This sickens me; yes, textbooks need up dating and a lot of what we're taught is bullshit...but to slant it, in a state already filled with conservatives..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Texas School Board's Vote Could Make Nation's History Textbooks more Conservative

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, March 19, 2010 14:38
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2432
PAGE 1 of 2

Monday, March 15, 2010 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This sickens me; yes, textbooks need up dating and a lot of what we're taught is bullshit...but to slant it, in a state already filled with conservatives, MORE to the right???
Quote:

In a move that is expected to inject more conservative-friendly language in school textbooks across the nation, the Texas Board of Education passed new curriculum standards for U.S. history and other social studies courses Friday.

The board's influence extends beyond the state because Texas is the one of the largest purchasers of school textbooks in the United States, The New York Times reports.

The tentatively approved curriculum would, among other things, question the assumption that the Founding Father's wanted a secular government and tout the superiority of American capitalism. The board also consistently voted down attempts to include more references to Hispanic role models in American history.

The vote came after three days of intense debate, with a final skirmish over how to teach the Battle of the Alamo.

Board members tentatively approved the new standards 11-4 after three fractious days of debate that touched on civil rights, religion, politics, music and a host of other topics that will be covered in the new requirements for classroom instruction and textbooks.

"I cannot go back to my community and say I participated in perpetrating this fraud on the students of this state," said board member Mavis Knight, D-Dallas, one of the four negative votes.

Knight charged that some board members - primarily social conservatives - "manipulated" the process to insert their own political and religious views into the document, "whether or not it was appropriate."

On the other side, board member Terri Leo, R-Spring, called the standards a "world class document" that will stand out across the nation.

Curriculum standards adopted by the board will remain in place for the next decade, dictating what is taught in all Texas schools and providing the basis for future textbooks and achievement tests.

Texas standards often wind up being taught in other states because national publishers tailor their materials to Texas, one of the biggest textbook publishers in the nation.

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/2010/3/12/texas_school_boards_vot
e_could_make.htm


Fuck.

I wonder if creationism will work its way in?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 15, 2010 8:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA



One interesting hobby of mine is collecting old history/civics/social studies textbooks...

It's kind of interesting to look at them from different years and cross compare what the accepted bullshit stories where, what the accepted level and direction of racism was, and how the stories themselves change, as well as the perspective and telling of our history.

Back in my day our history class did not acknowledge even the existence of the anti-federalists, and posited that the federalist papers were merely an explanation gifted down upon us unwashed masses from our betters.

Having a full set of slightly outdated encyclopedia britannica via a yard sale and the good graces of my mother, I took *ISSUE* with that falsehood in a fashion that probably would have seen me pitched out of the class were it not for the fact that the argument excited the classes interest in history to where they started digging in hard enough to make their own arguments.

But yes, most history textbooks are completely fulla shit, and the how and the where are always telling of what the accepted lies of an era were.

Which is why I collect old ones - you'd be shocked at how racist some of em were even up into the 1970's.

-F

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Monday, March 15, 2010 8:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sadly, I wouldn't be shocked at all, nor by the amount of misinformation, white-washing and propaganda. In California, our textbooks didn't even MENTION the Japanese internment camps we had right here in our state. Sad...and infuriating!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 15, 2010 11:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



"Half of history is covering up the truth..."

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Monday, March 15, 2010 12:09 PM

MAL4PREZ


When I was in high school, the schoolboard made an effort to get rid of our history textbook, which one board member called "a stench in God's nostrils." I believe she took offense over the chapters that mentioned Native Americans and settlers. As in, our textbook did not try to paint the pioneers as kind-hearted, 100% innocent and purely angelic prophets of God.

Thankfully, the sane people in my hometown prevailed and this women and her ilk (who also wanted to completely cut funding for music and arts in the schools) were promptly voted off the board.

Honestly, I don't feel so optimistic for the sane people of Texas. They're there, but I think the loons and the sheep outnumber them. I hope to be proven wrong. Hey - even the wingbats on the Kansas schoolboard got beat over evolution, right?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, March 15, 2010 1:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, hopefully the new history books will have explicit instructions for how to burn witches...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Monday, March 15, 2010 2:16 PM

MAL4PREZ


Don't forget the marshmallows and graham crackers!

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, hopefully the new history books will have explicit instructions for how to burn witches...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions




-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, March 15, 2010 2:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


But of course - witch-flavored S'mores are just so wickedly decadent! :)


Remember, I actually grew up in West Texas. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I had to get the hell out. I was having a conversation once with a co-worker, sitting in the parking lot looking up at the stars, and he said to me, and I quote, "Y'know, they say some o' them stars are even out past Pluto." True story.

My reaction? I pointed out to him that with one exception, ALL of them were "out past Plew-Toe". And then I left. Seriously, these are the kinds of people who had to cancel the local book-burning when they discovered that none of them actually HAD any books. This is the place where the state tree is a '79 Camaro wrapped around a telephone pole.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Monday, March 15, 2010 3:35 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
But of course - witch-flavored S'mores are just so wickedly decadent! :)


Remember, I actually grew up in West Texas. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I had to get the hell out. I was having a conversation once with a co-worker, sitting in the parking lot looking up at the stars, and he said to me, and I quote, "Y'know, they say some o' them stars are even out past Pluto." True story.

My reaction? I pointed out to him that with one exception, ALL of them were "out past Plew-Toe". And then I left.


So you got upset because you agreed with his assessment of the universe? Usually people reserve their outrage for people they disagree with.

History books change over time to reflect the general consensus of historians of the time , it’s no surprise that as we learn more the details change. In the past pro-USA sentiment may have been overdone, but now the pendulum has swung the other way and its time to remove some of the liberal anti Americanism from the history books if it exists. I personally haven’t seen it, but I do think the choice of history topics taught has taken a far left tilt.

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Monday, March 15, 2010 3:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Upset? Hardly. More of a "facepalm" reaction. His statement was more along the lines of *SOME* stars are beyond Pluto. Yeah, that's true, but it also shows a pretty profound ignorance of the universe around us. It's almost at stupid as the right-wingers going on about how a recent snowstorm disproves global climate change.


Quote:

In the past pro-USA sentiment may have been overdone, but now the pendulum has swung the other way and its time to remove some of the liberal anti Americanism from the history books if it exists. I personally haven’t seen it, but I do think the choice of history topics taught has taken a far left tilt.


So while you admit that you have no evidence of it, you still think the topics have gone too far left. Tell me, are you always this passionate about the things you claim to be ignorant of?




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Monday, March 15, 2010 4:03 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

I wonder if creationism will work its way in?




