Serena Williams- Giant crybaby by SignyM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

lol... it was defiantly a HGM moment (Hot Ghetto Mess)..... just like Kanye West at the VMAs last night... tho Beyonce showed some class afterwards.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 6:05 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I don't even watch tennis, much less play it, but yanno - I accidentally caught one moment that stuck with me forever.

Arthur Ashe walking off on Ilie Nastase back in 1975 cause Nastase was engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct and Ashe was unwilling to share the field with him because of it.

I was just a little kid, and the whole concept of walking away from a fight being the nobler thing to do to, until that day had come across to me as complete bullshit given the guaranteed results even trying to do so in elementary school.

Arthur Ashe made that concept real to me, and I never even knew his *name* till fifteen years later, just the image of him walking AWAY and refusing to feed an ugly situation - that stayed with me.

The man was pure class, hands down.

-F

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Monday, September 14, 2009 6:12 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I don't even watch tennis, much less play it, but yanno - I accidentally caught one moment that stuck with me forever.

Arthur Ashe walking off on Ilie Nastase back in 1975 cause Nastase was engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct and Ashe was unwilling to share the field with him because of it.

I was just a little kid, and the whole concept of walking away from a fight being the nobler thing to do to, until that day had come across to me as complete bullshit given the guaranteed results even trying to do so in elementary school.

Arthur Ashe made that concept real to me, and I never even knew his *name* till fifteen years later, just the image of him walking AWAY and refusing to feed an ugly situation - that stayed with me.

The man was pure class, hands down.

-F

nice story,

we need more examples such as that these days

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Monday, September 14, 2009 6:54 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Arthur Ashe was a fine man and a gentleman until the day he died. He himself was discriminated against, and fought it down with good manners.

Serena aparently admitted, at the press conference, that she might have foot faulted. So she got all over an official for a correct call...

Some of the commentary on SI.com suggests that a referee shouldn't call an infraction at a critical moment in a match. I don't see that-- a violation of the rules is a violation, isn't it? Where do you stop? Should an umpire not call a third strike with 2 out in the 9th inning and the tying run on base?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Before instant replay and a "good" field goal that was outside by three feet destroyed even the pretense of fairness, I did occasionally watch a game of football, although I was never much of a fan.

You know who else struck me as a superior sportsman ?

Randall Cunningham.

This was a guy who worked it, didn't have so much of that "imma QB" crap with him, he'd run it if he had to, and if it came to cases and his team REALLY needed that yard, to heck with sliding or jumpin out of bounds, he was gonna HIT you!

Punter down and out, and it's fourth and long, gimme that thing, WHACK!
(FYI, he holds records for it!)

Got benched, so what, hey look, some kids, let's sign some autographs (coach sent an assistant to fuss at him about it, but randall waved him off) - hell, he stopped his limo more than once and walked in the rain signing autographs and talking to fans.

Johnny Unitas was a great guy too, like EVERYONE in Baltimore knew him, and he worked a real job just like the rest of us.

And yanno, for the life of me I cannot remember who it was, but there was one player who got hisself fined for tossing a game ball to a fan after scoring a touchdown - which I guess you could make a case for it, but really does seem ridiculously petty since it's just a freakin ball, they've got plenty more - should, given how much money is involved...

But what struck me, was the next game he played in, he scores a TD, and there's this split second where he looks at the ball, and then walks up to a fan in a wheelchair, defiantly looks RIGHT AT the camera, then turns and hands that fan the game ball, daring them to fine him for it.

For the player, it's just a ball, but for the fan it's a treasured memory that lasts forever, and I think that's what was going through the boys head when he did that.

Not EVERYONE in sports is as much an asshole as the worst of em, there's some pretty good examples in every sport, and they come from every walk of life - I *hate* figure skating and once the ex-fremgirl was watchin it to torment me when I was trying to repair the cheapass DVD player she bought... but I give you, much as it sucks, Elvis Stojko makes it awesome, seriously.

I think it's a matter of how bad news travels fast on it's own wings, but good news only goes so far as someone's willing to kick it.

