Gaddafi on Israel by GinoBiffaroni

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Gaddafi on Israel

POSTED BY: GINOBIFFARONI
UPDATED: Sunday, November 22, 2009 08:55
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Saturday, September 26, 2009 11:38 PM

" Everyone is calling for a two-state solution [but] they don't understand the demographics of the region. Israel would be reduced to 14km and Israel will not accept this," Gaddafi said.

"There is no way to have these two states so close, because they are already integrated. Two million Palestinians live in Israel, Gaza is isolated … torn apart and isolated. Israel should get rid of their nuclear weapons - the Muslim countries will not recognise Israel as long as they have nuclear weapons - and these problems would be done," he added.

"I don't believe that Barack Obama [the US president] really understands the problem," he said.

"He was a senator; he used to worry about the state that he represents and the American people. So he doesn't understand it deeply enough. Maybe in the future he might."

The Libyan leader also said the current Arab approach to resolving the 60-year Arab-Israeli conflict and creating a Palestinian state would not yield positive results.

"There is no way to have two states in that piece of territory."

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/09/200992512369102319.html

It is funny that I had the exact same conversation here not too long ago, and we came to the same conclusion.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 12:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So if not 2 states, then what is the solution?

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 5:51 AM

DREAMTROVE

Qadaffi has always supported one state of Palestine. So does Ahmadinejad and a number of other muslim leaders. I think that people take this idea for more than it is: They think this is the only way palestinians will get fair treatment, a palestinian state would get invaded by Israel. I don't think anyone is calling for removal or oppression of jews, no heads of state at least.

There's definitely a fair amount of opinion out there that this is a valuable local wedge issue, and that no one actually wants a solution, because they can continue to use the wedge issue to garner support.

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:23 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So if not 2 states, then what is the solution?

a single state democracy. where Palestinians can be treated as equals.

The government in Israel would need to be changed completely, the people in power now would be incompatible with the freedoms I'm talking about.

Something would also have to be done compensationwise for stolen land ( and I think the UN and members should also pay here ), and the right to return of those who were driven out would have to be guaranteed. Perhaps a five year freeze on immigration, until things settle down.

Given a choice, some hope, and a pile of money to improve their condition... in time I think peace could be achieved. But only if those on both sides who find it in their interests to use fear, paranoia and conflict to achieve their control can be dealt with. ( Arab, Palestinian, Israeli, and American )

The time frame involved might be a generation, but it would be less bloody and less destabilizing than what we have now... and at least an end would be in sight, compared to the forever conflict we see now... that would be an improvement.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, how bout we stop financially holding up (with aid money) and logistically backing (with equipment) Israels abuses and see if they stop, first.

We cut off their ABILITY to do that crap, not only is there at least some chance they'll back off on it, we'd actually stop looking like complete monsters to the very folk we need to convince in order to help quell the violence and sort that mess.

And if in retaliation for decades of abuse, the rest of the world decides compeuppance is in order, well, shit happens - *I* don't think it would be a good idea, since I can damn well see the Palestinians doin the same shit to someone ELSE in 60-80 years if we don't break the chains...

But when a country, a nation, and most of it's people have acted in a fashion so vile, how the hell can someone expect a great deal of sympathy for them - I mean, I DO have some, especially for the politically powerless, the refuseniks, and the folks at the sharp end paying the price for policies they never made or agreed with...

But if the end result wound up with the current administration of Israel being ripped limb from limb or swingin from a rope while pissed off citzens used em as a pinata, don't think I'd be shedding one bitter tear over it.

-F

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:44 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well, how bout we stop financially holding up (with aid money) and logistically backing (with equipment) Israels abuses and see if they stop, first.

We cut off their ABILITY to do that crap, not only is there at least some chance they'll back off on it, we'd actually stop looking like complete monsters to the very folk we need to convince in order to help quell the violence and sort that mess.

And if in retaliation for decades of abuse, the rest of the world decides compeuppance is in order, well, shit happens - *I* don't think it would be a good idea, since I can damn well see the Palestinians doin the same shit to someone ELSE in 60-80 years if we don't break the chains...

