Stupidity Wins! Yea! by Geezer

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Stupidity Wins! Yea!

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Sunday, September 20, 2009 13:16
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Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:52 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

I was half–listening to a discussion of economics on NPR the other day, and they mentioned in passing the stock exchanges in China. Exchanges? Yes. Plural. I looked them up. Aside from the Hong Kong exchange, which China inherited, there’s been one in Shanghai since 1990 (1). There’s also a new one in Shenzhen which opened this year, in the face of the global economic downturn, and is planned as China’s version of NASDAQ (2). There’s an exchange in Russia of course, and even one in Vietnam (3). In all these countries - all either currently or previously aligned (supposedly) with Socialist or Communist economic theory - entrepreneurs are looking for people who’ll pour investment money into their enterprises in hopes of gaining a financial return. Looking to become Capitalists. Looking to me like the economic Cold War is over, and Capitalism won.

Go out and Google for countries with economies which are either Socialist or Communist. Go to the library and research the same question. For Socialist economies you find a few; generally with the caveat that, aside from transportation and extractive industries, they’re reducing public ownership and control and divesting themselves of any nationalized business they do have. As for Communist economies, you always find them described in the past tense. There is not an industrialized country on the planet today that does not have a mostly or completely Capitalist economy. Pretty much anywhere that doesn’t have a predominately Capitalist economy is still in the barter stage. There are small examples of regional or local communes and such, but they are remarkable more for their rarity than for their success in attracting imitators.

There are many European democracies which have large Social Welfare components to their governmental and social programs. However, they get the money to pay for those programs, not from businesses the state owns, but by taxing the country’s Capitalists and their employees. There are countries such as China and Vietnam which have almost dictatorial control over their populations, but which still allow Capitalism to thrive – in fact encourage it – so they can get their cut. In Russia, the same oligarchs who made their bundle under the Soviet system now make it by becoming Capitalists. Capitalism is a tool which can be used for good or bad ends, depending on who wields it.

So what’s a dedicated anti-Capitalist to do? Capitalism isn’t fading away - in fact it’s getting more ubiquitous every day, due to decisions by governments and individuals wanting to invest in a system that works for them. During the economic downturn there was no great demand by any ex-Socialist government to go back to their earlier economic system – they were too busy going out looking for capital to pump up their private sector. There are really no examples of other functioning national-level economic systems to point to. There’s no wonderful new economic theory out on the horizon that any national government is likely to convert to. The people who are happy to be small “c” communists with other like-minded folks have developed their own businesses or communities and opted out of the argument. You’re stuck with Capitalism being the predominant economic system for the foreseeable future.

So what to do? Maybe you could look at the other half of the problems you see. You have a problem with Capitalists selling arms to dictators? Do something about stopping anyone from selling arms to dictators. You have a problem with Capitalists and labor relations? Get on someone to regulate labor relations – or support unions. You have a problem with Capitalists and distribution of wealth? Try promoting more EU-type Social Welfare paid for by increasing taxes on the Capitalists and their employees. You don’t like the Corporatism that results from Capitalists and Government being in bed together? You’ll have more luck changing the government than getting rid of the Capitalists. You’re not very likely to get rid of the Capitalists in any of these cases, so why not try attacking the other end of the issue? Or, buy a share of stock, go to the shareholders meeting, and raise hell.

I expect that none of you here will be content to take this advice, but I’ve realized that the world-wide pre-eminence of the Capitalist economic system pretty much oblivates the need for arguing about it any more. Thus I leave you to gnash your teeth and curse in impotent rage. Responding to any of your “But how about the ancient MumboJumbo culture?” or “You Capitalist lackey…” posts would be moot, since the victory is clear, so I won’t bother. Have fun playing the dozens and circle-jerking.

Bye, Y’all.

(1) http://www.sse.com.cn/sseportal/en_us/ps/about/bi.shtml
(2) http://www.newsweek.com/id/195699?from=rss
(3) http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/abacus-stocks-Vietnam-stock-exchang
e.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:24 PM

DREAMTROVE

Um, for a proponent of capitalism and all, I have to say, you're just picking up on the SSX? Did you miss the whole insanity in 93-94? I loved the part where it turned out that companies in shanghai were just making up earnings ;) Sorry, I was working for a broker at the time, and this was fairly entertaining. Shenzhen has been capitalist since the '70s.

