Words to the wise from Rahlmaclaren: by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Words to the wise from Rahlmaclaren:

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, February 14, 2010 09:35
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VIEWED: 1144
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Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:42 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rahl, I gave up on that thread yesterday--my "time zone" thing is whacky, so I can't tell if it was late morning or afternoon when I did, after calling for it to be allowed to drift down into oblivion a couple of times. Then I gave up and went away, 'cuz nobody was discussing much of anything else.

Given that I flatly refuse to add to thta thread any further, and only popped in to read what's new there because it came to the top again, I'll post this here: I agree with you 100%, and I thank you.

Quote:
While all the "mature adults" are in here dickin' about, there are actual events being neglected. This thread stopped being funny 50 posts ago.

A brave athlete died an easily preventible death today, on international TV, and the wordy people of this site can't seem to find the time to care.

Kwicko, Chrisisall, Niki, Fremd, *Gino, I usually agree with whatever you guys/gals say, but All of your stocks are dropping in my book.

I hope nobody jumps down my throat and claims I'm trying to "control" the conversation, I just thought it was well spoken enough to highlight.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:06 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Why should we be concerned with the death of one athlete when the death of thousands of Iraqi / Afghan civilians and hundreds of British / U.S. service personel passes us by?

Maybe we should re-think our priorities?
Am I being callus or too near the truth?

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

There are so many things happening in the world around us today, surely we can multi-task enough to think about any number of them, shouldn't we?

Yes, the wars we're in are important, and we discuss them all the time, but we also pay attention to news that happens around us and discuss that, too. Anything wrong with that?

I don't think you're being callus, just maybe having too narrow a view of everything?

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 9:02 AM

KIRKULES

I wonder how many Americans were killed in traffic accidents during the opening ceremony of the Olympics. If you assume 50,000 automobile death per year, by my calculations 11 Americans probably died in the first 2 hours. I guess they weren’t "brave" because they didn’t propel themselves down an icy track at 70 miles per hour, unless of course they were driving in the New York or Washington DC areas lately.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 9:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Just a useless, stupid remark; all death is sad, that's no reason to dismiss a young person's tragic and unnecessary death because other deaths occur everyday. Doing so speaks more of you than anything else.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 9:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Niki - while perhaps there was a point to that, the irony of seeing immediately after Rahls post, in the thread concerning the athlete, an insensitive and nasty comment by a certain someone shouldn't be lost on you, neither.

Oldenglanddry nails it, although in respect to Rahl I posted my two pence worth, such as it is...

While tragic, the luge accident isn't something I can do a whole lot about, other than offer sympathy, but on the other hand, speaking out against the foolishness of offering "freedom" from the barrel of a gun, trying to pry open minds and get them to see the tremendous consequences, exposing and excoriating the mindset and beliefs that lead to such tremendous carnage and destruction - I can *DO* that, as well as offer a little bit of perspective and understanding cause even though an outsider, my long association with RAWA has taught me quite a bit about the people and cultures involved.

Hell, to be blunt about it, I even know the how, why and where the preconditions for such a jingoistic, authoritatian mindset come from, and have done my utmost to work against that almost from the moment of that discovery, cause the seeds of our own destruction both as a people, and potentially as a species, are planted in that toxic soil.

And when not ENOUGH was done, when not ENOUGH folk stood up and spoke out, and the bitter fruits, or more appropriately, nuts, of that weed climbed into positions of political power in this country once again, because time after time we fail to finish the job, the human cost was more than I could stomach watching, you wanna talk about tragedy, how bout the fact that the lady who drew me that sketch, one of RAWA's best english speakers and translators, was "collateral damage" from one of our bombs shortly thereafter, or how many of those poor bastards came back from that mess with missing limbs, PTSD and adjustment problems no one wants to hear about cause it gets in the way of the hero-myths that whole foolishness is based on, something which the prosthetics design folk I'm affiliated with have been extremely valuable in helping with, since some of them served and I have some experience with decompression counselling myself, that I can do something about.

Not to mention come monday we'll be trying to get some folks with enough clout to pull the chain up short on the rabid lunatics of the DHS and TSA so they don't have a damned canary about a muslim relief effort shipping solar panels and relief supplies to some schools over there, and we've been asking around concerning solar stills for the production and collection of clean water, since there's a few low tech solutions which look kind of promising.

