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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Damn Gino, steal *all* my thunder, why don't ya ?

You've left me with really not much to say, but I do have to take issue with the idea of Texas or Utah being the first to secede...

See, Utah, and moreso Texas, they *TALK* a good game, but historically, when the rubber meets the road they take a dive so fast it's appalling.
(Ok, maybe imma a little hard on TX, but I got my reasons, not the least of which was living there...)
If they'd REALLY wanted to be independent, they woulda pulled out at the end of the Civil War when the Union had almost nothin left to throw at them and all they woulda had to to was bait those fools out into the badlands and cut off their supplies with mounted irregulars, then watch em bake to death out there.

But instead they knuckled under despite having every possible advantage they *could* have, and given previous and subsequent behavior from a historical viewpoint fully convinces me they'll only *actually* secede if a secessionist victory is a foregone conclusion, and they'll hold off a while spouting platitudes and condemning the "traitors" right up to the quick "we were always on your side, really.." change of heart near the very end - and should things go badly, they'll also be the FIRST to jump ship on you, too.

Seriously, look at the history, they might talk a good game, but the texan primary battle tactic is to run for the hills as soon as things get nasty.
That said, you back em into a corner, they'll hand you your ass on a plate.

Still, I wouldn't be sanguine about counting on them for any backup.

Vermont and New Hampshire are your better options, especially as they've actually put the time, effort and money into a secondary level of infrastructure as a check against disaster (like that massive blackout that wiped out power damn near everywhere) but also in the eventuality it should come to such a thing, and while they're very conservative folk who take half of forever to make up their minds - once they do, they're also some of the most stubborn folk in the country.

They go, Maine will prolly go with em, and Rhode Island never really gave a damn what the Union thought in the first place, being so small it goes mostly unnoticed, although Massachusetts is kind of a toss-up, and New York wouldn't budge for quite a while.

So if you're lookin for how that'd go, look north, not south - and I note for the record that Michigan happens to be probably THE most defensible state up here from - barring the UP, we only really got one border to defend, and decayed that it is, the industrial capacity to field the heavy stuff, along with a population and mindset that doesn't have a lotta problems about usin it on somebody (or anybody, we *are* admittedly a little trigger happy), plus we get on with the Canadians quite well, thankee muchly.

Not that I think it'd ever come to that, cause state authority would likely fall before federal, and the resulting social collapse would make such a scenario unviable, as the scattered communities thrown back on their own resources would prolly see federal intervention as a blessing once the ugly realties of such an event come clear to them in an unignorable way, and those who don't will be in community-sized chunks, easy prey for the imperial war machine.

Most of the folk talking about secession really have no idea just how fast things can and will go to hell in a handbasket if you start taking an axe to the mutual support systems which enable us to go on about our daily lives, because they take these things for granted to the point where they're invisible save when the bill gets paid at the end of the month.

Trust me, you do NOT wanna see what happens to a medium-largish city when you cut off food, water and power to it - remember we've done casualty estimates for this, and that's why I don't support it.

-Frem

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Originally posted by Kwicko:






Terrorist.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:






Terrorist.

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Nice, simple but accurate




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:






Terrorist.

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Nice, simple but accurate




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Why, thank you, Gino! I found that pic somewhere, then lost it, then searched and searched and searched until I found it again, then found the "thoseposters" site and made that, and then saved it so I wouldn't lose it again!

I *wish* I could find the morphed image that someone (I *think* it was Citizen, but it might have been you) put up of Sarah Palin morphed with a Pit Bull. I've searched for that and just can't find it again...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Texas: Not likely to happen. Rick Perry is a god-damned idiot who should probably consider himself lucky to not be in prison this evening, on a host of charges and for myriad reasons. His saying that Texas could secede is an ignorant reading of how we came into the union after the Civil War. What it SAYS is that we can be split into five different states, NOT that we can secede and go our own way. And the charter doesn't even say WHO has the authority to decide whether, or when, or how it's supposed to happen.

I take issue with Frem's analysis of the "typical Texas fighting strategy". Having grown up in West Texas, I can tell you for a fact that the "typical" fight starts with some shrimp going up to the biggest buy in the room and starting shit with him, just so everybody else knows he's a badass and leaves him alone. Problem with that is, I'm 6'8".

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Gino, not taking offense, but beginning to wonder "why me?"

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both of you are

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. How about "both of them"? You agreed with the photo Mike put up; so do I. I posted three definitions of terrorism; one of them mentioned "The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged, and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”."; I hold to that.

I don't understand what you mean by

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I think our differences in the definition is you are stuck with the idea that other people use terror as an end and the US uses terror as a means.

I think I established the ends the people we are talking about are looking for, and the means they are using are what they are

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I'm not "stuck" with any definition; it's my opinion. I posted elsewhere a bit about British "terrorism", do you think BRITAIN (or probably more practically "England") is a terrorist state? Why single the US out, and why with such vehemence?

As to the cite, I don't always read cites; I try to post only the relevant argument to make my points, then the link if others want to explore further. I felt you posted te relevant points, and found no need to refer to the cite for more. I'm not sure what response you expected?

I've agreed with you on several points, even that the US is in some ways a terrorist state. I've also said that we might agree to disagree, as neither will change the other's mind, so we're at an impasse. Why are you continuing to harp on this? I find it confusing. It's beginning to "feel" as if you need there to be a "winner" or something...?

Oh, Mike; don't feel too bad. After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?

