So they passed the bloody thing. Shame on them! by Niki2

*Hands out wooden shoes*

You know the drill.

-F

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Monday, December 21, 2009 3:21 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Was hoping for a discussion of the issue (the vote last night anyway), but no such luck, apparently. Oh, well, I tried. My work is done for the day. Good evening all (or at least, most).

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Monday, December 21, 2009 4:11 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

What will be the penalty for not having insurance?

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Monday, December 21, 2009 4:30 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
What will be the penalty for not having insurance?

They sick the IRS on you. ('cause, you know, the IRS is a knowledgeable authority on matters of health care and the well-being of us citizens.)

You'll pay, one way or another.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Monday, December 21, 2009 5:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm not liking the way this is going, but if there IS a bright spot on this backbirth of a bill, it's that now it has to go into a conference committee where the House and Senate bills get reconciled into a single bill which will go back to both houses for a full vote. MAYBE there will be some way to hammer out some better options (the House bill has a public option and no mandate, if I remember correctly).

In the meantime, I doubt I'll be supporting many (or *any*)
Democrats in the mid-terms. Hell, you give 'em an overwhelming majority and a clear mandate, and STILL they manage to fuck it all to hell. So what's the point of letting them keep control of either house?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: a rubber-stamp Congress does no citizen any good. Better to have a gridlock between Congress and the Executive; anything vital WILL find a way through, and the useless shit and the huge pork bills die a much-deserved and bitter death.

The sweet irony of all this is that the Democrats treated this bill with kid gloves, afraid to get their hands dirty lest they lose reelection. And at the rate it's going, they are all but guaranteed to lose reelection, lose their majorities, and lose their power.

Should have played it like they had nothing to lose, instead of like they had everything to lose. If I were going to be voted out of office anyway, I'd rather have it be for doing the RIGHT thing, instead of for doing nothing at all.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, December 21, 2009 6:07 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
What will be the penalty for not having insurance?

For individuals:
The Senate bill sets it at the greater of $750.00 or 2% of income. The House bill sets it at 2.5% of income by 2016.

For employers:

The House bill:
Employers must pay 65% of family premiums or pay a penalty based on payroll. Small businesses with less than $500,000 on payroll are exempt and payrolls up to $750,000 would have a reduced contribution.

The Senate bill:
Does not require employers to offer health insurance. However, if even one employee receives a subsidy through the new exchanges, firms with more than 50 employees would have to pay a fine equal to $750 for every person on their payroll.

The Washington Post has a nice interactive comparison at this link. You may have to log in to read it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/health/compare-hea
lth-plans-2009/

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, December 21, 2009 6:52 PM

Umm, I wasn't kiddin about the wooden shoes thing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabotage
I guess my humor was more estoric than usual.

They got barely, just by a sliver, enough votes to do this, and here's the thing folks, when you go trading political favors over a long period of time, it's a lot like playing poker - if you're smart about it you keep some of that roll back for when it REALLY matters, you see ?

Imma bet I can pull two of them votes by calling in some markers, one of em for right damned sure, and enough folk in the right place could pull a couple more - beggin buys you nothin, politically the only way to call a politician to heel is to put a big "gun" (blackmail, secrets, funding sources, etc) to their head and start pulling the trigger back, it's a dirty, ugly business all the way around, always has been - if you wanna get anythin done, you gotta be willing to get down in the mud and wrestle with the gators, period.

Plus, you got the other end, jackass stubborn nimrods who oppose the thing for no better reason than petulant partisanship and obstructionist stonewalling, and you get behind those guys and start cheering them on, ENCOURAGING them, rah-rah hoorah, rile them up and make them think they have support so they'll take the nosedive - you just don't show them the cliff you're inciting them to charge off...

And so you sink it, and the corpo-friendly mainstream media starts with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, whining and moaning about how reason has failed, yadda freakin yadda ad nauseam, in between the bread and circuses of whatever celebrity transgression they're trying to desperately to distract us with this time around as they flail for a relevance all but lost to them now that the internet has broken their dominion on the public mind...

And you point the finger straight at the obstructionist jackasses who stuck their neck out at your encouragement as someone to *blame* for this mess, and smile as the axe comes down with a bang - and if you're SMART, follow up with the boot and crush them good and proper, make *sure* it's the LAST time those bastards get any chance to fuck us, don't make the Nixon mistake and let em come around again and again and ruin our damn country any more - am I suggesting a witch hunt and a purge ?

Why yes, and I know it's unfair, and I know it's ugly, but seriously, just think how bad the damage is gonna be the next time horrors are glossed over and these asshats climb to power again, like a freakin cancer that won't stay in remission, and every time we never fully recover from the damage - it's them or us, and I plan to do my damned best to make sure it's us, capisce ?

