Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
if you dismiss your opponent as such simply because their perspective and viewpoint seems nonsensical to you, then you may be in danger of drastically underestimating them.

---

Quote:

---

And you're right, most "crazies" aren't half as crazy as the world takes em for, a lot of em, they got one piece of reality they cannot deny, but yet cannot force to fit into the tissue of lies, beliefs and distortions our society runs on, and trying to MAKE it fit, without stripping away or impinging on those OTHER, preciously held and treasured assumptions, beliefs and distortions causes folks to get pretty damned screwy in the trying - you can see that in PN on his more reasonable days, often enough.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
[According to wikipedia: A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
generally I find the people who are more crazy tend to have a reason for being that way, from the ax-crazy psycho to the corporate sociopath to the more harmless paranoid schizo.

---

Quote:

---

A belief that is a product of upbringing, political or cultural, is under this definition not a delusion.

---

Quote:

---

So whenever I listen to a belief or an idea from either side, I try to treat everything as potentially valid, because even some of the most WTF wrong spindoctoring often has, if not a grain of truth, then a potentially valid concern at the heart of it.

---

Quote:

---

But a culturally-originated belief ... for example, the belief in S Africa that AIDS is not caused by a virus ... becomes a delusion if strong evidence is repeatedly presented to a person (or people) and they continue to reject the evidence of their senses. (Or the predictive power of a model.)

---

Quote:

---

Not really.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
[
This is South Africa post apartheid. White people come in, say "you have a disease, we are going to try to treat you," but the patients die anyway. Being that they don't trust us, their likely conclusion is we came to harm them, and the instrument of harm is what we're saying will help. Once again unfortunate, but not crazy. More of a PR problem, really.

---

Quote:

---

I don't think this has anything to do with being post aparteid, it's what happens when a commonly held belief (ie HIV is not a virus) becomes seen as fact because so many people are saying it, without there being any real evidence to support it.

---

Quote:

---

This paper compared orthodox AIDS scientists to latter-day Nazi concentration camp doctors and portrayed black people who accepted orthodox AIDS science as "self-repressed" victims of a slave mentality. It described the "HIV/AIDS thesis" as entrenched in "centuries-old white racist beliefs and concepts about Africans".

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

---

I don't think this has anything to do with being post aparteid, it's what happens when a commonly held belief (ie HIV is not a virus) becomes seen as fact because so many people are saying it, without there being any real evidence to support it.

---

From wikipedia:

A small number of activists question the connection between HIV and AIDS, the existence of HIV, or the validity of current treatment methods (even going so far as to claim that the drug therapy itself was the cause of AIDS deaths). Though these claims have been examined and thoroughly rejected by the scientific community, they continue to be promulgated through the Internet and have had a significant political impact. In South Africa, former President Thabo Mbeki's embrace of AIDS denialism resulted in an ineffective governmental response to the AIDS epidemic that has been blamed for hundreds of thousands of AIDS-related deaths.

Also from wikipedia:

Mbeki reiterated his view that HIV was not wholly responsible for AIDS, leading hundreds of delegates to walk out on his speech. Mbeki also sent a letter to a number of world leaders likening the mainstream AIDS research community to supporters of the apartheid regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism#Impact_in_South_Africa

Suspicion --> Mistrust

---

Quote:

---

BTW, your thinking is far too limited whe you say that "every" viewpoint has a "valid" concern. Would yo say that a person who refuses to sail on ship has a valid concern because they're afraid that they might fall off the earth (the earth being flat and all)? Maybe there is a concern there, but it's not necessarily valid, and that's what I'm talking about. I expect everyone to at least make an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Btw... heres a movie I just saw. Worth a look. The movie is called RedBelt.

It kind of encompasses what I believe.

... and its got one of the actors from Serenity. So its a win/win.

---

Quote:

---

And if it is flat things should get smaller, and smaller and smaller the further out they are, but you should STILL be able to see them. But if it is round you will not be able to see over the curve, like not seeing over the top of that hill, and yea, and verily, it is a globe. (The Greeks knew that.)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
Follow the money.

Who benefits from all of this ?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:]

You appear to be confusing truth with validity.

The earth is not flat. But, assuming someone and their family had lived in a cave for enough time that they hadn't heard the earth was round, maybe they might walk out to the ocean shore and look out and say, I can see all the way to the horizon, and boy does this big expanse seem flat! I wonder what's beyond the horizon? Since I can't see beyond the horizon, maybe I don't want to sail out there.

And then we would all laugh at this person and say no, no, look at this globe we have, the world is round, you won't fall off the horizon.

And the person would still think, this doesn't look like what I see.

Still not crazy.

---

Quote:

---

Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
And out pops O2B to prove my point.

Wow, Obama really isn't natural-born American???

How do you account for those birth announcements in the newspaper, O2B? You say they were paid for by Obama's family?? Too bad that paid birth announcements were in the other section of the newspaper, and that the Obama ones were placed in the newspaper by information send directly from the hospital.

Answer THAT, if you can!'

Quote:

---

Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters...

---

So why are you following Orly Taitz, Andy Martin ("a crazy and litigious antisemite"), Jerome Corsi, Alan Keyes, and Philip Berg off a mental cliff? Where is the skepticism which should lead you to question THEIR evidence? Why do you point to every trashy, cobbled-together fake Kenyan birth certificate as if it was the Ten Commadments?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by out2theblack:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
Follow the money.

Who benefits from all of this ?

---

Yep . So why have ScamBO & Company's attorneys spent at least $ 1.7 Million obstucting discovery of his birth certificate and other vital records ?

---

Quote:

---

If that person had lived their life in a cave, surrounded by people who believed the earth was flat, then it would be hard for them to come to terms with the whole globe thing. They're not crazy, but they would still be wrong.

