How about this? by Wulfenstar

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Frem, sometimes I've agreed with you about Wulf being picked on, but in this case: not so much. For one thing, he posts threads over and over and over which say the same basic thing: "Revolt! Take up arms!" I don't know how you expect people to react to his threads, but when we do try to debate, he mostly spews venom or runs away, and usually the former.

I assume this was directed in part at me. I said I thought the original post was "revolting" and agreed with Rue, who made nothing but rational arguments against it. When a picture was put up, I commented on it. Got called an assclown for diverting from the topic, even tho' Wulf had done so repeatedly with things of absolutely NO reference to the topic at hand.

Wulf then proceeded to post a long, pathetically manly-man tirade about how big his dick is, which also has absolutely nothing to do with what *I* posted, as carrying around a rack like I'd talked about is a completely pathetic comparison, and added "I make a good, important post... and you devolve it into a titty thread? WTF? Dont be mad if I respond in kind."

This totally ignores that HE had devolved his "good, important post" (which in my opinion it certainly was NOT) into songs, etc., and calls my one remark a "titty thread".

Are you even capable of seeing all that? I never once called him a name or made any disparaging remarks about HIM, only about the topic, and I got personal snarks back. THAT is Wulf...that is what we usually get from him. Disagreement brings personal attacks, nasty generalizations, obscenities and viciousness. Not always, but far more than 50% of the time.

To talk about sabre rattling and lobbing grenades HERE is amusing, since it happens in so many threads, and is more often than not Wulf lobbing them at others, maybe more than one "other", but he's right in there, snarking "manfully". Educating, finding common ground, is a WASTE, Frem...no matter what we discuss, how reasonably we try to debate, he comes back with THE SAME BULLSHIT the next time he posts a thread.

How about some reality here? Education, debate, reasonableness only work IF THE OTHER PERSON IS LISTENING. You keep saying we shouldn't pick on Wulf but should be fair to him...how about being fair to the people who try to talk to him, get disgusted sometimes, and those who've been here long enough to recognize the futility and not even try?? I'll talk reasonably to him when he talks reasonably--but most of the time, he doesn't. He rants about the same things in virtually every thread...eventually it gets tiresome and anyone with sense stops trying.

I think you believe it's possible to get through to Wulf...and yes, sometimes he's even capable of debating. I think what you're missing is that, even when there's been a reasonble debate, the very next time he posts a thread, he comes back with exactly the same stuff all over again. That you can't see it is a shame, because you keep coming down on those of us who can. I keep trying, but when he starts a thread with bullshit, I'll say so. I'm not about to waste my time trying to "educate" someone who never gets it and only wants to hurl invectives.

ETA: By the time I posted this, numerous other things have come up. I'll answer the relative one: Property tax. I already get that you resent ANY tax, Wulf, but you're quite happy to make use of all the things those taxes pay for. That's really all I have to say, because to enumerate all the things property taxes pay for would be a waste of my time: you have a blindness--"All taxes are wrong!", so why bother? If you can't imagine all the things taxes pay for, either others can enumerate them for you or it's just a waste of time to try anyway.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:39 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Niki... this isn't about YOU.

Jesus.

ETA: Im really starting to think I need another persona here. At least then, you will listen to what I say without all the "baggage".

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yep, sure is; Frem addressed it to nobody in particular, but since I'd been involved in the most recent discussion, it was no doubt aimed at me as well as other.

She didn't bother to hassle you about your idiotic "I'm so big" post; as usual, she cuts you more slack than the rest of us, so I pointed out some realities.

Thing is, Wulf; it's not all about YOU, tho' you make it that way; you take ownership for the thread but not for your own devolution of it, you say you made an "important point" and we're assclowns for diverging although you did so earlier and far more than anyone else, you take everything anyone says personally, and you hurl slings and arrows at everyone and anyone quite happily. It's not all about YOU, buster.

Jesus.