They're working on it.

Fortunately, the good fight has resulted in Creationism, Creation "Science" and "Intelligent" Design getting flattened in the courts. So, we have precedence. What they are doing now is chipping away at the definition of Science at the local level. I believe this tactic has been used in Idaho and Ken Miller spoke about it (the video is somewhere on youtube).

Nothing like seeing a definition of Science not include the requirement of evidence. Ya. Awesome...

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, March 15, 2010 4:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, hopefully the new history books will have explicit instructions for how to burn witches...

Yeah, before they turn us all into newts.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Monday, March 15, 2010 5:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, hopefully the new history books will have explicit instructions for how to burn witches...

Yeah, before they turn us all into newts.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010




I got better. :)

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Monday, March 15, 2010 5:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So has anyone actually seen the new curriculum, or are you all just jumping to conclusions based on media reports that might possibly be somewhat biased?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, March 15, 2010 5:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/teks/social/USHistory073109.pdf


Read 'em and weep.


A quick perusal, but I didn't see any mention of anything having to do with Clinton other than his impeachment, Nixon gets credit for opening up China, but no mention is made of HIS impeachment and resignation; didn't see any mention in the "history" section of things like, say, the Kennedy assassination, but it does note that students should know the really important years like 1958, 1968, 1989, and 2001. Its focus on the 90s seems to be entirely credited to Phyllis Schlafly, the Moral Majority, and Newt Gingrich, whom it fails to note was railing against an adulterous President while being an adulterous Congressman.

I also like how it describes "muckrakers" like Upton Sinclair, Susan B. Anthony, and W.E.B. Du Bois.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mal, I'm proud of your schoolboard...can we clone them? Please??

Yes, Mike, I remember you saying that, and never forgot it--mainly because I couldn't conceive of someone like you in that environment. I'd have been ridden out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, by the age of 16! Glad you got out; you may well have saved your soul.

Kirk:
Quote:

reflect the general consensus of historians of the time
I note you said "historians" of the time--you really think our historians are going to look back on this time the way those books want to?? Check 'em out, since you are making assumptions, and get some facts. I dare you. You might also want to read a few of the existing textbooks and cite some reality about them going "too far left", before you start making judgments. Just a thought.

How long since you were in high school? Did you read textbooks then that were "too far left"? If so, which ones please?

Sigmanunki, I haven't met you before, so if you're new to FFF, welcome. If you're new to RWE, watch out! I agree with what you wrote, and yes, I've seen myriad examples of it on the local level. It makes my hair stand on end.

Same to you, Geezer; as Mike's link indicates, you can get the facts "straight from the horse's mouth" and decide for yourself before you start trashing news reports. If you want to, that is.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hmmm, I note the insertion of "Social Gospel", and, as you mentioned Mike, various interesting changes. () denotes additions, (()) denotes removals:
Quote:

...."evaluate the impact of (muckrakers) and reform leaders (including Upton Sinclair), Susan B. Anthony, (Ida B. Wells), and W.E.B. DuBois ((and Robert LaFollette)) on American society

evaluate the impact of third parties (including Populist and Progressive Parties). ((and their candidates such as Eugene Debs, H. Ross Perot, and George Wallace))

analyze causes and effects of ((significant issues)) (such as) including immigration, (Social Darwinism)...

explain the roles played by significant military leaders during World War II, including ((Omar Bradley)), Dwight Eisenhower, Douglas MacArthur, (Oveta Culp Hobby, Benjamin O. Davis. and George Marshall) ((and George Patton))...

(describe Richard M. Nixon’s role in the normalization of relations with China and the policy of détente;)

(describe Ronald Reagan’s role in restoring national confidence, such as Reaganomics and Peace with Strength)...

(identify significant conservative advocacy organizations and individuals, such as Newt Gingrich, Phyllis Schlafly, and the Moral Majority)...

(discuss the role of third party candidates, such as Ross Perot and Ralph Nader.) [note: Several members believe that another SE should be added that includes liberal organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, Move On.org, Sierra Club, etc.]

identify the effects of population growth and distribution ((and predict future effects)) on the physical environment [note: One member suggests that this phrase invites doomsday scenarios, therefore eliminate phrase]

analyze the effects of the Great Depression on the U.S. economy and government, (such as widespread unemployment, forced repatriation of Mexican Americans, and increased government intervention)

((explain the impact of significant international events such as World War I and World War II on changes in the role of the federal government))

[replaced by]

[describe the effects of political scandals including Teapot Dome, Watergate, and Clinton’s impeachment on the views of U.S. citizens concerning trust in the federal government and its leaders]

analyze the effects of landmark U.S. Supreme Court decisions including (Plessy v. Ferguson, Hernandez v. Texas,) Brown v. Board of Education, and (Tinker v. Des Moines( ((and Reynolds v. Sims))

evaluate the contributions of significant political and social leaders in the United States such as Andrew Carnegie, ((Shirley Chisholm)), (Henry B. Gonzalez, Thurgood Marshall, Sandra Day O’Connor, and Billy Graham) ((and Franklin D. Roosevelt))

That's a taste. Decide for yourself.

I saw a lot of "analyze" pulled out in favor of the word "describe". That bothers me. Rather than learning route stuff, I believe if anything, school should teach us how to think and question, not just regurgitate material we're given.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:33 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Apollo terrafarming successful on moon

Quote:

Neil Armstrong isn't worthy of Texas textbooks?

As some readers may know, Texas State Board of Education has held meetings this week (read more) to conduct a variety of business. Fortunately they haven't engaged in their anti-science attacks on evolution, but there have been other questionable actions.

As part of the process a Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills review team composed of parents and teachers has suggested removing Neil Armstrong from a "science strand" in a 5th grade social studies book.

Effectively this would remove the mention of Armstrong has a figure of historical significance from 5th grade textbooks. I asked board spokeswoman Debbie Ratcliffe why this change was made and she explained:

The team said they made this proposal because he was not a scientist. The State Board of Education has not voted for or against that proposal yet. It won't vote on the social studies proposal until January.

I can sympathize with board members who do not want to over-burden students with names, dates and places. I've written before that we should teach our children how to learn, rather than how to memorize. But Neil Armstrong?

He's the single-most identifiable figure associated with NASA, and certainly took the space agency's most inspirational leap. If students cannot appreciate the science underlying launching a man to the moon, what can inspire them?

Moreover, how significant has the presence of NASA's human spaceflight home in Houston been to the science community and economy of Texas?

