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Originally posted by Kwicko:

Believe it or not, there are those who are HARDER right than the GOP, just as there are those who are harder LEFT than the Democrats.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Citizen, you silly British man...

The Democrats are what pass for a left-wing party *IN AMERICA*. :)

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Originally posted by citizen:

As if there's an America. A country dominated by Far Right Christians who hate science and deny even Evolution being the most technologically advanced super power in the world? Think about it.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I see serious problems underlying our nation which will affect us for decades to come. I don't particularly enjoy thinking about them, OTOH I don't hold my comfort so sacrosanct that I refuse to think about them either.

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It's not "complaining" that bothers you, it's only concerns from the left end of the spectrum.

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But just look at what we can do with pancakes... behold!

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I tend to think problems can be solved.

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As if there's an America. A country dominated by Far Right Christians who hate science and deny even Evolution being the most technologically advanced super power in the world? Think about it.

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:

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Originally posted by citizen:

As if there's an America. A country dominated by Far Right Christians who hate science and deny even Evolution being the most technologically advanced super power in the world? Think about it.

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But just look at what we can do with pancakes... behold!



Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I see serious problems underlying our nation which will affect us for decades to come. I don't particularly enjoy thinking about them, OTOH I don't hold my comfort so sacrosanct that I refuse to think about them either.

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I'm aware there are problems. But looking back at the history of the U.S., there have always been problems, some much worse than the current ones. I also see, looking back, that we're generally able to resolve them. Maybe I'm just more optimistic, based on this. Maybe it's because, when I was growing up, my family had examples of folk who overcame serious financial or health problems and always had a positive attitude. I tend to think problems can be solved.

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It's not "complaining" that bothers you, it's only concerns from the left end of the spectrum.

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Well, you have to admit that most of the "complaining" here on RWED does come from the left end (aside from PN, who isn't on the spectrum at all). When the occasional homophobe or right-to-lifer pops up, I chime right in, although I tend to state my own views and reasons for them rather than attacking.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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But just look at what we can do with pancakes... behold!

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EEWWW!!!!!

Who dreamed up THAT monstrosity???

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I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.

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But I believe that non-violence is infinitely superior to violence, forgiveness is more manly than punishment. Forgiveness adorns a soldier...But abstinence is forgiveness only when there is the power to punish; it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed from a helpless creature....

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The world is not entirely governed by logic. Life itself involves some kind of violence and we have to choose the path of least violence.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:




COME ON!! - It's BACON *IN* MAYONNAISE! Nobody but an American could have thought of something that was at the same time so gross AND so lazy, could they? :)

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So do I. But they're not going to be solved unless people recognize there are problems and do something about them.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So do I. But they're not going to be solved unless people recognize there are problems and do something about them.

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People do recognize them, but continuing to beat folk over the head with them reaches a point of diminishing returns, except for those already in the choir. Being too out there isn't gonna fly in the country at large either. Trying to sell doing away with Capitalism, for example, will not get you any support with small business owners, and probably most of their employees, and will cause them to look at other valid points, which they might otherwise support, with suspicion.

I suspect that too much change too fast makes most folk uncomfortable, and they'd prefer to take more time, rather than do it all in a lump. If you try to push them more than they'll stand, you'll get pushback.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Can people become so broken that truths of how they are being screwed do not "set them free" but instead further demoralize them? Has such a demoralization happened in the United States?...

When people become broken, they cannot act on truths of injustice. Furthermore, when people have become broken, more truths about how they have been victimized can lead to shame about how they have allowed it. And shame, like fear, is one more way we become even more psychologically broken.

U.S. citizens do not actively protest obvious injustices for the same reasons that people cannot leave their abusive spouses: They feel helpless to effect change. The more we don't act, the weaker we get. And ultimately to deal with the painful humiliation over inaction in the face of an oppressor, we move to shut-down mode and use escape strategies such as depression, substance abuse, and other diversions, which further keep us from acting. This is the vicious cycle of all abuse syndromes.
Perhaps the "political genius" of the Bush-Cheney regime was in their full realization that Americans were so broken that the regime could get away with damn near anything. And the more people did nothing about the boot slamming on their faces, the weaker people became....