And while not immediately apparent, and only just beginning to have the slightest effect, all the lives positively touched by stepping in before they become twisted into darkness, all those turned away from walking down the dark roads of bitterness, hatred, intolerance and violence, that has an impact, because the key to breaking the seemingly endless cycle of violence is to not mess people up between the ears to where participating seems like a good idea if not the proper solution - that, I can do something about.

And while I might accompany it with a knock upside the head in the case of some folk, I do take Ghandi at his word and try reason first, any time it looks like it might work, even when it is the more difficult path or unpleasant to try, and sure, there's folks who cannot be reasoned with, but allowing their reckless hate to go unchallenged isn't quite the good idea it might sound, since authoritarian mindsets see such civility as weakness and will redouble their efforts and encourage others besides, something I would really rather not see happen here.

So I really have to ask, what would you have me DO about it ?
Just shut up and go away, so as not to offend anyone by speaking out against hatred and intolerance, while everyone turns a blind eye to it right up till such folk climb back up into the seat of power and finish destroying us ?

Lemme ask you this, any of you, all of you.
Have you ever checked your hand, not stood up, not spoke out, not helped someone, because you feared legal or social consequences to yourself, and then had to come back around and face, in the ugliest, most possibly horrifying way, the REAL consequences of that action on a very personal level ?

If you ever have, you might understand why I feel the way I do about it.

-Frem

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I still see room for discussion of many of the events happening in our world, and nothing wrong with noting the passing of a young person needlessly. Doesn't in any way negate my caring about everything else; and actually, which is worse, talking about that or lengthening a truly stupid flame war? That's all he or I were talking about.

As to your question what you can do about it, obviously nothing. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong in noting it; this is RWED, isn't it? It's a real-world event.

As to

Quote:
Have you ever checked your hand, not stood up, not spoke out, not helped someone, because you feared legal or social consequences to yourself

can't answer the second part because no, I've never checked my hand, stood up, spoken out or helped someone. Whether right or wrong, my brain isn't fast enough to catch up with my instincts in such cases...luckily, I've never had to face the consequences you spoke of, so I'm not relevant to your question.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
I hope nobody jumps down my throat and claims I'm trying to "control" the conversation, I just thought it was well spoken enough to highlight.

No jumping here. I happen to think Rahl and you are both right. Not that I won't still be snarking aplenty, but I can definitely see what you're saying.

Be nice if we had the one thread for everyone who wants to join in on "Snark Week", and all the other threads for actual conversations, but I doubt that will hold for long.

But you're definitely not wrong for trying.

Bear with us, and have patience.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:10 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Just a useless, stupid remark; all death is sad, that's no reason to dismiss a young person's tragic and unnecessary death because other deaths occur everyday. Doing so speaks more of you than anything else.

It may seem cold to you that I find this athletes death less tragic than your average auto accident, but it's not because I don't have compassion for the athlete and his family. He chose to put himself at great personal risk to do something he loved to do. We should all be so lucky to die doing something we love. Maybe for you that would be typing on the internet while the house burns down around you, and if that’s your choice your death is less tragic than if you had died trying to escape the fire. For me as long as I have a cold beer in my hand I'm good to go at any time.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:14 AM

LITTLEBIRD

What a powerful post Frem! Yes, we need to speak out and do all we can to break these destructive mindsets.

As I said in another thread, and this may sound simplistic, but hubby and I sponsor a young woman in an orphanage over there. IF, they are left in peace, they will help her get a scholarship and go on to fulfill her dream of becoming a doctor. Also, when the boys leave the orphanage they have learned to respect women and treat them with dignity. They make sure of it!!! When they go back out into the community they start to make ripples.

I know not everyone can do the things you do to create change in the world Frem, you have your unique way of dealing with situations, but for the rest of us, supporting a child or two is something I would encourage if possible. It does make a difference!

Also, supporting RAWA financially or any other way you can is an excellent idea.

Just my two cents.

Also, condolences to the Olympian and his family.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Alas, Birdie, you wanna be real, REAL careful with that kind of thing..