As to your ETA: YOU are the one who, over time, has caused all the "baggage". We're all responsible for our own baggage, Wulf; clean yours up, you'll be treated differently. Keep doing what you do, and you carry the baggage ("responsibility") for how you are treated. You just gave a prime example, especially in how you responded to my post. NOBODY asked YOU to feel sorry for the woman with the over-abundant rack, but by gawd, you came right back in as if I had and followed up with your own absurd, ridiculous "manhood" tripe.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:48 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yay.

More garbage about me... but not about the point of the thread.

Woo-fucking-hoo.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
More garbage about me... but not about the point of the thread

Hysterical. YOU started the thread--YOU bumped it twice when it didn't get the attention you wanted, YOU kept putting up videos, saying you could do it all day and all night, then YOU complain at what people post to your "important thread"?

That's okay, eventually you'll let it go. The topic of the thread HAS been replied to--and as far as I'm concerned, Rue said all that needed saying a long time back. Others posted their responses. The original quote is absurd in so many ways it's pathetic; you've not offered anything except "starve the government" and "fuck the Republicans/Democrats"--you HAVE no suggestions, you just want attention. It IS all about you, mister, or at least you seem to think so. You can't force people to get interested in something just 'cuz you want them to be, PN's found that out often enough.

(Personally I think you keep posting just so's you can change the title back to what you want)

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:10 AM

Hmm, property tax - good issue, got a lot of meat on it, so lets go there.

Thing about property taxes is, they don't go to the Feds, or the State, so much as directly to the community or municipality, township or whatnot that you live in, and theoretically, you GET something for them.

Stay with me here, I know the Anarchist within is cussin and spitting, but just hang with me and see how this works, or is supposed to work.

EVERYONE pays property taxes, save the homeless - yes, even renters cause it's collected as part of the rent, ok ?
More complex than that, sure, but let's keep it simple for the sake of discussion.

And you *DO* get stuff for them, traffic lights, road upkeep, snow removal services, stuff you'd rather not individually pay for and maintain personally, and so as a collective agreement, throw in with the rest of your community to finance.

This is NOT a bad idea, many communes operate under the same principle, usually through a treasurer, decision board, and committee of the whole.

Let's see what else you get...

Trash removal - always a plus, and remember during the city council fiasco I negotiated us a better deal on it, so obviously I'm for it - and collectively it's cheaper than hauling that stuff to the dump yourself, considerably.

Police - of debateble value but do you really wanna get YOUR hands dirty dragging a perp down to central booking ?
And as the current township has done, they screw up, you can cut their budget.

Firefighters - quite valuable, far better equipped and trained for the job, it's a public service well worth the expense overall.

EMT/ambulance - again, well worth the money to provide full time skilled and equipped professionals.

911/Dispatch - this is also in part paid for out of an attachment to your telephone bill, and while the response might not be as fast as one likes, being able to quickly call in the cavalry when you're handling the situation with a pistol, fire extinguisher or medkit is well worth the cost.

Local hospital/Clinic/Medical services - Well yes, having somewhere for the amulance to GO, especially quick, local and likely staffed by folks from your community is an expense worth payin too.

Sewage/Drainage systems - Umm, yeah, you wouldn't wanna handle THAT yourself, would you ?

Local park - relatively cheap, adds a bit of pretty and allows the kids somewhere to play if the neighborhood is safe enough.

Local library - again, relatively cheap, and useful besides.

Local school - not cheap, but even with all the problems it has, still a worthwhile investment, and one could make the case for allowing a waiver for the childless since they are not actually using this service.

Overall, much of what your property taxes get you, *IS* worth payin for, and the money comes directly from the folks in the area who by default benefit the most from the services rendered.

The problem comes when a city council or suchlike decides to use the property tax as their personal piggy bank - and this is avoidable or fixable in many ways, although hiring an Anarchist as a political hitman isn't exactly the best way to go about it thankee verra much!

Firstoff, is to make that budget PUBLIC, and published quarterly, so that the people being taxed know where it's going.

Second, is to give them their say on any changes to it, instead of allowing the ruling council to act like petty lords.

And Third - my reccommendation, this - is to give out a form with the property tax request which shows a percentage breakdown of where the money goes, complete with suggested dollar valuation for each category for the projected budget - but with the taxpayer making the final decision of what goes where.

