How did we get so crazy? And, what do we do about it? by SignyM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Follow the money.

Who benefits from all of this ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:29 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
FREM, KWICKO..

This is really in response to another thread (which I can't find) where to two of you were chortling over how bizarre and far-out the right-wing media has gotten. Your strategy for dealing with the phenomenon was to let them go way out on a limb and then ... somehow... saw the limb off.

The problem with that appraoch is that there are a fair number of nut-jobs in the nation already primed to take those "news items" seriously. They are - at best- immune to facts. What seems like total lunacy today becomes gospel tomorrow. In July 2009 28% of Republicans were "birthers"

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/poll-28-of-republican-base-
are-birthers.php?ref=fpblg

by September it was 42%.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/24/birther-poll-42-percent-o_n_298456.h
tml

I thought Glenn Beck would be TOO crazy for anyone to watch, but turns out there are a group of crazies who're even more batshit that HE is. (At least he's making money at it.) Somewhere between 40-50%(!!!) believe in creation, literally, as the Bible describes it. (WULF, if you're reading: This is NOT an example of Americans thinking for themselves!) A significant minority (approx 30%) still think that Saddam had WMD, and similar percetanges believe that Saddam had ties to al-Qaida ties, or was repsonsible for 9/11.

I'm sure at one time Germans didn't take the little man with the funny mustache too seriously either.

These nut-jobs may be funny and stupid, and cling to so-called leaders who are just as nutty and stupid as they are (Beck, Palin et al) but there are an awful lot of them. Even Canada is a bastion of reason compared to the USA. I don't know how we got so collectively crazed, but we need to look at this seriously.

What to do about it ?

Signy , get the doc to adjust your meds again...

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

RUE
ALL parasites like their hosts to be defenseless. Doesn't matter if they're religious leaders, admen, generals, politicians or bankers. It would be a bad day for THEM if peeps woke up and smelled the coffee. But seeing as we can expect all parasites to appreciate defenseless hosts and therefore cannot expect reprieve from the tapeworms in our economy, what do we DO about it?

O2B
Your problem is that you can't take "yes" for an answer, and you wind up attacking someone who even partially agrees with you. And not only that, you attack in the stupidest, most personal way possible because you can't even argue your points cogently. Yes, I agree that the Fed is A problem. I just don't that its the ONLY problem. But if you can't make common cause with someone who partially agrees with you, there's no hope for you and your agenda.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

We lost our honor and our sense of responsibility.

Luckily, we can get those back.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

How?

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:13 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well,

Lose the idea that you are entitled to anything. Teach your children the same.

Do for others, no matter the cost... or the gain.

Never force others to your beliefs.

Live your life as you believe to be the right way.

Keep your opinions to yourself, unless asked. Or if someones life is in danger.

Its not much, but its a start.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:20 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Well,

Lose the idea that you are entitled to anything. Teach your children the same.

So lose the notion that you're "entitled" to own a gun or property, or that you're entitled to privacy, a jury of your peers, a right to face your accusers, any entitlements such as free speech or peacable assembly. Check.

Quote:

Do for others, no matter the cost... or the gain.

Pay your taxes so that others can be helped, instead of you having to drive all the way to New Orleans to help out. Check.

Quote:

Never force others to your beliefs.

Even at gunpoint? Oh, wait - you aren't entitled to have a gun.

Quote:

Live your life as your believe to be the right way.

And don't tell others that your way is "the right way" and there's is the wrong way.

Quote:

Keep your opinions to yourself, unless asked. Or if someones life is in danger.

So you think your opinion can save someone's life if they're in immediate danger? "Stop! I don't think that's right!"

Quote:

Its not much, but its a start.

Well, you're half right. It's not much.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:21 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Btw... heres a movie I just saw. Worth a look. The movie is called RedBelt.

It kind of encompasses what I believe.

... and its got one of the actors from Serenity. So its a win/win.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:50 AM

DREAMTROVE

Wulf, welcome back

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Lol Yeah.

The target is back.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 12:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Societies get all sorts of crazy notions that tend to continue, until they stop working due to internal contradictions - and generally by failing catastrophically.

How does one stop a 370 million-car train ? I'm not sure it can be done, though it seems like it needs to be.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 12:59 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

More like a 100-million-car train wreck! (I subtracted kids and the nominally sane.)