The Federales have a serious hardon for muslim charities of any kind, helped along by the mindboggling rabid hatred our financial sector has for islamic banking (which has much, MUCH stricter provisions against usury) which most of that money is routed through at one point or another.

What they've done to Haddad and others was shameful, downright criminal, and has encouraged a certain reluctance on behalf of americans to involve themselves even in relief efforts, something I believe every bit as intentional as those cluster bomblets which looked near-identical to food packages, and for the same reasons.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/bif-m02.shtml
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=6041

Bear in mind that the mess with Haddad happened more or less down the street from me, and was one of the triggers for the virulent, outright hatred of the jackboots in this whole region, which has over time lead to an almost anarchist sentiment, to where anyone bearing a badge is considered (most often correctly) to be slime.

Anyhows, it's almost inevitable that RAWA is sooner or later gonna be labelled a terrorist org by the State Dept as a sop to their fundamentalist puppets, and their schools dubbed "terrorist training camps", with the help of their propaganda arms like Faux "news" and press shills - UNLESS some things happen to screw up the works in a different direction and give em more important things to worry about, OR, the folks in DC grow a brain and start acting like decent human beings...
I know which of those imma put money on.

So if you wish to support relief efforts, make sure if at all possible to do so in a way that doesn't lead back to you.

Not trying to discourage you, Birdie, since we're workin hard enough on trying to keep that act of stupidity from happening, but the possibility must be addressed cause it's a very real one.

-Frem

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:02 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Just a useless, stupid remark; all death is sad, that's no reason to dismiss a young person's tragic and unnecessary death because other deaths occur everyday. Doing so speaks more of you than anything else.

It may seem cold to you that I find this athletes death less tragic than your average auto accident, but it's not because I don't have compassion for the athlete and his family. He chose to put himself at great personal risk to do something he loved to do. We should all be so lucky to die doing something we love. Maybe for you that would be typing on the internet while the house burns down around you, and if that’s your choice your death is less tragic than if you had died trying to escape the fire. For me as long as I have a cold beer in my hand I'm good to go at any time.

Do you suppose if a big fat fucker dies at his kitchen table with a slab of roast beef lodged in his throat, that anyone ever goes, "Y'know, he died doing what he loved. That big bastard loved to eat, and he died as he lived, choking it down."? I don't often hear people say it of junkies, either. "Yeah, ol' Tracks there, he fuckin' loved him some heroin, and he damn sure died doing what he loved. Look, the needle's still hanging out of his arm!"

Sorry, but I just find it humorous to think that people dying "doing what they love" is somehow better than them dying in a plane crash or something more mundane.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:46 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Just a useless, stupid remark; all death is sad, that's no reason to dismiss a young person's tragic and unnecessary death because other deaths occur everyday. Doing so speaks more of you than anything else.

It may seem cold to you that I find this athletes death less tragic than your average auto accident, but it's not because I don't have compassion for the athlete and his family. He chose to put himself at great personal risk to do something he loved to do. We should all be so lucky to die doing something we love. Maybe for you that would be typing on the internet while the house burns down around you, and if that’s your choice your death is less tragic than if you had died trying to escape the fire. For me as long as I have a cold beer in my hand I'm good to go at any time.

Do you suppose if a big fat fucker dies at his kitchen table with a slab of roast beef lodged in his throat, that anyone ever goes, "Y'know, he died doing what he loved. That big bastard loved to eat, and he died as he lived, choking it down."? I don't often hear people say it of junkies, either. "Yeah, ol' Tracks there, he fuckin' loved him some heroin, and he damn sure died doing what he loved. Look, the needle's still hanging out of his arm!"

Sorry, but I just find it humorous to think that people dying "doing what they love" is somehow better than them dying in a plane crash or something more mundane.

I do actually think your fat bastard example is a bit tragic because if he had just chewed his red meat properly he'd still be around.