So if you wanna shift a couple bucks here and there, you simply add or subtract from those amounts as required, and the council works with the budget they have - might get tricky the first three years when folks realize they just unfinanced services they want/need, and have to re-vote another assessment, but it's entirely doable.

Now, waste, excess and graft - that's an issue again, best handled locally, and I've done it, damn sure YOU could maybe do it, Wulf, just a matter of finding it, rooting out who is responsible, and making noise in your community about it - it's good practice, WAY easier than national politics, and a good intro to just how damn stupid and venal politicians are.
Just keep your temper and outwit them, most local politicians are lazy, stupid and incompetent since no one ever challenges them, and as long as you give them no *real* excuse to arrest you, you can push matters pretty good.

Of course, your safety might be at risk, but if that was your primary concern you'd not be where you are, sayin the things you are.

It's also a LOT more complicated than it looks, far more than you've expected or wished that it were, but you wanna get a fistfull of the reins, that's a DAMNED good place to start with it.

And there's always my lunatic "advice" to go on, such as it is.
Just remember free advice is usually worth about what ya paid for it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:12 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem, why arn't these things paid for with our "state tax"?

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:13 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Rather be king over the dipshits, than the rabble of dipshits...assclown.

'Course, you completely missed the point - that you're still a dipshit, either way!

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:13 AM

Or of course I could just howl and throw things...
*glares at everybody*
And then whinge that the discussion is going nowhere.

ETA - you don't "educate" folk with a stick upside the head, folks... well, unless you're Mikey, but seriously people!

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:15 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ehh.

Like I said.

Need to make a new persona. Someone nice, forgiving... but still puts the issues out there for discussions.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:19 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Some days here, I really feel like Tony Ja.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Frem, why arn't these things paid for with our "state tax"?

Because State Taxes have a larger scale of function, and it's damned unwise to have someone 200 miles away deciding what to budget for YOUR sewer system, if they can even be bothered - it would bog the process down worse than it already is into miutae(sp?) and open even worse avenues of corruption which would be harder to block.

One of the founders ideals, and where a good bit of the concept of states rights came from was that decisions are best made by the folks closest to the action, who will benefit or suffer from the immediate impact.

Having property taxes finance the things at arms reach actually REMOVES the Feds and the State from the process to some degree, keeping their grasping, meddling hands out of it, which is kinda what you want, in a way.

It's also one of the better examples of when and why a tax actually has a USE, and a direct one you can see when you look out your door at the stuff it bought you and your community.

State, that goes to highways, agencies, social programs, but dude, let's start small and work our way up, ok ?

For now you're only one dude - you not only need experience, you need allies, and getting them should also be a priority, which means NOT throwing rotten fruit yourself, even if you're buried in it, yes it sucks, but you got at least one person willing to advise you, and that trumps none.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:24 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I forget, is it called Bill For Privileges, or Bill Of Rights?

99% of all litigation is govt suing the sheeple, 99% of whom cannot afford a lawyer, so it's like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Today I found out on the phone a judge signed an order last month banning me from subpoenaing govt witnesses to testify they illegally hide public records. The court clerk and prosecutor refuse to send me copies of orders and motions against me, which is the crime of contempt of court. How many other sheeple do they do that to?

When a crime is perped against you, there's a 50% probability the crook is a salaried police informant with immunity from arrest. Your only hope of making an arrest is to do it yourself. This applies to ALL crimes, including cartheft, rape and murder.

99% of all laws are unconstitutional, and politicians brag they don't even read the laws they pass, and usually don't even vote for them because they don't even go to work. It costs $100,000 and 10 years for a lawyer to overturn 1 law, and there are over 50-million laws in USA, changing every day. So logistically its impossible for us to overturn bogus laws. Politicians and police never obey the laws they enforce against US.

Mafia run the monopoly garbage contracts for govt with a 1,000% "Mafia Tax on Garbage" (A&E TV's Modern Mobs). This is pretty much how most govt contracts work, using no-bid "cost plus" (blank check) accounting. Especially when govt owns golf courses and hotels for their special friends (who pay bribes).

CAFR profits can replace ALL taxes, and pay for free college. If you don't know what a CAFR is, how can you call yourself a citizen?