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:13 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

3%

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:16 PM

Our kids are pretty nuts too, actually.

As to the question, I think it's a natural response to the unnatural pressures and stresses of modern society. Then add in boredom, poor diet, and a mostly sedentary lifestyle. Whoop! Crazy. Throw in meds and technology to distract sedate the population to an approximately manageable level, encourage people not not give two shits about other people, and there you go.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:17 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
These nut-jobs may be funny and stupid, and cling to so-called leaders who are just as nutty and stupid as they are (Beck, Palin et al) but there are an awful lot of them. Even Canada is a bastion of reason compared to the USA. I don't know how we got so collectively crazed, but we need to look at this seriously.

Somewhere there's a board (or 3) where righties are asking the same thing about Dems. We know it's them, and they know it's us.

I suggested that Obama being successful at something that is an obvious win for everyone, that would be a step in the right direction, but obviously whatever he tries will be shot down or made to look like a commie plot - health care being an example.

A upswing in the economy would help, gas prices lowered, even if it's just a symbolic win it would be something.

It's like some baser instinct is overriding their thinking, like FEAR. Calm their fears and they may start thinking again.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:17 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Our kids are pretty nuts too, actually.

As to the question, I think it's a natural response to the unnatural pressures and stresses of modern society. Then add in boredom, poor diet, and a mostly sedentary lifestyle. Whoop! Crazy. Throw in meds to sedate the population to an approximately manageable level, encourage people not not give two shits about other people, and there you go."

Yep.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Like how you took out the words "and technology" there Wulf.

"As to the question, I think it's a natural response to the unnatural pressures and stresses of modern society. Then add in boredom, poor diet, and a mostly sedentary lifestyle. Whoop! Crazy. Throw in meds and technology to distract sedate the population to an approximately manageable level, encourage people not not give two shits about other people, and there you go."

Except for the "encourage people not not give two shits about other people" it sounds a lot like developed Europe (England, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Scotland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden) or Canada, or Japan, or Australia, or New Zealand. Unless you think they are all significantly crazy - and I don't - I think it rules out those shared factors.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 2:30 PM

Wulf probably responded before I got that edit in, television (and internet) is definitely an "opiate of the masses."

I think they're crazy, but it's expressed differently or rather, it's better repressed. There are still people who snap in those countries or have riots in response to policy disagreement, same as here.

But good point. NORMALLY, they're able to repress the natural human crazy better for some reason. Better sense of stability, maybe? Family units and divorce rates? Workplace hours and the constant American economic growth conundrum?

Plus even though yes, we do have higher crime rates, we ALSO have a media that disproportionately bombards us with bad news to try to cultivate a culture of fear.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 3:53 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well ... there are places that really ARE better. For example - Canada. Is it Heaven ? No, of course not. But the murder rate really is lower - a LOT lower - as is the violent crime rate. The standard of living (overall) really is higher. The people really are happier. They even really live longer.

For some reason, though, we can conceive of worse places to live (the garbage dumps in the Philippines) but we just can't for the life of us imagine any better. Weird, isn't it ? We keep insisting it's just a different version of our exact same problems. They really ARE miserable just like WE are ! But in reality --- they really are different. Even --- better.

What do people have against being happier ? Healthier ? Safer ? Living longer ? Why do they deny the possibility so vehemently ? Why do they run from it so quickly ?

For the life of me, I can't figure it out.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 4:02 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 4:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's more than that.

It's people who'll believe any damn fool thing that meets their ideological/ emotional needs of the moment, whether that belief is in the iPhone, a 10,000 year-old Sino-Jewish-Nazi-British-Templar-Mayan conspiracy, god, WMD or the power of positive thinking. A population that seems incapable of rational thought (ratio: to weigh one against the other) and which is unmoored from reality.

Don't peeps realize that is a population ripe for fascism?

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 4:31 PM

Actually, a population that believes things to be wildly different from the mainstream tends to be that way because they're not listening to the mainstream. If they're listening to a leader, then yes, you're right, but if you're talking about lone "crazy" individuals, I suspect the paranoia far overcomes any usefulness they have for a fascist regime, because certain kinds of folk constantly question authority.

And now I'm starting to wonder just who it is you're complaining about here. Violent crime is a valid complaint and accusation of cultural insanity. People who think different from you are not. people who don't like and don't trust the government are not.

