ran up against the illogic of mandated insurance at nineteen years old, and in the twenty-five years since, I've not heard or read one compelling argument for the status quo. In fact, as I've seen the basic concept expanding into other areas - like it is now with health care - I've become even more convinced of its insidious nature. At the core of it is an embracing of the idea that a person is guilty by default, that a statistical risk that you might harm someone else is enough to convict you. That's a really bad precedent.

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I was in the subway a while back. I was struck by the way the trains come whizzing by...

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...with crowds of people milling about only a couple of feet away. I asked my friend if people ever fell onto the tracks and he chuckled sardonically and said, yeah, it happens a fair amount. So, if you're a regular subway rider, and you lose your balance and accidentally push someone onto the tracks, will you be able to pay all their medical bills (if they survive)? Shouldn't you be force to have insurance coverage protecting others from your potential misstep?

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The thing is, the uninsured motorist was as solved problem before the insurance companies started pitching mandatory insurance.

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It was a simple extension you could take out on your policy if you were worried about that sort of. But it was relatively difficult to manage and required that actuaries actually did their jobs. Eventually, the insurance companies figured they could have a lot more consistent income if they could just force everyone to buy their product.

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So as it stands, YOUR choices (and by this I mean EVERYBODY'S choices, not only yours personally) are impacting MY wallet. Somebody has to pay the hospital for jumping in and helping without knowing if the person involved is going to reimburse them. That "somebody" is society; the city, town, state, or nation comes in and pays. They probably pay less than retail, but they pay the hospital.

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That's a problem that's easy to solve without selling us in chains to the insurance companies. I agree that you shouldn't have to pay the medical bills for people who can't afford them. You can if you want to, but you shouldn't be forced to. So don't. That's all that needs to happen.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I would LOVE you see you hoist on your own petard, Sarge. The sheer malicious glee that I would get from watching you or your family get sick, injured, or old, and then and die or become permanently crippled- would be a source of enjoyment for years. I would enjoy it BEST to see that happen to your loved one, and watch you tear yourself up over it.

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That's a really sick thing to say. You may be as much of a mean spirited bitch as some have accused you of. That's too bad.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I'M a mean-spirited bitch? I'm not the one proposing "every man for himself". YOU'RE the one proposing a system, Sarge.

So deal with it. "Take responsibility". For your statements. For your health. For the health of your family. For everything you hold dear. But stop being such a gorram windbag.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
If it SEEMS like a sick and mean thing to say, it's because it is. But that's no different than what you're saying. Maybe you wouldn't WISH it on someone, but regardless, it IS going to happen to someone. And your response, basically, is to say "Tough shit, cold world, things happen, too bad, so sad, walk away and fuck right off; not my problem."

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To a person, the ones I've seen advocating "tough love" on healthcare ("Quit whining, you worthless cripple! Whattaya mean, it hurts? You fell on your damn LEGS, you puke! You can't FEEL your legs, right!?") are the people who've never faced something like leukemia in their child or their spouse. If you can honestly look these people in the eye and tell them, "Hey, too bad we opted for that flat-screen TV instead of the health coverage, huh? Oh well, see you in the next life, and try not to keep us up with all your wheezing and moaning, all right, honey? 'Nighty-night," then you're a much colder and sicker person than you accuse Signy of being.

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Yeah... well it seems like that's where the politics are going these days. Anyone who disagrees with your plan is painted as a cruel monster.

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