The way the Fillibuster has been used by the Republicans this year is not what it was intended for. It's being used to stop EVERYTHING; it's mere threat..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Do away with the Fillibuster?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, January 28, 2010 07:14
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2804
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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The way the Fillibuster has been used by the Republicans this year is not what it was intended for. It's being used to stop EVERYTHING; it's mere threat HAS stopped virtually everything. We'd have health care--a BETTER health care reform bill--if it weren't for the fillibuster and attempts to placate the right into voting for it (which of course was stupid) to avoid a fillibuster.

So, is there anything that can be done? I found this interesting...unfortunately, I have no hope of it becoming reality, and it's mostly only Dems talking about it. But if it's left as it is, what I see is the potential for every minority party in the future bringing the wheels of government to a grinding halt by threat of filibuster. Whaddya think?






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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


..... and you'll believe this until the time the Republicans are in power.

*sigh


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


He doesn't live in the real world...he doesn't live in the real world...

Hey, it's working!



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Wait wait wait. The fillibuster keeps the government from passing stuff, either party...

And you want to get RID of it?

I'd be more concerned about executive powers and the CIA/military being able to go to war without public input and declare states of emergencies. If the legislature is tied up, that's just one less thing to deal with.

If people in your community need help, you're going to find yourself with one very long white beard waiting for the goddamn government to get up off their collective ass. And since when do we need the permission of the insurance industry or the government for civic action?

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Great idea!
America so wants Pelosi-Reid legislation rammed down our throats anyhow, that's the ticket to getting it all done. And they won't even need to bribe their own Party members anymore for their un-needed vote. Americans will say thank you in the Fall of 2010 and 2012.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I seriously doubt anyone will be saying "thank you" to Congress if this gets to be a habit by both parties. The fillibuster DID have meaning, excactly the meaning you gave it, but it DOESN'T anymore, not when it or its mere threat is used to stop ALL legislation! Is that really what you want???

Congress used to have to work at compromise to get bills passed; now there's no compromise, even when the Dems have tried to, there's merely "No!" Giving them the power to say no to everything means nothing gets done.

If the fillibuster meant what it was originally intended to mean, and was used that way, I'd have no problem with it: I never have. But today, the way the Republicans are using it? Hell no!

For all its flaws and idiocies, Congress has given us a lot of good laws--more bad than good, admittedly, but some very important things have come ou of Congress. I don't want the Executive branch to have too much power, or the Judicial (especially after what they just did!), but "no" power at all in Congress is stupid, in my opinion.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:37 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"If the fillibuster meant what it was originally intended to mean, and was used that way, I'd have no problem with it: I never have. But today, the way the Republicans are using it? Hell no!"

Until the Republicans are in power...

:slamming head:

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW


No I mean it....go to reconcilliation, go to making it a "budget" thing only requiring 51 votes...whatever it takes to keep the Pelosi-Reid-Obama dream going! There will be big benefits down the road. I just feel it.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:48 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The way the Fillibuster has been used by the Republicans this year is not what it was intended for....So, is there anything that can be done?...But if it's left as it is, what I see is the potential for every minority party in the future bringing the wheels of government to a grinding halt by threat of filibuster. Whaddya think?


Is this what the filibuster was intended for? Perhaps. The Democrats used it to block Bush Judicial nominations. I disagreed with that use of the filibuster.

It should be noted that the Republicans talked the same way during the last administration. They threatened the 'nuclear option' to pass judicial nominees and to pass other legislation that was being fueled by passions in the public.

The founders considered this an important check, not on the powers of the House or President, but the passions of the moment..."T]here are particular moments in public affairs, when the people stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be the most ready to lament and condemn."

The idea is to until delay proceedings until "reason, justice and truth, can regain their authority over the public mind".

This country is divided, the filibuster can delay action until we can come to a resolution to our impass. If we cannot resolve our disagreement, then the legislation should not be passed.