NONE of IRS income tax is used to fund ANY govt program. ALL IRS income taxes go to private banks, mostly offshore. Every penny the govt spends is borrowed from Commie China, Saudi Arabia or printed out of thin air.

It's madness!

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:31 AM

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Thing is, in practice you only have the "rights" you are willing to take and enforce - and by that I don't mean violence, if you wanna smoke a doobie in your shed, you don't have to clout someone to do it, just be discreet.

We're the sovereigns, not the peons, and it's time we acted it - and NOT in the way of petulant children throwing a tantrum, protests and verbal roasting of politicos has it's place, but should not soley be the basis of our efforts.

Don't THINK like a peon starting a bread revolt, think like a KING exploiting the weaknesses of the nobility to benefit his people.

Have any of you even READ Machiavelli ?!
Yeesh.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:35 AM

And I have to go take meds and lay down, alas.

Two last things.

First, quit throwin nasty back at people, Wulf, it accomplishes nothing and bogs your efforts into he-said-she-said where they flounder and become useless, every single time you stoop to mud wrestling.
(and there was a visual I never needed....)

Second, seriously, go to your township or city council and demand a copy of the budget, most places, they'll HAVE to give you one either for free or a minimal printout cost...
Then READ the bloody thing and get back with me, k ?

Gnite for now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:36 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thanx Frem...you spent the time and energy I'm not willing to in answering both questions.

Now, do me a favor: Watch and see the next time Wulf bitches and moans about property taxes and how they should be abolished. He will, I can all but guarantee it. What will be your opinion on "educating" then, if I may be so bold?

You may or may not have noticed that I treat him reasonably when he's reasonable, but more and more I'm seeing that the next time something comes up, his opinion hasn't changed one whit--so why keep bothering?

Let's see...

Wulf suggested property taxes.

A flag was put up by OTB.

Wulf put up a flag.

Another flag and a "kuddos" was put up by OTB

I responded to your post

Wulf snarked me.

I responded and explained

Wulf snarked me again.

You responded to his property taxes

Wulf asked a further question

Mike snarked Wulf.

You snarked everyone (somewhat gently). You said the topic was going nowhere, but it WAS...you had replied, Wulf had asked a further question.

Wulf complained TWICE about being picked on and put up another video.

You answered his question.

Do you not see a pattern here? Do you REALLY think Wulf will do the things you suggested? I say again...next time he complains about property taxes, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:44 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I give as good as I get, Niki.

But Frem is right, I need to go after my city council. Not sit here.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:51 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Giving as good as you get accomplishes nothing, Wulf, something you have yet to learn. You want to have serious discussions? Listen to Frem:

Quote:
First, quit throwin nasty back at people, Wulf, it accomplishes nothing and bogs your efforts into he-said-she-said where they flounder and become useless

Otherwise, few if any will take you seriously.

You don't even "give as good as you get"...there are plenty of examples. You "give" far more "good" (NOT) than you get, and do it first a lot of the time just because someone disagrees with you, not because they snarked you. Your choice whether to make the baggage, but if you do, you carry it with you wherever you go.

I'd bet dollars to donuts you never go down to your City Council. Oh, wait, you said "after" your City Council. Are you saying you don't agree with anything Frem said, and are still against property taxes?

Like Frem, I gotta go. Spent too much time here as it is...most of it wasted. I never learn.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Actually yes. Surprise...

I know Frem thinks hes saying the right thing... but I can't get past the idea that I'm (supposed to be) paying taxes on property I already own (car) AFTER I've already paid TAXES for it when I bought the goddamned thing!

So yeah. Frem and I disagree about this.

I bought my car with cash, paid the taxes for it... why do I STILL need to pay taxes for it?

So yea. I need to go "after/see" my city council about this garbage.

ETA: Not that it will do any good. But lets see what happens.

At the very fucking least, I'll be DOING something about this clusterfuck.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 12:47 PM

PERFESSERGEE

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Actually yes. Surprise...

I know Frem thinks hes saying the right thing... but I can't get past the idea that I'm (supposed to be) paying taxes on property I already own (car) AFTER I've already paid TAXES for it when I bought the goddamned thing!