The U.S. government-corporate partnership has used its share of guns and terror to break Native Americans, labor union organizers, and other dissidents and activists. But today, most U.S. citizens are broken by financial fears. There is potential legal debt if we speak out against a powerful authority, and all kinds of other debt if we do not comply on the job. Young people are broken by college-loan debts and fear of having no health insurance.

The U.S. population is increasingly broken by the social isolation created by corporate-governmental policies. A 2006 American Sociological Review study ("Social Isolation in America: Changes in Core Discussion Networks over Two Decades") reported that, in 2004, 25 percent of Americans did not have a single confidant. (In 1985, 10 percent of Americans reported not having a single confidant.)...

We are also broken by a corporate-government partnership that has rendered most of us out of control when it comes to the basic necessities of life, including our food supply. And we, like many other people in the world, are broken by socializing institutions that alienate us from our basic humanitA long list of school critics from Henry David Thoreau to John Dewey, John Holt, Paul Goodman, Jonathan Kozol, Alfie Kohn, Ivan Illich, and John Taylor Gatto have pointed out that a school is nothing less than a miniature society: what young people experience in schools is the chief means of creating our future society. Schools are routinely places where kids -- through fear -- learn to comply to authorities for whom they often have no respect, and to regurgitate material they often find meaningless. These are great ways of breaking someone.

Today, U.S. colleges and universities have increasingly become places where young people are merely acquiring degree credentials -- badges of compliance for corporate employers -- in exchange for learning to accept bureaucratic domination and enslaving debt.

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www.alternet.org/politics/144529/are_americans_a_broken_people_why_we%
27ve_stopped_fighting_back_against_the_forces_of_oppression?page=entire

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Not to say that there are not admirable things about your society, but the idea that you are somehow special, more privileged, righteous seems to be running its course with a dose of reality.

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People do recognize them

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but continuing to beat folk over the head with them reaches a point of diminishing returns, except for those already in the choir.

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Being too out there isn't gonna fly in the country at large either. Trying to sell doing away with Capitalism, for example, will not get you any support with small business owners, and probably most of their employees, and will cause them to look at other valid points, which they might otherwise support, with suspicion.

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I suspect that too much change too fast makes most folk uncomfortable, and they'd prefer to take more time, rather than do it all in a lump. If you try to push them more than they'll stand, you'll get pushback.

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It just doesn’t work; people aren’t made that way. You can present new ideas, push them to a degree, and things will change. But when you try to FORCE a major change in belief, it just doesn’t work.

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Originally posted by Niki2:

I also disagree, Citizen:

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But then whenever an empires self belief of innate superiority wanes it tends to be all downhill from there.

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I think it’s the opposite. I think it’s partly just that self-belief of superiority which causes stagnation, complacency, and contributes to the failure of the society.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
(how long did it take for people to shift from horse and buggy?)

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Originally posted by SignyM:
No, they don't(recognize problems). No more than previously they recognized that the earth revolved around the sun, or that the earth was round, or that natural selection created a diversity of life.

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The propaganda for the current system is relentless and unending. I don't hear you complaining about that, tho.

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That's because they don't know what capitalism is.

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You commented in another thread about the lack of folks coming to RWED, and wondered why. It's easy. You have a little clique here with one view of how things should be, and anyone who disagrees with any iota of the party line gets, not actual discussion, but insult.

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Again, I don't see a lot of it here in RWED, so don't comment on it. Living near D.C., our local TV runs political ads targeted at legislators quite a bit. Some of the recent ones on health care (on both sides) are pretty bad.

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Or maybe they recognize problems, but not the ones you see. Some folks in the late 19th and early 20th centuries decided that booze was the problem, and we ended up with Prohibition. That turned out well, didn't it? If everyone followed your path (which a lot of folks would consider pretty extreme)and you turned out to be wrong, what then?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, if you're trying to get my blood pressure up, keep trying. Mine has been low all my adult life.

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Originally posted by rue:
Slow efficient heart - good contractility, good emptying. Higher BP - you might be salt sensitive, which is sometimes caused by higher uric acid levels.

On second thought - what's your pulse pressure ? (difference between systolic (higher) - diastolic (lower)) ?

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Originally posted by SignyM:


ETA: But it seems to me that Americans have gotten into a state where they fear change. And this comes from having been told so often- to the point of believing it- that we represent the pinnacle of society. Because after all, if you're the pinnacle, the only way to go is down.

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