I would argue that the public mind has resolved the impass. Most people are against the Democrats Health Care plan. It is a law the do not want addressing an issue they feel is not critical and this is reflected in recent elections. It is only our enlightened leaders, those who know what's best for us who push this plan. However, if passage of this plan demands backroom deals and blatant payoffs in order to secure passage, perhaps the filibuster is being used properly in this case.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:59 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Maybe the Democrat leadership should call the Repubs bluff: Every time there's a threatened filibuster, put the issue up for a roll call vote right away. Make it black and white: " We were in favor of this-- those guys opposed it. If this issue was important to you, Mr. John Q. Voter, remember that on Election Day." Might clarify things, pro and con...

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, asshole...the Republicans' current actions are the first time in history that the fillibuster has been used the way they are using it.
Quote:

In the modern filibuster, the senators trying to block a vote do not have to hold the floor and continue to speak as long as there is a quorum. In the past, when one senator became exhausted, another would need to take over to continue the filibuster. Ultimately, the filibuster could be exhausted by a majority who would even sleep in cots outside the Senate Chamber to exhaust the filibusterers. Today, the minority just advises the majority leader that the filibuster is on. All debate on the bill is stopped until either cloture is voted by three-fifths (now 60 votes) of the Senate.

In the 2007-08 session of Congress, Republicans forced 112 cloture votes, nearly doubling the Democrats' record when they were in the minority.

Filibuster was invoked sparingly in less partisan times – an average of once a year in the 1950s, but 139 times by Republicans in 2008.

Wikipedia
Quote:

In the 1950s, the number of cloture motions filed (a proxy for the number of filibusters) averaged one per Congress. By the 93rd Congress (1973-75) that number had jumped to 44. By the 110th Congress (2007-09) it had risen to 139, a record that the 111th Congress (2009-present) is on track to match.

Today it is an accepted fact of life that the Senate can't pass any major legislation without 60 votes. But as recently as two decades ago, all it usually needed was 51. In the January/February Atlantic, James Fallows writes that this change "converts the Senate from the 'saucer' George Washington called it, in which scalding ideas from the more temperamental House might 'cool,' into a deep freeze and a dead weight."

The most widely cited enabler for the recent acceleration was a 1975 Senate rule change—one that, coming at a time when filibusters were on the rise, sought to reduce them by lowering the cloture requirement from 67 to 60 votes. But this fix (combined with a less widely cited earlier procedural change made in 1961) inadvertently increased the filibuster's use by ushering in the so-called "procedural" filibuster, a sort of filibuster-lite that allowed the minority to block legislation without a dissenting senator's having to speechify himself hoarse. In recent years, the worst abusers have been Republicans.

http://www.slate.com/id/2241233/?from=rss



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"No, asshole..."

Is this the bi, or the polar coming out?

Are you speaking as Niki-Hyde? Or Niki-Jekyll?


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with NewOld, I'd like to see filibusters used the way they were in the past. However, the new style seems to make that not possible: "the "procedural" filibuster, a sort of filibuster-lite that allowed the minority to block legislation without a dissenting senator's having to speechify."

I'm not talking about health care specifically; check the record of how MUCH the Republicans have blocked. Also, it's not that the American people don't want health care reform, polls have proven they DO--this bill has been so inflated and compromised that it IS a bad bill. The polls have shown that Americans WANT the public option that was compromised away to placate the Republicans.

It's not health care; it's everything. That's my argument. I guess I stand alone here on the concept that the filibuster as it is used now is wrong. That seems a shame to me. It was supposed to provide a "cooling-off period", it was supposed to encourage compromise. Not any more.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:19 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Also, it's not that the American people don't want health care reform,"

No, you silly woman.. we want insurance reform, if anything. (More, we'd like our freedoms respected again, the government off our backs, and fools out of our business...)

And that doesn't mean the government taking control of a private sector enterprise either.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Utilizing something someone shared as instead a method of attacking a person is a typical tactic of minds like yours. Luckily people like you aren't numerous in the real world, which at least I live in, for all its faults.

Only sickos do things like that, and it's what keeps people from speaking freely on the internet. Thankfully it IS the internet, and you can't hurt me.

Go back to your movie heroes where you belong and leave the adult conversations to the adults, please.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Oooo...I must have destroyed one of her arguments somewhere... little Niki is upset.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... we want insurance reform ..."