By the way, Armstrong arguably was a scientist. He received an aeronautical engineering from Purdue University, and a Master of Science degree in aerospace engineering from the University of Southern California. He later was a professor of aerospace engineering at the University of Cincinnati.

Keep Armstrong.

http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2009/09/neil_armstrong_isnt_wor
thy_of_texas_textbooks.html



Never mind that he never walked on The Moon.
www.piratenews.org/hollywood.html


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Mal, I'm proud of your schoolboard...can we clone them? Please??

Yes, Mike, I remember you saying that, and never forgot it--mainly because I couldn't conceive of someone like you in that environment. I'd have been ridden out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, by the age of 16! Glad you got out; you may well have saved your soul.

Kirk:
Quote:

reflect the general consensus of historians of the time
I note you said "historians" of the time--you really think our historians are going to look back on this time the way those books want to?? Check 'em out, since you are making assumptions, and get some facts. I dare you. You might also want to read a few of the existing textbooks and cite some reality about them going "too far left", before you start making judgments. Just a thought.

How long since you were in high school? Did you read textbooks then that were "too far left"? If so, which ones please?

Sigmanunki, I haven't met you before, so if you're new to FFF, welcome. If you're new to RWE, watch out! I agree with what you wrote, and yes, I've seen myriad examples of it on the local level. It makes my hair stand on end.

Same to you, Geezer; as Mike's link indicates, you can get the facts "straight from the horse's mouth" and decide for yourself before you start trashing news reports. If you want to, that is.




Thanks, Niki - I had tried to include some of that stuff, complete with additions and strikethroughs, but the forum software was just plugging it all in as complete text, and NOT noting the additions and deletions.

Funny that Clinton merits only a mention involving impeachment, while no mention seems to be made of Iran-Contra under Reagan, hundreds of dead Marines in a barracks bombing in Beirut (also under Reagan - how quickly we seem to forget), or his monumental deficits and debt.

And Nixon? Please. The man QUIT - I guess that makes him a "winner" like Sarah Palin, eh? He quit under a cloud, narrowly avoiding impeachment and removal from office, and probably indictment and conviction and prison as well, and that gets glossed over by his "normalization of relations with China". Great.







"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
...but I didn't see any mention of anything having to do with Clinton other than his impeachment, Nixon gets credit for opening up China, but no mention is made of HIS impeachment and resignation;


The same sentence that mentioned Clinton mentioned Watergate.

"...describe the effects of political scandals including Teapot Dome, Watergate, and Clinton’s impeachment on the views of U.S. citizens concerning trust in the federal government and its leaders..."

Any telling of the Watergate story would include the Nixon impeachment/resignation as part of the effects "...on the views of U.S. citizens concerning trust in the federal government and its leaders...".

The Balkans Crisis, which occurred on Clinton's watch, is also mentioned, so Bill gets more ink than you think.

Quote:

didn't see any mention in the "history" section of things like, say, the Kennedy assassination,

Or the other two presidential assassinations that occurred in the period covered. Lots of stuff that happened 1877 to 2010 isn't included. So?

Quote:

but it does note that students should know the really important years like 1958, 1968, 1989, and 2001.

A few more than that, and you got one wrong.

"explain the significance of the following years dates: 1898, 1914-1918, 1929, 1941-1945, and 1957, 1968, 1989, 2001, and 2008."

Let's see. Spanish-American War, WWI, Depression, WWII, Sputnik, Vietnam and Johnson doesn't run, End of Cold War, 9/11, Democratic majority in Congress and economy tanks. So?

Quote:

Its focus on the 90s seems to be entirely credited to Phyllis Schlafly, the Moral Majority, and Newt Gingrich


This is the sum total mention of these:
"identify significant conservative advocacy organizations and individuals, such as Newt Gingrich, Phyllis Schlafly, and the Moral Majority."
Hardly the "Focus on the 90s".

Quote:

I also like how it describes "muckrakers" like Upton Sinclair, Susan B. Anthony, and W.E.B. Du Bois.



Actually, it's:
"evaluate the impact of muckrakers and reform leaders including Upton Sinclair, Susan B. Anthony, Ida B. Wells, and W.E.B. DuBois on American society;"

Upton Sinclair was a Muckraker, and it's not a prejorative term. Google 'Upton Sinclair Muckraker' and you'll find plenty of folk called him that as a complement, as one who exposed social ills TPTB didn't want brought to light. Susan B. Anthony, Ida B. Wells, and W.E.B. DuBois were reform leaders, don't you think?

Try taking off the Flamin' Offended Liberal goggles and actually reading with an open mind.

How about stuff like:

"...analyze political issues such as Indian policies, the growth of political machines, civil service reform, and beginnings of Populism..."

"...explain why significant events, policies, and individuals, including the Spanish-American War, U.S. imperialism, Henry Cabot Lodge, Alfred Thayer Mahan, and Theodore Roosevelt, moved the United States into the position of a world power..."

"(C) identify significant leaders and political activist organizations of the civil rights movement, including Martin Luther King, Jr, Cesar Chavez, Betty Friedan, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), American Indian Movement (AIM), and Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF); and
(D) evaluate changes in the United States that have resulted from the civil rights movement such as increased participation of minorities in the political process."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
no mention seems to be made of Iran-Contra under Reagan,

Just a rumour. Never happened. Ever.
And that's a Rapfact!


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Grampa Walton wrote:


Let's see. Spanish-American War, WWI, Depression, WWII, Sputnik, Vietnam and Johnson doesn't run, End of Cold War, 9/11, Economy collapses after eight years of profligate spending by the so-called "conservative" party.



There. Fixed that for ya.

Quote:


Try taking off the Flamin' Offended Liberal goggles and actually reading with an open mind.



Are those anything like your Flamin' Offended Conservative Goggles? How do conservative goggles work, anyway? Blinders in front, and rose-colored lenses mirrored on the inside so you can be oh-so-impressed with yourself and see things behind you as better than they actually were, while never once seeing what's straight in front of you?





Oh, lookit ME! I'm an Offended Conservative!




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
no mention seems to be made of Iran-Contra under Reagan,

Just a rumour. Never happened. Ever.
And that's a Rapfact!


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010



"We do not negotiate with terrorists. We give them everything they ask for." - Ronaldus Magnus.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

"We do not negotiate with terrorists. We give them everything they ask for." - Ronaldus Magnus.





Only if they...


play nice with US.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:24 PM

TRAVELER


The high school history books I was taught from were not complete. They misrepresented many issues. I am talking the late 60's. I would not be surprised that it has been that way for ages and has continued in that direction since then.

