US use of bio weapon ? by GinoBiffaroni

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:01 PM

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:09 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

So why would the Americans use bioweapons against remote villages instead of troop concentrations or industrial centers?

Assuming such weapons were used, it could'a just as well been these guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_biological_weapons_program

They captured much of the Japanese 721 stuff, and probably wouldn't have balked at sacrificing a few villages for propaganda value.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:22 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It would be interesting to see the report and to get copies of the campaign the Japanese carried out in N China. The article mentions insect, shellfish and feather bombs, designed to spread anthrax, typhoid, bubonic plague.

Of those, the only germ I know of that can be spread by insects is plague, and for that you need fleas. Shellfish can carry typhoid, but you have to eat it. What did the bombers hope would happen - that people would think that shellfish were raining down like manna from heaven and eat it ? And birds sometimes carry anthrax on their feathers, but at the time AFAIK it's safe culture and handling hadn't been worked out (and it is tricky to this day).

In addition the story mentions something that sounds a lot like Hanta virus, a hemorrhagic virus made infamous by its outbreak in the Four Corners area and high death rate of Indians --- but named for the Hantaan River in Korea, where the virus was first discovered by the western world. Strains of Hanta virus are endemic to Korea.

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ETA: "So why would the Americans use bioweapons against remote villages instead of troop concentrations or industrial centers?" A tactical consideration that had also occurred to me. And if they were trial runs, why do them in areas from which you could get no data ?

While I don't put it past the US to do this (after all, we did drop not one but TWO nuclear bombs), it seems implausible to me.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:32 PM

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:35 PM

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:02 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Gino

While I have no doubt that these things were studied, for various technical reasons I have doubts about the PARTICULAR claims made, which I outlined in my post.

Unless I see the particular technical reasons addressed, I will remain skeptical of those specific claims.

(There also are the tactical reasons of why bomb remote villages, and if they were test runs, how did the US hope to get information back out about their effectiveness ? After all, even Hussein needed help in figuring out if his CBW was working, and he practiced on villages in his own country.)

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:32 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

US troops were gassed by bioweapons made in USA during Iraq War #1 20 years ago, and ordered to NOT wear their chemsuits and ignore their biowar alarms:

www.beyondtreason.com

The VA "healthcare" system is designed to track and study the effects of human biowar and radiation experiments on US troops, without providing a cure, like the Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black soldiers and their families.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

CIA tested LSD and biological weapons in the New York City subway system
http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Discussion-Page.htm?EdNo=001&Info=06629
2&View=Hide

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Well, if Vietnam and Agent Orange are any indicator...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 2:13 PM

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 2:35 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If you could find it I would appreciate it.

I always like to read original reports.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:30 PM

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Friday, March 19, 2010 7:08 AM

Well, one thing I can point you to is the Church Commission reports, there's a couple bits under MKNAOMI, regarding Ft Detrick and bioweapon structure and delivery concepts which might shed some light on this - especially since as noted they did continue to create and possess bioweapons in spite of all exhortations to the contrary, as recent events proved out.

That was always the weakness of those investigations, that they depended on the promises of lying scum to "never do it again" as they giggled up their sleeve and went right on doing it.

But if you wanna know about the US use of biowarfare agents, Detrick is where to start digging.

-Frem

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:00 AM

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:09 AM

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Friday, March 19, 2010 12:25 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Gino, Frem

As I mentioned above, and feel I need to repeat again, I have NO DOUBT that the US conducted bioweapons research. That is an undisputed historical fact. Not only that, but many facilities are still active today as Class IV biohazard units. I have read too much on Ebola, smallpox, and other highly dangerous pathogens to have even a shred of doubt about that.

Not only that, I have no doubt that it is well within the US's capacity to use bioweapons. I have no illusions that the US is ‘too good’ for that.

What I have doubts about are the SPECIFIC claims made, mainly for technical reasons, but partly for tactical ones.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 1:07 PM

The only stuff they torched was the stuff that wasn't no good anymore anyways - they KEPT most of that stuff, and it's STILL up there at Detrick, as the Anthrax mailings made abundantly freakin clear.

Why take the word of folk who lied for fifty years, who have been proven even now, to have lied about the destruction of the weaponized anthrax, about the destruction of other bioweapons or elements thereof when you KNOW they're fulla shit ?

-F

ETA: As do I Siggy (EDIT2: Oops, Rue), but again, what's the harm in a third party investigation, then ?

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Friday, March 19, 2010 1:32 PM

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

For the love of any god you believe in I'M NOT TAKING ANYONE'S WORD FOR IT ! Not THEIRS FOR SURE - and not yours EITHER.

I made my objections VERY clear so please go back and READ THEM WITH COMPREHENSION - the SPECIFIC claims made simply don't hold up scientifically. It would be as if I told you to believe that a plug-in electric car HAD to be filled with gas at the gas station.

I think - I HOPE - you would want to see more of an explanation before you gave it serious consideration.

I'm certainly not trusting the US's claims and especially not b/c I'm presuming it is trustworthy, but neither am I trusting the NK and Chinese - b/c, and let me say this I HOPE for the last time - THE CLAIMS DON'T ADD UP.

Not only that, but eyewitness reports are especially dubious even if they are recent - and after so many decades they become stories of what people THINK, not what they remember.

Are we clear now ?

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:02 PM

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:39 PM

Jeepers, what has you so wired in a twist, Rue ?

All I said was that the whole "we burned all our bioweapons" was a base lie, something proven out by the anthrax mail incidents, and that our own credibility regarding bioweapons wasn't worth jack shit as it rests wholly on the unconfirmed statements of a collective of folk known to have flat out lied to their own people for well over fifty years.