And once again, foolish dooood, you are wrong. It's a bad habit of yours. You need to do something about it.

Washington Post
October 20, 2009
"On the issue that has been perhaps the most pronounced flash point in the national debate, 57 percent of all Americans now favor a public insurance option, while 40 percent oppose it. Support has risen since mid-August, when a bare majority, 52 percent, said they favored it. (In a June Post-ABC poll, support was 62 percent.)"

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:36 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The Washington Post? Really? The Washington Post?

Surprised you didnt quote NPR...

Cause, you know... the Washington Post is as fair and as balanced as Fox News.

Good job.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The Democrats used it to block Bush Judicial nominations.
Yes, and Bush nonetheless got more of his nominations passed than pretty much any President in history.

PLUS, the Democrats compromised in the end:
Quote:

By their signatures, the seven Democrats who signed the memorandum agreed that for the remainder of this year and during 2006, “Nominees [to federal judgeships] should only be filibustered under extraordinary circumstances, and each signatory must use his or her own discretion and judgment in determining whether such circumstances exist.”

In return, the seven Republicans pledged not to vote for the rules change (to get rid of the filibuster) while the agreement remains in force.

http://www.nrlc.org/Judicial/FilibusterDeal.html

Note also that this was about judicial nominees, not EVERYTHING, and that at that time, the compromise was reached because the REPUBLICANS were fighting to get rid of the filibuster. Maybe they saw how it was no longer being used as intended; or maybe they just realized they could use it for everything and stop government completely next time. Which they have. They also tried to raise the number of votes for cloture this time around; what a difference from wanting to get rid of an abused, out-of-date practice.

I'm not arguing the Democrats' side; I think it should be abolished because both sides have abused it and will do so even worse in the future, I fear. Everyone's so in favor of letting the minority RULE Congress, I find that sad.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

And that doesn't mean the government taking control of a private sector enterprise either


For the record, that's not what the public option was ever intended to be. And the government is so incompetent that probably private industry would have crushed it anyway.

Though, government taking control of an industry isn't unprecedented, say hi to the the bail-out banks, GM, american automakers, and the utilities industry. None of which were good ideas. Shoulda just let them fail, and people take control of their own utilities.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, Wulf, I'm disgusted by visigoths who have no ability to debate civilly nor have any decent arguments to put forth, so resort to the most childish form of petty personal attacks. You didn't destroy any argument, you just proved you have nothing to contribute and are a baby. You do it all the time; go play with your fantasy heroes, like I said, and let the adults discuss adult things.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Yes, and Bush nonetheless got more of his nominations passed than pretty much any President in history.

[....]at that time, the compromise was reached because the REPUBLICANS were fighting to get rid of the filibuster.



Seems like a pretty good argument FOR having fillibusters to me. Provided you can discourage the executive branch from using czars and the judicial branch to legislate everything instead.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"No, Wulf, I'm disgusted by visigoths who have no ability to debate civilly nor have any decent arguments to put forth, so resort to the most childish form of petty personal attacks. You didn't destroy any argument, you just proved you have nothing to contribute and are a baby. You do it all the time; go play with your fantasy heroes, like I said, and let the adults discuss adult things."

Lol

Was it the BiPolar thing? It was, wasn't it?

Caught you good and proper in the bullshit you tell yourself and you can't take it.

So, while you may be ok with some Big Daddy government taking care of you... us ADULTS, who can take care of ourselves just fine thanks, dont need YOUR opinion.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:45 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Sorry to say it, Niki, but I'm against getting rid of the filibuster, or going with "the nuclear option" as they call it. Think about it this way, if it helps: Dick Cheney was against doing this when the Republicans were in power. DICK CHENEY WAS AGAINST UTILIZING THIS POWER BECAUSE OF FEAR IT WOULD BE ABUSED.