For anyone who seeks truth about United States and world historys I suggest the library. I can't imagine getting a good perspective of history from one book that is suppose to cover all aspects of our own and the worlds history.

I had a history teacher that kept a collection of books in his classroom for us to read so we could get a broader sense of history other then our text books.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Are those anything like your Flamin' Offended Conservative Goggles? How do conservative goggles work, anyway? Blinders in front, and rose-colored lenses mirrored on the inside so you can be oh-so-impressed with yourself and see things behind you as better than they actually were, while never once seeing what's straight in front of you?



Mike, Mike, Mike. So you got no real response to the quotes from the actual document that show your "impressions" were so much bullshit? Did you just expect that everyone would accept your version without checking to see what you'd ignored, omitted, and mis-stated? And when you're caught out, the usual insults is all you can come up with? Weak.

But anyway. I showed the fallacies in your first series of complants, and you apparently got no rebuttal but name-calling. Got any more complaints I can disprove?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Are those anything like your Flamin' Offended Conservative Goggles? How do conservative goggles work, anyway? Blinders in front, and rose-colored lenses mirrored on the inside so you can be oh-so-impressed with yourself and see things behind you as better than they actually were, while never once seeing what's straight in front of you?



Mike, Mike, Mike. So you got no real response to the quotes from the actual document that show your "impressions" were so much bullshit? Did you just expect that everyone would accept your version without checking to see what you'd ignored, omitted, and mis-stated? And when you're caught out, the usual insults is all you can come up with? Weak.

But anyway. I showed the fallacies in your first series of complants, and you apparently got no rebuttal but name-calling. Got any more complaints I can disprove?



"Keep the Shiny side up"




Oh, simmer down, Grampy. Are you so wrapped up in your own bullshit that you've completely missed that *I* was the one who provided the link to the curriculum? You asked about it, but apparently couldn't find it, so I did, and posted it.

By the way, you got "complants" wrong. Care to disprove that? :)

Your mention of "U.S. imperialism" as part of your attempt at showing "liberal balance" is exceedingly weak, especially in the context given:

Quote:


"...explain why significant events, policies, and individuals, including the Spanish-American War, U.S. imperialism, Henry Cabot Lodge, Alfred Thayer Mahan, and Theodore Roosevelt, moved the United States into the position of a world power..."

(Emphasis yours).

Yeah, it sounds so liberal when you say imperialism moved us into a position of world power... For the record, liberals generally view U.S. imperialism in a NEGATIVE light, not the positive spin that curriculum is trying to portray.

By the way, thanks for sinking to the insult level to prove your point. I guess that shows that you've got nothing, right? No new tale to tell there... It's the same ol' story from the same ol' Geezer.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:41 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Kirk:
Quote:

reflect the general consensus of historians of the time
I note you said "historians" of the time--you really think our historians are going to look back on this time the way those books want to?? Check 'em out, since you are making assumptions, and get some facts. I dare you. You might also want to read a few of the existing textbooks and cite some reality about them going "too far left", before you start making judgments. Just a thought.

How long since you were in high school? Did you read textbooks then that were "too far left"? If so, which ones please?



It seems in typical liberal fashion you either have poor reading comprehension of just intentionally distorted what I said. If you will reread what I said, you will find that I was conceding that the content of current history books is not so much the problem as is the focus of the curricula.

I have heard many examples of history books that distort the truth but have not personally verified them. One example would be the myth that the US government intentionally sold blankets infected with smallpox to the Indians. It’s become accepted as fact though there is zero evidence that it ever happened. It’s also commonly taught that disease brought by the Spanish killed off the Aztec empire, were in reality the most recent evidence suggests that it was a North American disease similar the Hanta virus.

My problem is not with the books, but with the quality of the instruction and the focus on subjects intended to taint the minds of the youth by only teaching the negative aspects of American history. Slavery, internment camps, Watergate, etc. , are all important topics, but to focus on the negative without balance just demoralizes the youth and makes them ashamed to be Americans when they should be proud of the great achievements of their country even with it’s flaws.

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"One example would be the myth that the US government intentionally sold blankets infected with smallpox to the Indians. It’s become accepted as fact though there is zero evidence that it ever happened."

It has ? That's news to me. And, can you find an example in a HISTORY TEXTBOOK that claims that ?

"It’s also commonly taught that disease brought by the Spanish killed off the Aztec empire, were in reality the most recent evidence suggests that it was a North American disease similar the Hanta virus."

Though the plague DID kill between 2 and 9 M Aztecs out of ~22 M. It doesn't get clear of all blame.

BTW, there is ALSO a theory that the Spanish intentionally released goats to strip away the lush vegetation on which the Aztecs depended. The theory goes that once the Aztec diet became poor they were less able to ward off immune challenges. Seeing as how that's a NEW theory also backed by significant geological evidence, I suppose you will credit this one too ? Or does your interest only go as far as proving to yourself what you want proven ?


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:24 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


For the record, when the Japanese approved a new history textbook that failed to mention Japanese atrocities during WWII there was international outrage.

from WIKI
"Japanese history textbook controversies refers to controversial content in government-approved history textbooks used in the secondary education (junior high schools and high schools) of Japan. The controversies primarily concern what some international observers perceive to be a systematic distortion of the historical record propagated in the Japanese educational system, which seeks to whitewash the actions of the Empire of Japan during WWII.[1]

Also at issue is the constitutionality of the governmentally-approved textbook depictions of World War II, Japanese war crimes, and Japanese imperialism during the first half of the 20th century. The history textbook controversies have been an issue of deep concern both domestically and internationally, particularly in states which were victims of Imperial Japan during the war."


Though I guess the US is exempt when it comes to teaching accurate histories.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:34 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
BTW, there is ALSO a theory that the Spanish intentionally released goats to strip away the lush vegetation on which the Aztecs depended. The theory goes that once the Aztec diet became poor they were less able to ward off immune challenges. Seeing as how that's a NEW theory also backed by significant geological evidence, I suppose you will credit this one too ? Or does your interest only go as far as proving to yourself what you want proven ?



I hadn’t heard of the diabolical plot by the Spanish to kill Aztecs with goats. It's almost certain that they intentionally released goats. It seems more likely that it was done to clear cropland without anticipating the other consequences. I’ll have to read up on the theory and see if there’s anything to it.

You may be right about the Indian blanket myth not being in textbooks but it has definitely been taught in many schools and universities by ignorant instructors.



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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"You may be right about the Indian blanket myth not being in textbooks but it has definitely been taught in many schools and universities by ignorant instructors."

And you know this for a fact --- how exactly ?


