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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Thanks, and good idea.

I'm going to change the title. I skipped this thread on the first pass because I assumed it was PN (sorry John, you post more than I have time to read.)

ETA: I also changed to "Afghan" assuming the greater meaning to include the Pashtun of Pakistan and any related populations which might get caught up in this conflict.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
...Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.

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"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks.”
-Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming."
-Dick Cheney, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow", March 29, 2006
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American-Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him. This system is totally in the control of the American Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid down by them."
-Usama Bin Laden, Ummat magazine, September 28, 2001
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/obl_int.htm

Usama Bin Laden's funeral: Egyptian Paper Al-Wafd, Wednesday, December 26, 2001
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.html

"He also had dealings with Omar Sheikh [MI6 born in Britain], the man who murdered Usama Bin Laden."
-Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto (assassinated 6 weeks later), BBC interview by Sir David Frost Knight of the British Empire, 2nd November 2007
youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ
http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/151951
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/28/pakistan.topstories33

"The FBI has issued a BOLO on suspected terrorists driving a white delivery van from New York City to the Mexican border. The suspects are using Israeli passports. They are armed and dangerous."
-Knox County TN Emergency 911 Dispatch, Sept 11, 2001, 11am EST
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm

The first terrorist bombers arrested in USA on 9/11/2001 were Israeli Mossad says Fox News. There were over 500 of them, infiltrating US military bases and all police agencies. They were dressed as Muslims, "dancing in happiness" while watching and videotaping the World Trade Center explode. All were allowed to leave USA, and none were tortured to confess at Gitmo.
youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo
www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

14 Israeli "art students" were living in World Trade Center Towers with forged Construction Passes, connection to Mossad spy ring infiltrating every US military base and police agency in USA, arrested and deported from USA after 9/11/2001:
http://www.rense.com/general87/14_1.htm
youtube.com/watch?v=edxYE9sZ5WI

Israel tried to sink USS Liberty to blame Egypt:
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=uss+liberty
http://www.gtr5.com/

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, no question about it."
—George Bush Jr

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."
-George W Bush, Gridiron Dinner, March 2001

9/11 Inside Job as confessed in Pentagon's Operation Northwoods
http://september911surprise.piratenews.org
www.piratenews.org/911con.html

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

AFGHANISTAN: A WAR OF LIES
The Afghan War’s biggest untruth is, `we’ve got to fight terrorists over there so we don’t have to fight them at home.’ Politicians and generals keep using this canard to justify a war they can’t otherwise explain or justify.
Many North Americans still buy this lie because they believe the 9/11 attacks came directly from the Afghanistan-based al-Qaida and Taliban movements.

Not true. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany and Spain, and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel’s repression of the Palestinians.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
agree with Frem here. I wasn't dictating, I as simply saying: a 5 page rant about why I'm wrong? I'm not going to read it. I don't have the time, and currently, from work, my stress level is *way* too high to deal with that.

If I make an error, or we disagree, kindly, just point it out concisely.

Thanks


Oh, and nice short posts.


Notice that PN just wrote a book. Esp. when you add watching all the videos, and reading all the links.


So, Nik, do you? When John posts all those 18 min vids and links to 8 page stories, do you watch, do you read it all, do you even read his posts? Or do you just hit page down 6 times in a row?

If it's the latter, then you get the point. it's a rant, doesn't matter about what.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

AFGHANISTAN: A WAR OF LIES
The Afghan War’s biggest untruth is, `we’ve got to fight terrorists over there so we don’t have to fight them at home.’ Politicians and generals keep using this canard to justify a war they can’t otherwise explain or justify.
Many North Americans still buy this lie because they believe the 9/11 attacks came directly from the Afghanistan-based al-Qaida and Taliban movements.

Not true. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany and Spain, and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel’s repression of the Palestinians.

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We never were too concerned with the Taliban atrocities against civilians in Afghanistan until after 911. I think we're there for one reason only; to have a contingency force nearby in case the Taliban get close to the Pakistani nukes if that government collapses.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Hee, hee, hee...the one thing you point out as different about the FLDS was arranged marriages. Ooops; in Afghanistan when I was there, and no doubt still in the rural areas, marriages weren't just "arranged", potential wives were PAID FOR in "dowry", and sometimes it was like an auction, brides being offered numerous fees by several potential husbands, as I described in my post. That the old man upped his price because he thought I was the potential bride is an example.

Also, young women are forced into marriage virtually always with older men, and have no say whatsoever in who they marry. NOT any longer the way things are done in urban Afghanistan (or at least not as much, I hope!), but previously, and I'd bet still in the villages...

Remember too that until recently women had no rights whatsoever and were forced to wear that horrid head-to-toe chadri in public, and could never be seen by any male except relatives. No, treatment of women under Islamic law, especially as interpreted by the Taliban, is far more despicable than the FLDS ever dreamed of.