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Frustration

I see the shit your country does I want it to pay


maybe I am what Frem called a Dark Spark on another thread


Blair should be hung too, same with many world leaders... Chechnya comes to mind. But the US keeps putting itself up as a model to the world, a country of laws, and democracy... lies and bullshit

remember you asked for my opinion, now you have it

and just think, your terrorism is ongoing, own it

and the way I see it... if you give guns and money to someone and they send out death squads... maybe you have a defense... unless you continue to send them guns and money... then you own their crimes too

Israel, Saddam gassing the Kurds, etc, etc, etc

When you said well maybe someday someone will get charged...

you can see how someone living with your crap will feel

do you better understand why terrorism exists now ?

why it is more about you allowing your government to go crazy, than religion or differences in wealth, or the other Faux news explanations ?


I want you to see beyond the definitions, beyond pointing at someone elses bullshit... Maybe feel a little outrage



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, this is getting ridiculous. You've heard my outrage many times. I didn't "point" at anyone else's attrocities except to respond that other contries are guilty of many of the same things the US is.

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why it is more about you allowing your government to go crazy, than religion or differences in wealth, or the other Faux news explanations ?

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I don't understand that one, and if you think we "allow" our government to do anything, then you have no grasp of how the PEOPLE in a country have often little or no impact on what their GOVERNMENT does. We dow what we can; we protested Vietnam until we went hoarse...it didn't do any good. We TRY to vote in better politicians...that hasn't done much good either. We do what we can to fight the military-industrial complex, what else do you suggest? We're not all Frem, and I don't think even HE can have much influence on our military's actions.

My problem is your hard-on for the US, and your blaming those of us here with "you" so much. We have problems, but we're not THE worst nation in the world, believe it or not. I've agreed with most of your points, in two separate threads; at this point it's pretty obvious you're not hearing me and just want to attack. "I" am not my government, nor is anyone else here, but if you want to characterize us that way, there's nothing I can do about it, except cease engaging you.

So I'm off to walk the dogs; hopefully more constructive conversations will ensue.

Yeah, Mike, I forgot Nixon, dammit! I'm not sure LBJ is a fair comparison to EITHER Reagan or Nixon, so I'll have to give California -2 and Texas -1-1/2, I'm afraid!

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Sure you have expression outrage... but you also have said

" I see no good whatsoever in what they’re doing. They’re universally labeled “bad guys”, which means their view is rejected, first of all. Second, nothing like what Al Qaeda is doing will change foreign policy, our government has to do that, and hasn’t in almost a hundred years. All they’re doing is killing a bunch of innocent people in order to make a statement, which statement is lost on the wind...not our wind, the world’s. Our wind thinks America can do wrong, foreign policy-wise. Two wrongs never do make a right. "


My intent was to convey why people join Al Qaeda, why they feel the way they do about your country

and if the US ceased their policys, do you not think Britain would back off, or that it would give Israel pause ? Perhaps Russia could be reigned in ?

protests and marchs... didn't accomplish much, an attempt I give you that

I didn't come up with the argument that Americans are individually responsible for the actions of their government, the first ( I know of anyway ) was a guy named Abdullah Azzam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Azzam

Do you understand terrorism and what drives it better ? that is the whole point I am trying to make here.

Do you still think Al Qaeda is so bad ?

You both share a common cause in wanting to stop your governments foreign policy ? So what I am saying the end is the same where you differ is the means.

And we seem to agree the " nice " means do not work...

so what are we left with








Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
But what's our outside force? And what's our tipping point?

Is Al Qaeda the outside force, and Iraq the tipping point?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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They say it isn't significant... but does China do things that are insignificant ?

Crashing both the US and Japan at the same time ?

They really learned their economic warfare well...

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LMAO

No you keep your trash

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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LMAO

No you keep your trash

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Makes you almost feel sorry for the idiots who were stupid enough to buy those crap cars. Almost.

I feel bad for the workers losing their jobs, though.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Originally posted by Niki2:

Oh, Mike; don't feel too bad. After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?

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Originally posted by rue:
"40 an hour or better, full on free ride benefits."

Actually ... no. That's a myth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/11/ap/congress/main4664833.shtm
l

"(AP) Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers."


Here in California, a Kaiser (HMO) family plan costs nearly $1,000 / month (or with simple arithemtic, $12,000 / yr). If the US had a decent health care systm, that would be a big chunk of change for labor cost alone.

On top of that retirees who gave up wages in order to have a pension and health care benefits are getting paid as well. And I'm guessing that their insurance premiums are pretty high.

I'd say that a large part of the labor cost difference is in insurance premiums.

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Did someone hear something? I thought I might have, but it was too ridiculous to be real... oh, well...

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I think it was a joke, but it was so full of static...


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Did someone hear something? I thought I might have, but it was too ridiculous to be real... oh, well...

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
FFF.net

when Reagan died


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=5601#74770

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AURAPTOR
Three-point, four-hour, should do it.

Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:44



Virtually none of those things listed have anyhting to do w/ Reagan or his Administration.

Reagan was perhaps the best President in the last 50 yrs, I say the last century.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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AURAPTOR
Three-point, four-hour, should do it.

Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:44



Virtually none of those things listed have anyhting to do w/ Reagan or his Administration.

Reagan was perhaps the best President in the last 50 yrs, I say the last century.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wow, before I came here AU was JUST as deluded & JUST as bad at spelling! HA!

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