---

Quote:

---

It's part of the authoritarian mindset which today finds its most comfortable home in the right wing (but can find a niche in any ideology.) It's what happens when long-held beliefs are shaken, people are left to their own mental devices (poor sods), and need a leader to take them back to their usual semi-somnolent state.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw, it's kinda funny to see someone who IS such a hard-bitten realist claim there is no reality! I gotta tell you, whenever I want to know how a realist sees things from the other end of the spectrum, I read your posts.

---

Quote:

---

I'd like to think I've become more open-minded and flexible on issue positions, but perhaps I need to work harder on that.

---

Quote:

---

I "claim there is no reality"?....certainly you didn't miss the rest of the line which states "only individual perceptions of reality." Do you not agree with that? It makes sense to me because we definitely do not share many "realities" together.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw, the reason why I said you're a hard-bitten realist is because you don't let your frustrations, hopes, fears and disappointments get in the way of seeing what is. IMHO, calling someone a hard-bitten realist is a compliment.
It's a tough row to hoe and in many ways I believe you are more of a realist than I.

Quote:

---

I'd like to think I've become more open-minded and flexible on issue positions, but perhaps I need to work harder on that.

---

Yes, IMHO you've become more flexible. I hope I have too, but feel that I have probably not.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
Speaking of "it's not that bad" b/c there aren't so many who listen to the whackjobs:


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/11/30/poll-limbaugh-most-inf
luential-conservative-say-americans/

"In the new survey conducted by CBS' "60 Minutes" and Vanity Fair magazine, 26 percent of those sampled identified Limbaugh as the leading conservative, followed by fellow media personality Glenn Beck at 11 percent."

And among republicans, but especially dittoheads, Palin gets high marks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/29/AR2009
112902717.html?hpid=topnews

"In a new Washington Post poll, Palin beats other GOP leaders on two questions: who best represents the party's core values, and who Republicans would vote for if the presidential nomination battle were held today. But she has particular appeal to the loyal followers of Limbaugh and Beck, two of the most popular conservative talk show hosts in the country."

Meanwhile, Palin, as representative of the craziness that are republicans today, thinks birthers have legitimate quiestions.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/sarah_palin/index.html?story=/polit
ics/war_room/2009/12/03/palin_birther

PALIN: "I think it's a fair question, just like I think past associations, past voting records, all of that is fair game."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

---

Quote:

---

PALIN: "I think it's a fair question, just like I think past associations, past voting records, all of that is fair game."

---

Quote:

---

Rue, there's a reason I don't think these people are a big deal: Because they're not a big deal!

I said some time back that Limbaugh was the de facto leader of the GOP, and was roundly criticized for that notion. I stood by it, and still do. So why doesn't it matter? Because the Republican party itself isn't a big deal anymore. Fewer than one in five American voters identify themselves as Republicans today, so telling me that a fourth of them think Limbaugh is their Fearless Dear Leader is essentially telling me that one-fourth of one-fifth of registered voters in this country give a shit what Limbaugh says, or take their cue from him. That works out to five in every hundred registered voters. And telling me that 40% of those same Republicans are birthers is also not a huge concern. Why? Because you're talking about EIGHT PERCENT of the American voting public.

Frankly, telling me that five to eight percent of our country is nuts and is following wrong-headed leaders sounds more than a little underwhelming to me.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
FREM, KWICKO..

This is really in response to another thread (which I can't find) where to two of you were chortling over how bizarre and far-out the right-wing media has gotten. Your strategy for dealing with the phenomenon was to let them go way out on a limb and then ... somehow... saw the limb off.

The problem with that approach is that there are a fair number of nut-jobs in the nation already primed to take those "news items" seriously. They are - at best- immune to facts. What seems like total lunacy today becomes gospel tomorrow. In July 2009 28% of Republicans were "birthers"

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/poll-28-of-republican-base-
are-birthers.php?ref=fpblg

by September it was 42%.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/24/birther-poll-42-percent-o_n_298456.h
tml

I thought Glenn Beck would be TOO crazy for anyone to watch, but turns out there are a group of crazies who're even more batshit that HE is. (At least he's making money at it.) Somewhere between 40-50%(!!!) believe in creation, literally, as the Bible describes it. (WULF, if you're reading: This is NOT an example of Americans thinking for themselves!) A significant minority (approx 30%) still think that Saddam had WMD, and similar percetanges believe that Saddam had ties to al-Qaida ties, or was repsonsible for 9/11.

I'm sure at one time Germans didn't take the little man with the funny mustache too seriously either.

These nut-jobs may be funny and stupid, and cling to so-called leaders who are just as nutty and stupid as they are (Beck, Palin et al) but there are an awful lot of them. Even Canada is a bastion of reason compared to the USA. I don't know how we got so collectively crazed, but we need to look at this seriously.

---

Quote:

---

But have the republicans sold weapons fully to the ENEMY, like mister god send, President Bill Clinton did? The recepts are in the Federal records, so now who's crazy and deranged huh? By the way, the left wants more Gov't involvement in your lives, like President Barack Hussain Obama. So i ask you this, personal liberties GUARENTEED in the Constitution, or giving your freedoms away?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:


Meanwhile, Palin, as representative of the craziness that are republicans today, thinks birthers have legitimate quiestions.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/sarah_palin/index.html?story=/polit
ics/war_room/2009/12/03/palin_birther

PALIN: "I think it's a fair question, just like I think past associations, past voting records, all of that is fair game."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
...They really believe it. How do you get THAT MANY people to insist that a lie is a fact ? To completely ignore individual facts AND the the weight of all of them, and to insist with a complete lack of irony on lunacy ?

It seems like a problem to me. Doesn't it seem like a problem to you ? Is that the kind of thing you want to brush away as a matter of differing opinion ? Or valid concern ?

---