REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

So, how does that student debt taste ?

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Friday, October 9, 2009 07:54
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VIEWED: 1055
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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I am gettin more and more folk with degrees posting resumes, which considering what we pay for residential security work kinda saddens me, since that expensive as all hell "education" is supposed to be the answer, innit ?
*dripping sarcasm*

I mean, that's always the answer, more education, more debt, bigger sheepskins, right ?
I mean, it magically makes jobs appear or something.
*snark*

No, what it DOES, is make you too much of a hassle and too expensive to hire, and ensures your ass winds up slaving away down at the quickie mart just to keep up with the debt, is what it does.

All for a piece of paper of very debateable value that's little more than a join the club invite card.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/92/votlucka/votlucka1.html
http://www.indystar.com/article/20090927/BUSINESS/909270386/Jobless%2B
recent%2Bcollege%2Bgrads%2Bworry%2Babout%2Btheir%2Bloans


One of the applicants actually avoided any mention of his degree in his resume/application - a bit silly this, since a security company isn't gonna find out ?

I may just hire him, but he's gonna get a reprimand and extended probationary period for that one if I do.

Damn sad day when a computer science major is walking a watchman round, but a man has to eat, I guess.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:25 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


HI-larious.

I put in my time all over the East Coast.

Even did time at Princeton.

I can say this... that piece of paper gets you in the door, the rest is up to you.

And truth be told...if you have a lot of experience... well, that piece of paper you paid so much for... is worth fuck-all.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:50 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Skools dont teach how to own your own business, they train workers for factories (that don't exist anymore).

A diploma is nothing but a receipt of $100,000 invoice (debt).


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Thursday, October 8, 2009 12:19 PM

STORYMARK


So what is your point here? People should be less educated?

Great plan....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 12:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Skools dont teach how to own your own business, they train workers for factories (that don't exist anymore).



Apparently, you went to the wrong classes. And you really sucked at them, because you can't seem to correctly spell "school".

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 2:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Storymark ?

Apprenticeships, Trade schools, more emphasis on WHAT you know, and how well you can apply it, than how much you paid for it.

That, and you could cheat, too - this link does ME little good since imma dyscalc, but what the hell it's free.

Same education, no sheepskin - and you'll see where I am goin with that.
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm
We've come to the sillyness of valuing the paper more than the learning.

That, and outsourcing oughta come with heavy tariffs on the company what does it - you wanna be an american business, hire americans, elsewise you're just a foreign company operating here and should be subject to the same rules as any other.
Do you HEAR ME, Billy Ford ? *hissss*

-F

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:46 PM

DREAMTROVE


Huh, Frem, an almost united response

Story, I never found my lack of an "education" to be a problem. I think this is pretty on the money, but I'll add one if the intermittent net will let me:

Yes, they train slaves, and make slaves through debt, but they also indoctrinate people into a narrow mindset with a religious belief in the power of the state and the evils of chaos.

At least that frees people from the hard task of thinking...

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:59 PM

MANGOLO


My son is going to college, but I did have a sit down with him and ask him if he wanted to learn a trade - a dozer driver makes $125/hr if he owns the dozer. The dozer costs less than a college education. $100k goes a long way to starting a business.

On the other hand:

I loved my college experience and it took a long time (9 years for 2 BAs and 1 MA) because I worked and paid as I went, but it hasn't helped me get in the door. The unions here don't really like to hear about your college degree. It is actually a strike against you - "You asking for work as a Gaffer, but you really want to direct!"

So I built my own door. Late night rant....sorry. back to Big Bang Theory.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 7:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA


(WHOOP WHOOP, RANT ALERT, RANT ALERT)

Oh man, I just HAVE to savage this article - given how fulla shit it is.

CIOs complain college grads aren't ready for IT work
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/342347/Crossing_the_Skills_Gap?
taxonomyId=0&pageNumber=1


Firstoff, WTF does a CIO know about the real world - only time they even see it is through the window of their limo from their cushy gated community to the fucking boardroom table - hell, to be honest most of em are AFRAID of the real world, and even more so of us Morlocks, something the ex loved to exploit by introducing her S/O (that bein me) to these berks, reminding them there are not-very-nice people in the world who don't work on the same little social rules that keep employees from wringing your damn fool neck, but I digress...
Quote:

Not exactly, CIOs say. More often than not, there are significant gaps between what even the smartest and most tech-savvy graduates learned in school and what CIOs need from new members of their IT staffs.

Now this I can buy, college is a slightly different environment, but it really *IS* a failure of the curriculum when they do not provide the advertised service, is it not ?

Should you not be entitled to a discount or refund if the provided service doesn't match the offer, and should that be intentional, shouldn't they be liable for fraud ?