>_> No offense, but in threads like these, like one time Frem was baiting people to try to make them admit they're all just scared of people, I get burned. On the internet, because no personal harm is likely to come of me, and because emotions and motives are more difficult to determine, I take posts at their face value. You and Rue have kind of set off a paranoia sensor in me that you're actually looking for a specific answer, so... I'm just gonna go now.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 4:57 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Well,

Lose the idea that you are entitled to anything. Teach your children the same.

Especially life, liberty, self determination, personal responsibility, property, happiness, and the fruits of their (and your) labors.

Quote:

Do for others, no matter the cost... or the gain.

Especially do for those who do NOT want or need your help...after all, you know better.

Quote:

Never force others to your beliefs.

Just disregard and punish their beliefs.

Quote:

Live your life as you believe to be the right way.

But don't give that right to anyone else.

Quote:

Keep your opinions to yourself, unless asked. Or if someones life is in danger.

Maybe you should have started with that one...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 5:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Our kids are pretty nuts too, actually.

As to the question, I think it's a natural response to the unnatural pressures and stresses of modern society. Then add in boredom, poor diet, and a mostly sedentary lifestyle. Whoop! Crazy. Throw in meds and technology to distract sedate the population to an approximately manageable level, encourage people not not give two shits about other people, and there you go.

Right in one.

Myself and especially HKCavalier have long held that the primary solution to a saner society is not brutalising, warping and destroying the minds and humanity of our young before they are old enough to value them.

And it's my thought that the primary source of aberrant behavior in public school is just how radically different what is required for acceptance and success in our sociopathic society, from what their natural human instincts are - that collision of messages causes all manner of mental static that can manifest in ways as different as people are.

And instead of understanding and admitting that, we call it a mental disorder, the same way that when a child points out the ugliness of our world from an honest viewpoint we call it a distorted worldview - and we try to condition and medicate it away, and if that don't work... the camps.

And by doing that, for several generations, we have culled out and ultimately destroyed the most humane and decent among us, people who's humanity was too strong to distort or suppress - so we destroyed THEM, because they would not fit into our dystopic dream as productive little servants believing the lies and spinning the hamster wheel to enrich the powers that be.

People talk about what if someone capped Hitler before he came to power - but really, closest example we got to that in history is Aaron Burrs lucky shot...

They never talk about what if we had murdered Ghandi in his youth, strangled the Dali Lama in his crib, tossed Mother Theresa into a youth detention center as a child...

And we *DID* that, people, we took our best, brightest and most humane, and we fucking purged them - and now we're suckin on the bitter harvest that we sowed, is all it is.

But there's hope, there's always hope, every child born is another chance for us not to fuck it up this time, and with WWASPS flailing in their death throes, and inch by inch progress grabbed and ripped from the teeth of the machine, we may yet see a turnaround, provided we do not destroy ourselves in the meantime.

But we should never, ever forget what a terrible thing we did, that most people never even knew about, which cost us so damned much, our own personal Miranda, a mistake we ought not repeat, ever.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 5:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's more than that.

It's people who'll believe any damn fool thing that meets their ideological/ emotional needs of the moment, whether that belief is in the iPhone, a 10,000 year-old Sino-Jewish-Nazi-British-Templar-Mayan conspiracy, god, WMD or the power of positive thinking. A population that seems incapable of rational thought (ratio: to weigh one against the other) and which is unmoored from reality.

Don't peeps realize that is a population ripe for fascism?

By the way, don't look for American fascism to look like Nazi fascism or Mussolini's fascism. When fascism comes (back) to America, it will drape itself in the flag and the eagle, the highway, the television, baseball, apple pie and Chevrolet. Nazism gave rise to the Third Reich and the "master race" because the Germans had myths of a Germanic greatness, a Teutonic superiority. America has its own such myths (ask Wulf!), but they're uniquely American. American fascism won't be red, white, and black like the Nazi banners, uniforms, and flags - it will come dressed all in red, white, and blue. It won't be operas by Wagner and speeches by dictators and military "heroes"; it will be rock-n-roll, hip-hop, reality shows and militaristic radio talkers.

Sound familiar?

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 6:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
In July 2009 28% of Republicans were "birthers"

by September it was 42%.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/24/birther-poll-42-percent-o_n_298456.h
tml

Yeah. the 'birther' stuff is pretty silly...

But...

Also from the Huffingtonpost...