-F

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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:08 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Quoted by Wulfie:

lol... it was defiantly a HGM moment (Hot Ghetto Mess)..... just like Kanye West at the VMAs last night... tho Beyonce showed some class afterwards.

"Defiantly"? Granted, she WAS defiant, but I don't think that's the word you're looking for.

And what the hell makes it a "Hot Ghetto Mess", anyway?

You've done it again, Wulfie - you've ASSUMED that someone did something because they were black, and that's as far as you've been willing to think it through.

It was a low moment for Serena, absolutely. But race has nothing to do with her losing her temper.

Here's one thing I can't get past: Was it a bad call? It's conspicuous that nobody seems to want to address that issue. Regardless of whether it was a bad call or not, Serena's responses were unwarranted and very unprofessional, but I'd still like to see some better angles on the serve to see whether there actually WAS a foot fault. And the foot fault in tennis is like the double-dribble or traveling call in basketball - everybody does it, but nobody ever gets called on it. Either call them ALL, or quit calling them for any but the most egregious examples (for example, when a player's foot goes more than halfway across the white baseline.

Serena acted like an ass. By the way, so did Kanye. But I don't assume that they acted "black", or that they acted the way they did BECAUSE they're black. That would be like accusing Jeffrey Dahmer of "acting white" by murdering and eating people, or saying that he went all "Hot Suburb Mess".

Something else that the wife and I were discussing (we watched the whole thing live, in real time): Why is it that Serena's outburst has caused so much controversy? Anyone remember guys like McEnroe, "Nasty" Nastase, and even Jimmy Connors berating officials and getting standing ovations and cheers for doing it? What's changed? What's different? Is it worse when a woman does it than when a man does it?

Just curious.

Oh, and on the Kanye thing: Is this his new schtick now? What the hell? I did like what Pink had to say about him on her blog afterwards: "Kanye West is the biggest piece of shit on the planet."

Hard to disagree with that sentiment - but again, I prefer to base that on his ACTIONS, not his RACE.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:13 AM

Anyone catch Michael Jordan's induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame over the weekend? Talk about small, petty, and vindictive. What an ass that guy has turned out to be, despite his media image as an all-around good guy. And as it turns out, most of the people who knew and played with him aren't even surprised. Most of them said words to the effect of "That's just Michael being Michael..."

He actually flew his old high-school teammate to the event, the guy who his coach put in the starting varsity position instead of MJ - and then he proceeded to blast his freaking high school coach for not starting him instead. "You made a mistake, dude."

Utterly classless behavior. Shameful. And his "thanks" to his family? He told his kids, "It's not easy being you. I wouldn't want to be you." Class act, buddy.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 14, 2009 8:11 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

I'm more of a hockey fan than football

my favorite player, like many was Maurice Richard even though he retired before I started watching hockey

I watched a bio movie a while back and was taken aback a bit

I didn't realize back in the old days, pro hockey players didn't make huge money. In one seen Richard is shown working his shift at the steel mill he worked at since he was 15, then taking off a half hour early because he had a playoff game that night.

He had some run ins with officials, but was quoted saying they had the tougher job, I remember watching a NHL old timers game for charity, where Richard ( I think he was 65 ) said he was too old to play, so he was the referee.

While some of the new players are great, I don't think anyone with the same heart will play again...

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Heya Wulf. Serena isn't the only tennis player with a big shoulder-chip. You shoulda seen Novak Djokovic (Serbian) in some of his less-than-stellar performances. Chest-thumping (Literally. There was something so.... Hitlerian in the gesture. Made my skin crawl!) and dissing other players when he won, withdrawing when it looked like he was gonna lose. Not sure whether it was bad publicity or locker-room feedback, but he straghtened out his act.

And how is Kanye West grabbing the mic any different than Joe (not his real name) Wilson shouting out YOU LIE! during Obama's speech, or right-wingers hijacking townhall meetings, and preventing others from speaking? If that's all ghetto-behavior, there's a whole lot of it going around!!!!!!

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:20 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"If that's all ghetto-behavior, there's a whole lot of it going around!!!!!!"

Yeah. Its like a disease that gets passed around.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So it's not really due to race, izzit?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:28 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sig... never said it was.

Pay attention for chrissake.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Sig... never said it was.

