For your contemplation: [quote]The Lethal Injection College Fund Here's one billion dollars. Kill a few people, or help thousands? By Mark Morford, SF G..."/>

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The Lethal Injection College Fund

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 17:39
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Friday, November 13, 2009 11:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


For your contemplation:

Quote:

The Lethal Injection College Fund
Here's one billion dollars. Kill a few people, or help thousands?
By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist

Friday, November 13, 2009


Here's a modestly clever idea that will never come to pass in a thousand years because it's absolutely not the way modern life or America work right now, but it's nevertheless all sorts of delightfully ironic fun to ponder anyway.

I'm reading a bit about how our fine, God-loving nation just executed John Allen Muhammad, aka the Washington D.C. sniper, injected his remorseless flesh with a megadose of sodium pentothal as dozens of people actually chose to sit behind a glass wall and watch him writhe and twitch and die sans any final statement or single sign of penitence or satisfying explanation as to his murderous actions.

If you like, you can read the story right now on this fair site, and then jump to the bottom where you will certainly find a reeking cesspool of some of the most nasty, disturbing anonymous comments from fine, God-fearing Americans, and then proceed calmly to feeling utterly soiled, disgusted and sad about the human race as a whole.

Here's a better idea: Skip that, and instead check out the recent study from the Death Penalty Information Center, which states that after all court costs, fees and various social machinations are factored in, the average death sentence costs each state that supports it about $30 million per inmate, running well into hundreds of millions in wasted taxpayer dollars every year.

I say "wasted" because the study proves that, even from a simple economic perspective, the death penalty is ridiculous and culturally debilitating, and the various states in question could save hundreds of millions a year simply by locking the prisoner up for life.

To be honest, the first idea to occur to me wasn't even all that clever. I initially wondered what would happen if you took, say, 30 of the nastiest, most hateful, eye-for-an-eye death penalty supporters and anonymous commenters in America today, and made them the following offer:

I will hereby give each of you $1 million if you agree that we will not kill this insane, murderous criminal, and instead just let him rot in prison for the rest of his life without a chance of parole. A million bucks, all for you. Or, we kill him, waste the $30 million and you get nothing.

Do you know how many would accept? Of course you do. All of them. Which means, for most, support of the death penalty is no serious moral conviction at all; it's merely an ugly, black hunk of reactionary spittle, the bleak human vengeance synapse writ large, something reptilian and small and just about as far from our often hypocritical concepts of God and forgiveness, compassion and understanding, as you can possibly get.

Thankfully, this admittedly spiteful thought soon passed and quickly led to the wider idea I mentioned at the top of this column. Do you know what $30 million can buy these days? What your average cash-strapped urban playground could do with that kind of money, particularly during a recession?

Here's my simple and semi-obvious idea: what if Washington D.C. had taken the same $30 million, and instead of killing a single remorseless criminal, created upwards of 600 full-ride college scholarships for lower-income or minority students, at 50 grand each.

In other words, for every criminal a given state is seeking to execute -- like, for example, the Fort Hood killer, who they say might well be eligible for the death penalty -- we take the same tens of millions in taxpayer dollars and send hundreds of kids through college instead, kids who otherwise would never have been able to afford it and in fact might've ended up on the streets or in prison.

We'll call it the Lethal Injection College Fund. It shall, by its very existence, do nothing less than completely transform the ugly American revenge impulse into something celebratory and optimistic. We shall transmute a brutal crime into a glimmer of hope and possibility. From dark to light. From excrement, flowers. From our most violent nightmares, a hint of grace. What a thing.

In 2008, the United States executed about 30 males, all by lethal injection, unless they lived in South Carolina, in which case it was electrocution preceded by being forced to stare for two full weeks at a poster of Lindsay Graham. Horrible.

That's nearly $1 billion in taxpayer money wasted last year alone across the U.S. -- mostly in the South -- just to kill a few criminals, just to keep alive a vile and primitive idea that's proven to be not the slightest deterrent to violent crime, and only puts us on par with some of the world's most cruel and sadistic third-world nations. Theoretically, that's 18,000 kids we could've put through college. One dead criminal, or 18,000 educated kids. What a choice.

Did you note the fascinating kicker regarding the Lethal Injection College Fund? The amazing twist? Among those theoretical 18,000, it's a safe bet that, had it not been for the LICF, many would've eventually wound up in prison themselves, a few probably on death row. Translation: One violent criminal saves countless potential future criminals from the same fate. There's a karmic lesson in there somewhere.