"On the flip side, the poll also finds that 25 percent of Democrats believe that George W. Bush intentionally allowed the September 11th attacks to occur to serve as a catalyst for a war in the Middle East."

So maybe the crazyness isn't one-sided.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 7:42 PM

<_<

Hee hee, yeah, crazy, huh?

>_>

*Hides under rock*

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Wednesday, December 2, 2009 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
In July 2009 28% of Republicans were "birthers"

by September it was 42%.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/24/birther-poll-42-percent-o_n_298456.h
tml

Yeah. the 'birther' stuff is pretty silly...

But...

Also from the Huffingtonpost...

"On the flip side, the poll also finds that 25 percent of Democrats believe that George W. Bush intentionally allowed the September 11th attacks to occur to serve as a catalyst for a war in the Middle East."

So maybe the crazyness isn't one-sided.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Never did buy into that "theory". Mostly because I don't think anyone in the Bush Administration was clever enough to pull it off. They didn't perpetrate 9/11 - they simply co-opted the fear that ran wild in its aftermath, and used it to push forward with their own agenda.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 2:49 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's more than that.

It's people who'll believe any damn fool thing that meets their ideological/ emotional needs of the moment, whether that belief is in the iPhone, a 10,000 year-old Sino-Jewish-Nazi-British-Templar-Mayan conspiracy, god, WMD or the power of positive thinking. A population that seems incapable of rational thought (ratio: to weigh one against the other) and which is unmoored from reality.

Don't peeps realize that is a population ripe for fascism?

Isn't that sentiment just a bit alarmist? I mean didn't the USA just 12 months ago elect an African-American President? Didn't 98% "white" Iowa put Obama in the big leagues and in a position to defeat Hillary? There are fringe elements on both sides of every political and cultural issue. Fortunately, Americans are generally moderate and will reject them in the long run. We may occasionally be fascinated and intrigued by their rhetoric, but they all lack a broad base of support. If we're going to mention fascism as a future threat from current populists, don't we have to be honest and say that some of this is already occuring now with the expansion of the Government into many areas of our personal lives and private business?

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's more than that.

It's people who'll believe any damn fool thing that meets their ideological/ emotional needs of the moment, whether that belief is in the iPhone, a 10,000 year-old Sino-Jewish-Nazi-British-Templar-Mayan conspiracy, god, WMD or the power of positive thinking. A population that seems incapable of rational thought (ratio: to weigh one against the other) and which is unmoored from reality.

Don't peeps realize that is a population ripe for fascism?

Isn't that sentiment just a bit alarmist? I mean didn't the USA just 12 months ago elect an African-American President? Didn't 98% "white" Iowa put Obama in the big leagues and in a position to defeat Hillary? There are fringe elements on both sides of every political and cultural issue. Fortunately, Americans are generally moderate and will reject them in the long run. We may occasionally be fascinated and intrigued by their rhetoric, but they all lack a broad base of support. If we're going to mention fascism as a future threat from current populists, don't we have to be honest and say that some of this is already occuring now with the expansion of the Government into many areas of our personal lives and private business?

Right you are. It IS a bit alarmist, which I think is the idea. Keep people vigilant. Of course, there's the irony that keeping people paranoid and snitching on each other IS one more facet of fascism, so there's that... :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 4:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Actually, a population that believes things to be wildly different from the mainstream tends to be that way because they're not listening to the mainstream. If they're listening to a leader, then yes, you're right, but if you're talking about lone "crazy" individuals, I suspect the paranoia far overcomes any usefulness they have for a fascist regime, because certain kinds of folk constantly question authority.

You have about three statements in there that I find insightful.

The first is about populations that "believe". "Belief" is what happens when you take your reality from a leader, don't ask questions, don't look around, don't think for yourself. Believers are fragile. They have no mental durability to call on if their beliefs wind up dysfunctional, because they're used to getting their reality from the PTB.

The second is about leaders. The peeps I'm thinking about DO take their cues from leaders. You think that non-mainstream believers don't have leaders? What do you think Limbaugh and Beck and Palin are? We used to have a dude here (Auraptor) who believed that Saddam had WMD, the UN authorized our invasion of Iraq, George Bush's tax cuts made Federal revenues go up, and that trickle-down policies made the economy better. It didn't matter how many times we posted the actual tables of Federal revenues, compared GDPs under Clinton and Bush, dragged out David Kay's and Duelfer's reports, or posted the actual UN resolutions and sidebars... the man was immutable to facts because he was a proud dittohead. A true believer who was unwilling- incapable- of looking at actual reality when it contradicted his beliefs. Limbaugh's followers, Palin's followers, Beck's followers have made an art of believing that denial of reality has its own kind of power. Not trying to be one-sided here, but there are more visible examples on the right than on the left.