Pay attention for chrissake.

Then why did you refer to her as a "Hot Ghetto Mess"? Your words, not mine.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

And saying Hot Ghetto Mess... which, btw, has its own website...

http://www.hotghettomess.com/

Is SOMEHOW racist?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:55 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

All time favorite hockey player: Ken Dryden.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:57 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ahhh, I see. This thread was mentioned elsewhere as an example of your racism, Wulf, and I understand now. How you could call whatever she did a "hot ghetto mess", mention three black people in one sentence in one post, then say it wasn't about race...bull

and

At least OWN UP to your racism, don't toss it out there to offend others and then deny it! Bah...why bother? You do have some real problems, don't you? S'a shame, sometimes you actually make sense...whta a waste.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 12:01 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I make sense because I've been there.

Its not racism to point out stupid behavior.

I call stupid behavior out from ALL people. But it is only when its from someone who is brown or black that I'm called racist. How is that right?

Isnt the whole point of harmony, the whole point of true understanding, to be able to be able to call out stupidity from EVERYONE, no matter the race?

Or am I wrong? Are black and brown people off limits to the judgment of everyone else?

... and arn't those who say that others are off limits because of their race TRULY the ones who are racist?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 12:08 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nope. Has to do with your terminology, "hot ghetto mess"--which I'm still not sure what you were implying, but "ghetto" has obvious meanings--and the fact that you cited three people, all black, for reference.

Nice try. Doesn't work. Still

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I make sense because I've been there.

As have I. How did I manage to come out of it without automatically thinking that black people are inferior, or assuming the worst about them?

Quote:

Its not racism to point out stupid behavior.

Except when your method of pointing it out is to point and say, "See? Told ya - black people are all that way!" That is the essence of what you're saying, and what you've BEEN saying here for a long time now.

Quote:

I call stupid behavior out from ALL people. But it is only when its from someone who is brown or black that I'm called racist. How is that right?

Maybe it's because when you call it out on those who are brown or black, you point out that it's because of the color of their skin that they're behaving badly, not because they're just an asshole, no matter what color they happen to be. Kanye West is an asshole. Has been for quite a while. But he's not an asshole because he's black, he's an asshole because he can't NOT BE an asshole.

Quote:

Isnt the whole point of harmony, the whole point of true understanding, to be able to be able to call out stupidity from EVERYONE, no matter the race?

Sure. So I guess if it was whiter-than-white Maria Sharapova who was being an asshole, or if it was Taylor Swift who grabbed the mic from Kanye while he was giving his speech, you'd jump right in calling the white people "ghetto" for their remarks? And what is it that you find "ghetto" about it?

Quote:

Or am I wrong? Are black and brown people off limits to the judgment of everyone else?

Well, when you find yourself resorting to words like "ghetto" to describe what you find to be offensive behavior, I'd say you might want to rethink your position. Remember, you were also the guy who claimed that a Harvard professor who stood his ground in his own home was "going all ghetto" - yet you claim to despise the "police state" we're all living in. I guess it's only offensive when it's done to white people like you, huh?

Quote:
... and arn't those who say that others are off limits because of their race TRULY the ones who are racist?

Where did I say anyone was off-limits? Your problem lies in your lack of communication skills. You find yourself fundamentally incapable of calling out someone who isn't white for bad behavior WITHOUT letting their race figure into your view of them. I'm honestly a little bit surprised that you don't just come right out and call them all "N****rs" and let us know how you REALLY feel, because it's obvious to anyone here that that IS how you feel.

What is it that makes you think of Serena or Kanye as "ghetto", if not their skin color?

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 14, 2009 2:06 PM

SIMONWHO

Certainly the immensely classy and unselfish way Beyonce handled the situation shows that to label all black people as only capable of behaving in a unseemly way as such a load of crap.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 2:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, but see... Wulf is blind to that.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Actually, I was the one who first said that the way Beyonce handled it was classy.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

S'true, he did. Although he did say of her, "at least..." I think, as if her behavior was somehow the exception to the rule...that doesn't necessarily say that's what he MEANT, tho'.