And as Wulfie has pointed out - rightly, believe it or not - the Democrats WILL be out of power at some point. The first things Republicans did when they got the chance after FDR, was limit the President to two full terms (LBJ could have run for a second "full" term, because he'd technically only served ONE term, and part of JFK's term). They did that out of spite and short-sightedness, in a fit of pique, because they wanted to insure that the Democrats never got to have another 4-term president. And it almost immediately bit them in the ass, in the form of Eisenhower having to leave after two terms, despite wide support amongst both Democrats and Republicans. And it bit them harder when Reagan was forced to leave after two terms as a very popular (among some, anyway) president.

So I'm VEEERRRRRRYYY leery of doing away with the filibuster. Yes, it's being abused. No, it's not a new thing. It's a *RECENT* thing, in that it's been ramping up and the abuse has become more widespread, but the Democrats were using it more and more (or at least threatening to) during the Dubya Bush years. It's a valid parliamentary procedure, but what's changed is that we no longer make them actually stand up there and FILIBUSTER, talking non-stop for days on end, with only very short breaks allowed. Now we let them SAY they're filibustering, and we don't shut 'em down when they don't follow the parliamentary rules of the process. Let's start by just getting back to where we were, and being sticklers for the rules we have in place.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The problem with a 2 party system.. you've GOT to have the "nuclear option". It prevents one side from getting out of hand.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Cause, you know... the Washington Post is as fair and as balanced as Fox News."

Of course there was that ABC report where 62 % favored it that was mentioned in the quote. But I forgot myself ... you don't know how to read very well. (And heaven help us, you actually think you're teaching others how to read.)

So, for people who DO know how to read:

June 12 to 16, found that 72 percent of those questioned supported a government-administered insurance plan — something like Medicare for those under 65 ... (New York Times/CBS News poll)

78% percent said that a pubic option was either extremely important of very important. (Survey USA)

60% said they wanted a public option under any healthcare reform legislation. (Thompson Reuters Survey)

76% said a public option was either extremely or quite important. (Wall Street Journal)

I'm betting that Wulfie won't be able to read this either, btw.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:55 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Good job Rue... quoting left-leaning institutions.

But where are the links?

Its all well and good you make a point, backing it up with stats... but prove it.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:57 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The Wall Street Journal is left-leaning ?

Oh, I'm betting you didn't read that. Or understand it.

You really should learn to read better. Just a friendly word of advice.

As for your logic: "quoting left-leaning institutions ... prove it."

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:59 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Still waiting Rue.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:02 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


For what ? You CLAIMED that my figures came from left-leaning institutions. You have backed that up with absolutely nothing. Meanwhile, I have demanded nothing from you. So I at least am not a hypocrite. Try living by your own demands, doooood.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:05 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"99% of people polled at FFF.net think Rue is full of shit.." -Wulfenstar Times

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You don't like the Washington Post? The polls were everywhere, so here's a few others that, if you were an adult, you might pay attention to:

Quote:

Gallup poll finds 56% of Americans in favor and 33% opposed to Congress' passing major healthcare reform legislation this year.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-th
is-year.aspx
respondents remain dissatisfied with the current state of health-care delivery and supportive of reform in principle. Forty-six percent of respondents said it was "very important" that Congress and the President pass major health reform in the next few months, and an additional 23% said it was "somewhat important." Only 28% found the immediate effort either not very or not at all important. In a separate question, more Americans said it would be better to pass "major reform" to health care (55%) rather than "minor adjustments" (43%).

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1913426,00.html

There are tons out there, you only have to look. They don't favor the health care reform bill AS IT IS NOW, but they want reform. Asked about a public option:
Quote:

A new poll finds that 59 percent of the populace supports the inclusion of a public option, which would compete in the marketplace with private insurers.

Only 29 percent opposed it, signaling an unusually high 30-point favorable rating.

http://rawstory.com/2009/2009/12/sixty-percent-americans-support-publi
c-option/
poll released today by the New York Times and CBS News serves as a reminder that the full-blown public option that has been abandoned by the Senate is still quite popular with the American public as 59 percent would favor a public option.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/144484/poll:_strong_majority_of_ame
ricans_still_'favor'_a_public_option?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet
thinking specifically about the health insurance plans available to most Americans, would you favor or oppose creating a public health insurance option administered by the federal government that would compete with plans offered by private health insurance companies?"

