Seven of Nine by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Seven of Nine

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:14
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VIEWED: 2485
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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Now, finally, o2tb, and also wulf

Yeah, sure, people in the past have whacked you over the head. It happens. It's happened to all of this. When I first joined this board the first response I got was "Which asshole is this troll a sockpuppet for?" That was followed by a number of guesses, but the posters then retracted those posts with the edit feature when it became clear I was an actual new user. Nice welcome?

It's nice to see that you are temporarily off the crack cocaine and on your prescription meds, but you must remember that your memories are often just drug induced delusions. Do you realise that you regularly accuse people of retracting comments by editing, were in reality this rarely occurs. While you may see this and past comments I have made, as a personal attack, I assure you that I and others only hope to help cement your grip on reality. I have been reading all of your posts since our last encounter and other than the parts were you agree with PN you have a good mind, just don't forget that this is RWED, which implies events that occurred in reality.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:09 PM

CHRISISALL

Ahhh, facts now, not personal attacks. Good.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Posted by DreamTrove:

Yeah, sure, people in the past have whacked you over the head. It happens. It's happened to all of this. When I first joined this board the first response I got was "Which asshole is this troll a sockpuppet for?"

Weird, I just realized you joined about a month after I did. Great minds think alike, it seems! :)

And yeah, I stayed well clear of the RWED for some time, just watching and lurking, and sticking to the Buffy/Angel and Firefly areas, and occasionally the Other SciFi area. My way of thinking wasn't terribly welcome around RWED in those days.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:44 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

The self-published reference was to a Lulu book. I have no objection to self-publication, and being somewhat intimately familiar with the publishing world you I'm sure understand my disdain for it.

My irksome attitude towards the particular debate was that the original poster of said argument *did* take the stance that no one had the right to comment nor could be considered credible in the overall subject of the authoritarian mindset, its origins or even psychology overall, unless they read the lulu book in its entirety, which is a propagandistic approach to beating your opposition into submission by making the wall to participating in the discussion too high to be effectively worth it.

I did *try* to read it, and I didn't comment then that I thought the psychology behind it was bogus and amateurish, or that the text itself was unreadable, and ended up moving into "skim" mode somewhere in chapter three, but still, I resented the infobomb. IIRC, Geezer was the only member of the forum to actually read the entire thing all the way through, which didn't effect his opinion much. Not overly surprising since the author's abject hostility to anyone who agreed with either his initial political perspective or his theories on developmental psychology made it almost impossible to agree with him.

But yes, point taken on self published, by all means, though everyone needs an editor, they should have the final say in what gets said. I've always said that the editor should be hired by the writer for the purpose of improving the text, much like an illustrator, and ultimately, hopefully, peer review systems will determine the merit of a work, though hopefully in a more advanced manner than the tyranny of the majority.

As you know, I write as well, but I have yet to publish, not from want of offers, but from my own problems with the concept of "selling" your work. I know many other writers, as I'm a member of a writers circle, of some note, and often wonder exactly how many acquaintances we have in common.

Part of the reason I was working so hard this year was that I wanted to set up for spinning off my main business so that I could focus on writing. I still intend to do that, though as you know a small matter has come up that demands my attention, and as the sort of person who firmly believes, if only because it's been hammered into my head by the hard school of experience: If you want something done right, do it yourself.

But as for writing: My plan is to achieve some sort of recognition through another mechanism, awards or whatever, so that I can satisfy myself that it's good enough, and retain all rights, rather than "sell." This last is, of course, one that gets me into the most arguments with fellow writers.

Particularly, BTW, having known a number of people who took both routes, the power of the publisher to influence the message is disturbing, as well as the share of the profits they take. That said, the value of talented editing should not be underestimated. Not having read the texts below, I can't say that this applies to everyone, but it was consistent enough that I would want to have an editor. Fortunately I know quite a few...

Kirk,

if I want your opinion I'll ask for it

Actually you exaggerate: Frequently? No, I've made the accusation three times over five years and about 10,000 posts. Not too frequent.

Feel free to find that initial post. It *long* predates the appearance of Kirkules. By a solid 2 years IIRC.