The junkie one may or may not be tragic depending on the situation. If the fat bastard didn’t choke to death, but instead was hit by a bus, at least his dying thought wouldn’t be "I wish I’d had roast beef instead of the tofu". I do see your point though, in your example he probably wished he'd had the tofu.
I just think some methods of death stand out as saying that the person was living their life to the fullest and taking risk is a part of that usually.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:53 PM

HKCAVALIER

What's interesting to me about all this is seeing when people notice another person's humanity. The movie Saving Private Ryan is a classic instance of this peculiar phenomenon. The war machine takes young men like Private Ryan and grinds them into so much meat every goddamn day without a thought; but in this one instance, the mother had sent 3 sons to war and 2 of them just died, so suddenly, the mother's presumptive grief wakes up the top brass to the reality that this particular Private is a human being: a precious, unique and necessary person. What do you do with such precious, unique and necessary beings? Well, you get 'em out of a goddamn war zone, that's what! So they send a squad of soldiers to bring him out and send him home.

It's one of the most profound ironies I can think of that each squad member is just as human, just as precious, unique and necessary as Ryan, but neither they nor the top brass recognize that. They're just saving Private Ryan.

Or (and gods forgive me for mentioning it, but it's on topic) when Jack Murtha was alive and well, he was fodder for so much acrimony and spite. But then he dies and his humanity becomes the most important part about him and so the very same person who was reviling him in life, has some generous words at his passing. Some folks see that as hypocritical, but that's just how people are, so much of the time, isn't it? Jack Murtha was firmly outside AURaptor's monkey sphere until he died and then his shared mortality was all that was left of him and AURaptor saw a fallen human being.

I think America is cursed with its isolation. We really know nothing about modern warfare and its aftermath. We have no burned out cities, no tanks patrolling our streets. 3,000 people die in one morning and we go absolutely batshit and feel the need to destroy a couple countries out of hurt and rage. What's a couple countries full of barbaric foreigners to the average American? Theatre, mostly. A tragic, distant battle field where we imagine our sons and daughters proving themselves.

Every day that we continue our wars fills me with disgust. I've been filled with disgust every fuckin' day for 8 years or so. You gotta get used to it, suffer some kind of moral exhaustion. So, people bite and claw at each other over the internet, doesn't surprise me at all. There are far, far worse things to do with the hurt and rage we feel, things being reported every night on the news. Remember when 4 American's soldiers dying in one day over there was a big deal? Those were the days, right? So yes, there are far worse things we could be doing. But then, the flipside is true as well. There are much better things to do with our time.

Mary and I went to see the movie The Blind Side last week (not bad at all) and when we got out to the car, Mary broke down in tears. She said, "I so needed that right now. I so needed to see a story about people just behaving decently with one another, just making the humane choice rather than the shitty, shitty choices that people keep making nowadays."

Decency can be rewarding too, my fellow RWEDers. To trust and act with compassion, to look at others through the eyes of empathy, are strictly unilateral choices. If we don't make them, who will, and when? The world we desire to see must first be generated in our hearts and then we must act to make it real. It all starts with us, each of us, right now.

Thanks Niki, Thanks Rahl.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 4:45 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, Cavalier, beautifully put!

And, you know, I have yet to see "Saving Private Ryan" and probably never will, SPECIFICALLY because of what you wrote! It struck me immediately, too, that I'm sure some of them died, all to save one man. There's sacrifice and all good things in that, unquestionably, but it struck me as it struck you, so not something I would "enjoy".

But I've NEVER heard anyone voice those thoughts before; thank you.

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 5:13 PM

CHRISISALL

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The world we desire to see must first be generated in our hearts and then we must act to make it real. It all starts with us, each of us, right now.

Important. Thank you.

The properly shocked & awed Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

That started with me a long time ago, HKCav...

But thanks once again for sayin some of the things I can never manage to find words for, much less put into them.

-F

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Chris, you just put into eloquent words and concise terms what the buddhist way is. I wish we all lived by at least that part of it; imagine how different the world would be...!

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 9:18 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Niki,

I wouldn't strike Saving Private Ryan off your list for that. Thing is, Spielberg gets what the movie is about. The irony is never lost on him. Secondly, you'd miss Tom Hanks finest performance of his life. Casting Hanks as this burnt out husk of a very decent man is a stroke of genius. We all know Tom Hanks--he's charming, funny, totally harmless and in this movie that man is destroyed by the war and what we get in his place, though badass and charismatic, is breathtakingly sad. If you admired Schindler's List at all, you should see this movie which is at least as good.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thanx but no thanx.

Haven't watched Schindler's List either. No longer interested in movies that go over the same material again and again. They may be great, but it's my taste to see new stuff and not be depressed.

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