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Originally posted by piratenews:
"Nukem till they glow!"
-USAF 520th Aircraft Generation Squadron motto

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Originally posted by Niki2:
I got nothing against Israel, please know. I'm just so sick to death of America backing them no matter what they do--and they've been guilty of atrocities every bit as bad as the Palestinians from time to time.

I just want fairness, and I'm all for Israel's survival and flourishing, as long as it's not at the expense of the innocent!

And omygawd, don't tell people here you're Jewish...PN will crawl through the ether and strangle you!!! ;o)

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Many of the Jewish people I know feel the same way... Israel has been built on the suffering of others, and continues to make others suffer for whatever purpose

Hell, many Israelis are against the acts of their own government... I have posted some of their reactions before.

But the US doesn't change what they do, complain publicly and continue to support them with arms and money

to the point where most people don't really care if Israel survives at all. Perhaps the idea of a religious based state is wrong, perhaps it should be ripped apart and replaced with a more secular government that is inclusive of ALL the citizens of the area.

But that is talk, as everything the US has done up to now is talk.

If Israels actions are crimes, and the US keeps giving them money and guns... then the US shares those crimes... and that striped to the bone is why their is a war of terror going on right now.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Originally posted by mincingbeast:
i know, i'm jewish by ancestry, but also a militant, mouth-frothing atheist. i think the idea of a jewish state is dumb, as dumb as the idea of a christian or muslim state. frustrates me, though. there's isn't a single secular or inclusive state in the region, and suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't, is sorta weird. and yes, i get the colonialism angle, too. israel is, however, a fact on the ground. and no side has a monopoly on atrocities, sure.

however, its really hard to keep these thoughts seperate from my identity, and not feel like someone questioning israel's actions, or our unqualified support of them, isn't part of the ancient game of jew-baiting. i know that's not where ya'll are coming from, though...

with the possible exception of PN. PN, do not strangle me. I have hella many Mossad bodyguards, like all joos.

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Originally posted by mincingbeast:
interesting stuff. i've heard of traces of similar communities as far a field as china, but this is something new.

the reason why jews in zimbabwe look like zimbabwians (sic?), and chinese jews don't, is pretty straight forward. people screw; religions don't.

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Originally posted by mincingbeast:
emotions? i don't have any.

this is not the first time I've heard such stuff, believe it or not, and certainly not the last. far be it from me to defend a theist state.

i'm not surprised that we can't talk about israel without getting into the broader historical narrative of the perfidy of the jews.

its disappointing, though, coming from a free-thinking anarchist type, as opposed to the batshit crazy PN type...

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Originally posted by mincingbeast:
and the alternative is....what?

as i mentioned earlier, israel is far from the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that the united states shores up. its not even the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that is currently slaughtering and oppressing its own citizens. not even the only state that is a product of ham-fisted colonialism.

it is however, the only one where the dreaded JOOS are the ones being the assholes. hence, its the only one that is plugged into the longstanding narrative of JOO EVIL. and i firmly believe that the term "zionist", is a dodge, a way for someone to say "kike" without uttering the syllables.

screw israel--it is premised on bullshit theism and a sense of historical injury. but lets be honest: a lot of the hostility to israel is rooted as much in the "kosher" character of the state as it is in any sense of injustice.

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Originally posted by mincingbeast:
dont disagree with you mr. gino. israel is broken, and no damned good for the US. lets just not blame it all on jews, or even better, a world wide jewish conspiracy.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.

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Originally posted by mincingbeast:
ahem. i repeat, Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."

this is not a statement about the current misdeeds of israel, which i would generally agre with you on. this is a statement justifying the historical persecution of the jews because "they do shit like this" and always have. nobody is claiming the jews are angels, but it seems that you come pretty close to claiming the reverse. i dunno, for some reason i expected more from you.

EDIT:
"Lemme throw this last bit in, how would you feel if we had been directly financially and militarily supporting genocide in Rwanda while sucking up to the folks committing it in every way possible"

I imagine I'd be upset, but would like to think that I wouldn't segue into some sort of argument that "Well, Africans have always acted like this, and always will, and somebody has to say it, but thats why racism exists."

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.

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But the quest for statehood existed long before WW2 and the holocaust. It's a misnomer to think that statehood was simply a means of 'pay back' for the atrocities levied upon the Jewish people.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:


They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "

hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were

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Originally posted by kpo:

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:


They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "

hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were

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I use to think as you. I guess it's all in how you're taught history.

The Brits weren't going to hold onto the land forever.

It was more a fire sale / give away than " pay back ". 10's of 1000's of Jews had been immigrating into the area long before 1948.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by kpo:

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?

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On this matter, I can not. I don't know why it's deemed necessary to go forth in building these settlements , unless ( and I'm only guessing here ) it's thought that no compromise can be made w/ those who'd lob rockets at civilians. But it may be entirely something else all together.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by kpo:
I tend to defend Israel on two bases:

That however 'benevolently' Israel acted, people would still be determined to wipe it out - so pacifism isn't viable.

And although it is by far the stronger party in the conflict, it takes both parties to make peace.

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

or cut off food and supplys from a population

or use WP shells on a population

or bulldoze people out of their homes

or shoot farmers while they work their fields

etc, etc , etc

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

or cut off food and supplys from a population

or use WP shells on a population

or bulldoze people out of their homes

or shoot farmers while they work their fields

etc, etc , etc

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Yeah, WP shells were used. Illegally or w/ intent on civilians ? Not proven. Overlooking the fact that Pal militants routinely hide behind or under civilian buildings, knowing full well the Israelis are reluctant to shoot, with the world looking on. But there's only so much one can stand before their hand is forced. Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.

Bulldozers, shooting folks....sorry, I don't find such claims to be so credible as presented at face value.

On such matters, the REST of the story needs to be told.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?

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Two answers - yes and yes.

When others have vowed to wipe YOU out, then it's o.k. to wipe them out first.

Didn't Israel give UP land ? Something like GAZA ? And how was that GOOD FAITH deed repaid ? Rockets. Not a few or a few dozen, but 1000's of rockets.

When have the PALS ever negotiated in good faith ?


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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