Date Favor/Oppose/Unsure

1/8-10/10 54 46 1
12/2-3/09 53 46 1
11/13-15/09 56 42 2
10/30 - 11/1/09 55 44 1
10/16-18/09 61 38 1
8/28-31/09 55 41 1
http://pollingreport.com/health.htm to a recent survey conducted by Thomson Reuters Corp, many Americans say they would like to see a “public option” included in the health insurance reform. Of the roughly 3,000 participants in the survey, slightly less than 60 percent said that they would be in favor of seeing a government-sponsored insurance option.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1794998/survey_americans_in_favor_
of_public_option
/




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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:07 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Cause, you know... the Washington Post is as fair and as balanced as Fox News."

Of course there was that ABC report where 62 % favored it that was mentioned in the quote. But I forgot myself ... you don't know how to read very well. (And heaven help us, you actually think you're teaching others how to read.)

So, for people who DO know how to read:

June 12 to 16, found that 72 percent of those questioned supported a government-administered insurance plan — something like Medicare for those under 65 ... (New York Times/CBS News poll)

78% percent said that a pubic option was either extremely important of very important. (Survey USA)

60% said they wanted a public option under any healthcare reform legislation. (Thompson Reuters Survey)

76% said a public option was either extremely or quite important. (Wall Street Journal)

I'm betting that Wulfie won't be able to read this either, btw.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


Polls from June mean nothing now. They didn't get it done when they had some support before the Summer, now it's way way down. 8 dem reps have announced they won't seek re-election, and one has actually switched to Republican. The guy yesterday said he thinks his party is suicidal. Biden's son dropped out of the Senate race in Delaware. Dodd is retiring, and Reid is toast in Nevada. New Gallop Poll says 70+% now glad Dem supermajority is gone. But nevermind all that, libs just know what's right for everyone I guess.

From Rassmussen:
Date
Favor ..top #
Oppose ...bottom #

Jan 20-21
40%
58%

Jan 16-17
38%
56%

Jan 8-9
40%
55%

Jan 3
42%
52%

Dec 29
39%
58%

Dec 27
40%
55%

Dec 18-19
41%
55%

Dec 12-13
40%
56%

Dec 4-5
41%
51%

Nov 29
41%
53%

Nov 21-22
38%
56%

Nov 13-14
47%
49%

Nov 7-8
45%
52%

Oct 30-31
42%
54%

Oct 24-25
45%
51%

Oct 16-17
42%
54%

Oct 10-11
44%
50%

Oct 2-3
46%
50%

Sep 24-25
41%
56%

Sep 16-17
43%
56%

Sep 15-16
44%
53%

Sep 14-15
42%
55%

Sep 13-14
45%
52%

Sep 12-13
51%
46%

Sep 11-12
48%
48%

Sep 10-11
47%
49%

Sep 9-10
46%
51%

Sept 8-9
44%
53%

Aug 25-26
43%
53%

Aug 9-10
42%
53%

Jul 26-27
47%
49%

Jul 20-21
44%
53%

Jul 10-11
46%
49%

Jun 27-28
50%
45%


From Gallup :

New Poll Shows Most Americans Want A Healthcare Bill That The GOP Can Endorse
January 26, 2010 by Personal Liberty News Desk
According to a new Gallup poll, the majority of Americans believe that President Obama and other Democratic leaders should postpone debate on the current healthcare reform bill and consider alternative legislation that would garner more GOP support.

The poll, conducted by USA Today, found that 55 percent of those surveyed feel that Congress should suspend work on the healthcare bill that was almost assured passage before Democrats lost a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate following the election of Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown on Tuesday.

Approximately 72 percent of respondents felt that the result in Massachusetts "reflects frustrations shared by many Americans, and the president and members of Congress should pay attention to it," according to the news source.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:10 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


""99% of people polled at FFF.net think Rue is full of shit.." -Wulfenstar Times"

And here we have an example of a hypocrite being unable to respond with any semblance of reality.

Still waiting for you to prove that my polls were from left-leaning institutions.

