REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Michael Moores' F 9/11... will you see it?

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 3, 2004 10:30
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 22850
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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:59 AM

GHOULMAN


Finally I'd seen M. Moores movies and I'm a great fan of his style and down-home American know-how. This guy is what the USA is all about, or should be.

I'd found this article that was rather well written in sentiment. I thought I'd post it here.
--------------------------
Tue, June 22, 2004
Am-Bushed
Turns out peaceniks were the real patriots all along
By RICK BELL, CALGARY SUN
--------------------------
It should anger all of us, this Fahrenheit 9/11 film. In fact, Michael Moore's award-winning, irritatingly incisive expose of Bush Junior and his strike-first-and-ask-questions-never bully boys, should leave Calgarians particularly peeved, since it is a celluloid confirmation of betrayal by a president much loved in these parts. How hard it will be for some of us to finally confront the truth. Those who have been made fools.

After all, think back.

When Dubya decided to embark on his misadventure in Iraq, sentiment in this country from coast to coast to coast swung solidly against signing up with the coalition for the killing, cautious about a common cause that was righteous in rhetoric but murky in motives. At the time, precious little skepticism surfaced in Calgary, however.

A solid majority of this city's citizens, including the overwhelmingly-adored favourite sons Ralph Klein and Stephen Harper, were gung-ho Geronimo ready to send our forces into the firefight, semper fi, do-or-die. The good ol' U.S. of A. Their country, right or wrong. Let's twist those Iraqi wrists until they say Uncle ... Sam.

Only a few thousand stalwarts, activists like Noel Ainsley, took to the streets to sound the alarm, shocked but refusing to be awed by the promised pulverizing. They did nothing rude or radical, simply questioned the edicts of authority.

Where were those weapons of mass destruction? Did the Iraqis really pose a imminent threat to us? Why could we not wait for the UN inspectors to complete their mission, mere weeks? Where WAS this alleged link between 9/11 and Iraq?

If no link, and there isn't, then what was the real purpose of the war? Why were the swimming-in-oil Saudis not pursued, Saudi Arabia being home base to most of the hijackers and the big bucks of the bin Laden clan? Why did 9/11 itself somehow get lost in the shuffle, with no card ever assigned out of the famous deck?

Ask those questions last year around these hawkish environs and you'd bear the bull's-eye, targeted as a traitor, an appeaser, an anti-American, a peacenik, a wimp, a Saddam sympathizer, some sort of snot who would have rolled over for Hitler if you'd been born back before the Big One.

Like Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, inspiration for this film's title and a book about a society of blinkered book-burners, there was just one legitimate line and you were expected to shut up and toe it.

So we have this film, opening Friday in a cinema near you. There are humorous bits, as in Moore's past efforts, but there is much that is not. There is the person of Michael Moore but there are many spots where the story tells the tale.

You will see the grieving Iraqi mother and the grieving American mother, the abused prisoners and the grunts in the gunsights. You will see the slimy world of oil politics (see, this film is of interest to the oilpatch), the links between the Saudi royals and the Bush family, the money being made by the mighty in the land once known as Mesopotamia.

There is the vacationing prez not getting worked up by evidence of an impending attack, opposing an investigation into 9/11 after it occurred, there is the cheerleading press corps. You find out more on why the Americans turned their guns on a country not connected to the terrorist attacks, you will witness those who lose their liberties in the name of security, you will find out the name blacked out when Bush made public his less-than-gallant military record and why.

You will see how Bush actually responded when he finds out about the attacks on the awful day. You will NOT see the Baghdad victory parade or the vanquishing of al-Qaida (they got bigger) or congressmen's kids marching off to war (there's one).

In the end, Michael Moore makes a simple statement, unspoken in the script of this film but repeated elsewhere.

It is patriotic to question the government.

Who didn't question? Who are the real traitors now?

Me again! It's funny but I've noticed how split the world has become. Before George "Dubya" Bush sent in the troops there were world wide protests over a US invasion there. Some of the protests were the largest seen in history. Yet the White House ignored the voice of the majority and went ahead with a clearly illegal attack on a nation that was no threat to anyone. After all, the USA has controled Iraq militarily since the Gulf War.

Now that it's been revealed that there is no Iraq threat (even D. Kay, who was the White Houses WMD hunter, today says that anyone who says there are WMDs in Iraq is "delusional")... George W. Bush and D. Cheney and thier Right Wing crowd in the White House STILL insist on keeping silent about the truth... they lied to America and sent thier sons and daughters to die in a foreign land for no good reason but the greed and hate of the rich elite Corporate masters of American foreign policy.

Kerry and his ilk will continue this foreign policy I'll bet. But I could be wrong?

I've said before that I'm of the opinion that the current situation in Iraq is similair politically to what brought the USA into the Vietnam Conflict.

That is; useing war and death to further thier own interests (often called "American Interests abroad"). All with no regard to rule of law, human loss, or tragedy for the tens of thousands of US soldiers who were slaughtered by Freedom Fighters in Vietnam.

In the case of the Vietnam Conflict this "conspiracy of silence" was proven by a brave American patriot named David Ellsberg who, by breaking traitor laws, printed copies of the 7000 page secret history commisioned by the Nixon White House... called The Pentagon Papers (do a search, there's lots of interesting info about this document and the history of the War).