Communism failed as an economic system, but capitalism is becoming communism. There's an 80% overlap between CEOs and party officials in the chinese govt, and the same thing is starting to happen here as well. I'm not sure what this says, but it's a questionable victory. I'd have agreed, it would be nice to see something decisive, but you never will. There have been a lot of threads about Sparta, the prototype communist state, as ref'd in the Soviet Constitution.

This ideological battle will never end. The problem with Commies in China is the total control they hold over everything. In the US, it's becoming the banks who have total control.

The free state still eludes us

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Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:35 PM

MANGOLO

We live in a world of Privatized Profit, Socialized Debt.

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Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Mangolo:
We live in a world of Privatized Profit, Socialized Debt.

But as long as we at least CALL it "capitalism", then America remains Numero Uno!

[/snark]

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Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:54 PM

CHRISISALL

Geezer will never understand this, guys.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, September 18, 2009 3:50 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

You forgot to mention the option of pushing for better regulation of capitalism, Geezer. Now people have found another reason to renounce it.

Heads should roll

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Friday, September 18, 2009 3:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Fixed the title for ya, Geezer.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 4:56 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So what to do? Maybe you could look at the other half of the problems you see. You have a problem with Capitalists selling arms to dictators? Do something about stopping anyone from selling arms to dictators. You have a problem with Capitalists and labor relations? Get on someone to regulate labor relations – or support unions. You have a problem with Capitalists and distribution of wealth? Try promoting more EU-type Social Welfare paid for by increasing taxes on the Capitalists and their employees. You don’t like the Corporatism that results from Capitalists and Government being in bed together? You’ll have more luck changing the government than getting rid of the Capitalists. You’re not very likely to get rid of the Capitalists in any of these cases, so why not try attacking the other end of the issue? Or, buy a share of stock, go to the shareholders meeting, and raise hell.

Well said, total agreement. People want to lobby to replace something and start over instead of fixing what's in place. In the end they just find more new problems that people will eventually, guess what? They'll want to replace and start over. Capitalism does work, but like any system it can be corrupted. The tools are available to rein it in if people are willing to use them - great examples listed above.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Friday, September 18, 2009 4:59 AM

PIRATECAT

All goverments should run like the MickeyDeez Corporation. Old Ronald makes a buck just as much in bad times as in good. No waste. Except that dash to the can after a Big Mac.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Friday, September 18, 2009 5:59 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
You forgot to mention the option of pushing for better regulation of capitalism, Geezer. Now people have found another reason to renounce it.

Heads should roll

One Year after Lehman
It's Business as Usual Again for Wall Street's Casino Capitalists

By SPIEGEL Staff

One year after the bankruptcy of US investment bank Lehman Brothers, governments are divided over what lessons should be learned from the crisis. But the more the economy recovers, the less desire there is to implement radical reforms -- and many bankers have already returned to their old casino capitalism ways.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,649430,00.html

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, September 18, 2009 11:45 AM

MANGOLO

Totally agree GinoBiffaroni

Most folks that take the market seriously (myself included) have had one of their best years EVER.

Seriously, ever. For me, it was my best year period. Up well over 250% in 9 month. I'm not a stock broker- don't even have any training in business, but it didn't make sense to me that a company with billions of dollars of cash should be going down the tubes. It had to be only hype. Hype driven by the people who knew it was only hype. Just like the hype that drove me to sell four months earlier- the everything is rosy hype. The "analysts" were yelling "buy, buy, buy". Even though the reality was that nothing was changing much in the way of production, exports, etc. So I sold when the TV was yelling BUY.

I looked at the numbers in November and December when everybody was yelling Doomsday scenarios. It didn't add up to me. So, some banks were going down. The assets still existed. Somebody would buy them. The TV was yelling SELL, so I bought. I bought carefully, but bought with every free dime I had and have made oodles.

In the past, I used this knowledge of the corruption of the system to solely try to expose it to the people around me. Nobody would believe me. So, now I make money with that knowledge. This allows me to fund scholarships and internships, as well as finish putting together my self-sufficiency (growing all my food for my family, raising fish, solar and hydro power, etc)

I still lobby my Federal reps for change- I think day trading is the worse culprit of the hype driven market and should be taxed even extra on top of short term capital gains, but you know who has more sway with the Feds.

