REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Coffee Party

POSTED BY: LITTLEBIRD
UPDATED: Thursday, March 4, 2010 13:36
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Monday, March 1, 2010 1:24 PM

LITTLEBIRD




Coffee Party activists say their civic brew's a tastier choice than Tea Party's
By Dan Zak
Washington Post, February 26, 2010
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/25/AR2010
022505517.html
[Numerous links at site; also see < http://coffeepartyusa.com/>.]


Furious at the tempest over the Tea Party -- the scattershot citizen uprising against big government and wild spending -- Annabel Park did what any American does when she feels her voice has been drowned out: She squeezed her anger into a Facebook status update.

let's start a coffee party . . . smoothie party. red bull party. anything but tea. geez. ooh how about cappuccino party? that would really piss 'em off bec it sounds elitist . . . let's get together and drink cappuccino and have real political dialogue with substance and compassion.

Friends replied, and more friends replied. So last month, in her Silver Spring apartment, Park started a fan page called "Join the Coffee Party Movement." Within weeks, her inbox and page wall were swamped by thousands of comments from strangers in diverse locales, such as the oil fields of west Texas and the suburbs of Chicago.

I have been searching for a place of refuge like this for a long while. . . . It is not Us against the Govt. It is democracy vs corporatocracy . . . I just can't believe that the Tea Party speaks for all patriotic Americans. . . . Just sent suggestions to 50 friends . . . I think it's time we start a chapter right here in Tucson . . .

The snowballing response made her the de facto coordinator of Coffee Party USA, with goals far loftier than its oopsy-daisy origin: promote civility and inclusiveness in political discourse, engage the government not as an enemy but as the collective will of the people, push leaders to enact the progressive change for which 52.9 percent of the country voted in 2008.

The ideas aren't exactly fresh -- Tea Party chapters view themselves as civil, inclusive and fueled by collective will -- but the Coffee Party is percolating in at least 30 states. Small chapters are meeting up, venting frustrations, organizing themselves, hoping to transcend one-click activism. Kind of like the Tea Party did this last year, spawning 1,200 chapters, a national conference and a march on Washington.

"It's like trying to perform surgery in the dark," says Park, 41, a documentary filmmaker. She's exhausted, overcommitted, passing whole days on Facebook, not collecting a paycheck, hopping between conference calls, sending e-mails at 4 a.m., smoothing out conflicts over strategy. She has been swept up in this project, and so have others. Within two weeks of forming, the Los Angeles chapter produced a five-minute video in which citizens yearn for sensible progress and lament obstructionist truth-twisting.

Progress is patriotic, they tell the camera. Wake up. Espresso yourself. Something is brewing, America.

* * *

Need something to wash down that heaping helping of American angst? Tea or coffee? (Must we choose?)

Deep down, underneath the Tea Party's Revolutionary War garb and the Coffee Party's faded HOPE stickers, they seem to want the same thing. To save America. Which raises the question: "From what?"

The easy answer is "each other," when really their complaints are similar and eternal: The political system is broken, elected officials ignore the people, and the media warp truths and pit sides. A recent Washington Post-ABC News poll shows that two-thirds of Americans are "dissatisfied" or "angry" with the federal government," the highest level in 14 years, and many have sought solace in social networking. The Coffee Party, whether it grows or fizzles, is the latest effort to turn virtual disenchantment into real-world results. Its members are incited by Tea Party tactics, which they believe obstruct reform and discourage thoughtful deliberation, and the Tea Party -- well, the Tea Party has not heard of the Coffee Party.

Says Robert Gaudet, 40, a software designer in Shreveport, La., who administers TeaPartyPatriots.org: "We don't see cooperation with the government. We see ourselves monitoring the government. . . . As for shouting and obstructionism, absolutely not. The media is trying to define a movement and not being able to put their finger on it. There's common-sense solutions we're asking for: fiscal responsibility, free markets, limited government and lower taxes."

Says Dave Henderson, 48, an automotive service adviser in Denison, Tex., who found the Coffee Party on Facebook: "The political mood right now is 'blame Obama for everything.' The Tea Party is overexposed but organized, and they have a poster child in Sarah Palin and Fox News. I'm extremely anti-establishment, and the thing that appealed to me about the Coffee Party is it is very grass-roots, there's no official organization, and individuals can participate as individuals without having to see eye-to-eye on everything."