You know, the White House that employed Dick Cheney.

Now that some truth has come out, we who knew it all along can try to speak our opinions without being called a traitor by morons who took GWB seriously when he said to the American people; "you're either with us, or against us".

Can't tell you how sad it is to see the American Elite and thier Right Wing Movement ignore the dieing people and even US soldiers in Iraq for THE LAST YEAR.

Well, if you are for the war - you are against the troops.

If you're for the war - you're for Osama continuing to hide in safety.

Time to choose America!

... wow, I'm ranting now!

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:04 AM

HERO


I like his early work. But his 'Bowling for Columbine' was full of falsehoods and misrepresetation.

So no. Don't need to see his Mockumentary on the Bush 9/11 conspiracy.

Plan to see 'Around the World in 80 Days' instead.

H

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:14 AM

SUCCATASH



I can't wait to see this movie. Bush sucks.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:14 AM

JCOBB


http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/trailer_sm.html

http://moorewatch.com/index.php/weblog/C9/

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/fallujah.htm

http://www.mooreexposed.com/

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.mooreexposed.com/swm.html

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).

The very fact that he can convince people through artfully misleading them, and then they don't go and check the facts afterwards makes me wonder if Moore isn't doing anything more then trying to have a good laugh over how persuasive he can be by lying through his teeth.

EDIT

So, yeah, Ghoulman, I can't wait for America to turn into the piss pot of the world because we follow Moore's example.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:22 AM

SIGMANUNKI


From what I can see he always gets the idea across. Those that pick at those little details that he leaves out are just anal. It won't make a good entertaining movie.

I view these movies as a jist of things and if something peaks my interest I look into it further. But in general, I sit back, relax, and enjoy. Moore definitely has peoples number.

After all, if he got things horribly wrong (at least when it comes to the /president/), he'd be sued.

Can't wait to see it

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:24 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Oh yeah, I'll go see it. Definitely. I know that Michael Moore can be over-the-top in his presentation and he sometimes can support good points with faulty statements, but if you know that going into it, you can take from it what you will. I don't always agree with his methods (he can shoot himself in the foot sometimes), but I do almost always agree with his politics. And if the right-wingers can get their kicks off the over-the-top, lowest common denominator, conspiracy-riddled ramblings of Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly, then hey! I get to wallow in the guilty pleasure of Michael Moore. It's about time!



----------------------------------------
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:25 AM

TALLGRRL


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/trailer_sm.html

http://moorewatch.com/index.php/weblog/C9/

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/fallujah.htm

http://www.mooreexposed.com/

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).

I don't care, I'm still free.


I don't care, I'm still free...well, at least for the time being. Seems that there are some people running this country that want to put a stop to that.
Actually Michael Moore loves this country very deeply and is appalled, like I am, by the direction its so-called "leaders" are taking it.
If someone you love is acting in a boorish behaviour, don't you tell them? If you love them you do.
There are people who are actually trying to get this movie banned. Let's call them the Movie Nazis.
What I want to know is what are they afraid of?
Moore isn't telling tales out of school. And he's not lying. (The lying has been done by Bush Incorporated and his cronies.)
Moore's information isn't from "Deep Throat". It's public record, news reports, and stuff that people SHOULD have been paying attention to all along. It's never been a secret about the Bush connections to Saudi oil. It's never been a secret that Bush Jr was a below average student, his way paved by his Daddy and Daddies cronies (most recently the Supreme Court), it's never been a secret that we have a moron in the White House. The world is in on that little secret.
You're free to not see this movie.
I should be free to see it. And I plan to.
If the Powers that Be have nothing to hide, then this movie should have as wide a distribution as the fictional stuff that's in the movieplexes.


"Take me, sir. Take me hard."

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:40 AM

JCOBB


Good, *insert diety here*...

Do you people not even CARE about the truth? (Being broad and sweeping here.)

"Its okay to lie through your teeth if you happen to believe the same thing I do.."

Is this really what you want to say? I mean, honestly, if you happen to follow a different agenda to my own, fine, I can live with that. (Just don't try to force your will upon me.) But do you HONESTLY want Mr. Moore as your spokesperson? I mean, really? He lies constantly, and those proclaiming his brilliance have only bought into his bullsh*t, without doing any checking themselves.

Look, I am not going to say one way or the other if what Moore wants is right. Either you think so, or you don't. I can't change your mind. But if you think that you can do what you consider right through lies and being less-then-truthful to people, then I think you have another thing coming.

Look, I like a lot of you here, even those I disagree with. I think that many of you have great intentions, that you don't wake up every morning intent on destroying my way of life. I would like to think that we are similar in many respects, we are all human beings, we all are trying to make a living, we all want the same general things, (life, liberty, and the ability to pursue happiness) and as such I would like to think that regardless of political leanings we could all, at the very least, get along. But this is just a travesty.

The ends do not always justify the means.

Sorry, Sig, I do like you, but things like, "From what I can see he always gets the idea across. Those that pick at those little details that he leaves out are just anal. It won't make a good entertaining movie." just bug the hella outta me.