And you let that run it's course a while, but pick your time, make sure the job is all but done, and then pick some abuse or collective thereof on behalf of the democrats and go all Eddie Murrow on em, pull the goddam rug right out from under em midstream and roll em up in it, with a hefty helping of "A Pox on Both Your Houses!" and shove THEM over the cliff with the fucking Republicans - you do that right, the media is gonna see which way the wind is blowing and start cheering you on - just like they did Obama, rah rah please forget the crimes and abuses we committed, rah rah, we welcome our new overlord, rah rah, hoorah...

Worked, too, didn't it ?
Obama never did call them to heel for their abuses, nor the telecom companies, or the rest of the folk who were so damn quick to suck up to his administration in hopes of their misdeeds being forgotten - and a wise maneuver would be to play to that, parley it into shoving public support FIRMLY behind the idea of shoving both parties onto the scrapheap of history...

We just don't tell em we're NOT the forgiving and forgetting type till we get enough seats to drop the hammer and initiate a civilian review in the spirit of the Church and Pike committees, only including corporate america as well as the alphabet goons, and THIS time, we finish the damn job.

If enough people play this the right way, it could be the grave of both parties - I don't hold out hope for that since I don't think the general population has been knocked far enough out of their comfort zone quite yet, but damn me if imma not take the chance on filling an inside straight when the pot looks so delicious.

-Frem
PROTip: Do not play cards with Frem

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Monday, December 21, 2009 9:41 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm furious with Boxer...for one of the few times she's been in office, I don't just disagree with her, I'm PISSED. The e-mail has already gone out saying so. I won't vote for her next time around; I won't vote for her opposition, as it's even worse, but I won't support her.

No public option

Individual mandate

It don't get no worse than that... Sadly, I predicted this result about a month ago, seeing how the debate was going.
The only trouble with not voting for a Democrat is that there are folks out there who will vote for the Republican. Look out that what you get by not voting for her, or not voting at all, is even worse. And as for any Third party candidate, that's a dope dream held by too many folks around here-- no matter who he is, Ross Perot, John Anderson, George Wallace, Ron Paul, Joe the Plumber, Ralph Nader-- he ain't gonna get enough votes to carry even one state. A vote for a third party candidate will only dilute the vote and play into the hands of the baddies. It may come down to a 51/49 decision, but yer still gonna hafta vote for the lesser of two evils.

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:18 AM

Blue Dog Democrats?
Moderate Democrats?
Fiscally conservative Democrats?

What a pathetic joke! They've shown their true colors, and they are WHORISH colors.

In the end, they all line up in kamikaze fashion to take the blessed sacrament from Pelosi & Reid. Some giveth and some taketh. Now they're all heroes, right? They've saved America, right? Congratulations to the Democrats! You have your wonderful Healthcare Bill almost ready for Obama to sign. How appropriate that it's occuring during Christmas. What better present to Americans than higher taxes set to take place immediately in January for benefits that don't start for 4 years! Now that's what I call some real fuzzy math!... And HISTORIC, of course!

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:56 AM

Well, some progress this morning, markers called in, and stuff, but never one to do a job halfway, let's not forget THIS little tidbit to slam those Democrat pansies over the head with neither...

Senate Dems Protect Big Pharma
http://washingtonindependent.com/71047/senate-dems-protect-big-pharma

"In a big win for the pharmaceutical industry, the Senate on Tuesday killed legislation that would have made it easier for Americans to buy their prescription drugs from abroad, where prices are generally much cheaper."

I note that because of the rapidly changing and complex legal hoopla and bullshit of the Medicare drug plan, and how they cut and paste almost at whim, the nice old lady at one end of site three has been asking me to try and explain it to her in a way that makes sense cause every couple months they send another HUGE booklet with all the minutae in it, and they keep rapidly changing her plan from one provider to another to the point where she isn't sure which of the six cards she has actually works right now...

I sat there and tallied it, last night after work, they've spent four times as much on printing and postage, not including administrative costs, as they have on actually filling her prescriptions.

That's just fucking madness - it's the same model, they take the money (taxes), count it, sort it, spend it and account for it, and pay all the people to do so, wasting almost all of it, and then throw folk back the gnawed down bone after all the useless trough-trotters that idiotic scheme employs have gnawed it down to nothin like it's some fucking act of benevolence ?

Bullshit, if they didn't take it in the first place, or take so much of it and piss it down a hole to feed their administrative costs (and all their employees of course get health care far superior to what they're administrating, lets not forget that, cause that hasta be paid for too!) there wouldn't be such a goddamn problem in the first place.

And what with the Canadians now being total dicks at the border cause of that whole olympics mess, now it once again falls to smugglers to provide - some of the folk who mainly smuggle "hard" drugs have lately been opening up very lucrative lines smuggling tobacco and common prescription drugs for the elderly - what's it say about our health care when gramma has to go see the fuckin pusherman in order to get her blood pressure meds cause she cannot afford Big Pharmas prices for that stuff ?