The third is your assumption about non-mainstream people questioning authority. But non-mainstream can be even MORE rabid followers. Look at PN (who BTW is IMHO organically crazy, not ideologically delusional, but still a good example). He will believe ANYONE who believes as he believes... he will cite the press, the legal establishment, various websites, suspending his disbelief is the "mainstream" when it supports his belief.

I think what I'm seeing are those peeps whose beliefs have been called into question. And now, when (in their minds) anything is possible then anything IS possible. They have no reference to reality, no skills in thinking, no insight. They are leaderless people looking for someone... anyone... to lead them out of their state of fear. (BTW- It doesn't help that the gubmint really DOES scheme and plot against us, and so do corporations.)

Quote:
just who it is you're complaining about here. Violent crime is a valid complaint and accusation of cultural insanity. People who think different from you are not. people who don't like and don't trust the government are not.

It's not people who think different than me who bother me, it's people who don't think at all.

What I would like to see is Americans engaging in discussion. But first, we have to agree that there is only one reality (Not "your reality" and "my reality". I don't HAVE a reality, I have an OPINION and so do you. We are simply trying to discover whose opinion is closer to actuality.) Not shouting insanity at each other (like "death panels", which never existed!) or covering their ears and saying "la-la-la, I can't hear you" or posting endless movies to make emotional appeals because they can't make a THOUGHTFUL argument for their POV.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 4:55 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's not people who think different than me who bother me, it's people who don't think at all.

It's inaccurate to think these people "don't think." Some yes, but a whole party? My brother told me yesterday.... dear God... that he listens to Rush... give me a second...

Point is he's not stupid. Hero, obviously, not stupid, etc...

You hit on it - fear. FEAR. I picked Obama as much for what I liked about him as I did for what I feared McCain would be like.

Fear Media, Violence Media. You can use people's fear (Rush, Beck, Fux) but what's the other side of that? Faith? Fear is NOW, Faith is an IOU

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:17 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"And now I'm starting to wonder just who it is you're complaining about here. Violent crime is a valid complaint and accusation of cultural insanity. People who think different from you are not. people who don't like and don't trust the government are not."

This truly makes no sense to me as a response to my posts.

I look at violence AND happiness, quality of life, life span, infant mortality, education levels - and more - as metrics of a society.

In my view, a society is supposed to be composed of its members for the benefit of its members. A society which measurably benefits its members less (by restricting socially available resources from segments or large percentages) than another society is, I think, less functional.

That people do not expect the society to be there for their mutual benefit is to me a measure of 'craziness'. That they do not take a steady look at its dysfunction and seek to improve it is to me a measure of 'craziness'.

As for not liking or trusting the government, I THINK I have made the case that there are many things I neither like nor trust. Why ? Because they are blatantly not for our mutual benefit, but for the benefit of others (which we are somehow supposed to meagerly share in at some indefinite point in the future).

If you could elucidate your argument, I would appreciate it.

ETA: On second thought, I think I get where you're coming from. When I can formulate a response that speaks your language, I will reply.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It seems to me that peeps should be innoculated against "appeals to emotion". What I see are peeps lost in the wilderness of their own emotions- fear, primarily, but also hope (If I buy this light beers I'll have more fun with less calories and be just like the happy, beautiful people I see on TV), pride, and anger.

This goes back to "what makes us human". Numerous experiments show that the apes do almost as much as we do, mentally: They have a theory of mind, the have a concept of fairness, they communicate, they learn, they use tools, they have abstract thoughts. What they DON'T do is accept the word of another ape over their own experience. That level of abstraction makes it possible for us to build on concepts like gravity, rights, evolution but ALSO makes it possible to pass on concepts of purple dragons, angels, devils...

But when society becomes totally inward-referencing, stops looking at the world and loses its foothold from reality, it risks committing mass suicide like Easter Island.