But when a country, a nation, and most of it's people have acted in a fashion so vile, how the hell can someone expect a great deal of sympathy for them - I mean, I DO have some, especially for the politically powerless, the refuseniks, and the folks at the sharp end paying the price for policies they never made or agreed with...

But if the end result wound up with the current administration of Israel being ripped limb from limb or swingin from a rope while pissed off citzens used em as a pinata, don't think I'd be shedding one bitter tear over it.

-F

Well, look at it this way... by enabling this shit for so long, as well as being one of its initiators does not the United States and its citizens also deserve some "compeuppance" as well. While your leaders made the choices, your democracy made those leaders and gave them the power to back up these actions.

There has to be a way to break the chains without revenge or extending the conflict longer than it already has.

Another thing Gaddafi talked about was the way the UN is a power monopoly, and how the security council uses its veto, way too often solely to promote or protect its own interests without regard for the greater good.

Maybe that should be the start,... lose the veto power, or limit it somehow, or allow a vote of the general assembly to override it.

Then perhaps we can see a UN which can reign in debacles like Iraq before they start, or be more productive in finding solutions to problems like Israel, or Korea.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 2:21 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

U.S. taxdollars at work

Israel is doomed. The Palestinians will win by sheer numbers.

Hence Israel's policy of genocide in Gaza.

In 10 years there will be no Israel. Period. Good riddance! (and no USA)

Quote:

FBI will pay you $1-million to arrest American Jewish ADL AllCIAduh spokesman Adam Gadahn Perlman

"The FBI added Adam Gadahn to the Most Wanted Terrorist list and the U.S. State Department is offering a reward up to $1 million for his arrest. A 28-year-old California man has been indicted on federal charges of treason and providing material support to a terrorist group for making a series of propaganda videotapes for al Qaeda, including one in which he praised the hijackers involved in the 9/11 attacks. 'Adam Gadahn represents a new breed of home-grown extremist, who has chosen to betray the country of his birth,' FBI Executive Assistant Director Willie Hulon said during a press conference Wednesday in Washington, D.C."
-FBI Most Wanted
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/oct2006/gadahn101106.htm

American al Qaeda member Adam Gadahn Perlman acknowledges Jewish ancestry
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/13/american.qaeda.message/index
.html

"In Sept of last year, Adam Gadahn [aka Adam Perlman], the son of Jewish parents, the son of Jewish grandparents [who are on the board of directors of Jewish ADL] in Southern California, who himself converted to Islam, went on to become Osama Bin Laden's spokesman."
-Congresswoman Jane Harman (D-CA), Jewish chairman
Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment
CSPAN, Use of the Internet by Terrorists: Using the Web as a Weapon for 9/11 Truth, November 6, 2007
http://www.piratenews.org/flight93.html

Jew Rep Jane Harman Caught on NSA Tape Agreeing to Lobby for Israel Spies = TREASON
www.alternet.org/blogs/rights/137494/ bombshell%3A_rep._jane_harman_caught_on_tape_agreeing_to_lobby_for_alleged_aipac_israel_spies/
www.republicbroadcasting.org/?p=1364
youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

"By way of deception, we shall wage war."
-Mossad motto

"Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
-Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, to Jonathan Pollard (convicted traitor and spy in USA) upon exiting Pollard's jail cell

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

Frakkin Juice
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=40131

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
www.khazaria.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim.html

www.JewsAgainstZionism.com

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 2:32 PM

DREAMTROVE

I like the one state solution because it would force compromise. An independent palestine would be ruled by the same sort of religious extremists that rule israel.

I don't think they would kill each other. I think they kill each other now because they have separate armies.

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Sunday, September 27, 2009 5:50 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I like the one state solution because it would force compromise. An independent palestine would be ruled by the same sort of religious extremists that rule israel.