I was just illustrating that skepticism towards new users was commonplace. I have little doubt of my view of the world, but I admit that it is impossible to be certain of certain facts. It is very easy to be fairly sure that the underinformed are wrong when they uphold ideas that you have already discarded.

I'm always searching for a better truth.

ETA:

Mike,

Yeah, it's interesting to look and see who joined at the same time. I've checked several times. I find it interesting that no one has ever commented on the coincidence of my appearance with that of RiveR6213, only that they have remarked upon the coincidence of the re-appearance of PN with my visit, probably the source of sockpuppet allegations. Eventually it ended in sympathy for my thread being PN's return of night of the living spam. That said, my initial reaction to John was the same as anything else. I probably called him a Nazi the first half dozen times.

o2tb also dates to the same time as me, Frem way predates me. I think Citizen does but not as much, Rue, a few others, Chrisisall I think, some of these guys are so early I figured they know Haken personally. At least, when I start a board, I beta test it for some time, so the people of the first few month are people I know. None of the boards I had are still running due to the "incident" with my spilling our cold war first strike plan against Iran.

Anyway, I moved rapidly to RWED because the simple quantity in traffic in other areas was actually too much for me to handle. I moved here from the imdb board. I was sick of having to defend Firefly while admitting that it was highly derivative of space western anime.

"Everything I do is derivative" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:52 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Kirk,

if I want your opinion I'll ask for it
Actually you exaggerate: Frequently? No, I've made the accusation three times over five years and about 10,000 posts. Not too frequent.

Feel free to find that initial post. It *long* predates the appearance of Kirkules. By a solid 2 years IIRC.

I was just illustrating that skepticism towards new users was commonplace. I have little doubt of my view of the world, but I admit that it is impossible to be certain of certain facts. It is very easy to be fairly sure that the underinformed are wrong when they uphold ideas that you have already discarded.

I'm always searching for a better truth.

The respose of a sane man. Nice to see you back in the "real world", for the most part anyway.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA

My derision for publishers comes of being forced to attend some of those writers workshops and conventions and watch the endless circle of suck uppery and ass kissery that must be run in order to be "published" when most of the drek they're passing around amounts to 800 pages of bad angsty livejournal in need of a flamethrower rather than an editor - and hell yes I class Twilight in that, it's the book every one of them shitheels wanted to write, DID write, but didn't suck enough dick to get into print - that just disgusted me.

Baen was pretty good till Jim capped it, but recently has become increasingly politically bent to where the books have just been awful, I called up Mike Z pretty short on just how abysmally racist and anvil-droppingly awful one of his was, cause the whole story revolved around some seriously narrow viewpoints which have less basis in reality than flying saucers...

And lets not even go into how horrific Ringo has gotten without another author and editor making the stuff palatable to anyone but a sociopath, although he gets major props for The Road to Damascus - although in hindsight watching his marysue characters and nightmarish viewpoint on the world I begin to wonder if I should not properly credit Linda Evans for the work instead.

I guess it's much like hollywood, it's all in who you know and who you blow instead of any actual ability - at least with self publishing one has a chance to assess an author by skill instead of how much ass they've kissed, you know ?

As for the book in question - it was written by someone with a thought process more conventional, for those with a more conventional thought process, and you should recognize that as why it was so hard for you to get your mind around it cause you do not think in a conventional linear fashion, which has it's ups and downs, but it's not like you're the only one around here, SixStringJack and Bytemite have similar sidewinder minds like mine, Mikey runs on "how can I mock this?" and so on and so forth.

In order to reach the target audience, the person who did write that book did it to be most comprehensible to them, and yes it could use a couple clarity edits, but for self-published work on a string budget aimed at a specific demographic it's pretty brilliant.

Besides, if you wanna see something that REALLY needs a clarity edit, try reading some medical journals and study results sometimes - one reason Bruce Perry climbed up so high wasn't just his research, it was his ability to GET IT ACROSS to the average joe in a way they can comprehend.

-F

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Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:35 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
My derision for publishers comes of being forced to attend some of those writers workshops and conventions and watch the endless circle of suck uppery and ass kissery

Oh you don't say...