EDITED Thrice (dagnabbit)

Tallgrrl,

I think you are confusing private enterprise, the ability for a company to do as it chooses, for whatever reason that is, with government overwatch. If Disney didn't want to publish Farenheit 9/11 they don't HAVE TO. The very idea that they are somehow violating free speech because they are doing as they see fit is more then a little stupid. Unless, of course, your idea of free speech is making a company publish, (or whatever Mirimax/Disney was going to do for F 9/11) Michael Moore's works, regardless.

If Michael Moore was SO concerned about free speech, (instead of making a buck) why doesn't he release it free of charge on the internet, or why doesn't he spend a bit of his own wealth to get it out to the "people."

It is not like he is some pauper that doesn't stand a chance in the big-kids world.

As far as Bush being the big fat lying liars here, why don't you do some research on the "other" side of Michael Moore. Blind faith isn't recommended, my dear.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:58 AM

CAOILTE


Quote:
If Michael Moore was SO concerned about free speech, (instead of making a buck) why doesn't he release it free of charge on the internet, or why doesn't he spend a bit of his own wealth to get it out to the "people."


ooooooh. i hate people who say this. It's so hypocritical. Apparently you can't be interested in free speech AND making a buck folks. That's right, only people interested in state oppression AND making a buck allowed beyond this point.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 8:07 AM

EARLYWASLATE


I will watch documentaries and enjoy them. F 9/11 isn't one.

It appears MM manipulates the facts for shock value rather than presenting them accuratly. I believe/trust his presentation about as much the "Reality TV" Fox pushes. He can push his version of "Reality," but just like with Fox, I ain't buying it.

BTW: Public figures are typically considered open season for satire, which is really what this movie is: a satire.






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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 8:14 AM

JCOBB


Quote:
Originally posted by caoilte:
Quote:
If Michael Moore was SO concerned about free speech, (instead of making a buck) why doesn't he release it free of charge on the internet, or why doesn't he spend a bit of his own wealth to get it out to the "people."


ooooooh. i hate people who say this. It's so hypocritical. Apparently you can't be interested in free speech AND making a buck folks. That's right, only people interested in state oppression AND making a buck allowed beyond this point.


I absolutely never said that. But if he couldn't get a distrubitor, as he earlier claimed, (before getting picked up, of course) and he was so apparently concerned about "getting his message out," (thats why he was pushing for a PG-13 rating on his movie) then there are multiple avenues available to him. I think Moore likes feeling like a victim. He likes thinking that he's the little guy standing up to the big guy (personally I think that title would have to go to Michael Wilson).

Hell, Moore's not a poor peasant, not capable of publishing himself. Its not that difficult for a guy who has as much money as he does.

I am also sorry you hate me for this.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:13 AM

HJERMSTED


Hell yes I'm going to see this! If for no other reason than to experience the "other" side of issues concerning GW Bush. The news in the States is far too cleansed to be considered enlightening or informational.

If Fox News were truly "Fair and Balanced" there would be no need for Michael Moore to make this film. The images in the film (particularly the war footage) and the views expressed would already haven been seen and known by all. If it takes a Michael Moore film to get the political view opposing the U.S. mainstream corporate view we are fed daily... more power to Moore! Banzai, dude!

(There are other worthwhile documentaries coming out as well: Orwell Rolls in His Grave and The Corporation spring immediately to mind... neither produced by Michael Moore).

I encourage all Michael Moore haters to go see his film anyway. Sneak in if you object to paying $. Be polite. See what Moore has to say. If you disagree, fine. That is the process with which you come to decisions and think for yourself. If the facts disagree with you, contest them by researching them yourself old school journalism style (sadly, old school research does NOT include pointing and clicking your way to www.moorehaters.com, et al).

And if you hear O'Reilly spouting off about the film at some point (as I'm certain you will) keep in mind HE HASN'T EVEN SEEN THE WHOLE THING. Michael Moore caught him walking out on the premiere presentation he attended. How's THAT for an informed "journalist"? O'Reilly can't even sit his lazy ass through a frickin' movie for crying out loud! Truly dedicated to his profession, that fella is.

Lastly, I hate to tell you this folks... Michael Moore is most certainly a Browncoat!

Mattro

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:14 AM

WINTERFELL


it's just a movie.. I think it would be sad if people wanted Moore as the spearhead for their anti-bush sentiments (I would happily take his place) but I'm indeed glad this film is being released. It's about time we found a few people not afraid of this administration and willing to speak freely.. you should honestly be able to make a movie about whatever you want, even if it is nothing but lies (which Moore's film is not.. there really is some good information in the film regardless of his slant).. At least it might spark some interest in a few folks to actually begin to dig deeper beyond the major media conglomerates to find out what the hell is really going on. If not.. ah well.. at least it'll be fun to see him make an ass out of a president who is quite good at that himself.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:34 AM

RADHIL


Moore's an interesting little bugger, ain't he?

I probably agree with all of his politics, and I'm pretty sure the movie will be at least 2/3rds factual.

Of course, it's the last 1/3rd that bugs me. I have no interest in paying to see shock schlock and propoganda, no matter how much of it I might agree with, and no matter how much I've already researched and found to be true (and I have found quite a bit).

That said, I am enjoying seeing certain people squirm over it. Petty, true. But enjoyable.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:37 AM

JCOBB


Bah, I suppose you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink.