I don't think they would kill each other. I think they kill each other now because they have separate armies.

don't kid yourself... it would be bloody and problematic for the first few years.

something like Palestine in the 30's and 40's

jew factions attacks Palestinians, Palestinians push back, etc, etc

it would take impartial policing ( likely by a third party ) to keep things from getting too hot. A traditional UN peacekeeping mission ( like back in the cypress days, before it was messed up by TPTB ) could work.

The plus side is if the standard of living for everyone was improving, and problems had a mechanism that dealt with them peacefully... things would eventually calm down and we could see an end to this problem for good.

Then the goal would be to promote political reform in Egypt and Saudi Arabia for example, mind you without US arms and support that might just take care of itself.

Winning the war on terror by doing less

LMAO

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:55 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

The strange, dark truths of Moammar Gadhafi

I dread UN week. I can barely face it anymore.

Endless hours of self-important, flatulent, self-congratulatory orations, all delivered in front of that ugly, green marble backdrop.

Hell for a TV reporter: Ugly visuals, boring audio. And so it was again this week, mostly.

But when Libyan Leader Moammar Gadhafi — self-styled "dean of the Arab rulers, king of kings of Africa and the imam of Muslims" — made his way to the the podium, I sat up straight.

I just can't help admiring the guy's performances. I know he's been a vicious, dangerous SOB, whose agents have tortured, terrorized and slaughtered civilians.
Liyban Leader Moammar Gadhafi at the UN in September 2009. (Richard Drew/Associated Press)Liyban Leader Moammar Gadhafi at the UN in September 2009. (Richard Drew/Associated Press)

But then, as Gadhafi would say — as he did again this week — so have the Americans. Go ahead and argue with that.
Elvis is in the house

In all of his 40 years as Libya's president, Gadhafi has never addressed the UN. Most of the time, he's a recluse, living in a tent somewhere, dreaming up projects such as a Libyan-designed rocket car and a staggeringly expensive effort to roll back the Sahara desert.

So, clearly, he was pent up by the time he started talking this week. He went 90 minutes with a speech that was instantly declared a "diatribe" and "delusional rambling" by the herds of independent thinkers on U.S. cable networks.

Granted, some of it was pretty weird. Ruminations about JFK's assassin, about the swine flu as a military weapon and how the Taliban are a peaceful bunch. And so on.

But there was much that was serious, aimed at the Third World, which Gadhafi regards as his constituency.

Those portions should inspire at least some serious debate, and likely would have, had they not been delivered by a guy who drags his tent around the world and sometimes shows up at meetings in gold Elvis-style sunglasses, smoking cigars.
Political feudalism

First, he went after the Security Council, or, as Gadhafi called it, the "political feudalism" of the UN. He takes particular issue with the five permanent members, each of which has the power to veto the collective wishes of the rest of the world.

His point is not really arguable: These are five countries — the U.S., Britain, France, China and Russia — that effectively enjoy immunity from UN sanction or condemnation, simply because they can veto any such move.

They can accuse others of war crimes without ever having to worry about facing a similar charge themselves.

In his address, Gadhafi made the unrealistic, but to many people extremely appealing, suggestion that the Security Council should be a tool of the general membership, rather than the other way around.

Looking out at the General Assembly, Gadhafi mocked the sea of serious faces looking back at him.

"We are just décor," he said. "You are like Hyde Park. I mean, without any real substance, like the speakers of the Hyde Park corner. No more, no less. You make a speech and disappear."

Nervous laughter.
On a roll

He then turned his attention to the International Criminal Court, which is empowered by the UN to pursue and try national leaders for crimes against humanity (at least those national leaders who don't have Security Council vetoes or friends with vetoes).

"Yes," said Gadhafi, "Make it easy for (Sudanese President Omar) Bashir to be tried or (former Liberian president) Charles Taylor to be tried. Or (former Panamanian leader Manuel) Noriega. That is an easy job to be done."

(For the record, Noriega was grabbed by American forces in 1989, brought to the U.S. and imprisoned. Nothing to do with the ICC, and Noriega was never in the the same fiendish bracket as Taylor or Bashir. But Gadhafi was on a roll.)