Oh, and just so you know, Medicare isn't all it's cracked up to be as well, since they can and will deny even medically necessary care - it was in fact a medicare doctor who I threw up against the wall and threatened after the accident when he told me in no uncertain terms he was well aware of my problem - that being the friggin pins holding my leg together at all had snapped off and the whole damn leg was crumpled up and wrapped in an ace bandage since all the bones were shattered and twisted, on top of serious internal infections, a bad case of malnutrition and two minor knife wounds - and still had absolutely ZERO intention of writing me the damn referral, at which point I jacked him into the wall one handed and explained in explicit, medical detail just what was ABOUT to happen to him, which changed his outlook considerably, especially since I didn't let GO of him till he wrote it and faxed it to Corvera, who was a more reasonable sorta dude.

Medicare’s Refusal of Medical Claims Continues to Outpace Private Rate
http://www.independent.org/blog/?p=4459

And don't EVEN get me started on the Medicare HMOs like THC, who I got implicated by stealing their own documentation and *proving* they issued medications by cost rather than actual use or effectiveness - in fact I still have those documents somewhere around here.

I'm very tempted, angry as I am, to provide some graphic visual evidence of the real nightmare inspiring reasons why I spend so much time in a wheelchair, damn near all of it caused by medical miscare and deliberate neglect, some at the hands of medicare and helped along by those bastards at Allstate Insurance being allowed to break the law regarding PIP coverage with impunity...

I have ZERO mercy for the fuckers, none whatever.

Oh, and while I am typing this, I am also on the phone winding up the AFL-CIO, SEIU, IWW and all my buddies in organized labor to throw their hats in the ring and shoot this piece of shit giveaway to the insurance companies down.

Yeah, Medicare sucks, but having been mistreated and ripped off far worse by paid providers as well, I think step one is cutting those rapacious sumbitches out of the picture to where they gotta beg, plead, and ACTUALLY OFFER THE SERVICES YOU'RE PAYING FOR, in order to be viable.

Shit, they oughta do the same thing to auto insurers, but that's a fight for another day.

Anyhows, big wave of stink on the way, and all of it gonna land on Congress, you just watch.

-Frem

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:35 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Blue Dog Democrats?
Moderate Democrats?
Fiscally conservative Democrats?

What a pathetic joke! They've shown their true colors, and they are WHORISH colors.

In the end, they all line up in kamikaze fashion to take the blessed sacrament from Pelosi & Reid. Some giveth and some taketh. Now they're all heroes, right? They've saved America, right? Congratulations to the Democrats! You have your wonderful Healthcare Bill almost ready for Obama to sign. How appropriate that it's occuring during Christmas. What better present to Americans than higher taxes set to take place immediately in January for benefits that don't start for 4 years! Now that's what I call some real fuzzy math!... And HISTORIC, of course!

It is PHUNNIE, isn't it?? We are going to lower our premiums by raising our taxes... we'll end up paying the same and Big Insurance will end up making the same.

And now those people that couldn't afford insurance will have to pay for insurance or pay a penalty... with the same money they still don't have. Har har har!

But don't worry - it'll never make it's way into law. The Reps have this Bill's kryptonite: Abortion.

"In the House, advocates and opponents of abortion rights and conservative Democrats have made clear that they object, for different reasons, to the Senate’s compromise language on abortion. Interest groups on both sides of the spectrum — Planned Parenthood on the abortion rights side, Catholic bishops for the anti-abortion rights camp — also oppose the abortion provision in the Senate bill, leaving Speaker Nancy Pelosi with a challenge in rounding up the votes she needs in the House.

Ms. Pelosi’s room for maneuvering is limited because any changes to the language in the Senate bill could unravel the deal that provided Democrats with the 60 votes they need to get the legislation through the Senate."

Reps will hold onto Abortion until the bill just dies or people change their votes.

And Jongs - don't think for a second that were the shoe on the other foot that Reps wouldn't be feeding from the same trough.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:58 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Insane nutbag: "Only Nazis want democracy!"

Voice of reason:

Quote:
WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell made the following remarks on the Senate floor Thursday regarding the importance of getting it right on health care reform:

“Americans were told the purpose of reform was to reduce the cost of health care.

“Instead, Democrat leaders produced a $2.5 trillion, 2,074-page monstrosity that vastly expands government, raises taxes, raises premiums, and wrecks Medicare.

“And they want to rush this bill through by Christmas — one of the most significant, far-reaching pieces of legislation in U.S. history. They want to rush it.

“And here’s the most outrageous part: at the end of this rush, they want us to vote on a bill that no one outside the Majority Leader’s conference room has even seen.

“That’s right. The final bill we’ll vote on isn’t even the one we’ve had on the floor. It’s the deal Democrat leaders have been trying to work out in private.

“That’s what they intend to bring to the floor and force a vote on before Christmas.

“So this entire process is essentially a charade.

