Let's take the hypothetical out of this world! by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Let's take the hypothetical out of this world!

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, March 20, 2010 01:27
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5823
PAGE 2 of 2

Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:53 AM

Quote:
Is there any acceptable answer where I get to assassinate them both? I mean, the Prez is just as evil as his VP, since he CHOSE him as his VP, right?

I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:54 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If they pay you off and you live, you will be reviled wherever you go. You may even find that your money is not very good, as very few would be willing to deal with you.

Yeah, people with tens of billions of dollars have it so rough.

Lets face it, most people would be thankful and if there is negative fallout, it will fall on the leaders who made the decision and the aliens who forced us into the position, not me. Ultimately folks will understand the us or them mentality of saving the world. As for my money...a nice image consultant and suddenly being the world's biggest philanthropist would make it all good.

And if they choose to die...either your right and it does not matter or, as I believe, it all comes around.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:57 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I forgot - Republicans are known worldwide for their lack of a sense of humor. They simply cannot grok sarcasm.

Maybe, but at least we know what grok means...

As for my humor...I don't know about worldwide, but I've got my county pretty well covered.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:29 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Hell, I'd torture her just for wearing that outfit.

[/snark]

I'd torture you for snarking that.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:00 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Are you saying that Bush wasn't a neoCON following a neoCON agenda?

I'm saying that I encountered the "The Terrorist and His Daughter" scenario at a philosophy seminar. Nothing more and nothing less. I looked upon it as an exercise in philosophical and ethical thinking, since that what it was used for at the seminar. It seemed appropriate for this thread since Chris had opened with a similar scenario.

You're the one who has decided to go all neocon conspiracy on it. I got no arguments one way or the other. If you're bound to find something conspiratorial in posting that scenario, I can do nothing about that but leave you to expound your fantasies. Have fun.

Quote:

BTW, nice dodge after you were shown to be lying, yet again.

Huh?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:07 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Maybe you could post their curriculum!

http://residentassociates.org/ticketing/tickets/reserve.aspx?utm_sourc
e=VIARC&utm_medium=SIWeb&utm_campaign=Calendar&tmssource=181896&performanceNumber=219377

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"By withholding my own selfish interst and placing the decision in the hands of world leaders ..."

No, you have given them a DIFFERENT decision to make - into which you inserted yourself and your demand for money. If you were really placing the original decision into their hands you would simply transmit the message and have them decide.

"Lets face it, most people would be thankful and if there is negative fallout, it will fall on the leaders who made the decision and the aliens who forced us into the position, not me."

You really think so ? And you know this how, exactly ?

After all, YOU have molded this into a hostage situation where the entire world is hostage TO YOU. It comes down to pay me or die. I kinda' think a lot of people would be pretty riled by that. And you would make many, many enemies with long memories. Your smallest problem would be PR. Your largest one would be staying alive.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:12 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:55 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"BTW, this is the terrorist's daughter."

You're dealing with someone who's worked too long in hospitals to really give a shit.

“I ate a baby. Oh, aye, Baby: the other, other white meat. Baby: it's what's for dinner. “

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:47 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I owe nothing to the other world.

Or to others in our own Third World, I conjure. LEGALLY, at any rate.
Your funny is cool, but the serious undertones leave me very *meh*.

Freedom is never free. It'll cost just $24,000 this week only*.

*Donation of first born son not included in price.
Not to be combined with any other offer.
Subject to change without notice.
Taxable where mandated.
May require drug-testing in some states.
Failing a drug test may invoke the Patriot Happy Fun Ball clause.

The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

“I ate a baby. Oh, aye, Baby: the other, other white meat. Baby: it's what's for dinner. “

You did ? You're sick.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 3:05 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You're sick.

Kirkules often demonstrates anti-social tendencies. Nothing new here.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:49 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
So, uhhh, logic is replaced here by emotional familiarity.
So much for number crunching & the good of "the many."

The many what, cockroaches? My logic is based on emotion - I care about humans, I don't care about cockroaches, and so my calculation reflects this.

Quote:
KPO came out against the aggressors here, but for Israel in the real world...