"We want to take this file and we want to [charge] those who have committed the general mass murder against the Iraqi people."

By this he meant the people in Washington who ordered an invasion and bombing campaign six years ago, one that killed untold thousands of innocents, based on what turned out to be a false pretence, the fictitious weapons of mass destruction. You could hear crickets this time. Not even any nervous laughter.
A nose for hypocrisy

Now, granted, this was all coming from the man whose agents were found responsible for bombing a disco in Berlin and an airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland.

I'm not saying Gadhafi isn't a hypocrite. What I'm saying is that he is, in fact, such a hypocrite that he's developed an exquisite talent for identifying and exposing it elsewhere.

On nuclear non-proliferation, which he now applauds: "Do you [the UN inspectors] inspect the nuclear supplies of all? Do you supervise the increase of this nuclear storage?"

On the unwelcome flood of illegal African emigration to Europe: "Let [Africans] have the wealth that was looted and taken from us." Africa deserves trillions of dollars in compensation, he argued.

"If you don't give us this amount, the Africans will go to where you have taken these trillions. They have the right."

And to those American conservatives who constantly rag and complain about the cost and trouble and ineffectiveness of the UN, Gadhafi proposed a solution: Move it somewhere else.

It must be a terrorist target anyway, he declared, citing the extreme security of a UN week and the difficulties some foreign leaders have in obtaining the necessary U.S. visas for their support staff to travel with them to New York. (He himself had a retinue of more than 130.)

"I want to relieve America from the hardship. We want to relieve America from this worry. Now, after 50 years, it should be taken to another part of the hemisphere." Maybe Delhi, he suggested. Or Beijing.
Not many Arab friends either

Gadhafi might look eccentric, but this he knows: The one thing that would anger American conservatives even more than their usual complaints would be for the UN to pick another country as its headquarters.

But Americans shouldn't take his needling personally.

He drives other Arab leaders crazy, too, and that's how I came to appreciate him, after covering Arab League meetings from which Gadhafi regularly stormed out, usually after voicing a few choice truths.

"We hate each other, we wish ill of each other and our intelligence services conspire against each other," he told his Arab brothers last year. "We are our own enemy."

In 2005, he called the Palestinians "stupid," for failing to embrace the one-state-for-two-peoples solution that he promotes.

Other serious people have made the same suggestion, but Gadhafi wants to call it "Israstine," which he has to know won't fly with anyone. (He floated the notion again this week.)

He acknowledges the Holocaust, something almost every other Arab leader avoids or negates. But he always observes that it was carried out by Christians, while at least some Muslim states offered Jews sanctuary. He used that line this week, too.

This is an Arab leader whose speeches are often cut off by Arab networks, which know the sort of embarrassment he's capable of inflicting.

As when he calls other Arab leaders "tools" for striking self-interested deals with the West.

I remember him at one Arab League meeting, I think in Jordan, several years ago. He denounced the proceedings as ridiculous, as usual, and went out into the country to sit with the Bedouins.

It made him a bit of a hero on Jordanian streets, at least for the day.

Too bad he cancelled the Newfoundland trip. I'd have liked to see him try that sort of stunt there.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Sometimes you just have to laugh.

Q-man is a kook, true, but he's a SMART kook, which makes him quite dangerous when he wants to be.

The sheer ignomity of world leaders being handed a "Not so different" speech by HIM, and having some of it STICK, man, that's gotta hurt.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent

Of course, then there's Chavez and company, who have their own variation of this speech.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourApprovalFillsMeWithSham
e

I love the latter, cause it's just pure irony overload.

Fact of it is, Q-man MOCKED them, right to their faces, and in a way that burned them to the core cause no one could deny he had cause, at least for some of it.

In a better world, that'd cause them to wince, think deeply and see to their own conduct to correct it - but in this day and age, we'll prolly react by drumming up an excuse to bomb his country some more, meh.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 8:55 AM

PARTICIPANT

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So if not 2 states, then what is the solution?

Pirate news would have you believe the atomic test site conspiracy

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