• The Majority Leader intends to bring this debate to a close as early as this weekend — four days from now, on this $2.5 trillion dollar mistake

• No American who hasn’t been invited into the Majority Leader’s conference room knows what will be in that bill

http://mcconnell.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=320943&start=1

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:09 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Oh, and just so you know, Medicare isn't all it's cracked up to be as well, since they can and will deny even medically necessary care - it was in fact a medicare doctor who I threw up against the wall and threatened after the accident when he told me in no uncertain terms he was well aware of my problem - that being the friggin pins holding my leg together at all had snapped off and the whole damn leg was crumpled up and wrapped in an ace bandage since all the bones were shattered and twisted, on top of serious internal infections, a bad case of malnutrition and two minor knife wounds - and still had absolutely ZERO intention of writing me the damn referral, at which point I jacked him into the wall one handed and explained in explicit, medical detail just what was ABOUT to happen to him, which changed his outlook considerably, especially since I didn't let GO of him till he wrote it and faxed it to Corvera, who was a more reasonable sorta dude.

Sounds like that scene in Sons of Anarchy, with the doctor advising the administrator what to do.

I think that provision is written into the bill: "Healthcare providers may be thrown against walls until they sign insurance claims for referrals."

I'm glad I don't have med coverage for chronic illness, which probably saves my life. But I do worry about trauma emergencies. Supposedly I get "free" treatment at the one "teaching hospital" (ie "student hospital"), but not at the other 5 hospitals. But parents who can afford it sell their homes and everything they own, rather than let their kids declare bankrupty, "or the hospital will kill them" and sell their organs for profit.

In theory I'll have Medicaid, which presumably is much worse than Medicare. TennCare refused to pay for anything, and doctors faked lab tests saying they'd lose money if they actually did them. Then the HMO CEO governor of TN cancelled my TennCare. As I said, VA refuses all medical care for me and my wife.

So the Dems' socialized medicine is a death sentence for USA, and does nothing to reduce $1-million murders per year by medical malpractice, like sabotaged vaccines.

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
And now those people that couldn't afford insurance will have to pay for insurance or pay a penalty... with the same money they still don't have. Har har har!

But don't worry - it'll never make it's way into law. The Reps have this Bill's kryptonite: Abortion.

Ms. Pelosi’s room for maneuvering is limited because any changes to the language in the Senate bill could unravel the deal that provided Democrats with the 60 votes they need to get the legislation through the Senate."

Reps will hold onto Abortion until the bill just dies or people change their votes.

And Jongs - don't think for a second that were the shoe on the other foot that Reps wouldn't be feeding from the same trough.

If Pelosi gets the House to accept the Senate version, then it's a done deal. Neither Howard Dean or the Republicans can stop it. No one knows what will happen in the House. The liberal Democrats who should stop it won't because they will not oppose Obama, despite what Howard Dean says. Without the Govt. option this bill is just a big windfall for the insurance companies, drug companies...and don't forget the 1/4 trillion dollars set aside for doctors. If Pelosi and her crowd do make changes to the Senate version, and it leads to a better bill, or even no bill, then she will have done her job. But I don't see that happening. Obama is polishing up his signing pen right now.

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:25 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

But don't worry - it'll never make it's way into law. The Reps have this Bill's kryptonite: Abortion.

Wasn't abortion dropped from the bill? Or has nobody been allowed to read it?

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:00 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Wasn't abortion dropped from the bill? Or has nobody been allowed to read it?

It was dropped from the House Bill. The Senate Bill dropped it as a compromise although its still in the bill (which makes as much sense as the fact everybody is debating and voting, but the actual bill is still locked up in Reid's office).

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:03 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

I've read that many Abortion Rights people are "outraged" over Senator Nelson's supposedly speaking for them and plan on arguing the language he okay'd.

"When Sen. Ben Nelson's (D-Neb.) abortion language was added to the Senate health care bill, a Republican member of my organization sent me this email: "Don't blame us. It's your party and president that started this mess."

Is it me, or is Obama's health care bill increasingly like the movie Groundhog Day? Another day, another women's health smackdown.

Ladies, we are a bargaining chip - and apparently, not a very big one. Women's health is under assault. Mammograms, pap smears, the Stupak Amendment and the Nelson language are all part of the wake up call of our generation."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amy-siskind/abortion-language-in-the_b_3
99153.html

Abortion is the Bermuda Triangle for any debate.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:05 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If ...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:22 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Kosher Bill Maher: Americans Too 'Stupid' So President Should Force ObamaCare into Law

"You know, they're talking about 60 votes they need," Maher said. "Forget this stuff. You can't get Americans to agree on anything. Sixty-percent? Sixty-percent of people don't believe in evolution in this country. He just needs to drag them to it. Like I just said, they're stupid. Just drag them to this."

He suggested Obama employ Mafia-like tactics straight from "The Godfather" to get Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., to agree to Obama's plan.

"Get health care done, you know, with or without them," Maher said. "Make the gang of six an offer they can't refuse. This Max Baucus guy - he needs to wake up tomorrow with an intern's head in his bed."

The HBO host also suggested Obama use some of the tactic Bush - or what he perceived as President George W. Bush's administration's disregard for what the public thought.