Occurred to me last night; why are so many people trying so hard to get Wulf to recognize his racism, when he's obviously blind to it and determined NOT to see it and to misunderstand (deliberately misinterpret?) when people try to explain to him why what he wrote IS racist?

Me, I got more interesting threads to get involved with...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Niki,

Cause I took Mr Holders words to heart.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/18/holder.race.relations/

Don't want to be a "coward".

So how is anything I've said racist? Really?

Cause Im not going to back down in calling out stupidity? Cause I refuse to let the status quo be just that?

Cause I want things to change and the only way for that to happen is to make people recognize that there IS a problem?

"Holder urged Americans of all races to use Black History Month as a time to have a forthright national conversation between blacks and whites to discuss aspects of race which are ignored because they are uncomfortable."

Uncomfortable, huh.....

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 12:32 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"So how is anything I've said racist?"

It's SO much more than racism - you truly are a hate-filled person bent on creating targets for your hate.

One thing I've noticed about you - you never settle on hating particular individuals. No, for you, you have to create whole GROUPS to hate when you are irked.

It's not enough to hate the people who tormented you in school - no, you have to hate blacks as a group. And only individual blacks who work their way out of your category - by for example agreeing with you - fall out of their hated group. It's not enough to hate me - oh no, that would not do, you have to hate my 'ilk'. It's not enough to hate existing groups - no, you have to go back into the past to hate hippies.

BTW - the blacks in your school are not responsible for this. This is your personality - formed by the time you were roughly 6 years old. It was your ever-luvin' family that made you what you are today.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 12:37 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

See what I mean? We've pointed out to you again and again that it's not that you called her to task, but that your remark was "hot ghetto mess", yet you refuse to see that part of it.

I think you're toying with us, personally, trying to get our goats. Which you've managed to do, congrats, for whatever tiny satisfaction it gives you.

The statement has been made quite plainly, I can't imagine you're too stupid to understand it, and what has ANYTHING we've talked about got to do with what Holder said? I agree wholeheartedly with him, and this is an example of people trying to point out that your mentality has an aspect of racism to it. If it's uncomfortable for you to see or admit, THAT's where it's uncomfortable...and only to you, not to any of us.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:57 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So now I'm going to get in trouble because I'm going to point out a sad truth: A lot of blacks are in trouble today, not because they're black but because they've grown up in a ghetto culture. (And Wulf, it's no credit to you that you avoided that fate: You were REJECTED by that culture, it wasn't a decision on your part. You're just as determined by your upbringing as anyone from the 'hood, it's only the particulars that are different. The question is: Can you change? Can you take a path that is DIFFERENT than the one set to you as a victimized honky? )

The best way to figure out "who's at fault" for ghetto culture is to try and change it. Change allows one to see which forces are at work and their relative magnitudes, which phenomena are primary and which are dependent. I'm not, however, of the persuasion that this is all fixable by individual effort if the people involved. If it were, Wulf would not be behaving the way he is today: He would have already changed.

Ghetto

Quote:
A part of a city, not necessarily a slum area, occupied by a minority group. The term was first used for the enforced concentration of Jews into specific residential areas in European cities from the Middle Ages, but has now spread to include other ethnic groups in unofficial ghettos, especially black minorities in the USA. Lifestyles within the ghetto differ distinctly from those of the ‘host’ population and the prejudices of the host confine the sub-group to particular locations. see redlining. Although ghettos are characterized by social disadvantage, most ghettos display a spread of socio-economic groups and the better-off may move to the affluence of the ‘gilded ghetto’.

originally applied to Jews.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:20 PM

DREAMTROVE

This crew? On a space ship? Yah, we'd kill each other. Serena Williams? Steroids. Just like the men. Easy way to win at tennis, serve with a million pounds of force. It's almost impossible to respond to that, the ball doesn't want to unless you're real fast and get exactly the right angle. That's not tennis, it's a firing squad. Anyway, easy way to get this kind of serve: Steroids. That's why major tennis players end up as a**holes. It's also why Anna Kournikova was never in the running. She didn't want to sacrifice her sideline career. But check out the muscle mass difference here:

So sure, some of the game is skill, but like basketball, there's a physical slant. Michael Jordan wasn't the tallest player, but he wasn't short. A 7 footer is in like Flynn.