So yeah. Frem and I disagree about this.

I bought my car with cash, paid the taxes for it... why do I STILL need to pay taxes for it?

So yea. I need to go "after/see" my city council about this garbage.

Greetings folks! I used to post here quite a bit but haven't in a long time. But I've lurked a good bit and thought I'd start again with a comment on this thread. Wulf, I think you have a misunderstanding about property taxes, or your state does things differently than every other state I've ever heard of. Property taxes are normally levied on real property (houses and land). You may have to pay registration fees for your car, but that's normally a state fee; property taxes are local. They are also universal and have been since human society first organized itself. The only people throughout history who didn't have to pay them were absolute rulers like kings and emperors - even the nobility paid property taxes.

And if you'd like to see what happens when you radically reduce them, all you have to do is look at California, where I live. We didn't even completely get rid of them, we just gutted local government via the utterly stupid but famous Proposition 13. It not only screwed up what had been one of the best public school systems in the nation, it transferred political control to the State govt, as counties simply couldn't pay for them. He who pays the bills gets to say what they pay for. Prop 13 also forced local govts to rely on sales taxes, which are frighteningly regressive and now outrageously high. And they now have to compete with each other ferociously for commercial developments that generate those sales taxes. If you haven't noticed how financially and politically dysfunctional California is, you haven't been paying attention.

Now getting rid of the sales tax, that I could go for (but we'd have to figure out how to pay for the services we want and aren't about to give up). Californians are good at shooting themselves in both feet with a machine gun. I wouldn't suggest following our example.

perfessergee

ETA for formatting

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 1:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I give as good as I get, Niki.

Baby, you are treated with figgin' kid-gloves. You spam video clip after video clip of nothing in particular, and then get upset when peeps don't talk about YOUR topic???

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:06 PM

Quote:
why do I STILL need to pay taxes for it?

Because SOMEBODY has to pay the trashmen to pick up the cans, silly!

You're paying for continuing services, and the amount you pay is related to how much "value" of the area you personally own, which is about as "fair" an assessment as is possible to get without everyone howling their head off.

Yes, there are abuses of the assessment process, and I'll walk you through that, but only AFTER you've read the budget and understood it's contents.

It's not a penalty for owning something, cause renters pay it too, it's a valid cost of the services in question - but getting a better bid, and chopping out the pork is always a viable option.

And let's us be honest, YOU want them services, *I* want them services, Anarchist that I am, and this *IS* a pretty good way to pay for them.

On the other hand, when you have budget in hand, and see the graft and largess, THEN you'll be cussin, and we'll discuss it further then.

Fair enough ?
(And it looks like my arse is gettin wet tonite, cause GUESS who has to walk rounds, arrrgh)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW- I agree with Rue. This guy pre-supposes that the a "second revolution" is necessary, and that going back to some mythic "small-government libertarian republic" will solve all of our problems.

It won't.

First of all, concerning states rights as being an answer: States can be just as tyrannical as the Federal govenment, and can abridge freedom just as badly it not worse. (It was states that wanted slavery, you may recall.) Being a "republic" is not an answer either.

I agree that our Federal government has gone off-track, but mainly in its service to corporations. But there is nothing to says that a smaller government, or state governments, will do any better, and may possibly do quite a bit worse.

As a side note- I noticed that the one person who really DID respond to your post (Rue)- you didn't respond to! So I doubt your claim to want a discussion, since you don't seem to be discussing!

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:13 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Actually here in my state, we HAVE to pay property taxes for our cars.

Now, between my wife and I, we own 2 cars... which amounts to about 200 bucks every 4 months. (600 bucks a year. Not much I suppose, but its the principle, dammit)

I CANNOT believe that I have to pay property taxes for property that I already own, and bought in another state! How does that even work?

But I do need to look at where and for what my money is going for.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:14 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I've been waiting for that discussion that never quite seems to happen.

HELLLOOOO ... ... helllooo ... helllooo ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ehh.

Like I said.

Need to make a new persona. Someone nice, forgiving... but still puts the issues out there for discussions.