"I'm serious - you know, I said this months ago when people criticized me - this is where the president needs to be a little more like Bush," Maher said. "Bush had horrible ideas - torture, deregulation, massive tax cuts for the rich, preemptive war - horrible ideas. But you know what - he had that swagger that said I'm just going to get it through. Suck on it America if you don't like it."

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeff-poor/2009/08/25/hbos-maher-americans
-too-stupid-so-president-should-force-obamacare-law

Young Turks are jews who genocided 1-million Armenians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:57 PM

DREAMTROVE

Niki,

Congrats. You broke with your party. I was beginning to suspect you of being a true blue loyalist, our new reverse-Auraptor, here to support Obama or die.

Oh, and people who just attack Niki all the time, recognize that this is a pretty major break for her, since I'm pretty sure she's still a straight line liberal. How many on the right really flipped the bird to Bush when he wasn't a "true conservative"?

Frem,

Yeah... I was actually thinking I should start an insurance company... Let me know if you have a better idea.

Oh, I'm always serious ;)

Geezer,

Thanks. Actual information. It's becoming rare these days. That's pretty appalling. A tax on the poor. I think with $750 the poor can probably buy a fair amount of guns and ammo. That might help them more than insurance. The US medical establishment now kills more people than it saves, statistically. This is the reason to force you to pay for it.

Okay, so it's the end of an era. We are now a socialist state. You are forced to pay to breathe the american air, and, not to the govt, but to private corporations. I thought this was a dystopian future.

My first recommendation: Abandon ship. America has nothing going for it. We're a third world country with a dictatorial govt, fraudulent elections, a terrible healthcare system, a worse education system, no jobs, and no personal freedoms. The only thing america does have is a very nice piece of real estate. If anyone is game to take that from the chrones in DC, i'm game for that, but I'm joking about the guns, I was thinking more along the lines of electing a governor or two.

Oh, I can see if coming: The new discount health plan, all you have to do to get it is agree to be experimental subjects for these vaccinations and drugs...

I suspect this is *really* going to happen.

Oh, and don't rely on the house for a backbone. They own the house. Most of the representatives are just voted into office out of nowhere by machines that found the most easily manipulated whore they could find.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:53 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

"Abortion looms as possible health bill deal killer" from this morning:

"Abortion-rights supporters in the House also are evaluating the Senate language. After being taken by surprise after talks in the House broke down and Stupak got his way, members of the House Pro-Choice Caucus are vowing not to let it happen again and say they won't support a final bill that goes beyond current law that generally bans federal funds for abortions."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ga5wj8KWSfmblJGOEPvx
jd8QvX6QD9COT04G1

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:06 AM

BYTEMITE

If they don't have a government provided public option, then there's no reason for the abortion section except to muddy up the language of when someone can and can't get an abortion.

Not that the language is very clear in the first place, nor even really the ethics of the whole thing.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:54 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

JS:

Quote:
Ms. Pelosi’s room for maneuvering is limited because any changes to the language in the Senate bill could unravel the deal that provided Democrats with the 60 votes they need to get the legislation through the Senate.

Quote:
If Pelosi and her crowd do make changes to the Senate version, and it leads to a better bill, or even no bill, then she will have done her job. But I don't see that happening.

Given how hard it was to get 60 Senators to vote for it in the first place, I think you've got it; ANY changes they attempt to make in the House will not fly in the Senate, end of story. Will be interesting to see if they even try.

On the one hand, what's the good of "doing your job" if it's a failure in the end? On the other, is there honor in doing what you know is right despite pressure and the knowledge that the bill will fail if you do? Personally, I'm for the latter.

DT, don't assume. Yeah, I'm pissed right now, but Boxer has been an incredible Senator for us and Rep before that, far better than most in representing her constituents. If there's any serious challenge in who they put up against her, I'll vote. If she looks like the lock she always is, I won't. I see it as a "vote of no confidence" (Oh, how I wish we shared that aspect with the Brits!!!!). But if there's a serious challenge, as always, it's the lesser of two evils.

From what I've read of him, I think the comparison to Auoraptor is pretty unfair. Mike, if anything, is more vociferous and closer to nasty like Raptor, if you're going to be fair about it. And I've said repeatedly that I'm still waiting on Obama but losing hope, I've never supported him 100% but am not going to trash him after less than a year. So far he's still an improvment over Dumbya or McCain/Palin, but I have a "wait and see" attitude.

And I don't HAVE a "party"...I told you, I'm an Independent. Yes, right now I'm pretty hard left, but that's because of Bush and where the country is right now. I've never been "hard" right, but I've been moderate and I'm a fiscal conservative.

Aside from that, I have disagreed with the Dems when I see them as being wrong, and this is wrong. It's as simple as that...I support what I believe is right. I've been against them BIG TIME when it comes to Israel, and other issues. Please don't label me.

We are now a Socialist state because of one bill? We've been semi-socialist for a long time now, but I don't buy totally Socialist) and if your recommendation is to get out, where are you going? Where would you go that's better? Just curious. Somewhere you could make a living, and if you were disabled or old could survive without family to care for you, among other things. I'd really like to know, and why.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Why is it that liberals always want someone else to do their work for them? Or get something for nothing?