We watched this whole roid rage thing with the men, IMHO, this is just history repeating itself.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:31 PM

So, Wulfie - I'm still waiting. What was it, specifically, that made you think "ghetto" about THESE particular people? What was it, if NOT their skin color, that made your mind jump to the "ghetto" reference?

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:02 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

No she is not macho, she is a very dignified player

you have confused her with Caster Semenya

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:28 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"So now I'm going to get in trouble because I'm going to point out a sad truth: A lot of blacks are in trouble today, not because they're black but because they've grown up in a ghetto culture."

True.

But the dominant culture has no place for roughly 20% of its people - and not just blacks. No jobs, no opportunity, no access to a better life. There is no modifiable reason to change this. SOMEbody MUST get discriminated against as a way to keep the haves having, and the have-nots not-having.

There are better ways to deal with this: you can pull together, share resources, treat each other well. And there are worse ways: you can have a vicious knife-fight where almost everyone gets hurt but a few get really, really (comparatively) well-off.

But until the dominant culture changes, there is no way to change that one basic fact of existence: a large percentage of people are simply throw-aways.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:57 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"But the dominant culture has no place for roughly 20% of its people - and not just blacks."

True. But part of the reason that there is no place for this 20% is because they represent the worst of us. White trash, ghetto garbage, it all amounts to the same thing. Pure stupidity, viciousness, and being incapable to function in a culture that doesn't value violence and rashness.

I would argue that there IS a place for it tho. Imagaine if we could harness these survival skills, this passion, and put it to good use?

"There are better ways to deal with this: you can pull together, share resources, treat each other well."

Close. Yes, there are better ways to deal with it. Pull together, treat each other well, and TEACH THOSE WHO CANNOT TO DO FOR THEMSELVES.

Give a man a fish for 30 years, and then his son for another 20... and that family will be unable to fish... and will be reliant upon them that gives the fish. In other words, you create slavery. "Do what I want.. Dance you stupid monkey, or you get no fish."

"But until the dominant culture changes, there is no way to change that one basic fact of existence: a large percentage of people are simply throw-aways."

Not everyone can be saved, but SOME CAN BE. However, some are simply evil and worthless. Its a sad fact of life. There are good people, and bad. Ying and Yang.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:11 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This crew? On a space ship? Yah, we'd kill each other. Serena Williams? Steroids. Just like the men.

Roid Rage and steroids - two things I think of when I just look at Serena (sadly). This outburst was not her first one - she pretty well destroyed one of her rackets earlier in the match. That has been done by how many other women in tennis exactly? Not sure what the WTA does for testing - it'll be interesting to use the Google later to find out.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:52 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"True. But part of the reason that there is no place for this 20% is because they represent the worst of us."

Wrong --- yet again. There is no place for them because in our economic system - NOT EVERYONE CAN MAKE IT.

Your thinking is limited by your hatreds.

You hate 'them' so you want to think 'they' deserve what they got. That they are hateful. In fact, they no more deserve their place in the world than a baby in Africa deserves to die of starvation. It is a systematic problem, not an individual one. IF EVERYONE CAN'T ESCAPE, THEN IT IS TRUE NOT ANYONE CAN.

And keep this in mind: this system does not depend on individual luck and pluck. It depends on large numbers of people having to work jobs for their entire lives that don't pay them the value of their work. And that is a situation from which they (that is, nearly all of us who aren't independently wealthy) will never escape.

"Do what I want.. Dance you stupid monkey, or you get no fish."

That IS our economic system - no ? Work, work, work - however many they want to hire, at whatever jobs they make available, for whatever wages they will give you - that's a businessmans' wet dream. Dance you stupid monkey, make me my profit for the rest of your days, or you will get no fish.

"Not everyone can be saved ..."

Everyone COULD be saved. We just have to stop worshiping capitalism and do things differently.

BTW - it's pretty easy to see where your thoughts come from and go to. You hate - and so you must justify that hate. You must demonize those you hate, in fact whole groups of people - futher, nearly everybody. You must do this not only to justify your hate, but to make you feel special. You only feel good about yourself as long as there is someone you can hate.