Madame Geezer had a good idea (which of course will never come about) and that is to give older children courses in rhetoric, reasoning, and the process of asking questions, making predictions and looking to the evidence for validation. The reason why that won't come about, of course, is that NOBODY with any ounce of power wants a thinking population. EMOTIONAL peeps are easy to manipulate. But thinking peeps might stop buying your beer/car/software, or tithing, or working for half pay, or they might start questioning why- exactly- SOME peeps are sitting waaaay up there in the halls of power.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:44 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Here's something that reoccurred to me which fits in with your post:

A functional society requires no beliefs, because the benefits flow inevitably from the structure. People in that society act the way that they do because the benefits of those actions - in happiness, in security, in freedom - are tangible.

A dysfunctional society requires many beliefs to mask the gap between stated aims and results. By definition beliefs are crazy. The more beliefs you have to inculcate (to keep people going along with your society), the crazier your society.

(What percentage of the population would go along with a society where the STATED aim was to keep people striving to benefit a very small minority ? So, you have to foster beliefs - belief that only the ruler can bring back the sun from the underworld, or that heaven has a king and a feudal structure just like on earth, or that the masses can only survive by making a few people very rich etc.)

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 7:21 AM

I think the topic is about why people are theoretically more crazy in America than other places than about general things wrong with the American society. Education, life span, quality of life, I don't really see as a factor in mental health. Infant mortality I suppose causes grief, but I'm not sure that's a mental health issue unless it evolves into fully fledged depression.

While maybe it seemed like previously I was commenting on general ills in society, there's been some studies conducted that indicate minor seeming things like diet and exercise do have a significant impact on mental health.

People may seem to act crazy if confronted with something they strongly dislike or disagree with, they may be overly confrontation, even behaviourally hostile. Like, for example, Tea Party protestors and the health care/town halls things. They may believe rhetoric, proven untrue. Frankly, I don't think they're delusional, I think they don't have access or interest in alternative points of view. So despite all the apparent craziness, I can't CALL it craziness unless there's violence or a symptomatic or diagnosable indication of a mental health problem.

Call them emotional, even over-emotional, fine, and you're right, the reliance upon emotion is an indication of a lack of education and a vulnerability to manipulation. But I don't think that's "crazy." And neither do I necessarily think NO decision should have any basis in emotion or sentimentality. Ethics, for example, are often based upon a FEELING of what is right and what is wrong. Unethical, hurtful behaviour feels repulsive to us, and it should. And wariness, if you can't trust someone (the powers that be) when they're feeding you a line, well, I don't particularly think that's crazy either.

BTW, I consider Glen Beck, Limbaugh, and etc. VERY mainstream. They're just the opposite side of the mainstream you're used to. The opposite bank is still technically part of the stream.

Your complaints about the radioheads I have no argument with. In this way, many of the Tea Party people, as I said, are being manipulated. But this is still not the same thing as crazy, and if you dismiss your opponent as such simply because their perspective and viewpoint seems nonsensical to you, then you may be in danger of drastically underestimating them.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 7:48 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I think SignyM defines crazy as "at best- immune to facts" which I think refers to individuals. My definition is self-destructively dysfunctional, but I tend to refer to society at large. Our arguments do seem to converge on the role of belief as pathology.

Your mileage may vary !

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 7:51 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Limbaugh has been on the radio for decades. His audience hears basically the same things day after day. He did everything he could to see that Obama would not be elected President.

Hannity is on the radio and cable tv. He too has a large and loyal audience. He did everything he could to see that Obama would not get elected.

Beck is relatively new to the conservative/populist arena, so his power of influence is not really known yet.

The point is that none of these people's preachings mattered in the final analysis. Obama was elected President. Their ultimate influence is highly questionable when they failed so miserably to defeat Obama. So relax.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 8:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Dunno if anyone's addressed this, so apologies if I'm redundant. I have a somewhat different view of the crazies this thread was about, the right-wing nutbag deathers, birthers, etc., etc. who live and breathe Fixed News and their ilk. Mind you, I'm not talking about crazies in our society in general, but those who have come to steadfastly believe in things like birtherism, etc.

I agree with many of the points here as to what created/enhanced them, especially our society's various problems. But there's something else, and it was touched on by whoever mentioned "fear".

Crazies have always existed, always will. The 9/11 theory is ridiculous to me, as well, but as far as I knew, it was one of the few crazy theories of the left while Dumbya was in office that caught on to the extent it did. What's happening now is vastly more, more wild theories people are embracing, and more dangerous ones.