Few examples:

1. Healthcare: They want other people to pay for it through taxes. Don't want to have to actually work to pay for it themselves.

2. Education: Don't want to help their precious little snowflakes learn, or discipline them... so they dump their problems on teachers.

3. Personal Defense: Don't want to protect themselves, so they support more cops and less guns.

4. Welfare: Duh.

5. Environment: Will buy a Prius, but won't work to create eco-friendly businesses.

6. War: Have "them" fight it. But only if its for a cause you can forget about. Claim you want them home, but then rally to send more troops.

7. Homelessness: Will claim its the greatest tragedy in the country, but won't work at a homeless shelter (or pick up a ladle). *Ok that one I got from Family Guy.

Just curious, cus the blue bile gets so thick around here sometimes that I just choke on it.

Not that red bile is any better, but thats in shorter supply.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There is one change Pelosi could make without unraveling support (I would imagine) and that is to remove the MANDATE from the Senate bill. In other words, just drop the whole bill down to an insurance regulation bill. And who would openly come out in favor of a mandate? Not the progressives... they're fed up with the bill. And even the bought-and-paid-for insurance shills would need some big huevos to vote that back in. But that change would have to be the only major change to the bill, because you don't want to leave any excuses for voting for it.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:33 AM

I'm probably wrong, but I don't see any changes a'comin'. Howard Dean has reversed his position on the Senate bill, and now says the bill is better and OK with him. He had zero influence in the Senate, but the House folks are a bit more radical than that, so we'll see. But as this bill will be so "historic" I see them all waiving their objections so that Obama can sign the final bill right before State of the Union in January. They figure it's their best and only shot at having this type of majority ever again, so why not get something now, anything, as long as they can call it a victory and historic. That's politics! Bribes, payoffs, dirty closed door deals, and in-your-face favoritism.

So...WHY DIDN'T MY F'ING SENATOR "HOLD OUT" SO MY STATE COULD GET A BIG WINDFALL BREAK? Isn't everyone in America asking that same question now? Some states got real sweetheart deals....they got Federal tax money allocated to cover their increases in Medicaid, and "THEIR" state healthcare providers like Blue Cross, etc got special deals and exemptions....or new Hospitals, water-treatments plants, etc. We poor schmos in my state got a big fat ZERO as far as I can tell. We certainly all know it's vile and un-ethical, but also, how can all that be legal? Bribes for votes with taxpayer dollars? Answer...doesn't matter...might makes right in politics.

I applaud the Liberals who were willing for a while to not support the bill, but understandably, you have or will, all line up behind Obama and this bill. So be it.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:01 AM

CITIZEN

Americans were so scared of Socialist Public health, they went and got Fascist government enforced private instead...

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Cit: Well said and too true. This is one big clusterf*ck in action.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I just wanna' bury my head in the sand for the next ... oh, probably till I die.

***************************************************************

Oh wait ! France is looking pretty nice lately.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:24 AM

You know if the Bill gets signed into law by Obama, the Dems and the Media will hail it as a huge victory for America.....so you guys are putting substance over politics in this? I'm humbled by your convictions.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig: I'm in complete agreement. And I wish to hell someone would mention doing away with the public option (how about doing away with the codification of private health insurance companies’ legal monopoly status, while we’re at it, too?). I still can’t believe that one’s going to be accepted, and spit nails when I hear people giving press conferences talking about what a “victory” this is for the American People!!!

Jong: The same thing occurred to me; what's that saying about "squeaky wheel gets the grease"? And yeah, substance over politics: scary concept, isn't it!

Wulf: HOW I wish you would stop lumping people into "liberal" or whatever then making assertions that they "all" believe this or that, or act in this or that way. I don't fit any of those categories, yet you’re happy to label me liberal and toss insults at me.

Healthcare: I’ve worked hard all my life until recently and paid taxes, and have no problem with a tax increase for REAL healthcare reform (which this isn’), even tho’ I’m now on Medicare so it wouldn’t affect me.

Education: I’ve long been a proponent of individual responsibility and find it abhorrent that people now look to schools to raise their kids. I have many problems with our educational system, including tenure.

Personal defense: As far as I know, nobody wants cops and guns because they’re AFRAID of defending themselves; the argument usually is that it endangers people if irresponsible people own guns, and other things.

Welfare: Not worth responding, as all you said was “Duh”

Environment: I can’t afford a Prius, and am not convinced that’s the way to go anyway, but I do many, many things to help the environment, which I’ve listed previously.

War: I’m not aware that there’s a stricture in military service that you can’t be a “liberal”, I thought everyone served. And if you hadn’t noticed it’s the Democrats who are AGAINST sending more troops to Afghanistan…?

Homelessness: I’ve done my bit, and continue to. I guess cooking for and delivering food to a shelter doesn’t count as “picking up a ladle” to you…

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Not that red bile is any better, but thats in shorter supply.