Who taught you that ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:57 AM

OPPYH

I've always hated Kanye West. He went platinum by sampling(READ:stole) A great song from Daft Punk. Put a few juvenile self indulgent words to the music, and presto...an asshole becomes a multi millionare.

I seem to recall a match that didn't go well for Serena in the past. She lost the game and cited "racist referee". She didn't want to say the other player played a better game than she did. She pulled out the race card. Stupid.
It's actions like this that perpetuate the ugly face of racism. It simply won't die when people of both races behave like morons.

"We run this"
Kanye West

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:02 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"It's actions like this that perpetuate the ugly face of racism."

No - it's vested interests who need an excuse to deny people a place at the economic table. If there were no actual resources on the line - no tangible THINGS at risk in this zero-sum system - no one would care about race, sex, age, accent, religion, sexuality ...

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:05 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"BTW - it's pretty easy to see where your thoughts come from and go to. You hate - and so you must justify that hate. You must demonize those you hate, in fact whole groups of people - futher, nearly everybody. You must do this not only to justify your hate, but to make you feel special. You only feel good about yourself as long as there is someone you can hate.

Who taught you that ? "

I can say the same thing about you, Rue.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:08 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I don't hate anonymous people I have never met and will never meet by category - like you do. I just hate the individuals who have been hateful to me. Like you have.

So, who taught you to dish hate as if it was breathing ? Go way, waaay back - early childhood. Before about the age of 6. Why did you need to hate ? What did it get you ?

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:22 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

No - it's vested interests who need an excuse to deny people a place at the economic table. If there were no actual resources on the line - no tangible THINGS at risk in this zero-sum system - no one would care about race, sex, age, accent, religion, sexuality ...

Wrong. Everyone has a fair opportunity for an education, and career. There is no denial just those who choose to succeed, or to fail.
Hard to state outlandish claims in our present day society.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:24 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If EVERYONE had a PhD - would EVERYONE get a high paid PhD job ? Are there enough of those jobs for EVERYONE ?

Or would you have PhD's competing to work at McDonald's ?

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:33 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I don't hate anonymous people I have never met and will never meet by category - like you do. I just hate the individuals who have been hateful to me. Like you have.

So, who taught you to dish hate as if it was breathing ? Go way, waaay back - early childhood. Before about the age of 6. Why did you need to hate ? What did it get you ?"

How much more anonymous can you get than on the internet? But I digress...

"Dish hate as if it were breathing"? Like you don't hate the men who denied you a job, b/c you think you deserved it? Or the corporations who wouldn't hire you because you didn't fit in?

I don't hate. I'm angry, yes. Rage-filled, truly. But I don't hate.

In fact, I realize how things are, and wish to make them better. Im not bitter.

But you are.

You are bitter towards those you think have wronged you. And honestly, you might have a point.

You are intelligent, I will give you that. But your bitterness has hobbled you. Made you ignore the things you see in front of you that conflict with your anger.

So you have aligned yourself with those you think will best serve the anger you feel. Again, I get it.

But in doing so, you only further fuel and grow your bitterness.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

OPPHY- Can you honestly say there is a survival-paying job available for everyone who wants to work? Obviously not. Unemployment, underemployment, and poverty-wages are an integral part of capitalism. For every 100 people, there are only 50 jobs. And of those, only three will pay reasonably well.

You SHOULD ask yourself the question: When so many people need food, shelter, medical care, education, (renewable) energy, and safety... when the world needs to be replanted, barrier islands rebuilt, soil replenished, and wetlands restored.... why is there unemployment???? When you've answered that question to your satisfaction, come back and we'll discuss whether or not there is ALWAYS a place in the economy for everyone... and, why not.

ETA: I don't give a rat's *ss about "equal opportunity". Opportunity to do what? To grab first what the next fellow needs equally badly?

that shit.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:54 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
A lot of blacks are in trouble today, not because they're black but because they've grown up in a ghetto culture.

The best way to figure out "who's at fault" for ghetto culture is to try and change it. Change allows one to see which forces are at work and their relative magnitudes, which phenomena are primary and which are dependent. I'm not, however, of the persuasion that this is all fixable by individual effort if the people involved.