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:02 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"You may be right about the Indian blanket myth not being in textbooks but it has definitely been taught in many schools and universities by ignorant instructors."

And you know this for a fact --- how exactly ?


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


The most famous recent example I can think of off hand is the teachings of Ward Churchill at the University of Colorado.

A http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdfbstract

“In this analysis of the genocide rhetoric employed
over the years by Ward Churchill, an ethnic
studies professor at the University of Colorado, a
"distressing" conclusion is reached: Churchill has
habitually committed multiple counts of research
misconduct--specifically, fabrication and falsification.
While acknowledging the "politicization" of the
topic and evidence of other outrages committed
against Native American tribes in times past, this
study examines the different versions of the
"smallpox blankets" episode published by Churchill
between 1994 and 2003. The "preponderance of
evidence" standard of proof strongly indicates that
Churchill fabricated events that never occurred--
namely the U.S. Army's alleged distribution of smallpox
infested blankets to the Mandan Indians in
1837. The analysis additionally reveals that Churchill
falsified sources to support his fabricated version
of events, and also concealed evidence in his
cited sources that actually disconfirms, rather than
substantiates, his allegations of genocide.
All”

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:10 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But you forgot the MOST important point:

It was noted b/c of its CONTROVERSY - which means - it's not accepted.

And don't forget: Ward Churchill was talking about mainland US Indians, not Central or South American Indians. It IS an accepted fact that when the white settlers moved into the continent, they encountered few Indians. Disease has long been surmised as the reason for that curious lack of people. And the study you pointed to re the Aztecs is not relatable at all to mainland US Indians.

And since you seem to freely slander 'liberals' let me return the favor: it seems you jackass CONservatives have got your facts wrong - as usual.

***************************************************************

Just to recap

You said many, but could come up with only one.
You implied grammar and high school public education, it was a university.
You said it was accepted as fact, it is controversial.
You said it applied to the Aztecs, it applies to N American Indians.
You said it was in texts, only to have to retract that statement.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I'm betting myself a lot of money you'll slink off of this thread, never to return to it.

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

It’s also commonly taught that disease brought by the Spanish killed off the Aztec empire, were in reality the most recent evidence suggests that it was a North American disease similar the Hanta virus.


I'm curious; do you have any cites for that claim? On its surface, it seems a bit outrageous. Is there any name or record of this mystery disease? I only ask because Hanta virus, or really ANY of the hemorrhagic fevers, are really quite rare, and generally an "outbreak" consists of a dozen cases or less, so it seems a bit of a stretch to lay the devastation of an empire of more than twenty million all at the feet of such an historically rare disease.

I'm not trying to be snarky or disagreeable, either; this is honestly the very first time I've ever heard this postulated as THE cause for the collapse of the Aztec civilization. My gut feeling is that there were MANY root causes for its decline and fall. If the rest of world history is any indicator, it was an empire already in a state of decay and decline, and the diseases brought by the Conquistadors weakened the population further, which would make them more susceptible to diseases which were already around, but not particularly lethal nor overly communicable (hemorrhagic fever outbreaks tend to burn themselves out rather quickly BECAUSE they're so ungodly fast at killing their hosts, often before they can infect others, thus ending the diseases transmission vectors). This, in turn, further weakened a civilization that was now knocked down to its knees, coupled with the toppling of their "god"-leader by the Spaniards, which brings a lack of faith in the old ways, and a general malaise and lethargy about the civilization as a whole, until the once-proud followers simply disappear into the wilderness to seek a new way.

Point being, it's rarely ONE SINGLE THING that can be seen as the absolute ending occurrence that puts the final nail in an empire. It's a systemic falling down, a collapse of several societal parts at once.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Point being, it's rarely ONE SINGLE THING that can be seen as the absolute ending occurrence that puts the final nail in an empire. It's a systemic falling down, a collapse of several societal parts at once.



Mike, puhleeze, don't let's bring REASON into a discussion like this. K?


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Point being, it's rarely ONE SINGLE THING that can be seen as the absolute ending occurrence that puts the final nail in an empire. It's a systemic falling down, a collapse of several societal parts at once.



Mike, puhleeze, don't let's bring REASON into a discussion like this. K?


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010




Dang. Can't win for losin'... Grampy's mad at me (or maybe he's just yelling at a cloud) for not seeing things with his peculiar brand of "reason", and now you're telling me that there's no room for reason in this thread. I'm confuzzled! My brain hurts!




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm confuzzled! My brain hurts!



Just knee-jerk, like the rest of the so-called "reasonables" here. Facts have no place in RWED.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
..you've completely missed that *I* was the one who provided the link to the curriculum? You asked about it, but apparently couldn't find it, so I did, and posted it.


Thanks. Made it so much easier to prove your bias.

Come on, Mike. You got no complaints against the curriculum you posted that will hold up to objective analysis, or you'd give them. If you actually have some substantive arguments, Bring 'em on.
Quote:


By the way, thanks for sinking to the insult level to prove your point.


Sorry. Didn't mean to poach on your territory.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's about more than textbooks, it's about CURRICULUM, and the people in charge of deciding it. Leaving aside the specific textbook examples and the rationale for them from either side, here are some of the other signal shifts that the Texas Board endorsed last Friday:
Quote:


- A greater emphasis on "the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s." This means not only increased favorable mentions of Schlafly, the founder of the antifeminist Eagle Forum, but also more discussion of the Moral Majority, the Heritage Foundation, the National Rifle Association and Newt Gingrich's Contract With America.

- A reduced scope for Latino history and culture. A proposal to expand such material in recognition of Texas' rapidly growing Hispanic population was defeated in last week's meetings-provoking one board member, Mary Helen Berlanga, to storm out in protest. "They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don't exist," she said of her conservative colleagues on the board. "They are rewriting history, not only of Texas but of the United States and the world."

- Changes in specific terminology. Terms that the board's conservative majority felt were ideologically loaded are being retired. Hence, "imperialism" as a characterization of America's modern rise to world power is giving way to "expansionism," and "capitalism" is being dropped in economic material, in favor of the more positive expression "free market." (The new recommendations stress the need for favorable depictions of America's economic superiority across the board.)

- A more positive portrayal of Cold War anticommunism. Disgraced anticommunist crusader Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin senator censured by the Senate for his aggressive targeting of individual citizens and their civil liberties on the basis of their purported ties to the Communist Party, comes in for partial rehabilitation. The board recommends that textbooks refer to documents published since McCarthy's death and the fall of the Soviet bloc that appear to show expansive Soviet designs to undermine the U.S. government.