The Coffee Party is not so much a party or movement as a slow-drip ripple through online nano-politics. Within the past 10 days, its Facebook fans rose from 3,500 to more than 9,200, which is far more than the 5,900 fans of the central page of Organizing for America, the DNC-funded group supporting President Obama's agenda. What does that mean, though, when nearly 100,000 Facebook users have joined the Tea Party Patriots Facebook page and 1.5 million have joined a joke page titled "Can this pickle get more fans than Nickleback?"

"I don't really understand what they're about other than 'we don't like the Tea Party' and 'we're for a better process,' " says Michael Cornfield, a political scientist at 720 Strategies, a D.C. grass-roots advocacy firm. "The Tea Party has something more going for it in its name. It has a historical echo, and means these guys are self-conscious rebels objecting to a government who taxes them without representation."

* * *

"So what are we doing here? What's the objective?"

Alan Alborn, a retired executive and former Army officer who voted for both George W. Bush and Obama, crosses his arms over his maroon sweater and leans back in a Manassas cafe last Friday. With him are Park, her boyfriend and fellow filmmaker Eric Byler, and Elena Schlossberg, who co-writes a blog focused on Prince William County politics. The quartet, first united by their involvement in the county's fiery immigration debates in 2007, discusses Coffee Party talking points, staying positive and coming up with a marketable phrase. Maybe "What does America really think?"

"And we need a big idea that's separate and stands alone," says Alborn, 61, who appreciates the basic tenets of the Tea Party but can't subscribe to what he views as its stonewall strategy and jumble of church and state. "We need to find people who will pledge to be one-term candidates, so that we get citizen politicians."

Later that night in Woodley Park, Tea Party member William Temple -- pastor, artist and historical reenactor from Brunswick, Ga. -- receives praise in the Marriott lobby for his starring role in "Tea Party: The Documentary Film," after it screened at the Conservative Political Action Conference. Temple sounds like he and Alborn have drunk the same beverage.

"There is a synergism between people who realize we've got massive corruption," says Temple, 59. "We want citizen legislators, people who know about sacrifice. Get the career politicians out of here."

The next evening, Fox News pundit Glenn Beck paces during his keynote speech at the conference. "It is still morning in America," Beck tells the crowd. "It just happens to be kind of a head-pounding, hungover, vomiting-for-four-hours kind of morning in America. . . . What is it that has caused the problem? And if you say 'Obama,' it's too simple of an answer because it's not Barack Obama." He writes "progressivism" on a chalkboard. "This is the disease."

On Sunday afternoon, Stacey Hopkins, a 46-year-old mother of five who lives in Hapeville, Ga., speaks on a conference call with a half-dozen organizers of the Atlanta Coffee Party.

"You're dealing with a nation that's jaded, paranoid, distrustful, broke, angry -- it's like they just woke up from an eight-year meth binge," Hopkins says. "We've become so polarized. Once we say our political affiliations, everyone goes to their corner and then comes out swinging. . . . A lot of people have the same goals and desires."

* * *

When Park was 9, her family emigrated from Seoul to Houston. She studied philosophy at Boston University and political theory at Oxford, was a nanny in New York until she got a job in strategic planning at the New York Times, moved to L.A. to pursue filmmaking and, in 2006, came to D.C. to work on Jim Webb's Senate campaign, which led to a documentary project on the immigration debates in Prince William. She views the Coffee Party as an extension of that desire for conversation instead of closed-mindedness, as an evolution in wiki-government, where technology enables fuller citizen participation.

"We have to relearn how to talk to each other, to deliberate," says Park, driving west on I-66 to the Coffee Party meeting in Manassas. "It's also about regaining confidence that we can come together, that we can come to the middle and agree on things."

The Coffee Party believes the middle is consensus. The Tea Party believes the middle is the Constitution.

"People are scared on both sides about the financial stability of the country," adds Temple, the Tea Party activist, on the phone from Brunswick. "There are people who get angry. I remind people, 'Hey, settle down. The sky's not gonna fall.' . . . We need to reassure them that there's hope. We're not about to launch a French Revolution here. We can vote and we can talk and we can do it civilly."