I am aware of a case where some lady is suing to get her tuition back, but it's not really clear cut enough in that one to use as an example here.
Quote:

What's more is that most companies have neither the time nor the money for on-the-job training. They'd prefer that universities incorporate more training for real-world IT roles into their curricula so that graduates are ready to start contributing their first day on the job.

Then THEY can bloody well pay for it, or apply pressure to the universities, instead of blaming the consumers of a product they have little to no control over the quality of, duh!
Quote:

"The problem is that universities don't train people to take jobs," says Michael Gabriel, CIO at Home Box Office in New York. "If they were better prepared to hit the ground running, they would be a more effective and lower-cost resource that could compete with offshore talent. They wouldn't hit potential constraints imposed by the time and effort required to get them to be productive."

I call bullshit, what the offshore-outsourcing crowd has as an advantage is a lack of fuckin overhead, like paying taxes, like having massive student debt, and all the other expenses an american employee MUST cover, and thus be paid enough to cover, in order to work for you.
Quote:

Most of the college graduates that Cindy Warkentin talks to have what she considers "unrealistic expectations." "I had one young man tell me that unless I could offer him $75,000 or above, he's not interested. That's way above what's normal for a trainee," says the CIO at Maryland Automobile Insurance Fund in Annapolis.

And now imma be MEAN - look corpies, you want that education, you DEMAND that sheepskin, then you can damned well pay enough to help finance the fuckin thing, NOBODY with an ounce of sense is gonna put themselves up to $115,000.00 USD in debt for a pissant job workin helpdesk that makes $30,000.00 a year - they got student loans, car and medical insurance, rent/mortgage, and oh yeah, as Mal says, a powerful need to EAT sometime that month.
No one is gonna slave away for you while sinking further and further into debt, they're GOING to GO SOMEWHERE ELSE - and the attitude behind this rooks me a lot, it has ever since I was a kid and jobs that *required* a car and telephone didn't pay enough to cover insurance and gas, much less the phone bill, and thus you were LOSING MONEY trying to work - folks, that's asinine.
Quote:

Warkentin says recent grads also seem to think that they'll be able to approach work the same way they approached their studies when they were in school.

A full-time job "is a 9-to-5 commitment, and that really does seem to throw them a bit," she says. "They have a sense that they should be accorded opportunities at work to take long breaks, like the time in between classes."


Oh put away the shovel, bitch - what Warkentin REALLY means is that you better be willing to put in NINETY fuckin hours on that forty hour "salary" they pay you in order to avoid payin overtime, and if you don't like it, well, tough shit cause ALL the corps are in cahoots about that the same way all banks are in cahoots on loan terms, they know damn well you can't shop around cause the deal is gonna be just as exploitive anywhere you go - heaven knows I've fucking watched this in the automotive industry supply and logistics chain, and seen it destroy people and their relationships.
Quote:

As for IT skills, Warkentin gives university curricula high marks. "From a technical standpoint, the book learning and the experiences that technology students have is fairly sound. I don't see any huge gaps," she says. "But the university doesn't teach them what it's like to be in the workaday world."

Ah, so we need a course on chicanery, backstabbing, office politics, conflict of interest and how to hide the illegal behavior your company engages in from the regulators ?
Why not just come right out and SAY it, it's not like everyone doesn't know.
Quote:

"Yes, they're missing business experience, but they can't get that from a textbook," says Temares, who is CIO and dean emeritus of the university's school of engineering in Coral Gables, Fla. The best way students can get that experience is for companies to hire them as interns sometime after their sophomore year. But internship opportunities are down, Temares says. "The reason I hear is that companies don't have the people to train the interns. A lot of companies have cut summer internships, but it's a stupid place to cut. If you hire interns upfront, you get the best people in the long run," he says.

You know what, fuck internship - most of it is unpaid, and you know what non-volunteer unpaid work is ? Slavery.
Apprenticeship, there ya go, but again, there it is, who's gonna pay the COST of that damned education if the employee can't afford to pay the loans on the wages you offer ?
Quote:

To effectively bridge that skills gap, businesses and universities must form partnerships that bolster the currency of IT education and prepare IT graduates with the "right" business and technology skills, says Ravi Nath, an IT professor and director of the Creighton University College of Business. "Without such university-industry dialogue and partnerships, the disconnect between what industry wants and what graduates offer will remain."

There's also the lies, let's not forget the polite little lies about what the corporate world pretends to be, and what it really IS.
Quote:

Nath says these long-term internship opportunities are a win-win both for the employer and the student. Interns get IT work experience, and the businesses get an opportunity to assess the skills and dispositions of the interns as full-time employees.