I don't think you can call what is going on capitalism. It is more like the shady part of Vegas with the odds all rigged.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 11:49 AM

MANGOLO

BTW: From the Boston Globe

Why capitalism fails
The man who saw the meltdown coming had another troubling insight: it will happen again

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/09/13/why_capita
lism_fails/

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:00 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8264774.stm

Sarkozy to press for 'Tobin Tax'
French President Nicolas Sarkozy gives a speech on 18 September 2009
Nicolas Sarkozy will try to rally G20 leaders behind the idea of a Tobin Tax

French President Nicolas Sarkozy will urge fellow G20 leaders to introduce a special tax to reduce risky behaviour by banks, the BBC has learned.

Mr Sarkozy wants a levy known as a Tobin Tax to be applied to every financial transaction.

The move is aimed at cutting excessively speculative trades and encouraging long-term decision-making.

But senior EU officials told the BBC that the chances of getting a global agreement were "less than minimal".

The proposal does not yet have the formal backing of the EU or Germany - France's largest trading partner - and according to the BBC's business reporter Joe Lynam, it is widely expected to face resistance from Britain and the US, home to the world's largest financial centres.

The BBC has also learnt that the issue of bankers' pay, especially bonuses, will also be on the agenda at the G20 meeting in Pittsburgh, the US, next weekend.

There will be no suggestion of capping individual bonuses, our correspondent says, but it is likely that overall bonuses as a proportion of a company's earnings could be restricted.

There may also be a possibility of payment deferral and the option of clawing payments back should decisions by bankers prove to have been excessively risky or erroneous.

Old idea resurrected

The Tobin Tax is named after the US economist James Tobin, who first suggested it in the 1970s.

Gordon Brown, 18 September
Gordon Brown has voiced doubts about a common levy

While it was originally supposed to be used for aid for developing countries, it could now be used to fund some of the bailouts in the financial industry or the multi-billion dollar stimulus packages under way to kick-start economies around the world.

The idea was resurrected in August this year by Lord Adair Turner, the chairman of Britain's financial watchdog, the FSA, as a way of providing buffers against another economic slowdown.

"Such taxes have long been the dream of development economists and those who care about climate change - a nice sensible revenue source for funding global public goods," Lord Turner told Prospect magazine.

According to our correspondent, the notion of a Tobin Tax is likely to be referred by the G20 to the Financial Stability Forum - the club of the world's top central bankers and financial regulators - to assess and translate into a workable set of rules to which all countries might be able to agree.

But its proponents face a tough battle.

Speaking in Brussels last Thursday, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown voiced doubts about whether a worldwide tax was practical.

"If one or two countries refuse to adopt a common levy or action or taxation, then it makes it very difficult to implement," he said.

"If flows are under supervision in one set of countries, but not under supervision in other countries, then it makes it easy for people to avoid the action that even is agreed by most of the countries in the world."

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:25 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mangolo

Good observation about socialized debt and private profit. Time to be in the private sector ;)

Mangolo

Just a word of humility: Never mistake luck for market genius. I've had many years like that, hell, months, weeks, even days like that. But it's a matter of timing. My uncle invested right before the bailout was announced and was completely wiped out (a fool for risking so much.) But a reason I never go short: Potential loss exceeds investment. Never a good situation. If your stocks are up 500% and you are unable to close, ouch. They come for the dog, and leave you with the cat ;)

Edit: This is not a criticism. I worked for a broker for 10 years as a stock analyst. I made them a fortune. It was the bull market of the 90s. They thought I was a genius. I thought I was a genius. I was getting $50/hr for it, which was amounting to squat as it was part time (brokers keep hours so light they don't even stay the whole market day, a lot quit at noon and skip friday altogether, now that computers can execute the stop losses) Anyway, so I branched out and tried it on my own. Bad timing. I bought stem cells as soon as they derivation was discovered. I knew the science well, and I knew this was *big*. I then bought again when Obama said he was repealing the ban. I waited as the stocks went down, every week Obama making some statement about "in a couple days" usually twice a week. I think it took him 6 weeks, and I had a serious loss. It should have been a no brainer investment on an Obama victory. Then he didn't do it. That is to say, he repealed the ban on a Friday, and by the time the market opened the following week, he had already reinstated the ban, stronger than it was before. It was a rider on his $400 billion bailout, which was bailout #3, for Obama (he proposed and passed the Bush bailout as a Senator, Bush was going to let it slide after losing the election) Don't mean to ride Obama on this one, but just recalling that, never trust a politician.