The parties continue to post videos and recruit fans of all ideological stripes. On Sunday, a handful of San Antonio Coffee Partiers joined a small MoveOn.org rally to counter a Tea Party event. Coffee meet-ups are planned for this weekend in the District and Herndon, and there's talk of a conference or march in the summer. On Saturday, there will be 50 Tea Party rallies around the country to mark the first anniversary of the movement, and hundreds more are planned for tax day on April 15.

So: Tea or coffee? While the movements are at different points in their life cycles, both view themselves as silent majorities who have found their voice, as sleeping giants who are now awake, caffeinated on activism, ready to persuade or react to the other side, if there are sides at all.


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Monday, March 1, 2010 1:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Why can't it ever be "it's us versus the corporations AND the government"? You can't take down one without the other. And... How are they anti-corporation when the basis of their meeting is to go drink coffee together? Please, oh lords of irony, for once do not mock us and please let these people have the sense to not have their anti-corporate political action rallies in Starbucks cafes. ._.

Although actually, I'm fine doing away with the "us vs. them" mentality in the first place. It's kind of flawed.

Oh, and BTW, the fact that this was supposedly organized from someone versed in political theory from Boston and Oxford suggests pretty heavily that this may not be grassroots at all. Watch yourselves...

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Monday, March 1, 2010 1:43 PM

LITTLEBIRD



Hmmm ... interesting observations Byte.

Maybe a 'Mudder's Milk' Party instead? :)

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Monday, March 1, 2010 2:35 PM

TRAVELER


Something I found on YouTube.




http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Monday, March 1, 2010 3:00 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Oh, and BTW, the fact that this was supposedly organized from someone versed in political theory from Boston and Oxford suggests pretty heavily that this may not be grassroots at all. Watch yourselves...


All things considered, despite her political education, this seems about as grass rooty as you can get compared to the "grass roots" movement pushed agressively by Fox News.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, March 1, 2010 3:02 PM

BYTEMITE


True enough. Still, I bet if you look deep enough, there's going to be funding here from PACs and maybe a couple corporate entities.

I'll look into this tonight, see if I can find anything.

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Monday, March 1, 2010 3:02 PM

LITTLEBIRD


Here's another.


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Monday, March 1, 2010 4:41 PM

BYTEMITE


Outwardly, I don't see too much to be overly suspicious. Names don't really strike any warning bells, I haven't seen any lazy possibly give away contact links (they link a lot to media matters, more than any other, but they have a smattering of other source links too, and media matters hasn't said anything about them). The dates are reasonable too. You'd be surprised how many people let themselves be inconsistent with dates and give everything away.

The only thing that might be some concern is that the party clearly shifted from a more inclusive origin to a directly opposition and antagonistic position towards the tea party or even members with some anti-government tea party ideas, which could indicate outside meddling. Then again, hatred is strong enough that reasonably one could expect that as the party got more followers, the political orientation would slide in the direction best catered to.

So... This COULD be a genuine article.

Now that the media has noticed it, expect it to be scooped up and subverted by money influence. So I still wouldn't trust it. But then, my trust has been damaged today and I'm bitter and angry.

EDIT: the founder lists a few people here, but there may or may not be influence suggested. If I see any of them talking about the Party well before they should have taken any notice, say early February or January, that could be a hint.

EDIT 1: Hmm, nope. So it's real, or things are very well hidden, but considering that the Tea Party was pretty transparent, I would expect this to be more obvious if anything is here.
http://www.facebook.com/annabelpark

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Monday, March 1, 2010 6:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Problem is...

You're still playing the card sharpers game, by his rules, at his table, with his marked deck.

See BEYOND the pre-set engagement they've set you up to lose, play by YOUR rules, not theirs, and then perhaps progress will occur.

-F

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Monday, March 1, 2010 6:23 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, I was mostly looking into legitimacy here. I fully expect complete ineptitude, and heck the original post in this thread even highlights that. By the opposition, yes, but generally, the lack of originality and the ambiguousness of the mission statement don't give me high hopes for the brains behind this outfit.

And what little I saw members saying in the forums, they're rabid Obama supporters.

Mindless divisive party line stuff isn't going to change anything, and neither is "bipartisanship" or supermajorities or any of that bulldunk.