I was sad to see the comparison, but recognized it. (By the way, I was a "dunked" Mormon in my teens--dropped it in shock when I discovered their racist policies!) The one thing different that I know of with Afghanistan is that the leader doesn't take advantage of the women in the same way as I've read about in cults. Women are chattel, for sure, but the concept of multiple wives and incest wasn't something I heard about from anyone I know, or I saw around me back then.

And I THINK the tenants of Islam are more, uh, "respectable" if you will, in that they don't preach the same kind of insanity as many cults, or teachings put forth by one crazy person; Islam is interpreted differently, admittedly, but the basic teachings of Islam are at the root everywhere.

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I think something we need to remember is you cannot effect social change at gunpoint. It only lends credibility to anyone who is going to oppose you.

Now, if Afghanistan grows an economy, one that requires dealing with the outside world... you can do things like, " if you want this trade deal, lets talk about human rights, or religious freedom, or womens rights "

Having a foreign military, particularly one that isn't going to stay there for decades to come ( I hope ) try to dictate change like that is crazy.

The US is empowering the extremists, and my prediction... within two years after the inevitable pullout ANY government there will fall, irregardless of whatever money or aid gets pumped in. There was a window of opportunity, that ball was dropped, and now ALL of it is for nothing. Once credibility was lost, that was it.




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I think something we need to remember is you cannot effect social change at gunpoint.

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Aloud Pritchard said, "Well, I might disagree on moral grounds if I thought it would work, ah, madam. But since I never have known it to work in circumstances like yours on Tethys, I'll pretend to be a practical man and disagree on practical terms instead."

The tall woman paused in mid-stride as her brain correlated the words her ears had heard a moment before. She looked at the man who lounged at ease, smiling at her. "Major—" she began in a tone more diffident than that of her angry assurance an instant previous.

"Please," said Danny Pritchard. "That was Alois' little joke, I'm sure, when he announced I was coming. Mister Pritchard. Or Danny, which I'd prefer. But I'm not a soldier anymore."

Marilee sat down with the abruptness of a gun returning to battery. She laughed as she looked out the window through which she could see nothing but sky from her present low angle. "Well," she said, "Danny, I suppose you'd better explain that. I hadn't expected to hear from a mercenary that force doesn't accomplish anything."

"Ex-mercenary," Pritchard corrected. The smile was back. "And force accomplishes a lot of things. They just aren't the ones you want here. Bring in the Slammers and we kick ass for as long as you pay us. Six months, a year. And we kick ass even if the other side brings in mercs of their own—which they'll do—but that's not a problem, not if you've got us." Unit pride lasted even after the unit's work became a matter of distaste. Pride beamed now from Danny Pritchard's face, and his hand caressed a tank that only his mind could see.

"So," the man went on. He got up without thinking about the action because he was focused on plans, on possibilities. "There's what? Three hundred thousand people on Tethys?"

Marilee's eyes narrowed. "On the Council Islands, about. There's a lot more in little holdings on the unclaimed islands, but I don't think anyone can be sure of numbers."

"So," Pritchard repeated. The word was his equivalent of the Enter key when his mind was computing possibilities. "You want to kill fifty kay? Fifty thousand people, let's remember they're people for the moment."

"I don't want to kill anybody!" the woman snapped. She swung abruptly to her feet again. Her boots rapped on the inlaid floor over which her visitor's heels had glided unheard. "I don't even want to kill Bev Dyson. I grew up with him, after all, I . . . maybe he did kill my husband. But I don't want to know that for sure. And I don't want him killed."

"You see," said Danny Pritchard, as if he had not heard his companion expose a part of herself that she had not known existed, "if we go in quick and dirty, the only way that has a prayer of working is if we get them all. If we get everybody who opposes you, everybody related to them, everybody who called them master—everybody."

"They aren't all dangerous!" Marilee shouted. She turned to the wall of trophies and went on in nearly as loud a voice. "They aren't any of them dangerous, except maybe a few. What are you talking about?" She spun back to Pritchard.

The ex-soldier nodded in agreement. "They're not dangerous now, but they will be after the killing starts. Believe me—" he raised a hand to forestall another protest— "I've seen it often enough. Not all of them, but one in ten, one in a hundred. One in a thousand's enough when he blasts your car down over the ocean a year from now. You'll see. It changes people, the killing does. Once it starts, there's no way to stop it but all the way to the end. If you figure to still live here on Tethys."

"M—Danny!" the woman said. "I told you, I don't want killing. Why do you keep saying that?"