These sorts of logical investments don't always pan out is what I'm saying. There was no serious way of predicting when those bailouts would come, whether they would pass, and the same with stem cells. It was a dumb fucking move on my part, even though by every logical angle I should have been right.

Good market timing is tricky, and is usually done far from earnings, very far from news, and very, very far from politics.

But, just to mention this one, because we're all idiots for not doing it: When Obama fought with the Secret Service for the right to keep his Blackberry, any moron could have responded by buying Research in Motion, just as we could have bought Halliburton when Cheney snuck them through their first no bid contract. Funny looking at HAL going into election day though.

But this is a dangerous game. Politics in an unknown. Good timing deals only in knowns. You may very well be good, but congrats for being lucky, jes as long as ya know the difference.

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 5:38 PM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Just a word of humility: Never mistake luck for market genius.

Luck is 80% of life. 10% intelligence. 10% perseverance.

I was also, lucky to get out of most of my real estate in 2004. Sold my big farm land for 800% what I paid for it only 5 years earlier. The land prices shot when both Oprah and Trump said our island was the most undervalued real estate in all of America.

BTW A little personal background. Back when I was a coder and math nut, I wrote programs for some brokerage firms. I worked with some of the early computer modeling (1983) used for forecasting trends. So, there's my 10%.

Seriously, if I look back on my life luck has played such a large part I can never discount it.

But thanks for the reality check. Peace.

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:02 PM

DREAMTROVE

I worked with that same stuff, metastock, telescan. I was always going to code my own, still might some day. I know I have market skills that i can put to use, but I'm only a genius in a bull market, and I think this bear is not dead yet. I guess it will be heralded by the media declaring "It's the end! The stock market will never have relevance again! All of these shares will never see a dime when every company goes bankrupt! Death to America!"

Luck has been fickle with me. Something terrible happens, and then I survive by some incredible fluke. I've made several decisions that saved my life that were objectively viewed as blind stupidity, and I'm not sure they're wrong, except that I'm still here.

Right now I'm looking at real estate as a buy. I'm independently destitute as I always say, but I've done well with my red paper clip. I've been living off the same $20 bill for 5 years now, just buying low, selling high, but breaking even on stocks, making money on other things. I have around 12 grand at the moment. I live on a different economic planet from everyone else. Or perhaps just a different century. Life is very very different when you never take on debt.

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:23 PM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Life is very very different when you never take on debt.

I think that is one of the key lessons. I learned it because I had no choice. Being self-employed when I was younger, no bank wanted to ever lend me money. My family of four lived in a 600 sq ft place even when I was making six figures. I had to wait to buy my first house with cash.

If only our country would learn this lesson.

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:54 PM

DREAMTROVE

It was my grandfathers golden rule: always pay cash. But I landed in a similar situation due to a computer glitch. My credit rating is 0.00, had been since my 18th birthday, and apparently nothing I can do can change that, which is okay, since I never have any intention of borrowing any money.

I grew up in a castle, it's stone, and has 48 rooms. The dining room could probably fit your house. It had secret passages and turrets and everything. Except for heat. It was very very cold ;) I miss it, even though I live next door. It was swindled from my parents when I was growing up. A piece of revenge I fully intend.

At the moment I'm looking at properties as if they were rare books. Tomatoes are impossible to grow right now because of the blight. I thought I had outsmarted it, but it's everywhere. The spores have laced every inch of soil. I have one plant left, and it's not one from this year. It's from last year. A two year old 6 foot tall tomato tree.

Anyway, I buy and sell rare kids books, and I'm looking to take advantage of the depression to pick up some property. I'm looking online, I might try tax auctions directly. I've never made 6 figures, or a figure with a 6 in it, or 6th grade. This computer was $100 in parts, though I made another one for $20, I'm stealing someone else's wifi right now. Ah, bless those big broadcasting routers. I'm in the middle of nowhere, and I can pick up four wifi networks. We don't have cellphone coverage, though a neighbor of mine has an iphone, he rigged it to skype through random wifi.

So, in my world, a car is worth a couple hundred, a house, a couple thousand. A govt. apparently costs 5 trillion a year and then owes 80 trillion but seems to get precious little done. Not sure how that works ;)

Actually, another thing I never do: Don't subscribe to anything. Monthly fees are hidden vampires.