I don't want the Israelis to completely supplant the Palestinians, but I wouldn't want to see the Israeli state uprooted either. I don't see the Jewish settling of Palestine as an 'agressors' military invasion, even though perhaps war between the two communities was inevitable. Two peoples want the same land, they have to share it. 2 states, it's the only solution.

Quote:
I could write a similar one where the crazy Conservative President was gonna invade Iraq and slaughter a bunch of folks, and the only way to stop him was to assassinate his VP, who was the real decider.

Haha, that's a good one.

Quote:
I don't believe in a no-win scenario.

To each his own.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Hell, I'd torture her just for wearing that outfit.

[/snark]

I'd torture you for snarking that.

I had to, lest Geezer or Rappy took it seriously. :)

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:09 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
After all, YOU have molded this into a hostage situation where the entire world is hostage TO YOU. It comes down to pay me or die.

Your example would also apply to doctors and many others with life saving services who seek money in exchange for those services.

In this scenario, I have a unique skill or service to offer, but not the right to use it on behalf of the whole world at the expense of another. Its a global decision, so for a modest fee I place myself at the service of world leaders who are in the best position to make the decision.

Also, you have a glass half empty mentality when looking at the nature of the scenario. Should I choose Earth to live, then I have not condemned or destroyed the other world, the aliens did that...my role is saving Earth. The scenario is about saving Earth. Nothing in my decision decides the fate of the other world, that is in evil alien hands.

Could I exercise the power at the behest of world leader without asking for payment? Yes. Is it morally wrong to seek payment in exchange for using the power? No. The whole purpose of the scenario is that this is a very difficult choice. In this case I have been chosen to take on a huge burdon, compensation is reasonable.

Is it the amount of money? Suppose I ask for $1 (which is a nominal amount that can be used in law as consideration for a contract)? Or would you prefer some sort of exercise of power or act as my condition (surrender Osama, stop hunting whales, stop global warming, Firefly put back on the air, Browns win the Super Bowl)?

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I also have a valuable service or commodity to sell and am free to make a contract to exchange my service for valuable consideration.

.... The monetary consideration is merely for the value of the service performed, something any professional would understand.

Ahhh, capitalism at its best. No concept of personal morality, just push the decision of onto someone else, and take the money for it.

What wonderful convoluted reasoning.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:08 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Your example would also apply to doctors and many others with life saving services who seek money in exchange for those services."

And they, along with insurance companies, are reviled as long as they hew to this standard. That is what you're aspiring to, except, of course, it would be billions of people all focusing their hatred on one person - YOU.

Hey, that would be cool if it ever could happen.

"The scenario is about saving Earth."

So you think. Keep on thinking that. It has entertainment value.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:49 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
My logic is based on emotion

So, when were you formally kicked off Vulcan?

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:52 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

Your example would also apply to doctors and many others with life saving services who seek money in exchange for those services.

Actually, no.

YOUR example would be analogous to a doctor or EMT coming upon someone in a life-threatening situation and refusing to offer any help unless and until they were paid in advance and the check had cleared.

Quote:

Could I exercise the power at the behest of world leader without asking for payment? Yes. Is it morally wrong to seek payment in exchange for using the power? No. The whole purpose of the scenario is that this is a very difficult choice. In this case I have been chosen to take on a huge burdon, compensation is reasonable.

Is it the amount of money? Suppose I ask for $1 (which is a nominal amount that can be used in law as consideration for a contract)? Or would you prefer some sort of exercise of power or act as my condition (surrender Osama, stop hunting whales, stop global warming, Firefly put back on the air, Browns win the Super Bowl)?

I note that in neither case do you just make the decision based on what's good for the world and its people. You DEMAND some form of payment, no matter what it is. Odd that you consider yourself a "christian", when it's plain for all to see that your only concern is "what's in it for me?"...

You'd make a lousy Christ. You'd be the one on the cross, asking Dad, "Why should I? What's in it for me? What have they ever done for ME?"

So while it's confusing that you try to pass yourself off as christian, there's no doubt at all why you're a Republican. It's all about the money and the power.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, March 19, 2010 8:26 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You'd make a lousy Christ. You'd be the one on the cross, asking Dad, "Why should I? What's in it for me? What have they ever done for ME?"