Yes, I might happen to have notices something of this nature. I think that there was a little bit of rampant whoring...

actually, I think it's not necessary, but I'm appalled at how well it works for those who do worship the editors. of course, most of these people suck. The way I put it, their logic is:

Hey, I wrote this crap. Now someone has to publish it. How can I whore myself so that someone prints my garbage.

These things can actually be used to improve your writing, by getting to know some of the talented editors and getting their input.

Peer reviews are overall pretty useless. The peers seldom have anything constructive to say. Looking over the comments, well over 90% of anything useful and constructive in the commentary on my writing was made by one of three editors. one or two 'peer' writers made up the rest. A dozen writers had nothing constructive to say. And this was just a post mortem. no pre-judgment at all.

But my favorite whoring moment was when this one woman wanted to suck up to the editor of Pyr, who was talking to me, and she had gotten him coffee, but to give it to him she first had to say to me "move, I had that seat first"

I wasn't talking about being published of course, I had no interest.

Quote:

that must be run in order to be "published" when most of the drek they're passing around amounts to 800 pages of bad angsty livejournal in need of a flamethrower rather than an editor

ROFL

Quote:
and hell yes I class Twilight in that, it's the book every one of them shitheels wanted to write, DID write, but didn't suck enough dick to get into print - that just disgusted me.

Oh, a lot of the stuff out there at workshops *does* suck enough dick.

The thing with stephanie meyer and dan brown and need i say j k rowling is that these people really understand formula and audience. That the first two at least can't write isn't important.

Quote:
Baen was pretty good till Jim capped it, but recently has become increasingly politically bent to where the books have just been awful, I called up Mike Z pretty short on just how abysmally racist and anvil-droppingly awful one of his was, cause the whole story revolved around some seriously narrow viewpoints which have less basis in reality than flying saucers...

I didn't really get into the Baen debate, my sister is much more connected there, but i noticed that the Baen defense league was some upset at the amount of abuse that Jim Baen was coming in for, what with him being so recently deceased at the time.

Actually, I hadn't realized, but I see now that Jim died *during* the convention in question, so at the end when people were giving their rants, they were probably pre-prepared and were unaware that he had passed away in between their rant preparation and tacky presentation of same.

Quote:
And lets not even go into how horrific Ringo has gotten without another author and editor making the stuff palatable to anyone but a sociopath, although he gets major props for The Road to Damascus - although in hindsight watching his marysue characters and nightmarish viewpoint on the world I begin to wonder if I should not properly credit Linda Evans for the work instead.

Lost me on this one. Linda Evans. No relation?

Quote:
I guess it's much like hollywood, it's all in who you know and who you blow instead of any actual ability - at least with self publishing one has a chance to assess an author by skill instead of how much ass they've kissed, you know ?

Only to some extent. Hollywood can make an actor look good. Bad writing still looks bad after it has been published and sold a million copies. The real justice comes later when people are still paying attention to the Philip K Dicks of today, and will have forgotten the Da Vinci code. Of course, moneywise...

But then you know I don't believe in money.

Quote:

As for the book in question - it was written by someone with a thought process more conventional, for those with a more conventional thought process, and you should recognize that as why it was so hard for you to get your mind around it cause you do not think in a conventional linear fashion, which has it's ups and downs, but it's not like you're the only one around here, SixStringJack and Bytemite have similar sidewinder minds like mine, Mikey runs on "how can I mock this?" and so on and so forth.

Yes, so true. And of course, a lot of that conventional logic is stuff that I rejected a long time ago, and reading theories based on it does make me feel like I'm wasting my time.

Quote:
In order to reach the target audience, the person who did write that book did it to be most comprehensible to them, and yes it could use a couple clarity edits, but for self-published work on a string budget aimed at a specific demographic it's pretty brilliant.

I thought objectively, it dragged, but it does preach to the choir, and that is a very successful tactic.

Quote:
Besides, if you wanna see something that REALLY needs a clarity edit, try reading some medical journals and study results sometimes - one reason Bruce Perry climbed up so high wasn't just his research, it was his ability to GET IT ACROSS to the average joe in a way they can comprehend.