Only cause we bulldozed most of it off a cliff in the last presidential election - it'll ooze back up from the crevices like always.

Re: Healthcare...

Yanno, done said it before, think of the tremendous losses and waste caused by so many conflicting systems all of which have so much administrative cost very little actually gets to patient care - you see this in some "charities" that are actually tax shelters run by politically connected asshats, where admin costs eat 96% of the take, etc...

If you went straight to medicare/medicaid, which as fucked up as it is, isn't significantly worse than most private plans which cost many times more since admin, marketing and taxes all have to come out of it, plus the profit bucket - you would eliminate the tax issue and a ton of those admin costs right off the top since you wouldn't have to answer to a board and a bunch of greedy shareholders, just run it on a nonprofit efficiency framework - sure, you're gonna lose some to admin costs necessary to process the paperwork but there'd be less OF it, on a national scale, and the incentive to squeeze people to death to make a buck would over time fade significantly.

Plus one could put all the effort that's been shovelled into this mess so far to better use by cleaning up and refining the existing system which does need to be done regardless - and as a bonus we could then buy out much of the private care infrastructure and incorporate it into a national healthcare system.

I could give a shit what you CALL it, and I am even not gonna much begrudge the tax bite cause it's a sure better use when we GET something for it as opposed to buying and building bombs and bullets, which you don't get back even if you "win" don't ya know, which frankly, we ain't gonna, and we all know it.

And the real hell of it is ?
You could do it 60-70% CHEAPER than any established plan set forth so far, the structure is already there and can be adapted for this in six to eight weeks, and incorporating the private care infrastructure would lessen any hit of unemployment cause we could roll in existing employees - WITHOUT the board and CEOs and all the exploitive bullshit that comes with it.

We're already paying such a hideous amount of money for healthcare in this country - if "socialized medicine" is the only way to actually GET what the hell we're payin for, well then, we oughta do that.

Private enterprise had it's chance, they fucked it up - time for "we the people" to take the hell over and see if we can't do a better job of it, and if private practice thinks they CAN compete with that, means to try, by all means let em, maybe they'll actually start offering services instead of lies, right ?

Frankly, we oughta do the same thing to auto insurance companies - how many of you pay all that money full and well KNOWING that you will STILL be left swingin in the breeze if you have an accident ?

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:10 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

You have 24 hours to learn to love it!

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/housesenatebill_final.pdf

"Individual Mandate:

Require U.S. citizens and legal residents to have qualifying health
coverage. Those without coverage pay a tax penalty of the greater of
$750 per year up to a maximum of three times that amount ($2,250)
per family or 2% of household income. The penalty will be phased-in
according to the following schedule: $95 in 2014, $495 in 2015, and $750
in 2016 for the flat fee or .5% of taxable income in 2014, 1.0% of taxable
income in 2015, and 2% of taxable income in 2016. Beginning after 2016,
the penalty will be increased annually by the cost-of-living adjustment.
Exemptions will be granted for financial hardship, religious objections,
American Indians, those without coverage for less than three months,
undocumented immigrants, incarcerated individuals, if the lowest cost
plan option exceeds 8% of an individual’s income, and if the individual
has income below 100% of the poverty level. "

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:12 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Obamacare is a $15,000 tax increase that pays employers to NOT offer insurance, and REDUCES funding for Medicare/Medicaid.
http://www.infowars.com/obamacare-to-cost-middle-class-families-15000-
a-year/

Love that 5 years prison and $250,000 fine for no insurance.

Merry Xmas, suckers!

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:16 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

And if you hadn’t noticed it’s the Democrats who are AGAINST sending more troops to Afghanistan…?

...................................EVIL LAFF

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:35 PM

DREAMTROVE

Citizen,

After just saying that we should avoid politics, I just want to point a couple things out

1. It ain't the american people that are afraid of public health. It's corporations. Insurance in particular. We have had, of course, several forms of public health in the US for a very long time, we have the VA, medicare and medicaid.

2. When people in the US fear govt. control on healthcare, it's because of *our* govt. Lots of state govts. can enact healthcare reform with no opposition at all, and it ain't because the people are all liberals.

We have a long bloody history with our govt. Remember, after ousting the brits, a couple of the first acts of our federal govt. were:

1. Exterminating 12 million natives
2. Enslaving a few million others.
Then
3. Declaring war on its own citizenry, knowing full well that it was cheaper to buy the slave holders out than to fight the war, and the govt. ended up killing a million of its own citizens.
4. Then the US govt. embarks on a series of foreign wars that kill million of people and plunges the nation into debt.
5. This is still going on.

Almost never did the *US* govt. take something over and fix it. Really.

So, are we suspicious of DC? you bet. Ever feel a lil suspicious of Brussels? Think Folks in the Ukraine got suspcious of Moscow?

So, no, it's not an irrational fear. We have a NY public health, which I use. It's flawed, but NY isn't a fuckup like DC. I don't want DC coming and fucking up my NY healthcare, which is exactly what they're going to do. You wouldn't want the EU fucking up UK healthcare... I know enough people in England to know there's a fair amount of resistance to this sort of idea. And that's considering that *yes* Brussels has made some colossal fuck ups in the past, but it's still nothing to compare with Washington's record of fuck ups.

