Another one close to my heart, and given our recent discussion of connections between people and animals, one I found interesting. I posted footage befor..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Are Dolphins also persons?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, February 27, 2010 07:08
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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Another one close to my heart, and given our recent discussion of connections between people and animals, one I found interesting. I posted footage before of them making those rings to play with, and there's another of them flipping jellyfish as a sort of "ball". So the question becomes:
Quote:

If Dolphins Are So Intelligent, Some Scientists Ask Why They're Kept in Aquariums

Scientists who have studied the remarkable lives of dolphins have found themselves in a bit of an ethical quagmire.

There seems to be little doubt now that dolphins are surprisingly intelligent, know who they are as individuals, and engage in cultural traditions that can be passed on to succeeding generations. In short, they are a lot like humans.

So, should they be treated as "persons"? Should they be recognized as fellow travelers on this planet, rather than captive exhibitionists or laboratory specimens?

Leaders in the field held a standing-room-only symposium last Sunday in San Diego during the annual convention of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and they got an earful.

"The response was very much divided," Lori Marino, a neuroscientist and animal behaviorist at Emory University said in a telephone interview. Marino was a co-investigator in a convincing experiment that showed in 2001 how dolphins are incredibly self-aware, returning to a mirror over and over again to check out their bodies.

Determining animal intelligence is a thorny problem, even if the animals are somewhat like ourselves. But it's especially difficult if the animals are very different from us, and live in a world that is unlike ours, but clearly have active minds.

Some Say Dolphins Should Be Considered 'Non-Human Persons'

Do other animals ponder the stars and wonder about the universe? Probably not. But research shows that dolphins can at least think about the future.

Findings like that have led some distinguished scientists and ethicists to suggest we need to rethink our role as humans. It turns out we are not alone, and we didn't need to journey into space to find out.

Thomas I. White of the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics and Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles told the AAAS session that dolphins should be regarded as "non-human persons," a phrase that has caught on among some scientists.

"Like humans, dolphins appear to be self-conscious, unique individuals with distinctive personalities, memories and a sense of self, who are vulnerable to a wide range of physical and emotional pain and harm, and who have the power to reflect upon and choose their actions," White told an audience that lingered long after the session had ended because participants wanted to discuss the issue further.

More at http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AmazingAnimals/dolphins-animal-closes
t-intelligence-humans/story?id=9921886&page=2


Dolphins making "balls" out of jelly fish: http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8860325

The "rings" they make to play with; I'm impressed at how they grab the bubble and flip it or make it smaller, rather than pop it!







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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Non-human persons, definitely.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:01 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


Let integrate them into society already!

Flipper 2012!!!


--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:08 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I posted footage before of them making those rings to play with, and there's another of them flipping jellyfish as a sort of "ball". So the question becomes:
Quote:

If Dolphins Are So Intelligent, Some Scientists Ask Why They're Kept in Aquariums


'Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.'

'The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards-somersault through a hoop whilst whistling the 'Star Spangled Banner', but in fact the message was this: So long and thanks for all the fish.'

H


"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA



What a silly question!

Of course they are.

-F

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:14 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Do other animals ponder the stars and wonder about the universe? Probably not.


Prove or disprove that *I* ponder the stars and wonder about the universe.

Humans.

(Not directed at you, Niki, directed at the author of that article)

Anyway. I don't think we can even limit "non-human persons" to dolphins and primates. I scribble a line somewhere around where you find animals with "personality" and even then that gets hard to tell with more primitive species. I think it's MAYBE somewhere between fish and tunicates. I don't see much personality in fish, but other people say different. Then there are also a few invertebrates that seem to edge in to non-human person status as well, like Octopus, and some species of insects. Bees seem to be pretty smart, able to recognize, analyze, and interpret all those honey dances, and able to remember locations.

It might be smarter to get rid of the idea of personhood in general, and just create laws with an eye for respect towards all life.


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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:57 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"Person' seems weird to me.

I'd vote for "sentient species"--after all, we BARELY are!



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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Apparently, orcas feel the same about being in an aquarium.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:20 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
"Person' seems weird to me.


Who's more of a "person," Flipper or Cheney?