"What do you think the Slammers do, milady?" asked Danny Pritchard. His grin was wide as a demon's, as cruel as the muzzle of the guns he remembered using so well. "Work magic? We kill, and we're good at it, bloody good. You call the Slammers in to solve your problems here and you'll be able to cover the Port with the corpses. I guarantee it. I've done it, milady. In my time."

He was still grinning. Marilee Slade gasped and turned away. The blast-scarred skull of a knife-jaw was on the wall behind her. The yellowing skull was two meters along the line of the teeth, a record even for the days of the Settlement when the creature had savaged a guard tower and three men. For a moment, the knife-jaw looked less ruthless than did the man who had seemed so mild until he began describing options.

"All right, Mister Pritchard," Marilee said to her clenched hands. "My son says we're better off letting the law take its course, even when that course is against us. I—I don't think I believe that. I know Tom's death wasn't, wasn't chance. But I didn't mean to bring in an army, either, even without what you just said. I suppose we'll let Bev have his way, then, and—hope for the best."

She shook herself. "I'm sorry," she said. "I didn't mean to be ungracious. Will you have refreshments? A stim cone?" She stepped toward the refrigerated cart resting against a sidewall.

"No, I'm fine," said Danny Pritchard. His face had loosened from its rictus. Now he sat again in the chair from which thought had propelled him. "You see," he continued mildly, "using the Slammers on your problem is like settling a tank on a nut to crack it. I . . . I'm not the sort to say, roll over and play dead to injustice. Even when injustice has the law behind it. You were hoping Don would come home. It's for him—and for me and for the Colonel, there's a lot of us who owe Don—it's for him I came here. We pay our debts.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Having a foreign military, particularly one that isn't going to stay there for decades to come ( I hope ) try to dictate change like that is crazy.

The US is empowering the extremists, and my prediction... within two years after the inevitable pullout ANY government there will fall, irregardless of whatever money or aid gets pumped in. There was a window of opportunity, that ball was dropped, and now ALL of it is for nothing. Once credibility was lost, that was it.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)

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Originally posted by Niki2:

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If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?

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Gawd, OTB, you’re a real asshole, aren’t you?? I quite clearly said I don’t know all the answers, and I wasn’t asking any questions…answered Byte’s question to the best of my ability, and started this out by saying “Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. What does any of that have to do with your asinine statement? Nothing, obviously. What thread were YOU reading? You’re strange. And nasty.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)

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"FAIL" is the ultimate endgoal, yes - but in the meantime, we're supposed to put up a good show of trying our very hardest to NOT fail. We're not supposed to "win", mind you (because nobody can even begin to describe what a "win" would consist of, other than mealy-mouthed mumblings of soundbites and catchphrases of the kind Wulfie is so damned fond of - things like "freedom" and "democracy") - we're just not supposed to fail YET. Push it off 'til "the next guy" gets the job, and call it a success in the interim. And Dubya actually laid that out in plain doublespeak Ingsoc...

Mike

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Originally posted by Niki2:
OTB, please don't change the title of the thread. If you have something to say, say it IN the thread.

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Originally posted by out2theblack:
Start respecting others

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Personal attacks on any side are uncalled for. I think we all agreed on that. I see a lot of it here.

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Originally posted by Niki2:


And thank you for your kind words, Citizen. But to say I have been nothing but respectful is something I DEFINITELY don't deserve; you've experienced my lack of respect yourself, so you know that's not true. I fail at self-control far more than I succeed, I'm afraid; tho' I do TRY to be mindful and not let my feelings deprive the conversation of respect.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
This is why no one listens to you even when you have a point, Out2B.

Being an ass because you can be an ass buys ya nothin, and earning the respect of others is key in getting them to listen to you - plus it's a two way street, you want some, you'd damn well better be giving some, and you ain't.

So where does that leave you ?

-F

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Originally posted by out2theblack:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Thanks, and good idea.

I'm going to change the title. I skipped this thread on the first pass because I assumed it was PN (sorry John, you post more than I have time to read.)

ETA: I also changed to "Afghan" assuming the greater meaning to include the Pashtun of Pakistan and any related populations which might get caught up in this conflict.

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For Folk permaybehaps wondering about the motive for this present war in AFbamaScam , check out this google search result :

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cheney+pipeline+Afghanistan&sourceid=ie
7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

Interesting reading , should hold Folk for a few ticks...Poly-ticks...Many bloodsuckers...

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Originally posted by out2theblack:

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Originally posted by Niki2:
...Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.

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I happen to agree with more than 75% of DT's conclusions in this matter...

Isn't the point of discussion to educate and inform ?

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/can-the-americans-win-a-l
and-war-in-afghanistan-670448.html

Sunday, 23 September 2001

' "We do deserts, we don't do mountains," said Colin Powell when he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as the Balkans' conflict erupted. '

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

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