I completely agree.

Quote:
There are better ways to deal with this: you can pull together, share resources, treat each other well. And there are worse ways: you can have a vicious knife-fight where almost everyone gets hurt but a few get really, really (comparatively) well-off.

I agree, but I think she's got it in "not of the persuasion that this is fixable by individual effort of the people involved." I don't think they can do it on their own.

Quote:
There is no place for them because in our economic system - NOT EVERYONE CAN MAKE IT

speaks to that. As does

Quote:
In fact, they no more deserve their place in the world than a baby in Africa deserves to die of starvation. It is a systematic problem, not an individual one.

Quote:
And keep this in mind: this system does not depend on individual luck and pluck. It depends on large numbers of people having to work jobs for their entire lives that don't pay them the value of their work. And that is a situation from which they (that is, nearly all of us who aren't independently wealthy) will never escape.

I agree. And

Quote:
Everyone has a fair opportunity for an education, and career. There is no denial just those who choose to succeed, or to fail.

You really BELIEVE this?? I find that amazing, in this day and age. It can only be ignorance which claims that everyone has a fair opportunity in America today, especially in the ghetto. You truly believe "opportunity" is equally available to all, and that's all it takes? Wow.

Wulf, I can accept that you're angry but don't hate. But I would propose that a lot of what you say applies to you, as well.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:59 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Wulf, I can accept that you're angry but don't hate. But I would propose that a lot of what you say applies to you, as well."

Yes, and?

My anger doesn't cloud my judgment as so many here, and as so many here have claimed against me.

Rather it fuels me, drives me, forces me to work for change. REAL change.

The kind that sets men free, that doesn't tie them back down to tyranny and slavery.

"I would rather die fighting, than live on my knees."

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:06 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Like you don't hate the men who denied you a job, b/c you think you deserved it? Or the corporations who wouldn't hire you because you didn't fit in?"

Actually - I don't. Find my anything that indicates I hate them. Anywhere. I dare you.

"Im not bitter. But you are."

You only want to think so. So, point out to me where I am bitter. Where have I BLAMED anyone for my life - as you have ? I have merely pointed out the FACTS using my life and experience as an example - bias exists. Do you have a problem with the truth ?

"So you have aligned yourself with those you think will best serve the anger you feel."

And you have no answer to my objective question - would every PhD have a good PhD job ? Or are good jobs limited to a few, while the many will never get out ?

As for who I've 'aligned' myself with, I would say it is the culture of Caral. But that is an idea far beyond you. Besides which, you would have to READ my posts instead of just ASSuming you know what I mean. And I suspect that is beyond you as well.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:06 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
My anger doesn't cloud my judgment as so many here, and as so many here have claimed against me. Rather it fuels me, drives me, forces me to work for change. REAL change.

And this is where the crystal ball gets kinda hazy.... I see someone manning the barricades... gun in hand... the smoke of battle drifing behind him... I hear a muffled cry, it might be FREEDOM or CHANGE or HOPE something.... but then... fades to gray.

I have't the foggiest notion what you think your so-called "real" change would look like (as opposed to unreal change?). Or "freedom", for that matter. You get all worked up over fine-sounding words... sound-tracks ... snippets of movies... but do you have any inkling of what you MEAN when you say freedom, change or whatever? 'Cause the only image I get is one of Wulf with a gun, getting revenge on society, shooting it into a shape that is comfortable for him.

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:10 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Rue, I honored you by giving you the respect that you may be intelligent.

And THIS, THIS, is you answer?

You wish to insult me, with your simpering talk of what is "beyond me"?

Maybe I have learned a lesson here today. To never give honor to those who will use it against you.

To never throw "pearls among swine".

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:13 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wulf - you posted a lot of mean and untrue things about me - things which you wouldn't have posted if you had just READ MY POSTS. Things which you could find no specific example for. Bitter ? Hate-filled ? Aligned with - I dunno - 'them' - in order to increase my rage ? Or whatever. Don't you remember ? And I'm supposed to be grateful to you ?

Are you that ... you fill in the blank, m'kay ?

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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:14 AM