Do not misunderstand. I am well aware of the utter absurdity of this idea, not to mention that you could take the same simplistic formula and apply it just about anywhere -- for example, say, flipping the insane cost of a single U.S. military fighter jet (also about $30 million, ironically) into how many homeless puppies could be saved if we used that money for shelters. I realize that the economy simply does not work this way.

Unless it does. Because of course, the death penalty has a special, particularly nasty tang. It is no weapon for peace. It is no advancement of the human experiment. It only serves to devolve, regress, keep us low and brutal and mean.

I would like to report that we are nearing the end of the reactionary bloodlust phase of the American experiment, that, with the Obama-inspired resurgence of positivism and the concomitant lessening of the bogus, pseudo-cowboy American fantasy, the dark energy that seems to welcome the death penalty is lessening, and it feels as if we are about to join the rest of the civilized world in rejecting this inhumane, animalistic practice.

But of course, I can't possibly say such a thing. We are nowhere near that point. Not when 65 percent of Americans still support the death penalty, bullets are sold out across the land, and millions absolutely refuse to evolve past paranoia and fear and vengeance, the ugliest of American cornerstones and the most clenched, spiritually bereft aspects of our national identity.

And now, John Allen Muhammad is dead, and no one anywhere feels the slightest bit better, not really, not if they're honest, not if they truly look their god in the eye and try to justify this dark, spirtually bereft human impulse. And, oh yes, 600 hypothetical kids will now never go to college.

Oh well. It was all just a silly fantasy anyway.








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Friday, November 13, 2009 11:59 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


We could just put two in their heads.

One in the back of the skull, and one behind the right ear.

Cheaper than all this b.s.

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Friday, November 13, 2009 2:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
We could just put two in their heads.

One in the back of the skull, and one behind the right ear.

Cheaper than all this b.s.



Who's this "they" you refer to? Sick people? Criminals? Both?

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Friday, November 13, 2009 2:34 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


How about those judged by a jury of their peers, whose crimes are so hideous that they should never be allowed among the populace again?

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Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA



"He deserves death."

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Firstly - for a fact, The Innocence Project has proven beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt that our so-called "justice" system is incapabale of making that decision without bias or malice.

So, one must take into account that a substantial portion of those folk are indeed, innocent of the crime, yes ?

On the other hand, those without a doubt whatever - Ed Gein, Carl Panzram, etc...

To slay them is a waste.
I prefer a third option, and a wiser use of the money.

In engineering there is a term, TTD - we use this in prosthetics when we're close to a commercial model and the prototype is no longer necessary, and it's prettymuch my specialty.
TTD = "Test To Destruction", which is trial and experimentation without regard to preservation of the unit, right ?

Now in conventional therapy, great pains must be taken to preserve and not further damage the patient, which does limit the amount of trial and error experimentation which can be done, as well as the research possibilities.

With these creepers, not so much, yes ?

So use this opportunity to find out both how they got that way, and how to prevent creating such screwed up folks in the first place - we know most of it already, but we may obtain quite useful information, and being such a lab rat is an ironic form of justice in itself.

It's one thing to mostly know how folks get that way - it's another to prove it utterly and then hold them up as an example of what that mistake can cost us as a people and a society.

Learning THAT lesson is worth the price, teaching it is a benefit beyond value.

-Frem
"You will never know the joys of heaven..."

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:03 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Gandalf was a wise old wizard

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
How about those judged by a jury of their peers, whose crimes are so hideous that they should never be allowed among the populace again?




Shall we bill the jury of their peers for loss and damages when it turns out they were wrong, and sent to death an innocent man?

Fucked up as it is, we HAVE sent innocent people to prison AND to death, for crimes they did not commit. My question to you is, how do you give that back? If they're in prison, you can turn them loose and let them try to recapture some of their lost lives, but how exactly do you pay someone back once you've murdered them under state sanction?

Christ, Wulf, I'd have thought that YOU of all people would be against state-sponsored murder of its citizens. Guess when it comes right down to it, for all your bluster and bullshit, you don't so much care about the state and "tyranny", so long as someone gets killed. Is that about the size of it? Is vengeance your ONLY emotion?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:19 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, Wulf, I know what you're saying - you'd like to see LESS appeals and a streamlined process for the death penalty. Reason I'm arguing it is because even with the seemingly-endless appeals system we've got now, we absolutely have murdered people for crimes they didn't commit. This has nothing to do with "justice" and everything to do with lazy prosecutors and police wanting to up their case closure rates and conviction rates, and hoping they can just rush things through and no one will ever give it a second thought.