Up to now, apparently you have no sources.

GO BOY !!! Fetch !!!

Prove to us you can do anything other than launch personal attacks. Show us you can read. Show us you can think. Show us you are not a complete hypocrite.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:12 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Rue/Niki

Tell it to the folks in Mass...




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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Jong

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

People really did vote for hope and change. That Obama and the democrats blew it big time with business as usual is no news to anyone.

When it comes to health care reform, support dropped as the public option was dropped. That is also no news to anyone.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:14 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"No, Wulf, I'm disgusted by visigoths who have no ability to debate civilly nor have any decent arguments to put forth, so resort to the most childish form of petty personal attacks. You didn't destroy any argument, you just proved you have nothing to contribute and are a baby. You do it all the time; go play with your fantasy heroes, like I said, and let the adults discuss adult things."

Lol

Was it the BiPolar thing? It was, wasn't it?

Caught you good and proper in the bullshit you tell yourself and you can't take it.

So, while you may be ok with some Big Daddy government taking care of you... us ADULTS, who can take care of ourselves just fine thanks, dont need YOUR opinion.



Wulf, sorry to say, but that's kind of a cheap shot, just as when people speculate you have PTSD in regards to some of the racial tension you feel. Let's leave mental illness out of this, we're all nuts in some way or another, and we've all suffered for it. This isn't anything to make fun of, nor is it anything to make fun of when a person needs help for their problems.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Wulf, sorry to say, but that's kind of a cheap shot, just as when people speculate you have PTSD in regards to some of the racial tension you feel. Let's leave mental illness out of this, we're all nuts in some way or another, and we've all suffered for it. This isn't anything to make fun of, nor is it anything to make fun of when a person needs help for their problems."

Fair enough.

I'll play nice for as long as I can.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike, that is exactly my point:
Quote:

the Democrats WILL be out of power at some point
I don't want to see THEM using it the way the Republicans have been, either. I think a bad precedent is being set, and I don't want it to continue, no matter WHO uses it.
Quote:

it's been ramping up and the abuse has become more widespread,
Yes, and while, as was mentioned before, I, too, would like to see it forced, it won't be, so it might only get worse.

Quote:

Was it the BiPolar thing? It was, wasn't it?
No, sad little man, it was your need to use that because you have nothing of any substance to contribute to the conversation. It shows how pitiful your debating skills are, and how despicable YOU are. You just proved it again by your post to Rue; I don't have to say what an idiot you are, you say it well enough yourself.

I'm through responding to you; I forgot my mantra, dammit, but remember it now...

He doesn't live in the real world, he doesn't live in the real world...

Good discussion, everyone else. You MIGHT even convince me, eventually; I agree that the filibuster is a good parliamentary procedure, but I fear that it, like so many other things, is being/will be corrupted to the point where it has only negative value. Time will prove me right or wrong, I know Congress won't do away with it, both sides like it too much!

By the way, the polls I cited were all recent, just FYI...all in December 2010.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:18 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Jong

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

People really did vote for hope and change. That Obama and the democrats blew it big time with business as usual is no news to anyone.

When it comes to health care reform, support dropped as the public option was dropped. That is also no news to anyone.

BTW - when TWSJ was polling 76% percent in favor of the public option, and NO OTHER POLL was below 60%, Rasmussen was 40%. That makes their number suspect. There is a very good statistical and methodological discussion at fivethirtyeight.com about the problems with Rasmussen's polls.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:22 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Jong

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

People really did vote for hope and change. That Obama and the democrats blew it big time with business as usual is no news to anyone.

When it comes to health care reform, support dropped as the public option was dropped. That is also no news to anyone.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


Not trying to necessarily say anything; just putting up historical and new polls on the subject. Make of them as you will. A lot of the results have to do with how the question is asked, but generally Rassmussen is the most accurate...only pollster who got Obama election exactly right to the tenth of a point; also got Brown's numbers predicted right. Gallup's good too. Anyuthing with CBS, Fox, Wash Post, or other suspect motives I don't pay attention to.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:25 AM

BYTEMITE


Thanks Wulf. I know it can be hard, sometimes around here we do get into hammering at people. And you get hammered a lot, and it's natural to want to snap back. That's why sometimes I go away for a couple hours before I make a post, so I can be sure I'm in a state where I can carry on the argument as a conversation, as opposed to a flame war.