I remember someone posted an article from the Onion recently, where everyone suddenly realized money doesn't MEAN anything, and the government crumbled, and so did the economy. I wonder, if people developed fully self-sustaining and self-sufficient communities and just... Started ignoring both the corporations and government, boycotting them economically, I wonder if that's what would happen. Dream the dream.

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Monday, March 1, 2010 6:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually, imma expound a bit, as it also touches on things Byte mentioned in another thread related to money/participation.

Look, it's like a race against a vastly superior car, ok ?

You could sink tons and tons of money into your old heap hoping to even barely compete and maybe get lucky...

Or you can slash the other guys tires!

"But that's cheating!"

Oh, and a SETUP like that isn't ?
When you're playing a rigged game, the only logical thing to DO is cheat, otherwise by letting your opponent make the rules, you ensure your own defeat no matter HOW many resources you piss down a hole aiming for double O on a fixed roulette wheel - on top of which you fail to recognize that the ball is magnetized and could not fall there even if you DID get lucky.
(I *did* point out here that Congress can and will refuse to seat even firmly elected reps, did I not ?)

And lemme make the ethics of this clear to you.

Politics is by it's very NATURE, cheating - you, personally, are trying to make YOUR say more powerful, more effective, than the other guys, than the other guy and all his supporters, thus trumping it whether or not anyone in particular agrees with you, a subversion of the one person-one voice rule to begin with, but a dirty game you wind up forced to play in such a fashion because EVERYBODY cheats, and attempting to play any other way is wasting your time, so lets cut the bullshit and rationalizations - not just publicly, I want you to actually think it through in your own mind and realize that all those justifications are no more true for you, or me, than they are for anyone else - it's ALL bullshit, and buying into any part of it is a fools gambit to begin with, so why buy a few pieces and set yourself at a disadvantage when up against folks who are TRYING to get you to do exactly that ?

The whole game is by it's very nature corrupt, and so "cheating" is inevitable in any set of conditions where "victory" requires anything less than unanimous consent!

And no amount of additional force or "rules" is going to change that so long as the folks involved in making said "rules" or their enforcement are also sitting at the table playing the game.

And so, part of my 'agenda' as it were, involves playing the game in such a way as to MOCK the rules, expose the sham for what it is, to break the confidence of fools in the game and those who play it, to shatter the faith in the myth that the carrot held out in front of you is ever gonna be yours if you keep pulling the cart, cause like War, Politics is a loss, the only sane way to "win" is not to play the game.

But when you're forced to sit at the table by others, when your very life and livelyhood depends on the results, you have to play the hand that you've been dealt, but why the hell should you play it by the "rules" of the sumbitches who shoved it in your lap and forced you with threat of violence (which is, in essence, all that "government" truly is) to play this stupid game in the first place ?

So what do you do ?

You CHEAT, you MOCK, you render the entire game pointless by not taking it seriously, refusing to bow in fear, doing card tricks and laughing, and all the while dealing yourself a couple juicy tricks from the bottom of the deck, daring them to call you up short for it without looking like hypocrites and exposing the sham for what it truly is!

So you go on, trying to beat that Bugatti Veyron with a Honda Civic...

Me, I'll be over on the other side of the goddamn thing.
With an ice pick.

-Frem
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
-Joshua.

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As I said in the thread about MoveOn and Blanche Lincoln getting competition; either side being taken over by ideologs is a bad thing. The Right having gone so far "right" appears to be now bringing the ultra-leftists into doing their own thing, and that's a shame.

I don't care who's behind it, in this sort of instance, I don't like galvanizing people to go harder right OR left. The tea party is a joke, to me, and I'm pretty sure this will be too--the only problem is, they get media and others join. Bah!

Difficult as it is at times, I like that the Dems have more of a "big tent" than the Repubs--given the "cleansing" of the GOP at present, I hate seeing the same thing start up on the left, dammit! It's frustrating, but I WANT them to continue to be as hard as "herding cats!"


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



This not only shows that there's a group of folks who simply don't get it, but who don't WANT to get it.





Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 9:26 AM

STORYMARK


Yup, there is certainly a bunch of people who don't want to be part of a group led around by the nose by Fox News and the GOP - while believing quite incorrectly that they are fixing....well... anything.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 12:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yup, there is certainly a bunch of people who don't want to be part of a group led around by the nose by Fox News and the GOP - while believing quite incorrectly that they are fixing....well... anything.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


Story, that group that doesn't get it and doesn't want to is called "Tea Baggers". Two years ago they proudly called themselves "Republicans".




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 1:42 PM

STORYMARK


Funny how they think changing a title will fool anyone.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 5:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Funny how they think changing a title will fool anyone.


Again, you show your colossal ignorance on this , and other issues.



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 6:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Funny how they think changing a title will fool anyone.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."




Well, they certainly fooled Rappy. 'Course, that ain't sayin' much.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 8:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I hear that gurgling of a troll under the bridge again, don't others? There's no debate in saying "you don't get it", it's not a valid point without some kind of explicit backup, and it's not pertinent to the question at hand.

Oh, wait, it's raining, maybe that's what I heard. Or did anyone else hear it?

Trolls make useless remarks and snipes to change the subject, so I guess it was the one under the bridge...or that rat I saw shaking the water off himself from the rain.

Any way you look at it, it's just noise. Who is this "Rappy", by the way? Is he the troll, the rat, or the gurgling?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:16 AM

MINCINGBEAST


hey now, trolling is a fine and lovely art, and you slander trolls everywhere when accusing Rappy of trollery.

also, no point in struggling agaisnt your corporate masters, or the politicians, assuming you can tell them apart. you might as well spit in the wind. or better yet, curse the fundamental laws of physics. the little guy always loses, and individuals can not make a difference. to suggest otherwise is to cling to a comforting illusion. but the tea party may make a difference, because 1) they are not the little guy and 2) they are not individuals, but rather proxies for the forces of darkness.

hows that for trolling?

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


True; my apologies to trolls. They're probably more intelligent in their come-backs as well, give it's an art. Perhaps a poor attempt at trolling by one unartful in its practice?

I just don't know what else to attribute all the gurgling I hear; any suggestions? Sometimes it sounds like wind, sometimes it sounds like incoherent gurgling--usually I can't tell from where it eminates, so I guess. Anything else live in the water it might be that you can suggest? My knowledge of beasts who live under bridges or otherwise invisible yet make noise is limited, I'm afraid...

What's a "Rappy"? Or do I need to know?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
True; my apologies to trolls. They're probably more intelligent in their come-backs as well, give it's an art. Perhaps a poor attempt at trolling by one unartful in its practice?

I just don't know what else to attribute all the gurgling I hear; any suggestions? Sometimes it sounds like wind, sometimes it sounds like incoherent gurgling--usually I can't tell from where it eminates, so I guess. Anything else live in the water it might be that you can suggest? My knowledge of beasts who live under bridges or otherwise invisible yet make noise is limited, I'm afraid...

What's a "Rappy"? Or do I need to know?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10



A "Rappy" is a kind of fart, named for the noise it makes. Loud, noisy, smelly, but mostly just a bunch of hot air. Not really dangerous; you just wouldn't want one anywhere near you in public.

Dong ma?




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:42 AM

CHRISISALL





The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:58 AM

MINCINGBEAST


now ya'll are giving farts, which are healthy and natural, a bad name. a fart does not choose to stink.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mea culpa again. A fart is actually a sign of good health in some societies, so that won't do. Any alternative suggestions? Wind is good too, in truth, so what fits?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:14 AM

MINCINGBEAST


i would suggest smoke from a trash fire. noxious, but without substance, and an indication that something rotten is happening.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:29 AM

BYTEMITE


On the other hand, trash fires keep the methane from decaying organic material from poisoning us all.

Why don't we just call AURaptor who he is? His name, or Rappy, or whatever nickname you want to use. Talks of farts and wind and disrespect generally hold up discourse. I don't come to the RWED to read post after post of people saying, oh, what was that noise? Understand that the way you feel about scrolling past PN, I feel about that particular tactic.

If you find him annoying, or you think he spreads disinformation, then engage him. Since most of you think he's easily disproven, why shy from it? Any other tactics merely undermine what salient points you have to make.