I have. In my total lack of a real education I took a lot of courses, ad hoc. It was always painfully simple to do as my fellow student were so often stoned, drunk, or absent, or hadn't read the material, but I quickly found myself in grad classes doing a lot of research that required reading this dribble. That's why I like the abstracts so much: They're thick as hell to get through scientifically, but they are space limited. That's when I got to the real class barrier in society: I got into medical school, and they told me "oh, that will be only $70,000 a year." Part of why I know what I do about the subject, I've been studying it ever since then, whereas if I'd actually been able to go, 3-5 years later I would have been working around the clock practicing, and wouldn't have read another thing about medicine.

And, yeah, I confess that I get frustrated at people who believe there's some divine difference between a mouse and a human, but that's just a matter of not knowing enough about the underlying biology. The reason all experiments are done on mice is there essentially is no difference between a mouse and a human. Except for the whole "Accellerated Decrepitude" thing as Pris Stratton would call it ;)

Actually, that one factor is a tremendous asset to researchers.

But I digress...

The point of writing, at the moment, for me, is communication. Being able to write, knowing that my stuff is not junk, and having someone catch the stupid stuff I miss, so that when it's acceptable to a publisher, having the opportunity to turn them down.

I can tell the sagas of people getting fucked over by publishers that I know personally, but not on a public forum. They might not appreciate it ;)

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:40 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I wonder what's in it for the goons like Bernacke. It's not like he's one of the ULTRA wealthy .

OK - he's doing better than nearly all of us, but it's not as if he's one of the owners:

The chairman's financial disclosure form, released Tuesday, showed that Bernanke is a millionaire, with holdings last year in no-frills investments, including U.S. Treasury securities, mutual funds and annuities.

Bernanke, 53, took over the central bank in February 2006, succeeding longtime chairman Alan Greenspan, who also played it safe when it came to his own investments while at the Fed.

An economist who spent most of his career in academia, including teaching at Princeton, Bernanke also is receiving royalties on two textbooks he wrote. Royalty income was listed at between $50,001 and $100,000 for each textbook, the document showed.

I mean, really - what does he get for licking all those boots ?

He's got a billion dollars in his personal piggy bank. That was is 2008, before the bonuses were paid out from his $25-Trillion Bankster Bailout Bill, after he personally threatened Congress with martial law if they refused to pass it.

Wiki has been sanitized for his protection:

Quote:
The Bernankes were one of the few Jewish families in the area, attending a local synagogue called Ohav Shalom;[6] as a child, Bernanke learned Hebrew from his maternal grandfather Harold Friedman, who was a professional hazzan, shochet, and Hebrew teacher.

As a teenager in the 1960s in the small town of Dillon, S.C., Bernanke used to help roll the Torah scrolls in his local synagogue. Although he keeps his beliefs private, his friend Mark Gertler, chairman of New York University’s economics department, commented in 2005 that, "it is really embedded in who he (Bernanke) is".

Quote:
“Just the Jews are humans, the Non-Jews are no humans, but cattle.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Kerithuth 6b page 78, Jebhammoth 61a (goyim = human cattle)

“The Non-Jews have been created to serve the Jews as slaves.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Midrasch Talpioth 225

“Jews always have to try to deceive Non-Jews.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Zohar I, 168a

“Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Babha Kama 113a

“The possessions of the goyim are like an ownerless desert, and
everybody (every Jew) who seizes it, has acquired it.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, IV/3/54b

“When the Messiah comes, all will be slaves of the Jews.”
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Erubin 43b

"Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
-Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, to Jonathan Pollard (convicted traitor and spy in USA) upon exiting Pollard's jail cell

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

"Fuck Obama! White Power! Fuck the niggers! Obama, who even knows if he was born in the United States? We haven't seen his birth certificate yet. I'm a jew, I'm Israel. Obama, I'm gonna teabag your ass and put it on youtube, faggot."
-White jews in Israel, June 2009
video: www.tu.tv/videos/feeling-the-hate-in-jerusalem-on-eve-of
http://radarsite.blogspot.com/2009/06/youth-in-israel-speak-out-about-
obamas.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244371044168&pagename=JPAr
ticle/ShowFull
youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5dbxPO8cU