So. My belief is that there are several factors OUTSIDE the normal societal problems, which actually may not contribute as much to what this thread was about as to the other, more generic, forms of craziness.

One is that we've had eight years of encouragement for belief in creationism and other fundamentalist beliefs, so that's been built up and more accepted than at other recent times. To kill in the name of anti-abortion beliefs has become accepted by these people, partly because stuff like that was accepted by our government for eight years. Add to that the fact that those beliefs are now on the "out", and you get a clinging to ideology, a refusal to give up beliefs that I think make people extra-fervent in insisting on them. Religion is one of the strongest things people will defend against rational thought.

Second is that we've elected an "other" to the White House...someone vastly outside the norm. This isn't just racism, it's fear of radical change, to me; I'll bet there were extra nutbags running around when our first Catholic Prez (wasn't that Kennedy?) was elected...if it was Kennedy, it was offset to a degree with how America was enamored of him, but I'll bet it was there. Now we fear Muslims...Obama is seen by many as Muslim, so that further's fear of the "other".

Third, yes, racism. Racism at its core is fear, and true racists out there have got to have SO much invested in their belief of African Americans as inferior and their fear of them that it reeely enhances things like the birther movement. They're willing to believe anything and everything, however far out, which invalidates Obama as our leader. Racism exists, nobody in their right mind can deny it, and it's one of the strongest emotions thus easiest to incite to violence and extreme hatred.

Fourth, our feelings about our government. We've become so accustomed to mistrusting our government, partly becuse it's DONE so many things worthy of mistrust, that theories catch hold easier than in the past...the 9/11 one is a prime example. How MANY would have believed fifty years ago that our country would do such a thing? Not that none would, but how many followers would they gather? We've become cynical about our government to a degree I don't think ever seen in our history. How we were lied to about Iraq, torture becoming accepted, our laws being broken left and right, etc., have all contributed. Personally, I am among those who believe the first, and possibly second, election were "stolen". I wonder what the percentage is among the Left (and some on the Right) who hold that belief? That's considered a "crazy conspiracy theory" by those who don't believe.

Fifth, the times we live in. It's no longer a matter of declared wars, or even undeclared ones like Korea, we've actually been attacked on our own soil for the first time (Pearl Harbor doesn't count, it was "far away" and not right in the heart of the country); terrorism is global and we don't know what to expect from one day to the next. It's been growing, and is bigger now than it was during Dumbya's time, simply because it's an extension of the growth that's been going on.

Sixth, the Republican party and the far right. The Republicans Party has glomed onto all the above fears and is using them to the best extent possible. Visceral terms like "Facism", "Socialism", "Marxism", "Hitler", etc., play beautifully into fear of the "other". Utilizing the insanity Fixed News' crazies spout has incrased this hugely, aided by crazies IN the government like Bachman who mirror the things Fixed News' nutbags say. All of their tactics play into the most vulnerable and ignorant among us. After all, as Fogerty said, "I know it's true, I saw it on TV". The more "authority figures" who encourage this kind of thinking, the more it will take hold with the followers who want to believe it anyway. Admittedly Fixed News didn't keep Obama from getting elected, JS, but the question is more how much has it had to do with creating the NUMBER of people believing things that are contrary to logic and reasoning.

That's my theory...many factors at work, primary among them fear, which the Dumbya Administration learned all too well how to use to attain their agenda and make the populace compliant to their destruction of the Constitution, our values, our laws.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:40 AM

Quote:
we've actually been attacked on our own soil for the first time (Pearl Harbor doesn't count, it was "far away" and not right in the heart of the country); terrorism is global and we don't know what to expect from one day to the next. It's been growing, and is bigger now than it was during Dumbya's time, simply because it's an extension of the growth that's been going on.

Um... I'm pretty sure Pearl Harbour caused crazy amounts of fear in the American Public towards people of Japanese descent.

I'm also pretty sure that the War of 1812 was probably the first time we were attacked since we became a nation, unless you count attacks on caucasian settlers by Apache warriors and the Sioux (and settlers, once again, were also xenophobically afraid of them).