Well, I don't know if I ever thought that people would. Some people will cling to their ideals no matter what.

EDIT

And if Moore's a brown coat, then hell, sign me up for the Alliance. I would have to say Michael Wilson is the browncoat.

"...few people not afraid of this administration and willing to speak freely"

Erm, you don't get out much, do you? Bashing Bush, and the administration isn't some amazing new thing, bud. Turn on the news, go watch Jon Stewart, I mean, its hard NOT hear something about the administration.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:31 AM

TERRIBLETINK


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

I think Michael Moore brilliantly illustrates just how stupid other people can be, (at least those that take everything he says at face value).



I though Fox News illustrated that a loooong time ago.



Look, in the world of political persuasion, almost all facts and events are open to interpretation. The truth is that no one, liberal or conservative, should take anyone's messages at 100% face value.


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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:35 AM

JCOBB


Well, thanks for that, but the number of posts was a little excessive, dontcha think?



I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:27 AM

JCOBB


http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102725/

So much for your much vaunted freedom of speech.


"We seem to love rabble-rousers of all political stripes. But if Moore is going to bash Bush as a liar and ridicule the news media as lap dogs, his case needs to be airtight. When you're a fearless muckraker, you look awfully silly stomping around with big gobs of mud on your own shoes."

http://moorelies.com/news/specials/latimes_moore.cfm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/shapiro/2004-06-15-hype
_x.htm

Even more liberal papers aren't taking Moore seriously.

Go see the movie, I just might, but again, take it with a grain of salt.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:31 AM

WINTERFELL


@ jcobb

I have no clue what you do for a living, but I have a leg in the music business.. now.. mostly I talk to independent distributors, small labels, underground bands.. this is pretty much do what ever you want because you are small potatoes and no one knows you.

However, I can tell you for a fact that if you are signed with any major record label you are not to be rocking the boat.. especially against bush. some labels (Warner bros. I know specifically) have halted the production on a number of albums by various artists who had anti-bush lyrics or were openly opposed to the war in Iraq. I for one abhor censorship in any media, and there is more going on behind the scenes than alot of folks understand.. just because yer paranoid don't mean, yadda yadda...

you can feel free to bash me because "I don't get out much", asshole, but you don't know me, and I wasn't even addressing you until now.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:43 AM

JCOBB


Erm, it is well within the rights of a company to not fund something if they do not wish to be affiliated with it. Forcing a company to do something in the name of "freedom of speech" is, infact, infringing on that companies freedom. I think its more then a little ironic that people can go and bash these companies for doing what they think is good for buisness, or even what they think is, "right."

I think that people need to learn to draw the line between state-sponsored censorship, and a company protecting its interests. There is, strangely enough, a difference, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I do aplogize for the, "Don't know if you get out much..." comment, that was uncalled for. However, that said, this is an open forum, and, might it be too presumptuous for me to respond to post someone else has made?

I just find it odd that Moore is being praised for his *tough* stance on Bush. Like bashing Bush, or demonstrating/protesting is anything new, or noble. Its been done for YEARS! There is nothing new to it. Jon Stewart, Conan O'Brien, Jay Leno all have been critical and satirical of President Bush at one time or another, (nevermind Al Frakin, Bill Maher, Al Gore, John Kerry, Richard Dean, the list goes on and on).

Anyways, I don't want to "bash you," I don't think thats the right way of doing things. Sorry if my first post came across as a bash, (I wanted it to be more of a friendly jab. )

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:15 PM

HJERMSTED


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:
I just find it odd that Moore is being praised for his *tough* stance on Bush. Like bashing Bush, or demonstrating/protesting is anything new, or noble. Its been done for YEARS! There is nothing new to it. Jon Stewart, Conan O'Brien, Jay Leno all have been critical and satirical of President Bush at one time or another, (nevermind Al Frakin, Bill Maher, Al Gore, John Kerry, Richard Dean, the list goes on and on).


All those mentioned above are comedians or members of the opposing political party (and Browncoats... everyone! ... well maybe not Gore so much). The people who SHOULD be informing us about GW Bush's shady dealings are the Dan Rathers, Peter Jennings and all the so-called 'journalists' of the american corporate media.

Call it censorship, conspiracy, plain old editor's choice or whatever you like... but U.S. mainstream news is dumbed way down for easy consumption and journalists seem to have had their teeth removed.

It is a damned sad thing that I have to read foreign newspapers online or, yes, watch comedy central to get my news. I think Jon Stewart would be the first person to tell you that his show is the 'fake news'.

Somebody PLEASE let the journalists off of their leashes so we can be informed by the real news.

mattro

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:22 PM

BLACKOUTNIGHTS


No, I'm not going to see it because I don't go to the movies to watch newsy documentaries. I use the TV for that.

I have no doubt of the atrocities of Saddam's government in Iraq, and I think it's a good thing that regime was ousted. However, I'm not completely supportive of the process used to justify the war.

Whatever happens, you can bet this thing ain't over by a long shot. If Kerry wins the election, we'll probably see demobilization of the troops. If Bush win, I wonder which middle-east country will be hit next.