Part of my frustration with the medical community right now is that I can't get them to understand medicine. That's another hitch. Being poor means not being able to go to medical school, but there's an internet, and I now know a lot more than they do about much of this stuff, and aargh.

Anyway, now I live in a little house, my living room is larger than 600 sq feet. I don't want to pay the heat in the winter though, so it makes sense to get a second home somewhere that's warm. I'd rather spend the 3-4 grand on a second house than just hand it to the electric company. It's really most of the money I spend in a year. Which reminds me, I should cancel the telephone, it's obsolete. The only nice thing about it is it still works when the power goes out. I'd like to solarize, and I looked into that, but it's out of my range.

I want to look into forclosure sales and tax sales. Might be a good investment, too.

In the coming economy there will be a few sources of wealth:

1. People who live on debt. They have credit cards, student loans, and live on it until they realize that they're screwed

2. People who live on public assistance. These are a subset of the next group.

3. Govt. and govt. contractors, this money is just printed to devalue the currency, here's where the vast majority of money will come from.

4. The super rich who ripped everyone off and now have 100s of billions of dollars only to find that there's nothing you can buy with that except for Paraguay.

5. Foreign investors. Some of them used to be americans, and then they bought Paraguay, but others are former soviets who bought Moldova instead.

Anyway, I figure any scheme has to make money from these sources since I don't see corporations having earnings, making products, hiring workers, people having jobs, etc. which might be a good thing since it was a fairly pointless society anyway.

Edited to add: Graph is deceptive. If you find the total debt in 2009 dollars, you'll find it was pretty much zero up until FDR, jumped to 2 trillion, then stayed level for a long time, some crawl under reagan bush, and then acceleration under clinton up to 3 or 4 trillion, then Bush jumps it right up to 8 trillion and now were at 11.3 headed for about 14 years end I hear.

Clinton did stave off some budget problems by selling off national assets, gold reserves, military bases, ports, etc. Bush tried to do the same thing but failed to pull it off.

In general, I find that presidents don't have a direct effect on the economy, but they can have an indirect effect. What really kills the economy is war.

"War is good for the economy" is the most moronic thing I've ever heard. You pour your productivity, resources and capital into something you are going to blow up to kill people who might otherwise produce productivity. Only the arms merchant makes money off of war, and it's minuscule compared to what the war costs those who fight it. The US didn't fight WWI for very long, so it didn't kill the economy, but we got into WWII early, and rolled right from there into the cold war, Korea, and Vietname. (Eisenhower, Ford and Carter had no wars, so that effects it somewhat.) Reagan had proxy wars, like the Iran Iraq war, but also local kleptocracy, which continued after him. This war is obviously helping to sink this economy, and the kleptocracy is out of control.

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 8:09 PM

MANGOLO

So many good points. I have to do a ton of med research and see alternative medicine people to get my HMO doctor to take a second look at me (I had some sort of flu- everyone says it is the "swine flu" except the tests come back negative) About two weeks ago I was on the floor and then in the emergency room. Heart decided not to do its job right - I'm no athlete, but I'm in good shape and eat way healthy and this flu lays me out flat and the doctors have not one idea why. For this we pay $1000/month! I'm feeling a lot better today, but the reason why you've seen me on these boards is I couldn't move without almost passing out. Modern medicine? Hello?

Your assessment of the current economic situation is pretty close to what I see...'cept with the added shadow of Carter. The rich made off like bandits as you pointed out and like during Carter they are sitting on it. I'm not saying Obama isn't part of the 'same party with two heads' thang, but he definitely isn't their man. When they get their man or their Palin in there I can guaran-damn-tee you that VC capital will open up and the rich will start putting their money into all parts of our country especially buying up the public trust (both figuratively and literally).

I think you are painting the economic situation on the very grim side (maybe I'm misinterpreting the tone?) It seems to me that it isn't pretty, but isn't dire. As the dollar devalues our export economy grows and our trade gap shrinks. We are headed for poverty, but not the kind that 80% of the world's population experiences. I've lived in those places, built houses in villages in Mexico where there isn't running water...dude, we're falling and failing, but I doubt we're going to be giving up the sound of interior plumbing.

I totally concur on the war, but I also don't see that ending or even down sizing anytime soon...even though it was a campaign 'promise'.

Quote:
"I'd rather spend the 3-4 grand on a second house than just hand it to the electric company."