Respecting people isn't easy when you can't see their faces, but it's important to have respect despite disagreement. Otherwise people get chased away, which is bad for board long-term survival. I know people sometimes unfairly stereotype you because the arguments you use are often familiar or that you won't consider other points of view, but then ALL of us subscribe to an ideology, and all of us repeat such points that we've learned that supports what we believe. I don't hold that against you, and though your opinions are unpopular, I respect your right to say them.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


BTW - I find the fillibuster to be very much like California's 'supermajority' (2/3) requirement for passing the budget. In other words, a perfectly bad idea.

While the fillibuster in theory might provide time for reflection on hasty legislation, in practice a small minority can block necessary legislation. Wielded with malice, it is a powerful tool for obstructionists who only want to make the 'other side' lose.

Either they should lose the fillibuster - or the democrats should ALSO play the game. Otherwise, it's worse than a joke.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... but generally Rassmussen is the most accurate ..."

Actually, 538 was most accurate.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:29 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Thanks Wulf. I know it can be hard, sometimes around here we do get into hammering at people. And you get hammered a lot, and it's natural to want to snap back. That's why sometimes I go away for a couple hours before I make a post, so I can be sure I'm in a state where I can carry on the argument as a conversation, as opposed to a flame war."

But, its so much fun to give as good as you get. :)

To shove the bullshit, the lies, the purposeful propaganda right back down THEIR throats... or at the very least.. to slip the knife in good and proper.

Then stand back as they sputter and try and reciprocate...

Laughing.

But ok.. I'll be nice. Hell, most of my posts start out being nice.. they just get dragged down into the gutter.

But these fools forget I can fight in the gutter better than they can.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:30 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"... but generally Rassmussen is the most accurate ..."

Actually, 538 was most accurate.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


Really? They predicted Obama's win to less than a tenth of a point? I must stand corrected then.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:35 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


They also got all the states right too !

Oh, I just wanted to post this re: the public option specifically. It's from Dec 2009, which is not that long ago, and is one of the polls I cited above:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B20OL20091203
Thomson Reuters PULSE Healthcare Survey
* Believe in public option: 59.9 percent yes, 40.1 percent no


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Rue, good point; it's EXACTLY like our California problem, and part of why our budgets are always late, leaving people unplaid, and on and on and on... I'm glad you see the problem, and you said it much more succinctly than I:
Quote:

While the fillibuster in theory might provide time for reflection on hasty legislation, in practice a small minority can block necessary legislation. Wielded with malice, it is a powerful tool for obstructionists who only want to make the 'other side' lose.
But I don't want to see the Dems play the same game, I want NEITHER to be able to play it.

Last time and I'm outta here where you're concerned Wulf: You don't give as good as you get, your offerings are pathetic; you don't shove anything down anyone's throat, resorting to personal attacks pisses people off, but means nothing; I've never seen anyone sputter, and I've never seen anyone have any trouble reciprocating when we get goaded to get down in the gutter WITH you. You provoke, that's all, and again, it means nothing except to blow up your ego TO YOU, but nobody else. You can't debate on merits, you can only spit up from that gutter. It is the "why" of how you get hammered so much.



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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:45 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"You provoke, that's all..."

Thanks for noticing, sweetie.

Might even say, I provoke to further the discussion. To broaden horizons, say...

Maybe that just me tho, Im sure.

lol

Eta: Or hell, to make it harder for you, and others. You've got to sharpen your views and have them make sense before I'll leave you alone.

lol



Then again, I could just be an asshole who likes fucking with your head and driving you even more crazy.


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Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"I provoke to further the discussion. To broaden horizons, say"

"You've got to sharpen your views and have them make sense before I'll leave you alone"

"Then again, I could just be an asshole" HE GOT IT! For one brief moment, Wulf touched down on Earth...we should have a party...well, if we gave a damn...




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