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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think most of the conspiracy theories around attribute far too much organisational capacity, long term planning ability, forethought and intelligence to government. Having worked in government or semi government jobs for years, I just don't but that they are capable or clever enough to do such things.That being said, any organisation, government or otherwise is capable of corruption and cover ups, it's just that the plots tend to be less fantastical and more depressingly common place.

Anybody else get large areas of grey screen on these threads from time to time *cue spooky music*

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think most of the conspiracy theories around attribute far too much organisational capacity, long term planning ability, forethought and intelligence to government. Having worked in government or semi government jobs for years, I just don't but that they are capable or clever enough to do such things.That being said, any organisation, government or otherwise is capable of corruption and cover ups, it's just that the plots tend to be less fantastical and more depressingly common place.

Anybody else get large areas of grey screen on these threads from time to time *cue spooky music*

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Originally posted by Littlebird:
I'm willing to entertain that this might not have been the government. I just don't have any other explanation for the military bases involved in my journey. That plus going through lots of FOIA documents to try and get to the truth and talking to other survivors and some professionals along the way.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:



Same for you, Birdie, learn to laugh at it - by fearing this crap you give it power, power over you, power over your actions, to quote Wendy, you DO NOT HAVE TO BE AFRAID, stand up, refuse to be, point and LAUGH, for ridicule is the weapon by which YOU have power, the power to deprive THEM of the fear and credibility they *need* in order to convince fools to take orders from them.

Without it, they got nothing

-Frem

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

along the lines of an "enhanced aggression program" set up to make troops more aggressive under combat conditions, something they've been playin at on and off for a hundred years

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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Originally posted by Littlebird:
I'm willing to entertain that this might not have been the government. I just don't have any other explanation for the military bases involved in my journey. That plus going through lots of FOIA documents to try and get to the truth and talking to other survivors and some professionals along the way.

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You won't find shit under FOIA, William Colby torched it all just before taking that little boat ride, doll.

I *can* however explain the military bases, cause they were operating something at the time along the lines of an "enhanced aggression program" set up to make troops more aggressive under combat conditions, something they've been playin at on and off for a hundred years, but I doubt there was much if any direct involvement other than the jackasses dumping otherwise "unsuitable" potentials on those military programs as possibly still useful in that way.

-F

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Originally posted by Littlebird:

Oh dear, I think I just trashed whatever credibility I might have been starting to acquire on this board. I'm willing to entertain that this might not have been the government. I just don't have any other explanation for the military bases involved in my journey. That plus going through lots of FOIA documents to try and get to the truth and talking to other survivors and some professionals along the way.

Maybe RWED was not the place to talk about these personal issues. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by Littlebird:

Oh dear, I think I just trashed whatever credibility I might have been starting to acquire on this board. I'm willing to entertain that this might not have been the government. I just don't have any other explanation for the military bases involved in my journey. That plus going through lots of FOIA documents to try and get to the truth and talking to other survivors and some professionals along the way.

Maybe RWED was not the place to talk about these personal issues. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

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You haven't ruffled any of my feathers, as you are entitled to speak about your experiences and express your views as you wish. And as I don't religiously read through every thread on this board, I seem to have missed references to your personal experiences.

I was speaking generally, that there seems to be an increasing outlet of conspiracy theories on the net which stretch credulity of any over the top political thriller, but people seem to buy them lock, stock and barrel. That to me seems to be more sheep like behaviour than those who can say think through scenarios logocally.

Me, I'm a big believer in Occham's Razor. This guy had a grudge, believed that he reached the end of the road and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. He signifies nothing more than an example how much damage angry people can do to those around them, loved ones and strangers alike.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I think most of the conspiracy theories around attribute far too much organisational capacity, long term planning ability, forethought and intelligence to government. Having worked in government or semi government jobs for years, I just don't but that they are capable or clever enough to do such things.That being said, any organisation, government or otherwise is capable of corruption and cover ups, it's just that the plots tend to be less fantastical and more depressingly common place.

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Originally posted by Niki2:

PN's paranoia is funny sometimes, isn't he? Bet he gets most of his stuff from http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/ --oops, yup, there it is: http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=114&contentid=66
87

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Lt. Cmdr. Al Martin (US Navy, Ret) has testified before Congress for the Kerry Committee and the Alexander Committee, which investigated the illicit deals of so-called Iran-Contra.

Al Martin's new book, "The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran Contra Insider," is a true crime story and an unprecedented expose of high-level government crimes, coverups and scandals.

The book includes first-hand accounts of US Government-sanctioned narcotics trafficking, illegal weapons deals, and an epidemic of securities fraud, real estate fraud, banking fraud and insurance fraud by high-level government perps.