No one here, as near as I can tell, is a troll, because all of us attempt to contribute something to the conversation, and all of us believe what we have to say. I've seen trolls at work, I've BEEN a troll at work, and I can assure you it's very different.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Respecting your opinion and what you have to say, I'll just refer to the nearby post when I explained why I post the way I do and that it's a method which I've found works well to keep me from engaging in snarking or being pulled into a fight. I see it less as snarking than a LOT of the truly personal attacks and aimed directly at the person being responded to.

It may not be what you agree with, but it's my method and works for me. It avoids confrontation, and yes, I do try to ignore most of the time, but when something is entirely too stupid or nasty, I'm as vulnerable as anyone else to the desire to respond. This is how I do it.

I guess you missed that I HAVE engaged, numerous times, to debate specific points or express my opinion. I don't think my way undermines salient points; I would refer to the IBD facts presented and how I engaged them directly. I believe everyone here knows what I'm doing when I call someone wind or gurgling; others do as well. Whatever their reasons, these are mine.

We've had this discussion previously, so I shouldn't have to explain myself--no disrespect intended. I did it again because this was directed at me, but I'll try not to defend myself again on this point. By the way, when I spoke of "trolls", I was envisioning the initial kind, not the internet kind. I'll stop using that one, as obviously it's taken the latter way, not the former.

I am confused tho':
Quote:
Understand that the way you feel about scrolling past PN, I feel about that particular tactic.
the last part doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying you feel THE SAME about that particular tactic, or that you feel DIFFERENTLY? I can't tell.

As to PN, engaging him would require reading his lengthy posts, and given I believe 90% of them are conspiratorially insane, I'm not about to spend the time. I pity the massive amount of time he puts into them, and kinda resent having to scroll past so much to find if there's anything pertinent, but it's not worth my time.

Which time I realized would be better spent outside walking the dogs and ducking rain drops, so if I can manage it, I'll sign off for now.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The Coffee Party is nothing more than a 100% , fully astroturf organization, brougth straight to you by the folks of the Obama White House.

Nothing more.


Everything the Tea Party is -

grass roots
legitimate
for freedom
pro American


The Coffee party is against.

John Roberts and Kiran Chetry omitted mentioning that Annabel Park, the founder of the so-called Coffee Party, worked as a volunteer for President Barack Obama's presidential campaign, during an interview on Wednesday's American Morning. The anchors also didn't mention Park's past work for the liberal New York Times.



Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2010/03/03/cnn-omits-coffee
-party-founders-past-obama-volunteer#ixzz0h9J6GOGJ



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


The Tea Party is nothing more than a 100% , fully astroturf organization, brougth [sic] straight to you by the folks of the Bush White House.

Nothing more.


Everything the Coffee Party is -

grass roots
legitimate
for freedom
pro American


The Tea party is against.


Fixed that for ya.

Rappy omitted mentioning that GlenBeck, one of the leaders of the so-called Tea Party, works as a paid shill for FauxNews. He also didn't mention Michelle Malkin's past work for the liberal New York Times, work for which she was paid directly by the Bush White House.

Also omitted was the organizational work in the Tea Party of GOP bigwig and multimillionaire lobbyist Dick Armey, among dozens of others.

The Tea Party is very much:

Pro big business and the corporatization of America.
Pro racism.
Anti-democracy.

The Coffee Party is the opposite.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:13 PM

STORYMARK


Hilarious that teabaggers are trying to make the case that because she did some volunteer work, and had a job at a newspaper a few years ago, that this is somehow LESS grass-roots than a movement started by Republican politicians, and advertised relentlessly on FOX.

Their level of self awareness is staggeringly infinitesimal.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:15 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

A "Rappy" is a kind of fart, named for the noise it makes.


The direct result of ass cheeks slapping together, desperately seeking the attention of anyone close enough to fall victim to their stench.

I do like the trash fire analogy, too.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:37 PM

TRAVELER


One would expect that a person starting a movement would be politically conscience. So it stands to reason they would have a background in politics. How much and are they active with some other politician or party would make them questionable.

I am curious to see where it goes. Will it grow and how active they will be?


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:47 PM

BYTEMITE


A volunteer is nothing, and her Obama support was pretty obvious, it's all over her facebook page.