But in general, I agree, the crazies have always existed, there's not a greater percentage of them now, they're just reported more (and vilified more). Also? I don't think the crazies are quite so crazy.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:49 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

We may be thinking of different groups of people. I define 'crazy' (not in the clinical sense) as a person whose emotions are driving their facts, rather than the other way around. So, for example, a person who fervently thinks that Hussein had WMDs (all evidence to the contrary) would fit the definition.

How do you define crazy ?
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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

How do you define crazy ?

Believing in meaningless or fanciful bulls**t because you *need* to to have a sense of control & order in your life, or just because other peeps do.
I.E. Organized religion, wacky conspiracy theories, WMD, the end of the world, trust in (government, Limbaugh, "the Left," "The Right," the authorities, the bankers, etc.)...

Personally, I believe in reincarnation of a sort, but it would never dictate who I voted for, what job I got, who I could be friends with... It's my own THEORY. When peeps drop the "I'm right!" mentality on things they cannot prove without distorting FACTS, we'll be a bit less crazy as a world IMO.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:27 AM

The problem I have with your definition is that you could group religious people in there. Now, I'm not religious myself, I'm a scientist and an atheist, but I could care less if 4 billion or so people think there's an invisible man sitting up in the clouds watching us all. It's not my business. Now, if they decide to do something because the invisible man told them to, I might take issue simply because I would most likely disagree with their proposal, but I'm pretty okay if the invisible man tells them not to kill people or steal, you know? I'm not okay if the invisible man tells them to go on a crusade against the infidels, which they have.

In any case, here's 4 billion or so people with a somewhat dubious belief in the face of what I think is monumental evidence of the non-existence of the invisible man, yet I don't think any one of those 4 billion people is any more crazy than I am. They just believe something different than I do.

So I prefer to define crazy not by belief (because anyone could be wrong about something, that doesn't make them crazy or delusional) or emotionalism (necessary part of human nature).

I define crazy as diagnosable mental health conditions.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Then we ARE talking about different groups !

OK - that helps things along !

Here's the thing - what's the difference between being mistaken and being delusional ? To me, being mistaken means having insufficient facts. Once the facts are in you change your mind - right ? But a delusional person will not change their mind not matter how MANY facts are presented.

(I exempt religion, not b/c it's real, but b/c it is socially trained into people as part and parcel of 'what the world is'. It's very difficult for people to go against the overwhelming social consensus.)

(BTW - the evidence of history is that there are many 'facts' that have come ... ... and gone. The earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, they didn't know how destructive the atom bomb would be if dropped on a wooden city, or two. So, many of my 'facts' are temporary, subject to revision as new things come up. This I think is how it should be - anything else veers into the realm of belief, or delusion.)

As for being emotional, I don't think it has or should have too much to do with what one takes to be fact. I think it is a response to the input of reality. But then again, we may be talking about different things, as we regrettably have so often.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The problem I have with your definition is that you could group religious people in there.

I do. There is not one whit's difference between believing in Jeebus and believing in a six-foot friendly rabbit named Harvey. One is an invisible friend and the other is the subject of a funny movie.

So, now that you mention it: I think religion IS the problem.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:48 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
In any case, here's 4 billion or so people with a somewhat dubious belief in the face of what I think is monumental evidence of the non-existence of the invisible man

My definition says they're crazy. Maybe mildly so, but crazy nontheless.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:51 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
me, being mistaken means having insufficient facts. Once the facts are in you change your mind - right ?

Yes.

Quote:
But a delusional person will not change their mind not matter how MANY facts are presented.

That's crazy from where I sit.

Quote:

(I exempt religion, not b/c it's real, but b/c it is socially trained into people as part and parcel of 'what the world is'. It's very difficult for people to go against the overwhelming social consensus.)

You are more charitable than I am.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:54 AM

I think certain beliefs probably will always have insufficient information. Does life begin at birth, or conception? Is there a god? I think there's plenty of evidence that no, there isn't, but someone else would undoubtedly disagree with me. This gets into the realm of philosophy as opposed to facts.

According to wikipedia: A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. Psychiatry defines the term more specifically as a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception.

If someone believes Obama is a bad man who maybe is going to do harm to the nation (either because he's a Democrat or because he's black) based on the sum of their experiences, upbringing, and their opinions, then it's very unlikely they're going to support Obama in any endeavor he undertakes. The belief, "Obama is a bad man," is a matter of perception, and the subsequent, possibly false beliefs based on the initial beliefs are therefore not delusions. They're opinions.

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Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:10 AM