After he retired as from the Navy, Al Martin's life went into the fast lane as a black ops specialist and an Office of Navy Intelligenc (ONI) officer.

http://www.almartinraw.com/uri1.html

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Posted by PN:

Only a fool makes a decision based on incomplete data...

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

Show me how the government takes over and flies a $5000 plane that isn't equipped with modern avionics, OR show me that THIS particular plane had such avionics and control systems which would allow it to be taken over and flown by remote control, which would then put it far out of reach, financially speaking, of the average Joe.

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NORTHWOODS

T O P S E C R E T S P E C I A L H A N D L I N G N O F O R N

THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
WASHINGTON 25, D.C.
13 March 1962

MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

[signed]
L. L. Lemnitzer
Chairman
Joint Chiefs of Staff

1. Reference is made to memorandum from Chief of Operations, Cuba project, for General Craig, subject: "Operation MONGOOSE", dated 5 March 1962, which requested brief but precise description of pretexts which the Joint Chiefs of Staff consider would provide justifications for US military intervention in Cuba.

PRETEXTS TO JUSTIFY US MILITARY INTERVENTION IN CUBA

2. A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.

a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronilogical order):

(1) Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.

(2) Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on the base.

(3) Capture Cuban (friendly) sabateurs inside the base.

(4) Start riots near the entrance to the base (friendly Cubans).

(5) Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.

(6) Burn aircraft on airbase (sabatage).

(7) Lob morter shells from outside of base into base. Some damage to installations.

(8) Capture assault teams approaching from the sea of vicinity of Guantanamo City.

(9) Capture militia group which storms the base.

(10) Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires -- napthalene.

(11) Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims (may be lieu of (10)).

b. We could blow up a drone (unmannded) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presense of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

4. We could develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington.

The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.

5. A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation (in the vein of the 14th of June invasion of the Dominican Republic). We know that Castro is backing subversive efforts clandestinely against Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, and Nicaragua at present and possible others. These efforts can be magnified and additional ones contrived for exposure. For example, advantage can be taken of the sensitivity of the Dominican Air Force to intrusions within their national air space. "Cuban" B-26 or C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night. Soviet Bloc incidiaries could be found. This could be coupled
with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground in the Dominican Republic and "Cuban" shipments of arms which would be found, or intercepted, on the beach.

6. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be purchased from US resources in about three months.

7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow IACO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.

9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.

a. Approximately 4 of 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.

b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots retuning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/CAH/Northwoods.html

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Actually, Niki, I like this one.. lol

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Nothing in pilot Joe Stack's final exchange with the control tower at Georgetown Municipal Airport would have indicated anything was out of the ordinary on Thursday morning.

According to recordings, Stack's Piper N-28 Dakota was cleared for take-off at 9:45 a.m.

"Have a nice day," were Stack's final calm words.

THE BODIES HAVE YET TO BE IDENTIFIED ON MONDAY.

On Friday, NBC News learned details that would have indicated an even more methodical plan by Stack. A fuel drum was missing at the Georgetown airport, and seats had been taken out of Stack's plane.

That leads to the pressing question; Was there extra cargo on board Stack's Piper Dakota, a fuel drum intended to create the massive fire that occurred in the Echelon II building?

Pilot FAA audio: www.kxan.com/dpp/news/kxan-austin-Questions-about-extra-cargo-on-plane

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Joe Stack's daughter, Samantha Bell calls dad 'Hero'

He may have been somewhat frustrated, but he was a very quiet man," Bell continued. "The father I knew was a loving, caring, devoted man who cherished every moment with me and my three children, his grandchildren.

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/02/22/2010-02-22_joe_stacks_dau
ghter_samantha_bell_calls_deadly_austin_attack_on_irs_wrong_but_la.html#ixzz0gIquaYou

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STRANGE TIMELINE

"Police investigators want to know WHO did this and HOW they did this. What is curious to them is the TIMELINE, because the fire was reported in at 9:18 in the morning. 35 minutes later the plane slammed in to the Eschelon Building. Now it takes you 35 minutes to drive from here to the Georgetown Airport, let alone fly back. So there are questions whether of not a TIMER DEVICE or REMOTE DETONATION was involved in the fire yesterday. But the ATF people are pretty good..."
-KXAN NBC Austin

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On Thursday morning, just minutes before a single-engine plane would plunge into the Echelon I building, the Travis County Hazardous Materials Team gathered in the parking lot of Dave and Buster's at the intersection of U.S. 183 and MoPac Boulevard (Loop 1).

It was the first time the team, made up of firefighters from the Lake Travis, Pflugerville, Westlake, Oak Hill and other fire departments, had decided to hold its monthly training exercise there. Someone had heard that the big, empty lot was available, and it was a central location for team members coming from the four corners of Travis County.