Hello,

You can re-invent yourself without pretending to be someone new. If one were to reach back far enough into the morass of history, one would find me endorsing a wide range of policies I now abhor.

Even my behavior is more even-tempered than it used to be. (I think.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:27 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

1. If you do, say why.

2. "Ahem. He means FEDERAL power. And there are limits to FEDERAL power - called the Bill of Rights. It's the STATES that have unlimited power."

The Bill of Rights, which have been trampled, by both the State and the Federal?

3. "As happens cyclically with capitalism, regardless of government."

Name another capitalist society quite like ours. Also, had we been following the checks and balances, capitalism would be curbed.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"The tragedy is that the American people do not know why the economy collapsed."

I do.

"(by republic) I mean a government exercising limited powers delegated to it by the people ..."

According to him. But according to definition "The most common definition of a republic is a state without a monarch." Isn't he being just like the Red Queen: "A Word Means What I Say it Means; no More, no Less" ? I prefer the more common definition of words. And, why should I care what he says about any of it, if it's based on a bogus definition ?

"In a democracy, there are no real limits to government power."

Ahem. He means FEDERAL power. And there are limits to FEDERAL power - called the Bill of Rights. It's the STATES that have unlimited power.

"What is happening now is judgment day, the day of reckoning, the day the national Ponzi scheme collapsed."

As happens cyclically with capitalism, regardless of government.

"... let’s recognize what the Founders understood in 1776, that any republic has the right to withdraw from a union when it so chooses."

Probably true. But then, India and West and East Pakistan did just that, and look how well that worked out. I suspect that if you can't find a way to live together, you will be fighting endless border wars with each other.

"The sad truth is, though we want to restore the spirit of the American Revolution, we are outnumbered by Red Coats! ... a smaller, more dedicated army, with a just cause, can prevail against a larger, mercenary force."

AHA ! They (us damn 90 percenters) are not TRUE Americans ! They (us !) are Redcoats and mecenaries !

"Let’s take a quick look at the American Revolution."

Supported by about 45% percent of the population opposed by about 40%, with the rest undecided. Nope, this does not support the idea of a 'small' segment of the population going it alone.

"... if the American people understood one simple principle ... we could shrink the size of government by 90% in three months. All resources are scarce."

Except human resources, which are multiplicative.

"Republican government exists to protect private property."

Is that there in the Constitution ? The Bill of Rights ? Can anyone find me a quote on that ?

"Direct citizen action is hardly a new concept ... it’s what Gandhi used to topple the British Empire."

He would do SO much better if he didn't overstate the facts. He didn't topple the empire, rather, mass action helped get them out of the subcontinent. And again, it involved MASS LARGE SCALE action by many, many people. Small groups of teabaggers don't qualify.

"Boycott the bankers of the political class."

Great idea !
Who are they ? Can I buy a car made by them ? Can I get a home loan from them ? Is Wal-mart one of them ?

"What I’m saying is that judges should follow the law and should not lie to jurors!"

And I do that - how ?

"If any politician tells you they will improve your life, they’re lying. Don’t believe them."

It seems to work pretty well in Europe whose people have a higher standard of living than here.

***************************************************************

Maybe some people will buy this - I'm guessing people already pre-disposed to not like Obama will find a way to justify their dislike. I prefer to deal with what he does, or doesn't do, in actual fact.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:33 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Doing some more research here... apparently its NOT my entire state... just my county (and a few others) that charges a car tax... smh

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:45 PM

Well, there ya go - you need to take this up with your CITY council, not go all apeshit over-the-top "it's time for a revolution!" crazy.

And when that doesn't work, start organizing, and get active. And when THAT doesn't work, game the system the way everyone else does: register those cars in another county! :)

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:51 PM

Good, doin the homework is worth the time - find out what it goes to, and who makes the decisions, then if you have an issue, lean on THEM, right ?

Simple process, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you start LOCAL, you begin to understand the complexity and realize not all taxes are automatically "evil" - some of them are more along a mutual agreement to collectively bargain for services in order to get a good bulk rate on them, many of which I got little problem with.

