Don'tcha love their 'logic'? by Niki2

Sig,

This is pretty on target, and capitalism is a pretty appalling system. Not generally as bad as socialism, but probably a close second.

A couple points to nitpick:

1. The commoditization of land was the more radical step. This is why America was destroyed, and slavery was instituted: To convert America that was into money through cash crops such as cotton and tobacco.

2. Capitalism has its origins in ancient Egypt. It was inherited by the Roman Empire after the conquest of Egypt. Initially, Egypt had a wheat-trade based system, which was abstract trade but not capitalism, since it wasn't generationally persistent.

It was the switch to the gold standard, which probably came from the influence of the Saharan Mande civilization that transformed ancient Egypt into a persistent capitalist society. Rome took this, the greek system of fiat coinage of abstract value, and created the corporation, making the capitalist system as we know it today. Capitalism suffered a pretty major blow in the industrial revolution, as for the first time, people outside of the status quo were capable of generating enormous amounts of wealth. This was squashed through the creation of the stock markets, which allowed capital, ie, the banks, to own industry, and also through nationalization, which allowed monarchies and later socialist states, to own industry. Now capitalism has another major setback: The information revolution.

We do live in interesting times. Remember, no matter what incoming bent you may have towards all these loaded words, all are to be looked at with utmost scrutiny. A lot of people support socialism because it is preached in universities by socialists, but it's really little more than a religion, where the state takes the place of god. Part of the problem here is that we live in a society of false dichotomies: Coke vs. Pepsi. The reality is you can like or dislike both, in fact, they are so similar, it makes little sense to do anything but like or dislike both, but we are pushed to choose one over the other. Ergo, just because capitalism is evil, doesn't make socialism good. If anything, going on the historic record, socialism is more evil, but that by itself will not lead me to support capitalism.

I see free trade and the free market as separate from either. We need some form of abstract exchange, because barter falls apart when you think about it: I need some roofing done. Sure, I have a lot of skills, but what if the roofer really wants a new car. I can't build him one. This would get incredibly complicated very quickly. Still, we shouldn't have a system that allows persistent wealth to be passed down through the generations, or anything to be able to be destroyed simply to turn it into abstract capital, nor should absolute power to be trusted to anyone, or a system of universal cooperation be enforced to the point where we all must fall in line with our leaders, especially lest they be insane, which seems to be eerily common.

just my two cents

ETA:

Take George W. Bush vs. Saddam Hussein. I would consider these to be very run of the mill capitalist and socialist leaders. I can find much much worse, as well as much better, leaders, but they both betray the flaws in their systems.

No one in their right mind would want either one. It's easy to say "Well, we could have a better capitalist/socialist." Well, sure, you could. But you could also have much worse. You really can't rely on just getting a better leader, it's always going to be a role of the dice. I'm holding out for a much better system: One in which a bad leader doesn't automatically result in rampant death, destruction and economic collapse.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, Geezer, do you have anything TOPICAL to say??

Of course not.

You just hope to make the message go away by attacking the messenger. As usual.

Siggy. You making that remark is about the funniest thing I've seen here in quite some time.

I tried being topical at the top of this post and, since I didn't sing the same song as the choir, got called "Dick" for not being agreeable, and someone (now who could that have been?) responded with "ahhh... ahhHHH... aaAHHHHHH... AHHHHHH!!!... BULLSHOID! 'Scuse me! That was a sneeze, not a comment!". So following your example is wrong?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

It's becoming increasingly hard for me to nail down precisely what socialism and capitalism are...

It is, isn't it. And it gets even more difficult when folks with an agenda to advance go shopping for an outlier definition that fits in with their pre-conceptions (easy to find on the Net), require everyone else to accept that definition without question, and then use it to "prove" their argument.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:02 AM

RIVERLOVE

Joey Lieberman has emerged from hiding under his "I support McCain rock" to play spoiler against Govt. healthcare.

Sarah Palin's un-released "book" is shattering pre-order records, and she is being discussed by the pundits almost in a serious way.

George Bush is now on a lecture circuit, speaking about leadership and God, and people are paying a lot of money to hear him.