One of the main reasons I moved to Hawaii. Year round growing season. No heat nor cooling needed in our house. A cold night is 60F. A hot day is 88F. Plenty of water from the sky (we have our own catchment) Enough sun to power our other needs. Starting to raise tilapia next month. Already have our chickens giving us 10 eggs a day. No where on Earth is paradise. Every place has its challenges, but staying warm in winter isn't one of the ones we have here.

Peace.

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:37 AM

DREAMTROVE

Sorry to head that, feel better.
I can't get any help from our medical system, and I think it will only get worse with change. Everything always does

My world is very dark, but I'm seldom wrong. Obama isn't their man, but he might be their bitch.. Here's a few examples:

Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke.
Sec. of the Treasury Tim Geitner.
Chief Economic advisor Larry WTF Summers.

This is the crack(head) economic team that is going to solve our crisis?!?

Obama said on the campaign trail he was going to bring in Buffett and Bloomberg and some nobel laureates. Instead, he brought in the crooks who cooked up this plan in the first place, and still *hasn't* repealed the loose rules which caused the disaster.

I suspect something made him change his mind.

Oh, look, the genius behind this administration:

Wherever you go, there you're stuck

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 10:06 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Mangolo,

I'm sorry to hear you were ill. You might have had a viral heart inflamation. The common flu can do that. It would cause your heart to not be able to match its output to simple things like standing up.

"It seems to me that it isn't pretty, but isn't dire."

And yet ... we ARE being softened up for years of double-digit unemployment. So, if you look around at a random 10 adults, at least one of them will be unemployed. And of those who DO lose their jobs, they will remain unemployed for months (average length of unemployment is now at 20 weeks). Those who find new jobs will likely not recover their previous level of earning.

On top of that, unemployment will put pressure on the wages of those who are still working. It already has - now, of employed households, 6 in 10 are living paycheck to paycheck, up from 4 in 10 just a few months ago.

We may not end up in life-threatening poverty like many third-world countries. But we will have no middle class left, and everyone will be ground down, scrambling just to keep from going under.

***************************************************************

Let's hear it for capitalism !

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:11 PM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Mangolo,

I'm sorry to hear you were ill. You might have had a viral heart inflamation. The common flu can do that. It would cause your heart to not be able to match its output to simple things like standing up.

"It seems to me that it isn't pretty, but isn't dire."

And yet ... we ARE being softened up for years of double-digit unemployment. So, if you look around at a random 10 adults, at least one of them will be unemployed.

Mahalo for you concern and suggestion. I'm seeing a cardiologist on Tuesday and a Rheumatologist on Thursday.

As far as double digital unemployment. Here in East Hawaii we've had double digital unemployment for as long as I can remember. If you take out Hilo (our main town), the unemployment has been sitting around 14% for almost 15 years.

I know this is new for many parts of the country, but not here.

That's why I turned down many opportunities to have my film produced overseas (I had offers of millions of dollars of co-production financing I had to turn down) and have scraped by- just to keep the production local. Out sourcing is killing our economy.

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:15 PM

DREAMTROVE

Also, check cholesterol levels. And some medications can cause serotonin syndrome. Ironically, serotonin supplements can't. But some kiddie zombie drug that schools give out I looked up recently did, it was whatever was recommended for ODD, it interrupted the serotonin transport. Serotonin trapped in the blood can damage heart valves. All of these things should be checked out be a cardiologist. Also, as always, become your own doctor. If you don't understand the science, rewind until you do. Might take you ten years as a hobby to go from no science to cariospecialist, but if you have a heart condition it's time well spent.

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh - BTW DT,

I hope whatever it is that ails you is getting better as well.

Peace

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Silence is consent.

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I know this is new for many parts of the country, but not here."

Having come from the rust belt --- I have a passing acquaintance with what that is like. But it ain't pretty. Everyone where I came from had a siege mentality. You had to scramble for every opportunity. Even if you already had two jobs, if one more came your way you fit it in - b/c who knows when that might happen again. And you pinched your pennies. And you participated in the underground economy.

I had two degrees, a few certificates and licenses, and experience, but I was still scrambling. I can't recall a time when I ever worked less than three jobs. I don't know what other people less fortunate than I were doing to manage.

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Silence is consent.

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:31 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Me, too:

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Sunday, September 20, 2009 1:16 PM

DREAMTROVE

Kathy, thanks. They rescheduled me for february. I thought this happened only in the USSR.

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