As comedian Ron "Tater Salad" White pointed out, here in Texas, they've been trying to cut down on appeals and streamline the process. As he said, "other states are trying to end the death penalty; my state's puttin' in an EXPRESS LANE."

It's funny as a joke, but not so much in reality.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 16, 2009 6:00 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


One of the reasons I never got Batman, was the treatment of the Joker.

Heres a guy, who, on a regular basis, kills dozens of people.

But what do they do? Put him in an insane asylum.
They study him, try to "understand" him.

Then, he just get out and kills more people.

I think I even read a comic where he says, "Y'know Bats, a sane society would just shoot me in the head and be done with it. But here I am. Don't you see the joke?"


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Monday, November 16, 2009 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, the joke is the poor ignorant people who rant and rave about the government's interference in their lives and about taxes who would rather risk being charged, found guilty of and executed for something they didn't commit and/or pay MORE taxes to execute someone who may have been innocent rather than incarcerate that person (or them) for life, which would allow the possibility of errors being fixed and the person (or them) surviving.

Do you grasp that concept? Let's see if I can simplify it for you:

Adding to the weaknesses in our judicial system, TECHNOLOGY has freed a lot of innocent people who were convicted erroneously. What if one of those was you?

It costs more, and the taxpayer foots the bill, to execute a criminal than it does to incarcerate them for life. You're paying that bill, along with the rest of us.

You are always bitching about government interference, and, as Mike said, this is the single biggest government interference ever: If you killed someone under circumstances which were valid or got arrested for a killing you didn't commit, but the police got it wrong/deliberately screwed up and/or the courts furthered the mistake, and you were executed, does that mean you'd still be in favor of the death penalty?

Frem, your argument is contradictory. You yourownself addressed the biggest problem:
Quote:

The Innocence Project has proven beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt that our so-called "justice" system is incapabale of making that decision without bias or malice.

So, one must take into account that a substantial portion of those folk are indeed, innocent of the crime, yes ?

yet you are quite happy to condemn possibly innocent people to horrific treatment. Either you'd be as much against what you suggested as you would against the death penalty, or you believe the judicial system gets it right often enough that those who are convicted wrongly don't matter, eh...?

Me, I'm on the fence about the death penalty and quite happy to stay there the rest of my life. I don't think it's something proven to be efficacious, yet when it comes to people like the Ft. Hood guy, I have no quarrel with it. But ONLY people who are so obviously guilty, and I know even that leaves room for error in SOME cases. And I'm generally in favor of not wasting my taxes just to kill someone.

Has anyone heard the recent report that inmates are finding ways, even by confession, to be put on death row, because they figure they'll have years and years of better treatment (those on death row get extra perks, individual cells, etc.) and probably never get executed? What does that tell you?

To me it says something about both the fact that the judicial system is screwed up AND the fact that on some level we know it is because we try to make people we're going to kill more comfortable than those we're going to incarcerate for life.

As to Texas... or, if you prefer; didn't they just discover an error in a conviction which their governor refuses to investigate? How many others do you think they've missed because of their bloodthirsty desire to execute as many people as possible as fast as possible--maybe they don't mean it that way, but haven't they killed more than any other state (think I heard that once), and I wonder if the Innocence Project has found more errors there than other states? Let's see hands on who wants to trust Texas' judicial system! Now let's see hands on who wants to put their lives in the hands of whoever may be governor of any particular state at any particular time?





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Monday, November 16, 2009 9:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
One of the reasons I never got Batman, was the treatment of the Joker.

Heres a guy, who, on a regular basis, kills dozens of people.

But what do they do? Put him in an insane asylum.
They study him, try to "understand" him.

Then, he just get out and kills more people.

I think I even read a comic where he says, "Y'know Bats, a sane society would just shoot me in the head and be done with it. But here I am. Don't you see the joke?"




You're a complex little ball of anger, aren't you, Wulfie?

Are you REALLY that comfortable letting "the government" (your SWORN ENEMY, remember) decide who lives and dies? Really?




Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 16, 2009 9:07 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


As to Texas... or, if you prefer; didn't they just discover an error in a conviction which their governor refuses to investigate? How many others do you think they've missed because of their bloodthirsty desire to execute as many people as possible as fast as possible--maybe they don't mean it that way, but haven't they killed more than any other state (think I heard that once)...