HAS A PAX-ISH CHEMICAL BEEN RELEASED INTO THE AIR?

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:34 AM

BYTEMITE

No, but there's been a lot of fluoride put in the water.

Ooooooh.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:11 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Hello, Well, does scale matter?"

I was putting it into a different context to help me think about it. Something which might be hard to categorize in one form might be easier to categorize in a more familiar form.

It comes down to - is the chicken coop a business ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Insurance for everyone is gonna cost everyone more money ..."

Not true. 30% of all (private) insurance dollars go to profit, exec salaries and benefits, and paperwork. Take that off the top and insurance becomes cheaper. And if there is a public OPTION you may OPT to use it. In which case you may OPT for the cheaper insurance.

"... (except the folks the government gives it to for free, which ain't gonna be you or me)."

The ones who need their insurance to be free - already get it through the government. You are already paying for them, except in the most expensive way - ERs and medical crises.

In another thread I linked a long article about WHAT drives health costs up. And it is doctors who are practicing medicine to make as much money as possible, and not to get their patients as healthy as possible. That means more tests (especially if they own a stake in the lab or bought the imaging equipment), more procedures like surgeries and treatments, and less co-ordination with other doctors. The Cleveland Clinic, which provides some of the best care aound, also has some of the lowests costs. And extremely expensive care by money-motivated doctors gets worse results.

Those are the FACTS - as opposed to your usual bullshit.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Hello, Well, does scale matter?"

I was putting it into a different context to help me think about it. Something which might be hard to categorize in one form might be easier to categorize in a more familiar form.

It comes down to - is the chicken coop a business ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Hello,

Well, that's a good question, Rue. Is making a little money, or making ends meet a little better, by selling eggs on the side a business?

What if the neighbor's kid is hired to pick all the fruit, and then I have a garage sale where I sell the fruit? Is that a business?

And would this be outlawed in a socialist style of government, if the government is supposed to control all means of production?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Not true. 30% of all (private) insurance dollars go to profit, exec salaries and benefits, and paperwork. Take that off the top and insurance becomes cheaper. And if there is a public OPTION you may OPT to use it. In which case you may OPT for the cheaper insurance."

Hello,

I am pleased with the idea of having *optional* insurance provided by the government. I enjoy the thought of having freedom of choice. More choices can only be better.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I don't feel much more enlightened now than when I started this discussion. Except in this- I don't think anyone ought to be shaking their head at anyone else for not knowing what these words mean. It seems to be subject to interpretation.

It is. Enough books have been written on the topic to fill a section of library shelves, and if you look at the topic of economics in general, you could fill a small library.

But I believe we ARE more enlightened than before, because at least we know that the definition is not an easy one, and we've questioned our assumptions. To me, that's progress.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Siggy. You making that remark is about the funniest thing I've seen here in quite some time. I tried being topical at the top of this post and, since I didn't sing the same song as the choir, got called "Dick" for not being agreeable

Not by me, so why are you singling me out???

Quote:
and someone (now who could that have been?) responded with "ahhh... ahhHHH... aaAHHHHHH... AHHHHHH!!!... BULLSHOID! 'Scuse me! That was a sneeze, not a comment!". So following your example is wrong?

Your assumption about the availability of healthcare to pre-existing conditions was way off the mark. I also followed that comment up with two very concrete, personal examples demonstrating that you were wrong... comments that you didn't refute. The person not being topical here is ....???

Quote:
It is, isn't it. And it gets even more difficult when folks with an agenda to advance go shopping for an outlier definition

Which outlier defintion are you referring to, Geezer? Instead of arguing by insinuation, just make your point, and make it honestly.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Well, that's a good question, Rue. Is making a little money, or making ends meet a little better, by selling eggs on the side a business? What if the neighbor's kid is hired to pick all the fruit, and then I have a garage sale where I sell the fruit? Is that a business? And would this be outlawed in a socialist style of government, if the government is supposed to control all means of production?

I think yes, yes, and it depends.