Case closed.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:58 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


...yeah, Chris, you're right...



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Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:20 AM

MINCINGBEAST


we've had a hard time devising a culturally blind measure of intelligence, let alone one that properly differentiates between species. hence, it is easier just to assume that dolphins are just sort of clever fish (even if they are sentinent mammals).

also, it is widely known that dolphins are capable of great evil, and engage in all sorts of vicious and anti-social behavior. proof of their intelligence, perhaps?


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Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, they're capable of evil, but the instances of "all sorts of vicious and anti-social behavior" are few and far between, from what I read. On the other hand, there are myriad stories of them going out of their way to protect or save humans, so there's good and bad in any species.

I don't think we CAN come up with an appropriate test for intelligence. I don't think we're able to imagine a relevant one for another species, so we can't accurately measure what we would consider "intelligence" in other than our own species.



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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I don't think we CAN come up with an appropriate test for intelligence. I don't think we're able to imagine a relevant one for another species, so we can't accurately measure what we would consider "intelligence" in other than our own species.


Yep.

We have a heard enough time determining and measuring intelligence in our own species. There is often very deliberate bias towards individuals from the very same specific demographic making the test. I expect human bias towards animals is the same story taken to ten.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:29 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Some animals seem to have a concept of self. But beyond saying that the people who determined this did it with mirrors (what, no smoke ?) I don't remember exactly how the experiments were done.

Chimps (both kinds), dolphins and uhm, I forget which others, were found to have as sense of self.

Much has been made of the fact that people have hands with opposable thumbs, and that this tool-making ability led to human intelligence. But other animals use other things to manipulate their environment. Chimps hands and feet both have opposable 'thumbs', elephants have their trunk, parrots have tongues and claws etc. But then, lemurs also have them opposable thumbs, and no one is going to call a lemur intelligent. So, if anatomy isn't the be-all and end-all, it's conceivable that dolphins, living in social groups, manipulate each other through language.

BTW, killer 'whales' are actually a large species of dolphin.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:59 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Dolphins are more intelligent than sheeple, since they don't pay a kosher income tax.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Fa....love.....Pa



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

I don't think we CAN come up with an appropriate test for intelligence. I don't think we're able to imagine a relevant one for another species, so we can't accurately measure what we would consider "intelligence" in other than our own species.


Yep.

We have a heard enough time determining and measuring intelligence in our own species. There is often very deliberate bias towards individuals from the very same specific demographic making the test. I expect human bias towards animals is the same story taken to ten.




And that last sentence is, in itself, internally biased. :) You assume "ten" because we tend towards base-10 math, since we have 10 fingers. What would a porpoise use for math? Two? Moon? Eel? We have no idea.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:13 PM

BYTEMITE


Actually, I only said ten because I didn't think it was taken up to eleven.

But that does imply a presumption of ten being a standard range.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 2:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Actually, I only said ten because I didn't think it was taken up to eleven.

But that does imply a presumption of ten being a standard range.



I know - I'm just yankin' yer chain. :) I thought about asking if it went to eleven, and that's when it hit me that we were being very "numberist" about it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


In octopus count (another animal that might be intelligent), that would be 12.

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 7:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

We have a heard enough time determining and measuring intelligence in our own species. There is often very deliberate bias towards individuals from the very same specific demographic making the test. I expect human bias towards animals is the same story taken to ten.

Quote:

Much has been made of the fact that people have hands with opposable thumbs, and that this tool-making ability led to human intelligence
Dolphins, and other spevies have also adapted perfectlt ro rheir environment, whereas we have "tried" to adapt the envitonment to US.





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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:06 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Dolphins are not people, but they are very deserving of our affection and respect.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


--easier than typing. wouldn't want them to be. better as they are.

ps - yes, killer whales are dolphins--so are pilot whales and indo-pacific humpback (not pacific humpback)



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Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:08 AM

HKCAVALIER


In the tradition I follow, persons are any being deserving of respect, any being from which we have something to learn. In my tradition, even rocks are persons with their own wisdom to offer. (You know, like "LOOK OUT! I'M COMING AT YOUR HEAD!)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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