Niki, I didn't have time on my lunch break to get through your whole post, but this part did jump out at me. As a Texan, let me assure you that yes indeed, there is a very, VERY good chance that Texas just put to death an innocent man. The leading arson expert in the nation says there was no evidence of arson whatsoever in the fire that killed this man's three small children. But we killed him anyway, just in case.

And it wasn't just that Rick "Goodhair" Perry didn't want to investigate - he has ACTIVELY BLOCKED an investigation at every turn, going so far as to fire the investigating panel on the eve of their findings being released, and replacing them with political cronies. It doesn't look good in a re-election campaign to have it come out that you're killing people willy-nilly, whether guilty of anything or not.

And yes, I can also assure you, Texas kills far more people than any other state in the nation. I don't have the figures, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that we execute more people here than the other 49 states combined. Shockingly, our crime rates aren't really that low as a result...



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 16, 2009 9:32 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Shockingly, our crime rates aren't really that low as a result..."

Shockingly, the sky is blue.

Laws, and sentences will NOT stop a criminal.

Or make them think twice.

You want to get in the head of these folks? You have to learn to think only in the moment, and have no sense of responsibility.

Prison is meant to keep these people away from the nice folks, and in extreme cases, to put them down permanently.

Again, if it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt, that you did the crime...then you pay the price.

But yeah, I am against the government controlling it.

Let it be regional, and only by neighborhood/city.

AND, let the victims families have a say in sentencing.



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Monday, November 16, 2009 10:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Shockingly, our crime rates aren't really that low as a result..."

Shockingly, the sky is blue.



So if you concede that the death penalty does no good, what's its point? What's its usefulness, if not as any kind of deterrent?

Quote:


Laws, and sentences will NOT stop a criminal.

Or make them think twice.

You want to get in the head of these folks? You have to learn to think only in the moment, and have no sense of responsibility.



You're saying this is what you WANT your government to do? I thought you WANTED it to have a sense of responsibility! You're contradicting yourself, to the surprise of absolutely no one.

Quote:


Prison is meant to keep these people away from the nice folks, and in extreme cases, to put them down permanently.



So it has nothing to do with rehabilitation or punishment, just getting them away from "the nice folks", eh? Beyond just locking them away, you shouldn't even TRY to do anything with 'em while they're there. Is that your point? If so, you'd better make sure that the only people who go to prison go forever, because they're just going to go back to what they knew beforehand and what they learned in prison, once you let them out.

Quote:


Again, if it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt, that you did the crime...then you pay the price.



That's the rub - all of the innocent people who have been put to death WERE found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt - often by dint of tainted and/or disregarded/disallowed exculpatory evidence that would have either cast that doubt, or proven beyond any doubt that they were in fact innocent. So how do you get "beyond a shadow of a doubt", when in fact you're killing people right now, TODAY, who are in fact innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt? Your system's badly broken, and your solution is to fill it with more bodies. Are you in favor of sending ever-increasing numbers of American soldiers into the meat-grinder that is Afghanistan, too? Will that fix that system?

Quote:


But yeah, I am against the government controlling it.

Let it be regional, and only by neighborhood/city.

AND, let the victims families have a say in sentencing.





Again, you're contradicting yourself. You're against "government" controlling it, but you're FOR "regional, neighborhood/city" control. But aren't neighborhoods and cities part of "the government"? Just so you know, the FEDERAL government doesn't control the death penalty at the moment - it's left to the states. So are you now saying that you're against STATES' rights, too?

See? Every answer just brings up more questions. If there were an EASY solution - such as you always seem to think there is - then don't you think someone would have found it by now? Or are you that much smarter than the founding fathers and everyone else who's ever lived?

I don't HAVE any easy answers, other than to start with NOT having state-sponsored murder in the first place, simply for the one singular reason that you just can't undo it. There's no "taking it back".


Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 16, 2009 11:00 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I don't HAVE any easy answers, other than to start with NOT having state-sponsored murder in the first place, simply for the one singular reason that you just can't undo it. There's no "taking it back"."

Neither do I.

Also, there IS a difference between "murder" and "killing".

Murder applies to the innocent. Only.

Just keep that in mind, when talking about this subject. Because claiming that your lawyer was picking his nose during your trial for killing your kids, and that should allow you to be set free...well....

Most often, these guys are NOT John Coffey from the Green Mile.

So no, I dont have an easy answer. There isnt one.

But, if there is irreconcilable proof that you did the crime?

Better to be over quick.