You may yet find something behind this, but frankly, to me, it's more and more looking amateur league. The name, the talking points, the founder... Just seems like the creation of a kinda clueless college kid that other kinda clueless college kids happened to find via the social networking sites and now the Washington Post.

...9_9 If my brother joined this I'm hitting him over the head with a rock. Sadly, this is right up his trendy metropolitan college kid studio apartment alley. Right-wingers talk about people worshipping Obama. Not quite true, in general liberals were merely cautiously optimistic, but my brother? He was and IS a worshipper.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Hilarious that teabaggers are trying to make the case that because she did some volunteer work, and had a job at a newspaper a few years ago, that this is somehow LESS grass-roots than a movement started by Republican politicians, and advertised relentlessly on FOX.

Their level of self awareness is staggeringly infinitesimal.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



You DO know Rappy, right? He's the poster boy for how staggeringly dull a die-hard Republican can be. He's the guy who's so far behind, yet still keeps right on claiming that he's about to lap the field.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

A "Rappy" is a kind of fart, named for the noise it makes.


The direct result of ass cheeks slapping together, desperately seeking the attention of anyone close enough to fall victim to their stench.



Exactly.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:02 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
A volunteer is nothing, and her Obama support was pretty obvious, it's all over her facebook page.

You may yet find something behind this, but frankly, to me, it's more and more looking amateur league. The name, the talking points, the founder... Just seems like the creation of a kinda clueless college kid that other kinda clueless college kids happened to find via the social networking sites and now the Washington Post.


So... first this was suspect because maybe someone else was backing her and she had a background in political theory.... and now it's suspect cuz she started on her own and she had a background in political theory?



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:10 PM

BYTEMITE


No, it's not suspect anymore. Just... Kinda dumb. I mean, "tea-bagger" is actually funny, it has a basis and meaning and it's subversive and used often enough I have to be careful to not accidentally call tea-partiers that, because I try to show everyone at least SOME respect. This is just lackluster.

But no one ever said poli-sci majors had to minor in creativity.





*wander*

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


If she's a small-time volunteer, doesn't that point up the idea that this IS a grass-roots amateur effort? I thought that was what people supposedly loved about the alleged "Tea Party" movement, which was never grass-roots.

And the idea that her point of view should be dismissed because she volunteered for Obama? Okay, fine. Just so long as no one ever, EVER takes seriously any tea bagger who ever supported a Republican. Hey, fair's fair, right?




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:22 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, it does. That was my point.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, it does. That was my point.


Whew - for a minute there, I thought I was going to have to take the crazytalkers in the tea parties seriously, or something. :)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:37 PM

MAL4PREZ


I haven't seen the latest developments in this coffee thing, but what I liked when I first saw it was that it's pushing inclusion of everyone. Maybe that's my selection attention, but I thought they were trying to be anti-teabagger by stressing that anyone who wants to hang out and talk is A-OK. No shouting or Hitler sign required.

More importantly, coffee is SO much more satisfying than tea. Where's my damn latte anyway?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 3:20 PM

BYTEMITE


It's not like that any more. They've become more insulting. The forums are painfully partisan and burn with flames wars based on what I saw.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 3:52 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's not like that any more. They've become more insulting. The forums are painfully partisan and burn with flames wars based on what I saw.
That's a bummer. It begs the question: is everything that's wrong with politics and the media just a reflection of the average American mentality? Do they make us divisive and ignorant, or do we create them because only the most petty, stupid crap will earn our votes/viewership?

If I may be tangential, it reminds me of when Princess Diana died and people rushed out to buy tabloids full of articles blaming the paparazzi. Hello! If you didn't buy this shit, there wouldn't be a paparazzi!

It oddly makes me feel better. We deserve a downfall, if we're this stupid.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:12 PM

BYTEMITE


The tea parties were supposed to be open too, the rumour goes that it was liberals who actually originally started it (well, if it wasn't always astroturf, which it probably was). But I think that just IS the way of our country, we've got stubborn people on both sides who HATE each other, and anything that tries to be welcoming to both sides is eventually coopted by one side or the other.

And I agree with you. It's depressing as kittens huddled in snow. ._.