We're in this thing for keeps now. Let's keep the military zones away from home.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:23 PM

RADHIL


Quote:
Erm, it is well within the rights of a company to not fund something if they do not wish to be affiliated with it. Forcing a company to do something in the name of "freedom of speech" is, infact, infringing on that companies freedom. I think its more then a little ironic that people can go and bash these companies for doing what they think is good for buisness, or even what they think is, "right."


Entirely true. It's just a little... erm, disconcerting when every corporation seems to have the exact same mindset. Kinda difficult to have free speech when one group has all the megaphones.

Quote:
I just find it odd that Moore is being praised for his *tough* stance on Bush. Like bashing Bush, or demonstrating/protesting is anything new, or noble. Its been done for YEARS! There is nothing new to it. Jon Stewart, Conan O'Brien, Jay Leno all have been critical and satirical of President Bush at one time or another, (nevermind Al Frakin, Bill Maher, Al Gore, John Kerry, Richard Dean, the list goes on and on).


Your first group are all comics. They bash everyone. It's their job.

Your second group are all flaming democrats. They bash Republicans. It's their job.

Moore is a democrat, but with far less stake. And most Bush bashing - up until recent events - has been almost roundly denounced and even squashed as anti-American. An outlook that Bush and Co. have gone to great lengths to establish and maintain. Bush has been bashed for some time, but never by anyone who didn't already have pure bias, and otherwise only in quieter corners to the already convinced.

Or to put it in better perspective - I took a long walk around my town last year, just to see the sights. I passed by two houses with this sign in the window - "Support the Troops - Shoot a Protestor".

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:29 PM

JCOBB


@ HJERMSTED

Browncoats everyone?

I think people really need to define what exactly a Browncoat is, and then WHY these people are Browncoats.

They don't seem to match *my* definition of a browncoat by a longshot.

I just love how you want to know about Bush's shady dealings, but I can't seem to remember the outrage at Clinton's shady dealings, from the left anyways. I mean, Clinton bombing Iraq during the middle of a scandal, and he doesn't get a documentary made after him? Clinton lying under oath to an investigatory panel, where's documentary dogging him for that. Clinton supports the invasion of Bosnia, (and what, pray tell, are you feelings on that?) and we don't hear about the losses there. A simple Google search reveals that chances are we lost more then our governments are telling us. And yet, still, I don't see a huge media scandal and protests over these actions. I have yet to see the Fahrenheit Clinton, but, then again, I doubt we will ever see that.

I can't help but chuckle.

"Or to put it in better perspective - I took a long walk around my town last year, just to see the sights. I passed by two houses with this sign in the window - 'Support the Troops - Shoot a Protestor'."

Yes? And? Thats the great thing about freedom of speech, it goes both ways. I've seen protestors with signs that was covered in blood, that called Bush a Nazi, and all sorts of ridiculous things. I've seen remarkably stupid things on both sides of the spectrum, and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care anymore.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:21 PM

KALATHENA


Quote:
Moore is a democrat, but with far less stake.


Considering that Moore has called the Democrats the "...sorriest excuse for a politcal party..." to several crowded auditoriums, I seriously doubt that he's a member.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:28 PM

RADHIL


Quote:
Yes? And? Thats the great thing about freedom of speech, it goes both ways. I've seen protestors with signs that was covered in blood, that called Bush a Nazi, and all sorts of ridiculous things. I've seen remarkably stupid things on both sides of the spectrum, and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care anymore.


Then you're discussing it and taking sides why?

When you figure that out, explain to the folks with the shotguns that free speech ain't free when your response is "SHUT THE UP OR DIE, FAGGOT!" I have trouble reaching them.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:35 PM

JCOBB


Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:
Quote:
Yes? And? Thats the great thing about freedom of speech, it goes both ways. I've seen protestors with signs that was covered in blood, that called Bush a Nazi, and all sorts of ridiculous things. I've seen remarkably stupid things on both sides of the spectrum, and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care anymore.


Then you're discussing it and taking sides why?

When you figure that out, explain to the folks with the shotguns that free speech ain't free when your response is "SHUT THE UP OR DIE, FAGGOT!" I have trouble reaching them.


Yeah, because as we know, so many protestors have been shot! There have been Kent States EVERYWHERE!

Oh...

Wait...

No they haven't, and there hasn't...

I am discussing it because I can. I don't care whether or not somebody has a sign that says Bush is a baby killer or that protestors should be shot. Extremists will be extremists. It doesn't phase me.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:47 PM

RADHIL


You also haven't seen many protests. Funny how it works both ways.

I didn't want to get into this with you - we seem to be going fairly far afield here. I'll let it be.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:10 PM

HJERMSTED


Quote:
I have yet to see the Fahrenheit Clinton, but, then again, I doubt we will ever see that
.

Didn't we have two full terms of 'Fahrenheit Clinton'? I seem to remember the media and journalists were actually let off the leash re: Clinton and gave him the full vulture treatment. For eight years, Clinton couldn't shit without a microscope coming out of his ass. All this resulting in his impeachment.

In any case, don't assume that because I am against Bush that I am pro-Clinton. Not that it's anyone's business, but I wrote-in Jerry Brown in '92 and voted for Nader in '96 and 2000. I want a REAL liberal to move in to the White House instead of these moderates who don't know how to stand up for anything or to anybody trying to pigeonhole them.