Christ new the outcome in advance...so was it really a sacrifice, or a demonstration of power?

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 8:44 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This is a lame one. Try The Terrorist and His Daughter.

You are the Mayor of Chicago. A terrorist has hidden a dirty atomic bomb somewhere in the loop and will detonate it in one half hour. No time to evacuate the city. Your advisors tell you that they have found, incontrovertably, that the only thing that will cause the terrorist to stop the bomb and surrender is to see his daughter suffering the pain of severe torture on TV. He doesn't care if she lives or dies, so driving her to the loop to be blown up won't stop him, but can't stand to see her suffer. He's also an expert at FX and CGI, etc. so will spot fakery. There are no other alternatives.

You can have one little girl tortured to save millions, or let millions die and keep your ethics intact.

BTW, this is the terrorist's daughter.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

I reject the scenario on the basis of it being a false dichotomy.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:51 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I reject the scenario on the basis of it being a false dichotomy.

As I noted above, this sort of scenario is a teaching tool for philosophy profs. A lot of it is simply unreasonable, but the profs insist that you accept it as given for the sake of the exercise; that there is no other way to get the terrorist to disarm the bomb and surrender, and that torturing the daughter will absolutely cause him to do so. He then forces the students what they'd do, challenges them to defend their decisions, and questions everything they say. Since the prof knows all the possible arguments, he can pretty much make the student look like a fool no matter the answer. This both makes the student think, and displays the Socratic method. Students who have been through this a few times understand why the city fathers of Athens made Socrates drink hemlock.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:10 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Students who have been through this a few times understand why the city fathers of Athens made Socrates drink hemlock.

Heh.

Then my answer is that I turn the terrorist into a fish. I'm a lateral thinker. If the Philosophy teacher doesn't like that answer, I'm going to assume (s)he is also a fish. It's the Ichthus method.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:33 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

As I noted above, this sort of scenario is a teaching tool for philosophy profs. A lot of it is simply unreasonable, but the profs insist that you accept it as given for the sake of the exercise

Bullsh*t.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:34 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
It's the Ichthus method.

Thanks for all the fish.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 5:27 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kpo:
My logic is based on emotion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, when were you formally kicked off Vulcan?

Delectable star trek humour aside, seriously, I think this is how rational decisions are made. The amygdala is the part of the brain that processes emotion and is key to decision making, and people with a damaged amygdala (like River) can be paralysed with indecision just in their daily lives. So as I understand it (hopefully not too far wrong - maye Rue could shed more light), key to our grasp of things like 'importance' and 'urgency' is being able to process emotions.

But I think applying logic is a way of perfecting the decision making process.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 1:27 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

Delectable star trek humour aside, seriously, I think this is how rational decisions are made. The amygdala is the part of the brain that processes emotion and is key to decision making, and people with a damaged amygdala (like River) can be paralysed with indecision just in their daily lives. So as I understand it (hopefully not too far wrong - maye Rue could shed more light), key to our grasp of things like 'importance' and 'urgency' is being able to process emotions.

But I think applying logic is a way of perfecting the decision making process.

Heads should roll

I think a very rough analogy would be state machines, where in the Brain's case the Emotions are the states. They are compulsions; my stance would be that emotions are what allow and compel us to make independent decisions, Logic and reason is a better way to arrive at those decisions than emotion. People without emotion would have no reason to make decisions, the same way a computer won't do a damned thing unless you switch it on and tell it to do something. However, if you're making a decision using emotion, then it's inherently illogical.

In this case I don't think there is an inherently logical answer to the question, the logical outcome depends on subjective starting positions. You can arrive at the solution "the human race should survive" through a logical progression, but since that is based on an emotional reaction (i.e. "I prefer Humans") it is inherently illogical.

Which is a point about Vulcans, they're the biggest liars in the Star Trek Universe. They claim to be logical, but the term is actually repressed, they have all the same level of emotional reactions as any other species, and they make decisions every bit as much based on those reactions.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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