So, New York can put up any kind of socialized medicing program, and get very little resistance. But they would never come up with a plan like this one.

With no national healthcare, all americans are entitled to healthcare on demand. After this, that will no longer be true.

Our federal govt. is horridly corrupt and serves only its own special interest groups. We're really not interested in anything they propose, esp. by the time they pass it.

Just so you understand that when this becomes one of the points in a revolution that causes the US to crumble, you'll know it's not our objection to the concept of universal healthcare.

Oh, BTW, you were away, I think you missed the post where I made a similar rant against our govt. and its ability to screw anything up, and said "If they wanted to create a national healthcare plan and outsource it to Sweden, I think it would pass overwhelmingly"

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:02 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Americans were so scared of Socialist Public health, they went and got Fascist government enforced private instead...

I was curious about this, so I googled "public option support polls". The first three responses I got showed polls reporting 83%, 77% and 76% in favor of a public option. Pretty much every response shows a majority of Americans support public option. So I'd guess it isn't the American people who are scared of it.

Aside from the usual suspects (Health insurance industry, etc.), I suspect the Congress figures a public option would put a lot of their constituents, who are wage-earner-type folks in health insurance businesses - clerks, secretaries, IT folk, etc. - out of work. Also, they probably aren't too pleased about having to build another huge bureaucracy which will create problems for their constituents, which will land right on their desks along with the current complaints about SSA, Medicare, taxes, VA, etc.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:49 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Obama Death Panel Bill includes a $3-billion tax on sunlight
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2009-12-23/tanning-salons-say-tax-wou
ld-trigger-job-cuts-store-closings.html

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
would put a lot of their constituents, who are wage-earner-type folks in health insurance businesses - clerks, secretaries, IT folk, etc. -out of work. Also, they probably aren't too pleased about having to build another huge bureaucracy which will create problems for their constituents, which will land right on their desks along with the current complaints about SSA, Medicare, taxes, VA, etc.

So... you're saying that peeps who work for insurance companies wouldn't find jobs in the new government bureaucracy?

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Or better yet, after being trained as aides, nurses, laundry operators, housekeepers, PAs, EMTs etc etc that they wouldn't find jobs doing something more GASP ! USEFUL than shuffing papers ? That they HAVE to keep their paper-shuffling jobs to keep the medical system and even the economy afloat ?

Geezer, please. Credit us with a little more intellligence than that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:46 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So... you're saying that peeps who work for insurance companies wouldn't find jobs in the new government bureaucracy?

Some could, but a lot couldn't. Aside from the fact that some folk don't want to work civil service, you have to figure that the government jobs aren't going to be in the same places unemployed health insurance workers live. Congresspersons who have a large health insurance company presence in their districts know that they'll end up with a lot of unemployed folks, especially as the new offices will be in the districts of the legislators with the most seniority and clout. See how BRAC worked for an example.

There's also no guarantee that the folks hired for the civil service jobs would be the same ones who used to work in private health insurance. There are various preferences built into civil service hiring that could end up giving the jobs to others, such as minorities or veterans.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:51 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Frem: Well spoken, and I agree 100%. With most of what DT said, as well.

Geezer, for me, I believe it's far more that our "representatives" are bought and paid for; that the Dems lack balls and have had to follow Obama's myopic view on "bipartisanship", the Repubs being SO staunchly the "party of no" and determined to use whatever means possible to kill anything put forward by the Dems, and the Dems having too big a tent (the Repubs are much better at getting people who will tow the mark). As well, the recognition of some dems that they can get all kind of booty for their vote.

I can't imagine any government being afraid of more bureaucracy, it's what they thrive on, and agree with Mike; most of those people would get government jobs in healthcare anyway. Amazing, isn't it, the percentage of Americans who want a public option, as opposed to the Congress being absolutely determined we won't get it? Sickening.

What was that wonderful sockpuppet video, with the statemet "I will fight to my dying day to avoid following my constiuents' wishes" or something to that effect? Uh-yah!

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:57 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Alabama Congressman Parker Griffith announced Tuesday he is switching to the Republican Party
http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/20859

Can't imagine why...

I know I'll never vote Democrat again.

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:59 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Or better yet, after being trained as aides, nurses, laundry operators, housekeepers, PAs, EMTs etc etc that they wouldn't find jobs doing something more USEFUL than shuffing papers ? That they HAVE to keep their paper-shuffling jobs to keep the medical system and even the economy afloat ?

This assumes that the medical industry needs more aides, nurses, etc., that the people and the jobs are in the same places, that the folks have the desire or ability to train for and work those jobs, and that the unemployed out there now aren't already trying to get those jobs.

Unfortunately for your plan, we can't (yet) just round them up, put them in re-education camps until they meet your concept of useful, then ship them where the State needs them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:17 AM