And re: the Browncoat analogy. I would say a Browncoat is a free-thinking freedom fighter opposing a centralized power structure or the pervasive "you're either with us or against us" mentality. I realize in theory (or in the past... whichever) the Republican party is/was the decentralized "state's rights" party but c'mon... the US Patriot Act?! If that ain't an evil Alliance parchment, nothing is! GW's puppet masters wrote that thing.

And, yes, I know both parties (god I hate that "both parties"... we need more diverse parties in Congress!) signed off on that evil document. But now that we know what's in it, let's have a re-vote. It would NEVER pass. It only passed thanks to the presidential Bully Pulpit and the climate of fear permeating the U.S. after 9/11. The quicker we euthanize the Patriot Act, the faster we can become the Land of the Free again.

mattro

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:02 PM

JCOBB


Erm, it was pushed by, as you mentioned, both sides.

And yeah, sure, you can throw around conspiracy theorists, I just think it was bad legislation. It does come with a sunset though, and thats better then nothing.

And, for the record, I think the real "browncoats" aren't extreme liberals, (you think Nader wants the government out of your life?) its the libertarians. They want as minimilist a government as possible with a stronog emphasis on personal responsability, and my party of choice.

(Oh, and I don't think Clinton got more 'bad' press then Bush has. By and large he got away from serious media inquisitions on the things that really mattered. Not his... exploits, in the Oval office.)

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:04 PM

JCOBB


Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:
You also haven't seen many protests. Funny how it works both ways.

I didn't want to get into this with you - we seem to be going fairly far afield here. I'll let it be.


Erm, aren't assumptions grand?

But I digress, we are getting fairly far afield.

(And, to prevent further confusion, I do not consider police forces firing beanbag bullets and tear gas into crowds to get them to disperse people getting "shot," though I suppose technically that is the case.)

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Sure I'll see the film. Why not? It's a free country, isn't it?

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:43 AM

VILAVON

I'm still flying in 2021. How about you?


Is that your entire political stance? "Bush sucks". Are you over twelve?


Vilavon AKA Claude

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 5:03 AM

GHOULMAN


JCOBB ... Highjacking a thread again?

Fuck off asshole. You're right wing opinion has already been made apparent by YOUR numourous posts on this one thread alone. One or two is enough.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you get to shit on every line people post online. That's called being an obnoxious little pisser.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:02 AM

CAOILTE


Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:
Quote:
Originally posted by caoilte:
Quote:
If Michael Moore was SO concerned about free speech, (instead of making a buck) why doesn't he release it free of charge on the internet, or why doesn't he spend a bit of his own wealth to get it out to the "people."


ooooooh. i hate people who say this. It's so hypocritical. Apparently you can't be interested in free speech AND making a buck folks. That's right, only people interested in state oppression AND making a buck allowed beyond this point.


I absolutely never said that. But if he couldn't get a distrubitor, as he earlier claimed, (before getting picked up, of course) and he was so apparently concerned about "getting his message out," (thats why he was pushing for a PG-13 rating on his movie) then there are multiple avenues available to him. I think Moore likes feeling like a victim. He likes thinking that he's the little guy standing up to the big guy (personally I think that title would have to go to Michael Wilson).

Hell, Moore's not a poor peasant, not capable of publishing himself. Its not that difficult for a guy who has as much money as he does.

I am also sorry you hate me for this.

I don't care, I'm still free.


multiple avenues???
There are not multiple avenues if he wants as many people as possible to be able to SEE the film.

You may be prepared to download a movie off the internet (should it be freely distributable) but as Firefly has shown it doesn't help the whole world see it.

And I would hope you'd want a man's films to be distributed the same way regardless of whether he was a millionaire or had no money. It's ignorant to think that just because a man has some money he can form a distribution/production company worth tens of millions of dollars more than he is overnight, and hypocritical to demand it.

shame on you.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:07 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Tallgrrl:

I don't care, I'm still free...


What jcobb means by this is that he can be free and he doesn't care if other people aren't.

Quote:
well, at least for the time being. Seems that there are some people running this country that want to put a stop to that.


Moores film, right. I'm with ya there. I've noticed at least 5 new websites that have sprung up overnight to debunk Moore. Well, Moores facts have panned out from Colombine so he has a great record on facts. Also, the facts disputed seem a little early as the movie isn't even released yet!

Debunking is easy. That's why the Right Wing Movementarians (*chuckle* whatever) will say anything and put up money to debunk one little movie made by a fat guy from Michigan. Shows what cowards the people on the Right Wing are.

Quote:
Actually Michael Moore loves this country very deeply and is appalled, like I am, by the direction its so-called "leaders" are taking it.
If someone you love is acting in a boorish behaviour, don't you tell them? If you love them you do.


VERY eloquently put.

Quote:
There are people who are actually trying to get this movie banned. Let's call them the Movie Nazis. What I want to know is what are they afraid of?


A fat guy from Michigan. lol!

Quote:
Moore isn't telling tales out of school. And he's not lying. (The lying has been done by Bush Incorporated and his cronies.)
Moore's information isn't from "Deep Throat". It's public record, news reports, and stuff that people SHOULD have been paying attention to all along.