And some of which I do - but in order to rightfully HAVE an issue with it, first you gotta find out where the money goes and how, or no one is gonna take you seriously for even thirty seconds.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:10 PM

DREAMTROVE

Common sense tax approach: Don't owe any. Everyone should stay below the poverty line. There are plenty of ways to "get your due" for work in an untaxable manner, such as non-liquid assets. If you have too much income, you probably have not enough allies. Spread your income across your allies.

The whole set up is a trick: People have education debt, mortgage debt, car debt, credit card debt, all of which is coming out of their income. So, really, very few people have disposable income above the poverty line, it's just that the whole system is tricked out to make you pay the max tax.

Dodge FICA by having an alternate means of support, run a small business, if need be, make that lose money, so it can have business expenses. That's why the country has gift shops: someone's tax loophole. Better than uncle sam's sinkhole.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:42 PM

SOCKPUPPET

Quote:
Everyone should stay below the poverty line.

I prefer not-poverty. Possibly electing a government that spent less money would be more effective.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 2:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sockpuppet:
Quote:
Everyone should stay below the poverty line.

I prefer not-poverty. Possibly electing a government that spent less money would be more effective.

Good luck with that.

Oh - did you mean "electing a government that PROMISES to spend less money"? 'Cause I think we tried that - in 1980, '84, '88, '92, '96, 2000, 2004, 2008...

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Friday, October 9, 2009 3:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Name another capitalist society quite like ours.

Nothing will every be "quite like" anything, but England, during the Industrial Revolution had many parallels: exploited masses vying with the colonies (India) for jobs, worldwide empire, ultra wealthy who thought the whole problem with England was the poor, unwashed, uneducated...

Your argument all boils down to the assumption that "big gubmint" is bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

And indeed, I can point a a vast number of problems with OUR government:

Worldwide military/ covert intervention. Most of our interventions abroad had nothing to do with fighting tyranny or spreading democracy. From at least Woodrow Wilson (who was violently anti-worker) forward, we consistently tromped in, in favor of oligarchs and tyrants under the name of "anti-communism", crushing movements for land reform, minimum wage, unionism, and national sovereignty of resources (aka "nationalization"). I could list you example after example, but I'm short of time, so for now the conclusion is that outside of WWI and WWII I would be hard-pressed to find more than a couple military interventions that were NOT in support of capitalism.

Imposition of NAFTA and WTO rules.

The Great Treasury Giveaway of 2008. (Don't forget, this was started under BUSH.)

Consistent rulings and/or lack of action in favor of corporate power and corporate monopolies.

Shredding the Constitution over a phony War on Terrorism. (Or the War on Drugs, for that matter.)

Creating the Fed, and giving up the power to create currency.

-----------------
OTOH, I can point to some stellar successes that ONLY a Federal government could have created:

The interstate highway system.

The EPA, which handles interstate pollution issues.

The FDA, which (until recently) kept most bad products off the market.

The internet.

Social Security- which, despite its detractors does a far better job than "the market" in ensuring a liveable future for our elderly.

Medicare, which - like SS- does a far better and cheaper job than its private counteraprts ensuring health care for the elderly.
-------------------

Yes, there is the potential for great harm in a centralized system. There is also the potential for great good, as exemplified by the EU countries. Why can they get it better, but not us??? Apparently, it has something to do with the European approach of improving on what is, instead of tearing everything down and starting over from scratch, and over, and over, and over.... (They apply this philosophy to their educational system as well.)

It all boils down to the corrosive influence of MONEY in our elections. Years ago, I realized the paradigm for our elections is "One dollar, one vote". Where does that money come into play???

TO FUND CAMPAIGNS.

And WHY is money so important?

TO BUY ADVERTIZING TIME.

We could eliminate at least 50% of the problem by simply REQUIRING THE MASS MEDIA TO COVER ALL VIABLE CANDIDATES FOR FREE.

It's already in the FCC Charter: Bandwidth-which is limited- is considered to be owned by the people. It is LICENSED by the FCC to private entities with the obligation to IMPROVED PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE.

So, let's start there.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 3:48 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Most of our interventions abroad had nothing to do with fighting tyranny or spreading democracy."