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Monday, November 16, 2009 11:23 AM

RIVERLOVE


If you watch enough episodes of MSNBC's " Lock-Up" shows, you will come to the conclusion that it's FAR WORSE a sentence to spend life in prison. God forbid, but if it was me in that situation, I'd plunge the needle myself and say thank you. Prison 'aint for human beings.

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Monday, November 16, 2009 11:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Lol

No argument there.

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Monday, November 16, 2009 12:03 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Mike, everything you detailed has made the news. I, too, wouldn't be surprised if your execution rate was as high or higher than the other 49 combined. It's sad. You have my deepest sympathy on being a Texan--for all it's good points, I wouldn't be caught dead there. Besides, from you post I can only imagine you are a teeeeny minority living amongst the more....uh, ignorant? Savage? Screwed-up? Narrow-minded?

The Texans who came here, in business at least, were virtually to a man egocentric, close-minded, boastful of Texas and condescending of everyone else, pushy, loud and pretty, shall we say, "forceful" in their business practices. They did not endear themselves.

There you go, Wulf.
Quote:

You want to get in the head of these folks? You have to learn to think only in the moment, and have no sense of responsibility.
That's you all over, and expresses the entirety of who you are and how you think. YOU want to think in the moment and have no sense of responsiblity, it shows in everything you post, but you don't want anyone ELSE to think in the moment and have no sense of responsibility, especially the government.

And if the idea of a governor having the choice of life or death over you, even if you're innocent and got screwed, isn't good enough for you, how about a city council member or neighbor? That's what you're proposing in making it "regional", "neighborhood/city".

I notice you've made no effort whatsoever to answer my questions, just ignored them and gone straight on to your usual black-and-white "nuke 'em, nuke 'em one and all" mentality. No surprise there.

Uhhh, if there was a difference between killing and murder, and murder is only of the innocent, then how can you know someone who was "murdered" was a true innocent...for example how about a woman who kills her husband while he's raping her or beating her up? Who's the innocent, and wouldn't she be sent to jail/executed?

No doubt you'll ignore those questions just as all the others, which is a shame. There are shades of grey, and they're worth debating.
Your world is too black and white, and I can say pretty reliably it will never change, which will continue to cause THINKING people here to challenge and deride you. Not sure why you get off on it, but apparently you do.




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Monday, November 16, 2009 12:03 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ooops, hit the "update" button twice. Mea culpa.

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Monday, November 16, 2009 12:33 PM

EVILDINOSAUR


I have to agree with riverlove, If I found myself as an innocent man convicted of a crime, I would beg for the death penalty over going to prison

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Monday, November 16, 2009 4:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


But, if there is irreconcilable proof that you did the crime?



I think you used the wrong word there. You want "irreconcilable proof"? Proof that can't be reconciled with the facts? That's your standard for killing?

And I use the word "MURDER" very deliberately, because as you said, it applies to THE INNOCENT. We - our prisons - have MURDERED more than a few innocent people in our name.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 16, 2009 4:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Yes, Mike, everything you detailed has made the news. I, too, wouldn't be surprised if your execution rate was as high or higher than the other 49 combined. It's sad. You have my deepest sympathy on being a Texan--for all it's good points, I wouldn't be caught dead there. Besides, from you post I can only imagine you are a teeeeny minority living amongst the more....uh, ignorant? Savage? Screwed-up? Narrow-minded?



Actually, there's a very good chance you'd be caught dead here.

And yes, I *am* a tiny minority. It's why I'm in Austin, a tiny oasis of blue in a massive red state. :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 16, 2009 7:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Ah, you didn't quite get what I was sayin, Niki.

I meant self-admitted, unrepentant creepers who absolutely glorify in it (Look up Carl Panzram) or folks so totally far and away gone off the deep end (Like Gein) that we could NEVER dare let them out again.

And tis funny, cause others have prettymuch stolen my thunder by addressing the exact issues I would have in several other threads, and Wendy is doin so well handling the rounds here and there that I have started to feel a bit redundant.


-Frem

There always has to be a price.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, I guarantee if there is one thing you're not, it's redundant. You are consistently informing me and widening my horizons.

As to self-admitted criminals, as I said, I'm on the fence about the death penalty, but when it comes to them, I'm not; let'em have it. Goes against the grain with my buddhist beliefs, but there are some things I'm not completely buddhist about.