My ass, it's win-win for the university and the employer, the Uni can cut back on actually doing anything and the employer gets free labor - the student doesn't even get a reach around cause when time comes and they want MONEY for their work, the corp simply dumps them and gets another intern, HELLLOOO, McFlyyyy ?!
Quote:

As a global real-estate brokerage and consulting firm, Cushman & Wakefield Inc. does business around the world. CIO Craig Cuyar needs and expects IT professionals to be aware of and knowledgeable about cultural differences.

That doesn't necessarily mean that staffers must have experience living or working in a foreign country, he says. "Not everyone can travel, but since we live and work in a global economy, we should expect undergraduate programs to prepare students with a fundamental understanding of the cultural differences, historical perspectives and common business practices employed by all the major countries within it."

Ideally, Cuyar says, "there should be a course in global business practices and cultures. At the very least, there should be a few classes taught on this subject.


And why would there be, when they just outsource it to that country cheaper than hiring someone with such a large overheard to cover ?
Quote:

Rare is the new college hire who lacks skills involving Facebook, texting or any other form of electronic communication. But face to face, many of these same people have difficulty reading interpersonal signals and communicating, especially in the increasingly multigenerational workplace, says Warkentin. "Most of the gaps I see are on the social, soft skills side," she says.

Translated, this means they don't bend the knee, shut up, bend over and take it like a man - they get UPSET when you call them in the middle of an aniversary dinner and expect them to drop everything to come runnin so they can cover your screwup, they get ANNOYED when those eighty hour workweeks destroy their relationship, they get TOUCHY when their bills go unpaid and they start financially sinking due to the pathetic wages and actually bitch about it, oh noes, the horror, martha, the horror...
Quote:

"The older generation tends to be more structured. They tend to have the expectation that anyone coming into the company will have the exact same experience that they did when they started their career," she says. "They expect a great respect for authority and a willingness to do as they're told." In contrast, "young people expect to receive respect for bringing new ideas."

More of the same, sorry, but young folk these days aren't as stupid as you'd like, they're less likely to be your bitch, and more likely to realize that you are not payin them enough to survive on - don't like it ?
Then either pay a real wage or find someone else.
Quote:

"What I've seen is that people coming in don't have the necessary skills or understand the fundamentals required to build relationships with senior people," adds Cuyar. "A newly minted college grad is not going to be able to forge relationships with senior people via Facebook or LinkedIn."

Forge relationships, heh, that's a new one - given the chicanery and office politics, asskissing, ladder climbing and other bullshit the current crowd engages in, which I have personally seen result in bloodshed at least twice, I'd have to say not building THOSE kind of relationships is an advantage.
Besides which, clinging to business models that don't work just because that's the way you've done it for fifteen years is a sure ticket to bankrupcy and bailout, not that this ever touches CIO/CEOs, but damn sure the employees suffer and as such they're usually the first to NOTICE when your company is sliding into the shitter - and if you don't LISTEN, which they don't, then they follow the wise example of the rats when a ship starts to sink.
Quote:

To CIOs, it seems as though college grads don't get any advice about how to match their talents and interests with specific IT jobs.

Of course not, since if they specialize too deeply, and that whole fucking field has been completely outsourced, they're totally screwed, aren't they ?
Not ONE ounce of thought has been given this whole article to the fact that these nameless, faceless "employees" are actually human beings, who come with a large financial overhead in great part due to the education you've demanded of them, and actually (shock-horror) DO THINGS OTHER THAN WORK FOR YOU, like have relationships, hobbies, interests - but no, no place for that in your little world, no time neither, work work work die, and make sure to sink your kids ass-up in debt so they can do the same, and fuck you as a human being!

This whole article reeks of exactly why the corporate world DESERVES exactly what it's going to get, the same way the French royalty got it, and probably as halfassed and screwed up when it does happen.

Of course, we have our own answer to the abuses of the corporate world, problem is, we can't fight the corpies with the entire US Armed Forces and the whole bloody Gov backing them up against us "little people" and if we COULD, then what'd be the point of not takin over ?

And yes, most "unions" these days are little more than exploitive corpies themselves, so you get fucked over twice - but I tellya folks, were it not for the corps ability to call on the whole goddamn gov and it's military...

The odds would be a LOT more even in your favor.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, October 9, 2009 7:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Not just Dozers, Mangolo - I can drive any forklift ever made, and happen to be damned good at it, having been trained to grab, stack, pack & rack even bad airdrops scattered over four acres, up in trees, sideways in the mud, you name it - once during a hideous howling thunderstorm too.

A good forkie driver makes a decent pence too, specially if they own the thing, sure.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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