Indeed. Had we been following the Constitution, which is strictly non-interventionist, we never would have had these problems.

"The internet." This was a military program to keep all of the states in touch with each other in the event of a nuclear attack. Not really something good the Fed did, considering its now one of the main ways we are spied upon.

Also, my county is now having a 4 million dollar budget shortfall. Funny, how we pay some of the highest taxes in the state, and there is still a shortfall.

Seen a lot more cops patrolling and giving tickets. Duh, right?

Gotta do more research on WHY we have a budget shortfall.

Heh, maybe even look to running for city council. Wouldn't that be funny?

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Friday, October 9, 2009 3:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wulf, I think that's a great idea.

Congrats on bird-dogging down your county's issues!

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Friday, October 9, 2009 4:04 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Wow. We actually have a slush fund, and the money has mysteriously been "spent"... I have to get more details about where it went to.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Meanwhile they are turning the traffic cameras back on, increasing police patrols, and are planning on upping the counties taxes...

All the while outsourcing the budgeting committee.

This is getting surreal.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 5:29 AM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

lol

Actually, it's somewhat disturbing the amount of policy that's decided by *unelected* officials. Anyone else noticed the vultures pouncing within the Obama govt. now, like McChrystal and oh damnit, just yesterday there was a story, oh it was about the Mexican thing, racial profiling to remove mexicans. It's looking like at some point Obama caved to someone and then everyone else said, "Oh look, he's a pushover" and pounced. I actually do feel sorry for the guy. I think the shadowmen and Clintonistas make policy which Obama will take the blame for.

Sig,

I think the problem with govt. is that whatever we get, it will be american govt. If you look at *our* govt. and its past accomplishments, the way it runs things, including a railroad, but not limited to a wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact is, our govt. If we really wanna improve things, screw the whole changing the system thing, just hand it over to the swedes in some govt contract and say "here, run our healthcare system for us."

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Friday, October 9, 2009 7:26 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Wulf, I think that's a great idea.

Congrats on bird-dogging down your county's issues!"

Aim small, miss small.

Its a good a place to start as any.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 7:57 AM

Quote:

I think the problem with govt. is that whatever we get, it will be american govt. If you look at *our* govt. and its past accomplishments, the way it runs things, including a railroad, but not limited to a wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact is, our govt. If we really wanna improve things, screw the whole changing the system thing, just hand it over to the swedes in some govt contract and say "here, run our healthcare system for us."

Ya know, why the hell not? I mean shit, we've outsourced every other goddamned thing in this country - and the other nations ARE getting better outcomes for fewer dollars with their healthcare systems. It's as American as anything Reagan, Clinton, or either Bush ever tried; just outsource that shit! And hell, it's not like it's any kind of security risk, right? I mean, we DID outsource port security to Qatar or the United Arab Emirates, right? (I can't remember which one at the moment, and too lazy - er, I mean too short of time - to go look it up. :) )

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Friday, October 9, 2009 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Wulf, I think that's a great idea.

Congrats on bird-dogging down your county's issues!"

Aim small, miss small.

Its a good a place to start as any.

Damn straight.

And while you're perusing that budget, see if you can figure out how much of the tax money that's being COLLECTED locally is being SPENT locally. If you're in a city, there's about a 99% chance that your tax money is going to prop up some wonderful little hamlet where things still seem to be stuck in 1955. And if you're in a blue state, you've got about a 90% chance of having your federal tax money going to prop up a red state.

I know you're a big fan of secession, and everybody likes to dump on California, and I know you've praised that idiot piece of shit Rick "Looking for Mr. Goodhair" Perry that I'm saddled with as a governor, but seriously, look into where the money flows, and from whence it came. If any state seceded, California qould likely have the best chance of making it on its own. Texas? Not so much. And Alaska? Not a chance in hell, even if hell froze over; Alaska, if memory serves, takes more federal money per capita than any other state, relative to what it pays in (something like $2.xx paid out to Alaska for every dollar Alaska pays in). So much for rugged individualism, socialism, and spreading the wealth...

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Friday, October 9, 2009 8:21 AM