- Language that qualifies the legacy of 1960s liberalism. Great Society programs such as Title IX-which provides for equal gender access to educational resources-and affirmative action, intended to remedy historic workplace discrimination against African-Americans, are said to have created adverse "unintended consequences" in the curriculum's preferred language.

- Thomas Jefferson no longer included among writers influencing the nation's intellectual origins. Jefferson, a deist who helped pioneer the legal theory of the separation of church and state, is not a model founder in the board's judgment. Among the intellectual forerunners to be highlighted in Jefferson's place: medieval Catholic philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas, Puritan theologian John Calvin and conservative British law scholar William Blackstone. Heavy emphasis is also to be placed on the founding fathers having been guided by strict Christian beliefs.

- Excision of recent third-party presidential candidates Ralph Nader (from the left) and Ross Perot (from the centrist Reform Party). Meanwhile, the recommendations include an entry listing Confederate General Stonewall Jackson as a role model for effective leadership, and a statement from Confederate President Jefferson Davis accompanying a speech by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln.

http://www.ketknbc.com/news/what-texas-textbooks-may-redefine

To me, it's a distinct reflection of a conservative viewpoint, one which may not only be inaccurate in some case, but which DEFINITELY slants to the right...if you think textbooks and curriculum have been slanted too much to the left, these attitudes are going to make you very happy.

A comment from someone in response to the article (so I cannot verify if the comment reflects accuracy):
Quote:

Heavy emphasis is also to be placed on the founding fathers having been guided by strict Christian beliefs.

Obviously Don McElroy has no clue about the founding fathers. Yes they were religious, but they were not exclusively guided by "strong christian principles" alone.

Many of the Founding fathers were Mason's - such as George Washington. Others were not puritan in their beliefs and thought that religion was too strict.

The guiding force behind the writing of the Constitution was actually philosophy. The writings of Plato were studied and the Roman ideals were incorporated, thus many were termed "Republicans".

Perhaps if they want to revamp History they need to consult with Historians, those actually trained in the subject. This would then put them on the right track.

Here's another indication of Texas' attitudes just "maybe" being a bit skewed to the right:
Quote:

The director of science curriculum for the Texas Education Agency (TEA) was forced to resign in November after she notified people about a lecture critical of “intelligent design” (ID).

Christine Castillo Comer, 56, was pressured to step down after she forwarded an e-mail to several others mentioning that a speaker critical of ID, the latest variant of creationism, was coming to Austin on Nov.2. Comer sent a notice about the talk to a local online community as an “FYI.”

The speaker, Barbara Forrest, is a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University. Forrest is an acknowledged expert on ID and coauthor of the book Creationism’s Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design. Forrest, who serves on the Americans United Board of Trustees, was an expert witness in a federal court case that struck down the teaching of ID in Dover, Pa., public schools.

Apparently, just sending information about Forrest’s talk was enough to get Comer fired. Lizzette Reynolds, a former staff member at the U.S. Department of Education now working for TEA, played a key role in Comer’s ouster. She responded to Comer’s e-mail about the ID lecture by urging Comer’s bosses to fire her.

The Austin American-Statesman reported that Reynolds e-mailed Comer’s superiors just hours after Comer sent the e-mail about Forrest’s talk. Her message said, “This is highly inappropriate. I believe this is an offense that calls for termination or, at the very least, reassignment of responsibilities. This is something that the State Board, the Governor’s Office and members of the Legislature would be extremely upset to see because it assumes this is a subject that the agency supports.”

“I don’t see how I took a position by FYI-ing on a lecture like I FYI on global warming or stem-cell research,” Comer said. “I send around all kinds of stuff, and I’m not accused of endorsing it.”

Comer told The Times that recently she had been pressured to stop saying that Texas education officials support the teaching of evolution. Part of her job involved responding to letters and e-mails from people asking about how the subject is taught in Texas public schools. Comer said she always responded by saying that the State Board of Education supports the teaching of evolution. But she said recently she was told to stop saying that.

Advocates of teaching standard science are worried, saying that the ouster of Comer does not bode well. In addition, earlier this year, Texas Gov. Rick Perry appointed a creationist, Don McLeroy, to head the State Board of Education.

Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, blasted TEA officials for forcing out Comer and called on them to promptly reinstate her.

“By noting Forrest’s talk, Comer was simply doing her job: alerting people to a resource they might find useful,” Lynn said. “I am appalled at this action by TEA and urge officials to immediately correct this gross injustice.”

Continued Lynn, “It’s a sad day when a science expert can lose her job merely for recommending that people hear a speaker defend sound science. Officials in Texas seem intent on elevating fundamentalist dogma over academic excellence and common sense.”

http://www.au.org/media/church-and-state/archives/2008/01/texas-educat
ion.html
Quote:

The Texas Freedom Network (TFN) on Tuesday revealed a side of “intelligent design” proponents rarely seen by the public at large. The group released a transcript and recording of an extraordinarily candid speech given in 2005 by recently named State Board of Education Chairman Ron McLeroy.

McLeroy told a gathering at Grace Bible Church in Bryan, Texas, of his efforts to expunge evolution from the state’s high school biology textbooks

Following a long spiel about biblical truth, McLeroy told the audience to ignore intelligent design’s religious foundation when talking to the general public. Not to worry though, the “time to address [Biblical issues] will be after we have separated materialistic prejudice from scientific fact.”

The second step, he said, is to point out that evolution wrongly depends on “naturalism;” that supernaturalism or divine influences are unfairly excluded from the conversation. Finally, forget the scientists and target people without a firm grasp on evolutionary theory.

McLeroy lamented the fact that he failed to convince fellow board members that “are good, strong Christians” to see it his way in 2003. Even though they were active in church, he said, they didn’t even care that evolution conflicted with their Christian worldview. He was sure he would have gotten a few more votes if he’d just mentioned evolution ignores God.

His effort to replace science with theology has implications not just for Texas, but for school children nationwide. Texas is a major market for textbook publishers because it has so many children in its public system. Therefore, the textbooks available to school districts around the country tend to reflect Texas school officials’ choices.

TFN’s press release noted that the 2006 school board elections shifted the balance of power, giving McLeroy and his allies a slim majority. The board is slated to revise science standards.

http://blog.au.org/2007/08/09/trouble-in-texas-school-board-chairman-s
eeks-religion-in-science-class
/
Quote:

The Texas Board of Education gave grudging support last week to teaching the mainstream theory of evolution without the most troubling encumbrances sought by religious and social conservatives. But the margins on crucial amendments were disturbingly close, typically a single vote on a 15-member board, and compromise language left ample room for the struggle to continue.
http://greenpagan.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/31/2621815-nyt-editorial-
evolutionary-semantics-texas-style
-

"Grudging"...does this not tell you something? These people are the ones responsible for not just the textbooks, but the CURRICULUM of what is taught in schools. You can nit pick all you want about the changes in textbooks, but there's a bigger picture at work here, and I think these articles (especially given they include direct quotes from educational officials) pretty much show a direction they want to pursue, in my opinion.