This is why the Right Wing Movement is afraid. Since they can't fight back with the truth they just "debunk"... a dirty trick your sure not to hear about on CNN but for the rest of us in the world who aren't stuck with the lieing USA media we get another perspective. The one where people have respect for one another.

Quote:
It's never been a secret about the Bush connections to Saudi oil. It's never been a secret that Bush Jr was a below average student, his way paved by his Daddy and Daddies cronies (most recently the Supreme Court), it's never been a secret that we have a moron in the White House. The world is in on that little secret.
You're free to not see this movie.
I should be free to see it. And I plan to.
If the Powers that Be have nothing to hide, then this movie should have as wide a distribution as the fictional stuff that's in the movieplexes.


"Take me, sir. Take me hard."


BRAVO! Nice post. See how you are attacked for having a merely common sense opinion? It's because you aren't a moron (like GWB) that the Right must attack you and make you feel bad for having a brain. For actually thinking, you will be punished. And in the words of the President of the USA... "you are against us".

But you're obviously not against America. Certainly nor is Moore. But let's keep in mind just how serious this may all become in the years to follow.

This movie is just the beginning.


Oh, and any "debunking" will be met, however it takes time and effort. That's the Right Wing Liars advantage...time. But, the Moore web site has already addressed a few of the more outrageous lies... check it out!
http://www.michaelmoore.com/

Thanks for you post. I hope others aren't afriad to post here for fear of being stalked by someone who only wishes to highjack this thread (an old Net trick). Thanks!

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:09 AM

TRAGICSTORY


Ghoulman,

You seriously are an ass.

If someone wants to rant, reply or type as much as he wants on this thread he is allowed to. Where do you get off swearing at him because he disagrees with you? (Followed by a long post where you cut and paste people's messages you agree with.)

Freedom of speech aplies to everyone, even those you disagree with.

Don't like his opinions? Skip his posts. God knows I'm ignoring your's from now on.





-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:44 AM

SUCCATASH


Quote:
Originally posted by Vilavon:
Is that your entire political stance? "Bush sucks". Are you over twelve?
Are you? Too bad you don't like my opinion. Too bad I didn't write a novel. Get over it.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:41 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
Ghoulman,

You seriously are an ass.

If someone wants to rant, reply or type as much as he wants on this thread he is allowed to. Where do you get off swearing at him because he disagrees with you? (Followed by a long post where you cut and paste people's messages you agree with.)

Freedom of speech aplies to everyone, even those you disagree with.

Don't like his opinions? Skip his posts. God knows I'm ignoring your's from now on.
Highjacking a thread is a common cyber crime on BBS forums newbie. If you don't know the rules online, rtfm pal.

People want to talk about Moore and his movie... but you don't want people to do that it seems. You support a guy who makes post after post to every last person who HE doesn't agree with. A person who has shown consistant rudeness and demonstrates a completely obnoxious manner.

All he has to do is post his opinion... but he isnt' doing that. He's attacking every other persons opinion in an attempt to kill any thread HE doesn't like. That's called "highjacking a thread". RTFM!

And you throw that accusation back at me?

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


JCobb-

Oh wow, so you're a libertarian! You like minimal government and personal responsibility? OK, let's see... how has dubya decreased government inteference in YOUR life???

Well, he's made warrantless searches MUCH easier.

He's working pretty seriously on ridding us of those onerous Miranda rights- I mean, interferences.

He and the Secret Service will allow you to have all the free anti-Bush speech you want- but not on public sidewalks in plain view of the cameras. They have these nice chainlink-fenced, faraway places for ppl like me.

He's made it extremely difficult for you to find out what your government has done/ is doing. Ashcroft instructed staff to stonewall FOIA requests, Cheney claims to have information that he didn't give to the 9/11 Commission, records of past Presidents who approved release have been sealed. Transparency!

He wants to get in bed between consenting adults.

Oh, and between a woman and her doctor.

He's REQUIRED high schools to send lists of graduating seniors to recruitment officers.

He (and his brother and the Supremes) have invalidated voter registrations of tens of thousands of law-abiding citizens.

He's expanded the budget deficit so that not only will WE pay for it, but so will our kids- and maybe their kids too.

Well, hell- but he's made life MUCH easier for the very wealthy and for coporations. THAT should be worth something, right???

So, that must be where your heart REALLY is- with the big corporations. Scratch a Libertarian lightly and you usually find a coporate-kisser underneath.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:38 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Vilavon,

Was that comment directed at me? Why do you presume to know why I would see any movie? Isn't idle curiosity one possible reason?

I go out of my way to be informed in general - to read original reports, papers, laws, and documents, rather than depend on media stylings. Why should I not get informed about this?

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:50 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


I've already seen the footage for this movie. So have you if you watch the news. It's a lot of quotes and political position statements from George Bush and others followed by more quotes and statements that generally refute the first quotes.

Michael Moore took his movie footage from actual video footage broadcasted on tv. He didn't make the president say any lines, so it doesn't seem as though anyone has any reason to get mad at him... unless they are angry that he is showing it at all... because it's painting the Bush administration in an unfavorable light.