But if we can survive a crash, maybe we can build something better? I say we let the five groups go to town. We have constitutionalists, socialist/welfare state people, capitalists, small business libertarians, and anarchist cooperatives all build their own societies. If you're living in the system of your own choice, theoretically you should be happy, right?

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Thing is, Byte, even within those divisions, there are divisions. I'm a constitutionalist (which some will no doubt find high-larious), but I'm not necessarily a STRICT constitutionalist, or not as strict as some others want to be - but only about their particular issues. There are some who are 2nd Amendment (2A) supporters up to and including the EXCLUSION of just about everything else, and there are those who love everything about the document EXCEPT the Second, and so it goes with each amendment and article in that sacred document.

Thing is, you have to be somewhat strict, but where's the line? HOW strict? Those who say 2A can't be budged or even looked at or discussed, would likely never say that about the First Amendment. It *does*, after all, say that the freedom OF THE PRESS shall not be abridged. Shall we be strict constitutionalists on that score? Do YOU own an actual printing press?

See what I mean? Within each of the groups you've outlined, there are divisions and disagreement. I have no problem with freedom to assemble, free speech (even offensive speech - hell, put hardcore porn on at 3 in the afternoon on network TV if you want; I'll get over it), I have no problem if you have a machinegun, so long as you're not aiming it at me... You can have your freedom OF religion, as long as you accept that the document also guarantees me freedom FROM religion if that's MY choice.

In the socialist/welfare-state camp, you have people who want SOME "safety net" programs, and some who want cradle to grave care provided by their government. There are anarchists who want NO law at all, and there are anarchists like Frem, who admit that while that's a nice goal, we're not anywhere near there yet.

So even our divisions leave us divided. In the end, we're generally each a group of one.

And, of course, everybody dies alone.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:34 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm a constitutionalist
Me too, and as you describe.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:58 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, technically Frem is only "we're not there yet" WHILE we still have a system of government over our heads, which is technically where I'm at too, only I'm starting to get a little "oh FUCK it all" about it.

Frem and I might be at odds with people who want to be violent and make that choice for EVERYONE, but in the absence of government that my scenario proposed, we'd all get along just fine.

In any case, even with the divisions, people still have much more in common than if you toss EVERYONE in there wanting to have a say. So you'd be more likely to get shit done.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 6:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
That's a bummer. It begs the question: is everything that's wrong with politics and the media just a reflection of the average American mentality? Do they make us divisive and ignorant, or do we create them because only the most petty, stupid crap will earn our votes/viewership

Because most americans are conditioned straight from the cradle to play the game that way, us-them, yes-no, black-white, either-or...

And like Byte says, I don't believe we're "there" yet, but we ARE getting there - if it weren't for the collateral damage I'd be real keen on these hard-end ideologues slaughtering each other, which they might end up doin anyway before sanity takes hold, alas.

Politically, most people think Coke or Pepsi, me I dun give a fuck so long as it pours, but I've always been strange that way - back when grocery stores had a "generic" aisle with standard-issue, non nonsense boxes of stuff I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, especially being way cheaper, and to this day generally grab for the store brand, which, ironically enough, often has less artificial crap in it than some prettied up name brand...

Politicians are the same, they're supposed to listen to US, work for US, do what WE tell them, not vice versa, and so when it comes right down to it you could plunk ANY yahoo in the chair to do that, so why the hell are we choosing between a bunch of assholes bent on telling us what THEY are going to make US do ?

I'm sorry, but at this point of things trying to make american politics work like it was supposed to (and never, factually, did) is like trying to glue a shattered bottle back together.

-F

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:
is everything that's wrong with politics and the media just a reflection of the average American mentality?
I think it's a reflection of the worst of what's in us, with both of those appealing to it and pushing it to come out. Hopefully!

Is someone actually debating Michelle Malkin's qualifications?!?! All she has to do is open her mouth to end that discussion!

What IS the coffee party, anyway? Is it a sort of liberal answer to the tea party, or something else? To me it's just a ploy, and it's not going anywhere--it doesn't seem to have appealed to the real ugliness of the tea party, you're right that the name means nothing (despite "tea party" not meaning what it was supposed to, either, and the original "tea bagger" being a great joke). I think the tea party was initially grass roots, but didn't stay that way long; the "coffee party" I know nothing about, except that I've heard the name bandied about.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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