I don't mind Texas being nuts; I mind when it's got the power to influence ALL our children.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:02 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You want to know what Pakistan’s largest economic problem is ? The fact that they have 'alternative' education: madrassas funded by the government. These schools are not only capable of turning out religious fanatics, which they do disproportionately to other schools. They also fail to teach enough science and math to raise the overall education level and allow Pakistan to climb out of poverty. Gone are the days when Pakistan generated a large share of scientists and engineers. Instead you have impoverished young men whose education system led to their impoverishment, their frustration, and their religious fanatical solutions.

That's what you get when you choose to teach dogma over everything else.

With an example like that, one would hope that US school boards would take a lesson in what not to do.

If only that was true.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
..you've completely missed that *I* was the one who provided the link to the curriculum? You asked about it, but apparently couldn't find it, so I did, and posted it.


Thanks. Made it so much easier to prove your bias.

Come on, Mike. You got no complaints against the curriculum you posted that will hold up to objective analysis, or you'd give them. If you actually have some substantive arguments, Bring 'em on.
Quote:


By the way, thanks for sinking to the insult level to prove your point.


Sorry. Didn't mean to poach on your territory.



"Keep the Shiny side up"




Not sure I'd call it *MY* territory. After all, you've been here longer than I. Seems the partisan whining is YOUR stock in trade, and always has been.

S'wenyways...


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

Now, *OF COURSE* you're going to dismiss out of hand any source whose leanings you don't agree with (you're so very much like your doppelganger Rappy in that regard), but this is the direct quote from the leader of the Board's conservative faction:

Quote:

“We are adding balance,” said Dr. Don McLeroy, the leader of the conservative faction on the board, after the vote. “History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left.”


So in his own words, they're pushing a right-wing agenda and attempting to skew the curriculum to the right.

Kinda proves your whole argument wrong, doesn't it?




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I have to disagree on some of those points, Rue.
Quote:

Science and technology is a growing and flourishing field in Pakistan. Since its independence from Great Britain in 1947, the newly-found nation of Pakistan has seen a large influx of scientists, engineers, doctors, and technicians assuming an active role in Pakistan's fields of science and technology. Pakistan has been known internationally for some of its major achievements in science and technology such as its possession of strong weapons in the military, growing base of doctors and engineers, and also a fair amount of its new influx of software engineers, which is however as not as much as counterpart India.

Pakistan has achieved goals in Nuclear science, Space Science, Aerospace industries, biological industries, Communication technology and many other science. Pakistan is also the home country of many prominent scientists such as Dr. Abdus Salam who won a Nobel Prize in Physics.

Wikipedia.

Further:
Quote:

Contrary to popular belief that madrassas are schools for fundamentalist Islamic teaching, madrassas in West Bengal are attracting an increasing number of Hindu students with their shift in focus from Islamist education to science and technology.

"It's a misconception that our students only learn Islam-related subjects at madrassas. Time is changing and so are we. Now, we lay more stress on science and technology than religion."

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newsid=109627&newstype=local

I think SOME of what we believe about madrasses is indoctrination on the part of our own government:
Quote:

Pakistan's poor education system has increasingly become a matter of international concern. Lack of access to quality education, which in turn limits economic opportunity, makes young Pakistanis targets for extremist groups, some experts say. The World Bank says nearly half the adult population of Pakistan can't read, and net primary enrollment rates remain the lowest in South Asia. Experts say the system suffers from inadequate government investment, corruption, lack of institutional capacity, and a poor curriculum that often incites intolerance. In August 2009, chief counterterrorism adviser to the White House John Brennan, summing up a concern held by many U.S. terrorism experts, said extremist groups in Pakistan have exploited this weakness. "It is why they offer free education to impoverished Pakistani children, where they can recruit and indoctrinate the next generation," he said.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/20364/pakistans_education_system_and_li
nks_to_extremism.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+publication%2Fbackgrounder+(CFR.org+-+Publications+-+Backgrounders
)

Some of our views may be influenced by recent situation.
Quote:

Among Western countries post-9/11, the Madrasas are often perceived as a place of radical revivalism with a negative connotation of anti-Americanism and radical extremism, frequently associated in the Western press with Wahhabi attitudes toward non-Muslims. The word madrasah literally means "school" and does not imply a political or religious affiliation, radical or otherwise. They have a varied curriculum, and are not all religious. Madrasahs in India, for example, have a secularized identity.

The Yale Center for the Study of Globalization examined bias in United States newspaper coverage of Pakistan since the September 11, 2001 attacks, and found the term has come to contain a loaded political meaning. "When articles mentioned 'madrassas,' readers were led to infer that all schools so-named are anti-American, anti-Western, pro-terrorist centers having less to do with teaching basic literacy and more to do with political indoctrination."

Various American public figures have, in recent times, used the word in a negative context, including Newt Gingrich,[38] Donald Rumsfeld,[39] and Colin Powell.[40]. During Soviet occupation in Afghanistan many CIA official were found involved in breeding terrorist activities in some of the madrassa schools in northern Pakistan. Those who were involved were not yet handed over to the Pakistani government to present them to courts. It was several times accepted by USA government and admitted by several involved like Donal Remsfeld, Colon Powell, Senior Bush etc.

The New York Times published a correction for misusing the word "madrassa" in a way that assumed it meant a radical Islamic school. The correction stated, "An article... said Senator Barack Obama had attended an Islamic school or madrassa in Indonesia as a child referred imprecisely to madrassas. While some (madrassas) teach a radical version of Islam, most historically have not."

Wikipedia

I think it's a debatable question.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:05 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Kinda proves your whole argument wrong, doesn't it?



Not really. My argument was that folks should look at the actual curriculum and decide, rather than accept the opinions of partisans on either side.

In the draft version you provided, I didn't see anything overtly pushing a Conservative agenda, no one here but you suggested any, and your suggestions were shown to be pretty much all misquotes, misinterpretations, or misunderstandings.

Here's a newer version (January 2010), although I'm not sure it's the latest.