The parking lot just happened to be across the highway from the Echelon I building.

About 10 a.m., firefighters saw the Piper Cherokee scream overhead, flying dangerously low and fast. Moments later, the 15-person team heard the blast as the plane made impact. The crew immediately gathered its protective equipment and its single fire engine and raced around the Loop 360 (Capital of Texas Highway) crossover, arriving on the scene several minutes before the first Austin firefighters would get there.

"For us to just happen to be there was very fortunate," said Oak Hill/Westlake Fire Chief Gary Warren, who took command of the operation. "It was a huge coincidence."

Equally lucky was the fact that Lake Travis firefighters had brought their fire engine. Typically, the team doesn't use fire engines, but Lake Travis Fire and Rescue had just received some new trucks and wanted to show one off to the other departments, said Lake Travis Lt. Ben Sanders. "By the grace of God, we had this apparatus with us," he said.

Three firefighters drove to the crash site and initiated a "blitz attack," blasting the gaping hole left by the plane with their deck gun. Those efforts helped squelch the fire around the crash area.

"They were able to knock that fireball down and give people extra time to evacuate," Warren said.

Warren said the first floor, which received most of the plane's impact, was largely vacant.

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/lucky-coincidence-may-have-saved-l
ives-262042.html

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok, Little-one.

Yes. I laugh, and I joke with them... cus I've seen the end of what their beliefs and policies are.

I yell at the top of my lungs, bu that does nothing.

So I laugh, cus what else can I do? Fly a plane into a building? No.

First off, I can't fly... and secondly... that would do nothing. Im not about making innocents pay for the evils of the truly guilty.

What really cracks me up... is they could they see the end result of their belief system. They really could....

But it would require them going to places they would rather avoid.

They would have to see the reality of what they have created. And its something that isn't pretty.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Why go after the drones carrying out the decision instead of the asshole making it ?

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Joe Stack’s Intriguing Connections With Defense Contractors, Intelligence Agencies

Austin suicide pilot Joe Stack kept some very interesting company as far as the client list for his software programming company is concerned, including a defense contractor with NSA and Homeland Security connections that ironically dealt with air defense systems.

The Georgetown Airport hanger in which Stack’s ill-fated Piper Cherokee was kept was jointly leased by Stack and a man called John Podolak, records show.

The Of Goats and Men blog highlights the fact that Podolak was appointed in 2004 to manage L-3 Avisys’ Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Counter-MANPADS (Man-Portable Air Defense Systems) initiative.

L-3 Avisys is a defense contractor with its main headquarters based in Austin Texas which sells products and works closely with the Department of Defense and unnamed “U.S. Government intelligence agencies”.

Podolak was hired to “oversee a strong team of more than 10 IRCM defense suppliers who will perform research studies and lead the transition of the team’s proposed CAPS (Commercial Airliner Protection System) technology to the airline industry.”

L-3 was also a key client for Stack’s software programming business. Stack helped develop a GPS-based Fight Management System for IEC, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of L-3.

L-3 was also investigated by the SEC for its role in the suspicious number of “put options” on United and American Airlines, speculation that a company’s stock will fall, in the days before 9/11.

Indeed, former NSA official Wayne Madsen wrote in September 2008 that, “A long-time L-3 Communications consultant for the National Security Agency (NSA) was, according to our source, one of the very few recipients of the live video stream that caught the first plane hitting the North Tower.”

“Other clients on the list such as DMC Stratex Networks and Sorrento Electronics also are defense contractors and probably a closer examination of these and other corporations on Stack’s client list will reveal more interesting details,” notes the blog.

The blog also highlights transponder flight tracking records of Stack’s plane which show that its last journey took place on August 6, 2009, and not on February 18 last week when the aircraft was slammed into the Echelon building.

One poster on the Prison Planet forum speculates, “This plane may still be in a hanger at GTU.”
Could Stack’s lightweight Piper Cherokee really have caused such drastic damage to the facade of the Echelon building when compared with other small planes that have crashed into buildings like that of New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle?

The huge fireball reported by eyewitnesses could well have been as a result of extra fuel canisters Stack had loaded onto the plane to inflict maximum damage, but this has yet to be confirmed by authorities.

Intimate ties with defense contractors, not just through his software company, but on a personal level with L-3’s John Podolak will only serve to deepen the intrigue surrounding the motivation behind Stack’s attack on the IRS building, with scant details having emerged since the tragic incident last week.

http://ofgoatsandmen.blogspot.com/2010/02/joe-stack-austin-suicide-pil
ot-co-owned.html

http://www.infowars.com/joe-stacks-intriguing-connections-with-defense
-contractors-intelligence-agencies/

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Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:

The Hungarian-born Jew Bolsevik and former Nazi

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