Merrill Lynch merger with Bank of America
In a letter to Congress from New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo dated April 23, 2009, Bernanke was mentioned along with former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson in allegations of fraud concerning the acquisition of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America. The letter alleged that the extent of the losses at Merrill Lynch were not disclosed to Bank of America by Bernanke and Paulson. When Bank of America CEO Kenneth Lewis informed Paulson that Bank of America was exiting the merger by invoking the "Materially Adverse Change" clause Paulson immediately called Lewis to a meeting in Washington. At the meeting, which allegedly took place on December 21, 2008, Paulson told Lewis that he and the board would be replaced if they invoked the MAC clause and additionally not to reveal the extent of the losses to shareholders. Paulson stated to Cuomo's office that he was directed by Bernanke to threaten Lewis in this manner.[29] Congressional hearings into these allegations were conducted on June 25, 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_bernanke

Jew Paulson threw boss Bernanke under the bus

Paulson Contradicts Bernanke, Blames Bernanke For Threat to Fire Bank of America Board for Blocking Merrill Lynch Merger (which Bernanke owned stock in)
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-paulson-contradicts-berna
nke-blames-bernanke-for-lewis-threat-2009-4

Ron Paul says "There is no authority for a central bank. Ben Bernanke is the greatest counterfeiter the world has ever seen! Adolf Hitler was Time's Man of the Year too. He's evil, he can create a trillion dollars out of thin air, he's more powerful than the president."

Obama kept corrupt Bush appointees like Bernanke, and directors of CIA and Pentagon, to accellerate the bailouts and wars.

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:04 AM

DREAMTROVE

Rantariffic

Henry Paulson is a Christian Scientist.

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

DT, I see you have completely avoided my response to you and moved the subject in other directions. While I think getting away from the personal issues here is a good thing, I find it significant that, once you'd gone after me quite vociferously, you never again bothered to answer my questions or respond, yet rambled in a couple of your usual extremely lengthy posts. Given you said you often don’t read my lengthy posts, and that we are in disagreement on so many subjects, I think it’s best I start doing the same.

Another falsehood:

Quote:
My irksome attitude towards the particular debate was that the original poster of said argument *did* take the stance that no one had the right to comment nor could be considered credible in the overall subject of the authoritarian mindset, its origins or even psychology overall, unless they read the lulu book in its entirety, which is a propagandistic approach to beating your opposition into submission by making the wall to participating in the discussion too high to be effectively worth it

That is not true. First off, I didn't post an "argument", I posted a theory propounded by an author. Given we began by discussing the book itself and what the author put forward, with regard to your judgment of same, to you I said

Quote:
From what you wrote, if I take it seriously it seems to me that you have misunderstood what the author posits

and

Quote:
I am merely more convinced than ever that you didn't "get" the concept of the theory, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that and let it go.

You had much negative to say in judgment of the author, his theories, his motivation, etc., but in the thread Mike posted, that is ALL I had to say to anyone with regard to reading the book.

Mike, you’re so good at hunting these things down, can you find the original thread on The Authoritarians for me, purty please?

In the thread he gave us a link to, we all went on to have a lively discussion of politics and many other things, rarely getting back to the subject of The Authoritarians, which is what most threads do and which I found enjoyable.

DT, also interestingly, you said

Quote:
So far Nik hasn't said anything that really offended me

Yet in the previous post you said some pretty unpleasant things about my comment that you had begun to sound like PN, and you really railed on me. I'd hate to see what you were like when you WERE offended!

I realize this is personal and refers back to the earlier disagreement; I’m writing it because I find it illuminating that you write long posts judging, lecturing and making assumptions to and about others, yet find it perfectly acceptable to then dismiss any response they might make, yet in posts to others in the same thread, say things which are untrue about them.

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Monday, December 28, 2009 1:42 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Posted by Niki2:

Mike, you’re so good at hunting these things down, can you find the original thread on The Authoritarians for me, purty please?

Your wish is my command, my lady...

I believe this is the thread you're looking for:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=39771

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, December 28, 2009 5:03 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

Handy catch. Unfortunately, that's the very early Niki that would prove to have more arrogance and less credibility than the typical Wulfie rant. I'm afraid I'm done with the topic, and the poster, for now. I try not to judge the post by the poster, and she's free to come back on some other topic, but sort of the way that if Wulf were to post something about the genetics behind racial differences I wouldn't look at it as objectively as if Kathy were to post on the subject, for example, well, you get my point.