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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:33 AM

PERFESSERGEE


I sure hope that the investigation eventually comes through, and that Perry gets publicly recognized for the murdering bastard that he is (among other things!). Every time I hear about this one it makes my blood boil, or for that matter,every time that the Innocence Project proves another prisoner innocent after decades in the absolute hell that is out "prison system". I put it in quotation marks because it's really a slow torture system.

And here in California (where we have the largest number of death row occupants in the nation), we spend about as much money on prisons as we spend on ALL of higher education.

Ye gods I wish that, as a society, we could think our way out of a wet paper bag.

Long live the LICF!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


As to Texas... or, if you prefer; didn't they just discover an error in a conviction which their governor refuses to investigate? How many others do you think they've missed because of their bloodthirsty desire to execute as many people as possible as fast as possible--maybe they don't mean it that way, but haven't they killed more than any other state (think I heard that once)...



Niki, I didn't have time on my lunch break to get through your whole post, but this part did jump out at me. As a Texan, let me assure you that yes indeed, there is a very, VERY good chance that Texas just put to death an innocent man. The leading arson expert in the nation says there was no evidence of arson whatsoever in the fire that killed this man's three small children. But we killed him anyway, just in case.

And it wasn't just that Rick "Goodhair" Perry didn't want to investigate - he has ACTIVELY BLOCKED an investigation at every turn, going so far as to fire the investigating panel on the eve of their findings being released, and replacing them with political cronies. It doesn't look good in a re-election campaign to have it come out that you're killing people willy-nilly, whether guilty of anything or not.

And yes, I can also assure you, Texas kills far more people than any other state in the nation. I don't have the figures, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that we execute more people here than the other 49 states combined. Shockingly, our crime rates aren't really that low as a result...



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde



perfessergee

Edited to remove redundancy

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Frem, I guarantee if there is one thing you're not, it's redundant. You are consistently informing me and widening my horizons.

As to self-admitted criminals, as I said, I'm on the fence about the death penalty, but when it comes to them, I'm not; let'em have it. Goes against the grain with my buddhist beliefs, but there are some things I'm not completely buddhist about.




Thanks, Niki - You said that better than I ever could.

When you've got someone who's not only unrepentant about their evil deeds, but proud of them and bragging about them, then by all means, let them suck on the tailpipe of life and be a burden to humanity no more.

But when you've got people on Death Row who steadfastly maintain their innocence, even in the face of death, and you've got evidence that wasn't admitted in their trial, or that was deliberately tainted or covered up, you've got a problem.

Oh, and Frem? I can't imagine a scenario in which you'd be rendered redundant. You're an inspiration, not just to me, but to MANY here, and you're appreciated and needed.


Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Perfesser, I know I'm going to feel like an idiot, but what's the LICF?

Oh, and wish us Texans much luck in ridding ourselves of Rick Perry next November. I'm STILL hoping like crazy that either he or Kay "Bailout" Hutchison will decide to run as a third-party candidate. 'Course, at the rate the Republican party is going, running as a Republican may actually BE running as a third-party candidate.

Maybe we can get a Democrat into Kay's vacant Senate seat, too. It's no likely, but I can hope, right?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:41 PM

PERFESSERGEE


LICF is the Lethal Injection College Fund. Somebody first used the acronym way up in the thread (i.e., not my invention).

And yeah, best of luck in getting rid of Goodhair!

perfesergee

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:11 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Ah, I see the redundancy comment didn't come like I expected either, meh.

I find it very heartening when browsing through a thread, seeing a flaw or idiocy in a point or argument, and as I scroll down, see someone else has already addressed it, in much the manner I would have, and often as not with more tact that I possess about such things.

It does tend to elevate what little faith I have in humanity from a Rosseau-Kropotkin (as opposed to Darwin-Nihilist) viewpoint, and reaffirm to me that there's hope for us yet.

That's even better than discovering the "giant rat" which spooked Wendy was just pamela the possum looking for snacks - some folks put their garbage bags out on the doorstep at night to take to the dumpster as they head off to work in the morning, so they don't forget, but the downside of this is that it encourages the raccoons and possums to come lookin for nibbles.

For a moment there though, I was thinkin we might have a princess bride moment with a rodent of unusual size, but it's all good.

-F

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

...and often as not with more tact that I possess about such things.



Well, that leaves ME out...


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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by perfessergee:
LICF is the Lethal Injection College Fund. Somebody first used the acronym way up in the thread (i.e., not my invention).

And yeah, best of luck in getting rid of Goodhair!

perfesergee



Oooh - Thanks.

And thanks!

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