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/teks/social/HS_US_TEKS_amended.pdf

It actually answers some of your earlier complaints, by defining significance of various years:

"...explain the significance of the following years as turning points: 1898 (Spanish-American War), 1914-1918 (World War I), 1929 (the Great Depression begins), 1939-1945 (World War II),1957 (Sputnik launch ignites U.S.-Soviet space race), 1968-1969 (Martin Luther King Jr. assassination and U.S. lands on the moon) , 1991 (Cold War ends), 2001 (terrorist attacks on World Trade Center and the Pentagon) , and 2008 (election of first black president)..."

Also mentioned Kennedy:

"...describe U.S. responses to Soviet aggression after World War II, including the Truman Doctrine, the Marshall Plan, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the Berlin airlift, and John F. Kennedy’s role in the Cuban Missile Crisis..."

Am kinda disappointed they changed "Imperialism" back to "Expansionism".

They also have at least one misspelling:

"...analyze the impact of physical and human geographic factors on the Panama Canal, the Dust Bowl, the levy failure in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and the settlement of the Great Plains..."


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Like I said, aside from nit-picking the text of proposed textbooks, it's more important to look at the entire curriculum THEY WANT TAUGHT, which pretty much speaks for itself. If you think the reflection of what they want taught isn't slanted right, show us some examples, rather than defending the changes in textbooks.

Are you saying, by the way, that the massive amount of stuff on the internet saying the same thing about the potential problems caused by the mentality of the SCHOOL BOARD in Texas, and their having the power to change textbooks and curriculum, is slanted? Because it's not just the MSM, it's all over the internet, and I haven't yet found one thing in support.

I think that speaks to something...the push to teach "intelligent design" (let's just call it what it is--creationism) and get rid of evolution is pretty telling.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Niki

I specifically looked up many articles on madrassas before I posted. Not wanting my post to look like a thesis - where every phrase is backed by several cites - I left them off.

HOWEVER - while madrassas may be secular, in Pakistan they are generally religious. The exceptions, where they exist, are near three large cities. And while madrassas are not exclusively devoted to creating fantacism, a large and disproportionate number of fanatics have been taught in them. And while there may be a few imported or stellar scientists and engineers, the overall education rate in the country is very poor. Pakistan has only recently barely cleared the 50% literacy mark. This is not high enough to sustain a thriving modern economy.

I stand by what I posted, and the further conclusion that religious education which denies basic facts to students does not serve a country well.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:45 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:




analyze the effects of landmark U.S. Supreme Court decisions including ( SNIP...)(Tinker v. Des Moines( ((and Reynolds v. Sims))



Thought I was up on " landmark U.S. Supreme Court secisions." Never heard of those 2.Anybody?

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I do not disagree that literacy in Pakistan is a serious problem, nor that some madrassas are used to indoctrinate. My disgreement is the generalized statements, which I believe are misleading.

Back to Texas curriculum:
Quote:

The lawsuit claimed that the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, or NCBCPS, was approved by the board in December, 2005 and was to be implemented as an elective history course option in the 2006-2007 school year for two high schools within ECISD. The suit also claimed that the NCBCPS curriculum did not provide alternative scholarly interpretations of the Bible that are also within the Biblical spectrum to include Catholicism, Judaism, Orthodox Christianity and mainstream Protestantism.

A slang email comment made by the ECISD Director of Curriculum and Instruction upon approval of the Bible course was mentioned in the suit as part of the argument that the district was trying to use a religious agenda the public school system.

“YES, WE ARE USING NCBCPS :) :) :)! HA! Take that you dang heathens!”

According to the lawsuit, both the media and parents have been denied access to the contents of the course, further supporting claims that the course is using a hidden agenda that violates the Constitutionality of the contents being offered and taught to ECISD students.

Due to the private nature of the company, accurate accounts of the numbers of districts currently utilizing the NCBCPS as part of their elective programs could not be verified, but other lawsuits, and subsequent settlements, have taken place as a result of the contents of this curriculum, although further research needs to be accomplished.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/251169/Biased_Religious_Curricul
um_May_Get_the_Book_In_Texas_Town
final vote was a triumph of ideology and politics over science," says Dr. Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE). "The board majority chose to satisfy creationist constituents and ignore the expertise of highly qualified Texas scientists and scientists across the country." NCSE presented the board with a petition from 54 scientific and educational societies, urging the board to reject language that misrepresents or undermines the teaching of evolution, which the board likewise ignored.

For example, the revised biology standard (7B) reflects two discredited creationist ideas — that "sudden appearance" and "stasis" in the fossil record somehow disprove evolution. The new standard directs students to "analyze and evaluate the sufficiency of scientific explanations concerning any data of sudden appearance, stasis and the sequential nature of groups in the fossil records." Other new standards include language such as "is thought to" or "proposed transitional fossils" to make evolutionary concepts seem more tentative.

"Let's be clear about this," cautioned Scott. "This is a setback for science education in Texas, not a draw, not a victory. The revised wording opens the door to creationism in the classroom and in the textbooks. There's a reason creationists are claiming victory."

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/texas-school-decision-triumph-of-ideolo
gy-over-science
Quote:

- The Board removed Thomas Jefferson from the Texas curriculum, "replacing him with religious right icon John Calvin."

- The Board refused to require that "students learn that the Constitution prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others."

– To avoid exposing students to “transvestites, transsexuals and who knows what else,” the Board struck the curriculum’s reference to “sex and gender as social constructs.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-
jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks
/
Quote:

Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-app_n_4
97440.html


Yes, that last one is HuffPost, but I found it referenced in numerous places.

So. I take it you approve of these things? You think creationism should be taught in public schools? You think that Judeo-Christian values of our founding fathers should be taught, but not their concept of church and state? You think John Calvin should be taught, yet Thomas Jefferson OMITTED? And on and on.

I repeat; it's not just the textbooks, it's what they plan to teach in their entire curriculum. What they want to teach isn't just a correction to any left-leaning bias, it's way beyond that.

And I get the snark, "Not wanting my post to look like a thesis - where every phrase is backed by several cites", by the way. Yes, I try to find cites for my points which people can review on their own and thus decide their veracity. Sorry you don't like that. I could say something about some others' propensity for putting up opinions stated as fact, with no backup or cites, but I assume you prefer that?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:20 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"And I get the snark, "Not wanting my post to look like a thesis ..."

No snark intended. It was a statement of fact. I thought about including the links but decided against it in the interests of brevity and clarity.

While sometimes links are useful, when there are too many of them a la PN, they just induce people to scroll.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No comment on the points tho'?

(Won't see any comment until tomorrow; I HAVE to get off this damned computer!)


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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