Those angry people should be angry at Bush for doing the things he did, not at Mr. Moore for collecting and showcasing the President's actions into a 2-hr media event. Had the President done nothing questionable, would there be anything questionable to show? I can't say as there would.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:14 PM

JCOBB


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
JCobb-


Quote:
Oh wow, so you're a libertarian! You like minimal government and personal responsibility? OK, let's see... how has dubya decreased government inteference in YOUR life???


For the record I do not like Dubya. I did not vote for him. That said, I don't think a propoganda film based on lies and misrepresentation is the "way" to go. Personally I won't be voting for either Bush or Kerry, this coming up election. Will probably do a write in, like I did last election.

Quote:
Well, he's made warrantless searches MUCH easier.


Talking about the Patriot Act? Do you really want to shoulder Bush for the blame for that? I mean, its not like the Democrats had NOTHING to do with it, right?

Quote:
He's made it extremely difficult for you to find out what your government has done/ is doing. Ashcroft instructed staff to stonewall FOIA requests, Cheney claims to have information that he didn't give to the 9/11 Commission, records of past Presidents who approved release have been sealed. Transparency!


Welcome to Washington. Thats what happens there, bud. Forget the president in power, or his political leanings, this is what happens there. It was built on a swamp, and not a whole lot has changed.

Quote:
Oh, and between a woman and her doctor.


And he sees it as murder, I don't know if I disagree with Bush on this one. Like I said, I am a libertarian, I believe in personal accountability. When she had sex, (its PROCREATION FOR PETES SAKE) there was always the chance of her getting pregnant. When she did, she still has rights, but so does the unborn child within her. Action, reaction. She must be ready to accept the consequences of her actions. She can have as much freedom as she likes, but when it starts impeding on the child's rights, (LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness where the unalienable ones IIRC) she loses all rights as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
He (and his brother and the Supremes) have invalidated voter registrations of tens of thousands of law-abiding citizens.


The convicts, the dead 'folks, and perhaps one or two of those legally able to vote. If you think that Bush is the only one abusing or misusing that right you are sadly mistaken.

Quote:

So, that must be where your heart REALLY is- with the big corporations. Scratch a Libertarian lightly and you usually find a coporate-kisser underneath


I love the hatred of the "faceless" corporation. Damn those bastards! Damn the ones that seek to achieve something with their lives, to reach out and grab that American Dream! Damn them from employing Americans, for giving them work, for giving them benefits! Those bastards!

Company's are made up of individuals. Individuals have rights.

Again, I don't know where you get most of the stuff you posted about me, (assumptions?) but I don't appreciate it.

Now, maybe you approve of the leftist agenda? Perhaps you wish to take away my right to keep and bear arms? Perhaps you wish to comprimise national security by putting someone in the Whitehouse that isn't willing to take steps that might not be popular, but that will make a difference, (this isn't a reference to Bush, persay). So, while we are getting off on tangents and making assumptions, you're heart must really lie with the terrorists, and their disrupting our way of life. (Sorry, had to be a right winger there for Ghoulman. HINT *Don't take this seriously*)

Anyways, good to know that Ghoulman shows his true colors. He hates the freedom of speech, he hates those that don't share his views, and he resorts to name calling and presumptions when he can not backup his claims.

I am also sorry that I "hijacked" this thread. I did not realize discussion about the same subject, only from a different perspective was now termed as hijacking. I am also sorry that a comprehensive response to people's post makes me an obnoxious pisser, (or even when I just post links, but you wouldn't know anything about that, right Ghoulman? I mean, you spend hours gathering your facts from sources, and then handtyping exhaustive descriptions of your findings... right?).

As far as my signature, which has apparently caused so much confusion, it is a quote from the credits of Firefly. (As I am sure many of you know.) Read into that and analyze it all you want, it doesn't matter to me.

Quote:
Well, Moores facts have panned out from Colombine so he has a great record on facts. Also, the facts disputed seem a little early as the movie isn't even released yet!


Ahahaha... ahahahahaha... hahahahahahahahahahaah... ahahahahahahahahahahahaha... hahahahahahahahahahaha.. Oh, wow, thanks Ghoulman. I really did need that. Yeah, his "facts" on Columbine really did pan out. And if by that you mean were completely debunked. I mean... Whoah... You are so far gone it isn't even FUNNY. Sorry, I know there are some really good liberals out there, and some really good Democrats, but come on, do you really want a person like Ghoulman speaking for you? I know I don't want some "red neck" speaking for the libertarian party, I am sure the same must apply for you guys.

Quote:
Debunking is easy. That's why the Right Wing Movementarians (*chuckle* whatever) will say anything and put up money to debunk one little movie made by a fat guy from Michigan. Shows what cowards the people on the Right Wing are.


So, let me see if I follow. By those damn dirty right wingers, expressing their 1st ammendment rights, and enganging in an examination of something you obviously think is GOSPEL truth, (I didn't know Jesus Christ was some "fat guy from Michigan") they are suddenly cowards?

Yeah, so, lesson learned. Examining facts and sources presented as truth makes you a coward. Thanks for the morality lesson.

...

You really concern me, Ghoulman, I mean, you honestly do. Its people like you that will lead to the downfall of this country. Polarization, (its the "us or them" mentality) will cause this great nation to fall apart, and no doubt Moore realizes this.

Its sad. It really is.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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