Nik devoted a fair amount of time to trying to prevent me from discussing topics with others, I got annoyed, my apologies for letting it show. Reminiscent of my death match with Citizen couple years back.

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Monday, December 28, 2009 5:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

If you are unwilling to countenence personal attacks, quit making them, Dream - frankly folks have been very patient about it, but you have been an absolute dick towards Niki without any rational cause other than being disagreed with, and if that is how you desire things to be, fine.

We don't *have* to even acknowledge your existence, might I remind you, and I for one have no further intention at this point of doing so.

-F

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Monday, December 28, 2009 5:46 PM

KWICKO

For what it's worth, both of you (Dream and Niki) seem to have hit a wall with each other, and you can't seem to get past it. You've gotten to a point where you can't even hear (or see) WHAT the other is saying, or get to their salient points, because you're both fixated on WHO is saying it.

Perhaps it's time to either let it go, bury the hatchet, or just agree to disagree.

'Course, I'm one to talk when it comes to such matters... ;) But, I *DO* say it with a great deal of experience in these things! :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, December 28, 2009 6:42 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I *DO* say it with a great deal of experience in these things! :)

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 28, 2009 7:24 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hey, hey, hey! We're back on line! Boy, I missed you guys...and realized how boring my life is without the mental stimulation. Back went out, so I can't do the physical stuff I both want and need to do, so without the computer to sit at, I'm pretty grumpy!

Believe it or not, both Friday before last through that Sunday, and again today (and probably tomorrow and the next day) my being virtually unable to get up off the heat pad is due to my PHYSICAL THERAPIST!! Something she's done in manipulating my back is causing this...one of life's great ironies! Augh!!!

Hope all had a great holiday, and I'm glad to see "us" back...wheeee...first good thing that's happened to me today...

Uh,

Quote:
Nik devoted a fair amount of time to trying to prevent me from discussing topics with others

I'm very confused...when did I do this? Never mind; several times I have said we would have to agree to disagree on stuff Mike, so I'm a-gonna stand by that.

As for anything else, onward and upward!

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:08 AM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

What did I do to tick you off? I missed it completely.

Felt pretty certain I was the attacked here. I was more than fair to Niki, and continued to be friendly and respectful *long* passed where it was due.

I try to treat everyone with respect. Including Niki, the only things I've posted have been in her calling me a liar, and for other people to ignore me, etc. which I let slide for some time before I responded.

Mike,

Thanks, yah, I get that I can't carry on a conversation with Niki at this point. Yes, no one here is captain restraint.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'll answer for Frem by quoting your very first post in this thread, aimed directly at me and about me, because it is simple as pie to go up the thread and find where you began all this. I didn't address you in any way, yet you posted:

Quote:
O2tb would be the other person here with a point: Niki is often on the personal attack. I try to be fair to her because, like PN, she has things to say, but at risk of offending both, I think they're very alike: They're primarily in the propaganda business, and post far too much content for anyone to even care to read. The goal here is (links included: remember when niki demanded everyone read a self-published book?) To bombard people with so much information that they cave under the weight and concede the argument.

The other side, is that either is capable of meaningful discussion.

Now, no one mentioned that John's links are PR pigeon bait. This is of course the underlying truth, which means that the initial personal attack of Niki's is incorrect. When John debates, he debates, when he spams, he's doing SEO off of Haken's back, and a Haken doesn't seem to care, neither should we. But there's really no reason to take any post which is a PR pigeon peck for SEO as a serious argument about anything, and yes, Frem, should be ignored.

But let's be fair, both John and Niki are in the carpetbombing business.

Niki,

If you don't want to be classified along side PN, then stop competing for the spot. Stick to rational arguments.

Sometimes this is you too, but sometimes, you're the text only version of PN's evil twin, or good twin, or anti-twin, or whatever, but it most definitely leaves you wide open for attack. You're almost begging for attack, which, incidentally, is what really defines a troll. Just don't engage in the PN carpet bombing, and skip the personal attacks and people will take you seriously.

Sure, there are people who never contradict you, but those are people who already agree with you. If you want to preach to the choir, go ahead.