Yes, its a business if you sell eggs on the side. No, its not capitalism if you are the owner AND the worker at the same time. Even in Russia, when farms were collectivized, people had their small plots of land which they cultivated. It doesn't even begin to look like capitalism until you start paying somebody else- in money- for their work. Whether or not it would be outlawed by a socialist economy or not would depend on how strictly the economy is regulated. It seems to me than an exception should be made for small businesses (under 5 people) because this size seems unlikely to engender the huge discrepancy in wealth and power which businesses and monopolies enjoy.

I personally would like to see everything larger than about 5 people to be organized as a cooperative business (a business of co-owners), and certain businesses which are necessarily large and virtual monopolies (eg power transmission, water supply, sanitation, roads, canals, communications etc) to be government-run.

BTW, in doing some reading, I found that even Adam Smith assumed that these "larger" fuctions (transportation etc) would be government-run, so even Adam Smith didn't advocate laissez-faire capialism.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:33 AM

River,

lol

Actually, yes, but I read it wasn't so much money, that you could get Bush as a consultant for $19. Sarah Palin is running for president, so of course they're taking her seriously. Someone is putting her up to it, probably to split the xtian vote. I'm banking on them miscalculations and not taking in the mayan 2012 factor, and she might actually win.

Joementum is just whining for attention.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:46 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Hello, Well, does scale matter?"

I was putting it into a different context to help me think about it. Something which might be hard to categorize in one form might be easier to categorize in a more familiar form.

It comes down to - is the chicken coop a business ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Hello,

Well, that's a good question, Rue. Is making a little money, or making ends meet a little better, by selling eggs on the side a business?

What if the neighbor's kid is hired to pick all the fruit, and then I have a garage sale where I sell the fruit? Is that a business?

And would this be outlawed in a socialist style of government, if the government is supposed to control all means of production?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Hello,

I have lived places where you were only, by city ordnance, allowed to have a certain number of garage sales a year, or you were considered a "business". So if you were selling eggs at your "garage sale", you'd actually be a roadside stand, and therefore likely be a business.

I doubt that this is the kind of thing that would be outlawed in a socialist society; I think the idea there is that the government controls the MAJOR means of production, not every single individual means of production. Although it should be noted that it has in many cases been outlawed in a supposed "free market" capitalist society like ours. By law in most places, you can only do a certain dollar amount of "business" before you must start ACTING like a business. These laws are generally lobbied for by businesses. Often by very large businesses, who don't want any small upstarts trying to actually COMPETE with them.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Not true. 30% of all (private) insurance dollars go to profit, exec salaries and benefits, and paperwork. Take that off the top and insurance becomes cheaper. And if there is a public OPTION you may OPT to use it. In which case you may OPT for the cheaper insurance."

Hello,

I am pleased with the idea of having *optional* insurance provided by the government. I enjoy the thought of having freedom of choice. More choices can only be better.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I'm pleased by the idea of having options, too. I'd like to see a non-profit option, a single-payer option, the option of being able to join an insurance co-op, etc. We'll have to see how it all shakes out, won't we?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:16 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not by me, so why are you singling me out???

I'm not. There's plenty of your cronies, as well as you, who use insult rather than topical response.

Quote:
Your assumption about the availability of healthcare to pre-existing conditions was way off the mark.

If that's your opinion then why not just argue the merits of your case rather than starting with the obligatory insult?

I get the feeling that your ideal RWED would be as follows:

PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.

Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) is Evil". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Blasphemer", "Unmutual", "Dick", "Corporatist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and everyone feels justified.

Oh, and back to topic. The difference between you and a capitalist is that a capitalist wants folk to give him money in exchange for goods and services. You just want folk to give you money. If they don't, you expect the government to force them to give you money.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:03 PM

I'd like to see the sticker price on the product (the us healthcare system) go down from $4T, not up. Quality could us some work to.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not by me, so why are you singling me out???

I'm not. There's plenty of your cronies, as well as you, who use insult rather than topical response.

Quote:
Your assumption about the availability of healthcare to pre-existing conditions was way off the mark.

If that's your opinion then why not just argue the merits of your case rather than starting with the obligatory insult?

I get the feeling that your ideal RWED would be as follows:

PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.

Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) is Evil". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Blasphemer", "Unmutual", "Dick", "Corporatist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and everyone feels justified.

Oh, and back to topic. The difference between you and a capitalist is that a capitalist wants folk to give him money in exchange for goods and services. You just want folk to give you money. If they don't, you expect the government to force them to give you money.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Yeah, Geezer, at least you're not being INSULTING, right?

What would YOUR idea RWED look like?

PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.

Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) wins again - YAY!". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Terrorist", "Un-American", "Dick", "Communist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and Geezer feels justified.

Of course, in your dream RWED, you'd also get to whine and complain about people namecalling and being insulting, by insulting them and calling them names. And you absolutely would not see the hypocrisy inherent in your own actions.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:36 AM

Mike,

very few real world events are discussed here. Mostly it's politics, an imaginary system where arbitrary collections of beliefs are assembled into sides so the people can bash each other over the head, which they do here daily. Thanks for lending a hand [/snark]

But seriously, the real illusion, besides the one that any of this issue debating has any effect on policy, is that there should be any policy at all. Politics is a completely artificial system, like the monetary system, or the Church, with no more reality than a game of Dungeons and Dragons. If we stop believing in it, it will go away. Much like addiction in that way.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 4:14 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'd like to see the sticker price on the product (the us healthcare system) go down from $4T, not up. Quality could us some work to.

Nancy Pelosi introduced a plan with a public option that they estimate will only cost 980-ish billion, and that will lower the federal deficit every year. Supposedly. I haven't read it, but that's the word from the Congressional Budget Office.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'm not. There's plenty of your cronies, as well as you, who use insult rather than topical response.

Actually, I don't. Even in the example that you cite below, my comments were topical. You simply chose to evade the topic and instead respond to....

Quote:
the obligatory insult

It was a joke, and it wasn't even directed at you.

Quote:
I get the feeling that your ideal RWED would be as follows:
PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.
Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) is Evil". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Blasphemer", "Unmutual", "Dick", "Corporatist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and everyone feels justified

So, once again you resort to putting words in people's mouths and attributing thoughts and attitudes to others?

Appparently, you missed my actual posts about capitalism. So let me remind you of what I've actually said, as opposed to what seems to be echoing in your skull:

Capitalism is very good at some things, and production efficiency is one of them. In its expansionary phase, when profit is turned to reinvestment, new production technologies are implemented which allow more to be done with less. Another positive aspect is demand-driven production.

However, capitalism has some serious flaws. For one thing it is unstable because it aids the concentration of wealth, which causes demand to drop and the economy to slow down in a self-reinforcing downward cycle. Another problem is that it doesn't reward work, but instead rewards ownership and greed. A third problem is that market forces can't address the problems of "the commons".

I've had a fine time discussing the upsides and downsides of capitalism, the several possible alternatives which would preserve its positive aspects but eliminate the negative ones. But neoliberals, laissez faire capitalists, and capito-libertarians have elevated capitalism as the goal of our economy rather than one of several means towards prosperity, and refuse to consider the possibility that capitalism may not, after all, be the solution to all of our problems.

What about you?

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

bump for Geezer

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

OK, I'll go along.

bump for Geezer

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:11 PM

I trust Pelosi as far as I can throw an elephant.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:29 PM

BYTEMITE

Heh. True enough.

But since you were talking about price tags, I thought I'd mention it.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I trust Pelosi as far as I can throw an elephant.

Then you still trust her more than I do. ;)

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What I'd like to see are the real bills being debated. Yeah, I know... they're 1900 pages... subject to change... written in language that would put a meth head to sleep... but still. Transparency would be nice, 'cause all we have to go on are rumors and rumors of rumors.

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:08 PM

I'm not sure how much it costs to buy Nancy Pelosi

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Prolly less than it costs to buy Lieberman. Bet ya dollars to donuts Lieberman is looking at a nice, cushy consulting job with an insurance when he leaves the Senate at the end of his term. (Don't let the door hitcha on the way about, ya backstabbing maroon!)

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Thursday, October 29, 2009 5:04 PM