But just ask yourself this: How many Jewish members of the forum are won over by Pirate News' arguments? Anyone come up with "Zero"?

Thought so.

Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out that this is a personal attack thread in which you're complaining about personal attacks while, personally, I can't see a lot of difference between the two of you. IMHO, Decide what you want to get in terms of responses, and rethink your methods accordingly.

All this came after repeated nasty very personal attacks on me by O2B. You then "swore off personal attacks".

You probably won't bother to read this, but it is the response to your question above. I'm guessing you probably don't consider what you wrote a personal attack, maybe more friendly advice? I doubt I'm the only one who saw it as attacks, lecturing, judgment, and mischaractarization. Although you seem to consider my response to the above the first (and only?) personal attacks; from the recipient, I beg to differ.

May I respectfully request that if we can't say something nice about/to one another, we don't say anything at all? That includes deriding each other to third parties. Disagreeing with topics is one thing; judging and labeling and the other things you did is quite another. I will abide by what I said above, until and unless you do the same sort of things as you did in that and following posts.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Caveat: I'm a "clarifier", as I've said before, part of the reason I write long posts. Communication is tricky, doubly so on the internet, as we all know. So I try to clarify misconceptions when I see them.

Ergo, I went through every one of my posts in the thread on The Authoritarians (and thanx muchly for finding it, Mike!) to see if, as accused, I had "demanded" that everyone read the book. This is all I found:

Quote:
You'd have to read the entire book to understand what it's about and how he came to his conclusions....

I shouldn't have started this topic without the caveat that I'm addressing it to people who have read or understood what the book is about. Yes, it answered MY questions, but it involves far more than politics, and it's become a debate on politics, or so it seems to me....

I'm not sure if I'm saying that right, or if the book can even be properly debated, without reading it....

I doubt few here have read the book, which is why I posted some relevant passages, to let those who haven't better understand the concept....

You'll just have to read the book yourself to decide how you feel about it, which is what should be done anyway, as, even tho' I'm quoting psssages from it, they don't give the whole picture and I might have unconsciously subjectively left something important out. It's a short-ish book, and I highly recommend it, as well as a big "thank you" to Cavalier for suggesting it; the debate it has sparked has helped me learn a LOT and I think been interesting for those participating in it.

That last was in response to DT posting:

Quote:
Niki, sorry about the threadjack, I don't think that people will have read the book, it's probably not a logical assumption. Everyone gets to participate in the debate, and if these forums have a point it's to boil down core ideas into the shortest text and then discuss the implications, expound upon those...

We had a really wonderful, long debate, both about the book and mostly about the concepts, as each of us viewed them. A lot of my posts had nothing to do with the book, but responded to what others said about authoritarians and authoritarianism, and I agreed with some and disagreed with others.

I just wanted to clarify that one accusation. Just as the one that I wanted to "compete" with PN, it was inaccurate, from my point of view.

DT: I never said you were a liar. I said you might have read or remembered what I posted inaccurately because of a subconscious prejudice against me, and I clarified falsehoods as I found them. I don't believe you deliberately lie about anything, but that doesn't mean I think you are accurate all the time.

And I haven't changed; that wasn't an "earlier" me; if anything, I've had more attacks and have reponded in kind, and sometimes made a snark of my own. I believe it's your perception of me that has changed, not my attitude toward others; tho' my attitude toward you has definitely changed.

There, I cleared that up. That's all I had to say, and my apologies for my lengthy need to clarify the accusation.

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Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:14 AM

JAMERON4EVA

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
www.whale.to/m/disin.html

#26 Post photos of puppies. Everybody loves puppies. This will give you the appearance of being human. (evil laff)

Robot Psyops Make Human Liars Obsolete
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/18/military_robot_psyops

UNited States Air Force Cyber Command
http://www.afcyber.af.mil

www.september911surprise.com
www.myspace.com/countercoup

PN, you psychopathic nutcase. Nice to meet you, i'm a T-triple 8 from the future. Newsflash: Your posts on the end of the world were all wrong. It happened early 2009 when they fired off that reactor to test the THEORY, of the big bang. Good job Homer, good job. (mumbles) Stick my foot up your ass, dumbass.

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

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