I made no statement whatever to whether we might have actually done any of those things we're accused of, or whether such was even viable, I merely pointed out that our denials could not possibly be considered credible, and suggested that if we had not done these things, there's really no harm in allowing a third party investigation.

How that set you off I don't see cause I would have deferred to your greater scientific expertise to begin with since I follow through something like this, where my knowledge base is limited, from a behavioral and criminal investigation methodology.

Therefore I limited my comment to our denials lacking credibility, without regard to whether or not this did happen, or whether we did it, or even whether it was feasible or possible.

Why that encouraged you to bring out the flamethrower here completely escapes me - if they want a third party investigation and are willing to pay for it, so what of it ?

The only stumbling point I could see to it is if we have once again lied our asses off and are indeed, currently researching biowarfare shit we don't want them stumbling over - which when you consider the notion in respect to our dearth of credibility on the issue, may well be their whole intent behind this accusation and desire for investigation since they cannot very well set the UN inspectors on us as easily as we did unto Saddam Hussein.

Also, in regards to the could-not-possibly-work factor, which you know far more about than I do, lemme remind you these are the same general pack of dumbasses who build planes that cannot fly, and thought acoustic kitty was a good idea, so that it wouldn't in a million years have worked would by no means been any substantial rein on their behavior.

All that said, the credibility of the accusations is no better than that of our denials, so really a third party investigation is the ONLY way to get to the bottom of it, if anyone really wants to, if it's all not just political posturing, which it also could well be.

I rather hope that makes my position on this clear enough.

-Frem

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:39 PM

Friggin doubled post, argh.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 4:15 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The article opens with reports of

insects
shellfish
feathers

anthrax
typhoid
bubonic plague

How can these be mixed-and-matched so that they make sense ?

Insects can't spread anthrax or typhoid so they must be combined with plague, caused by the bacteria Yersinia pestis. But the only insects that spread plague are fleas. The insects pictured are not fleas. And fleas are not directly mentioned in any reports, and especially not combined with plague. That makes reports of the described insects spreading plague suspect, as well as the suggestion of plague being spread by insect vector bombs.

Shellfish can't spread anthrax or plague so they must be combined with typhoid, caused by the bacteria Vibrio cholerae, or confusingly by another bacterium Salmonella typhi. S typhi can only be spread by human to human transmission, there is no environmental reservoir. And V. cholera loses its infectivity after ~ 24 hours in environmental water. This puts doubt on the idea that shellfish were used to spread typhoid by contaminating the water supply, as well as the suggestion of typhoid being caused by shellfish bombs (unless of course people were eating the shellfish from the bombs).

Feathers can't spread typhoid or plague so they must be combined with anthrax, caused by the bacterium Bacillus anthracis. Of all the pairings this makes the most sense. But anthrax bacteria are deactivated by sunlight, and must be inhaled in fairly large doses to be fatal. In addition, anthrax spores have a tendency to clump, which makes them settle-out of the air quickly. That’s why they must be ‘weaponized’ with clay or other fine coating to keep them from sticking together. That process had not yet been developed at the time. This puts some doubt on the idea that anthrax-laced feathers were used to infect people, as well as the suggestion that feather bombs were dropped to spread anthrax.

The article further mentions fleas and flies. Fleas may have spread plague, but there is no mention of plague-type symptoms in first-person reports. Flies don’t spread anthrax, typhoid or plague.

Looking at symptoms, one grouping is “high fever and paralysis”. These are not symptoms of anthrax, typhoid or plague. Another grouping is
“bloody stool, fever and vomiting”. These are also not symptoms of anthrax, typhoid or plague.

The report mentions autopsies in which bubonic plague, cholera and anthrax were found. But there is no suggestion of how they were spread. And these diseases were either endemic to Korea or had been carried there by trade, making it possible that there were localized outbreaks of disease in the country.

Finally, some of the symptoms could have been caused either by mosquito-borne encephalitis or rodent-carried Hanta virus, both of which are endemic to N Korea.

There are too many impossible claims and too many alternate explanations. All those are reasons why I would like to see further facts before I conclude the US was involved in those SPECIFIC allegations.

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ETA: b/c this is an area with which I am familiar, I did this sifting and comparing quickly, so I hope my tedious linear rendition makes sense.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 4:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

THIS is what you posted: "Why take the word of folk who lied for fifty years ...?"

I have posted over and OVER and OVER ... and now, once more ... that my objections have ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING ! to do with believing 'them'.

Can you get THAT through your head ? Have I made it ABUNDANTLY clear ?

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Friday, March 19, 2010 4:58 PM

I detect a whiff of personal issue having nothing to do with this topic goin on here.

I am well aware your objection rests on that it's not possible to have happened that way, and I defer to your knowledge of the field, and that the credibility of the accusations was as laughable as our denials, but you seem to be too busy screaming at me to hear what I am saying.

Which strikes me as something else goin on here.

And while I did note that our bag of crazies can and do try stuff that really, obviously won't work - my OPINION, which I haven't ventured what so ever till this point, is that we prolly didn't do it and there are other motivations at work here on both sides.

And I don't see what bearing any of that has on the notion of a third party investigation.

So either you're pissed about something else, or you know somethin we don't about our involvement, and the latter speculation having less veracity than PN's ramblings, I gotta go with what it seems like to me.

Although you're a fine one to make any complaint whatever about not listening to what someone else is sayin, given how often you've done it to me, even here.

So save your nastiness for somewhere you might get away with justifyin it.

-F

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Friday, March 19, 2010 5:05 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I am deeply insulted by the implication that my objections rest on a belief in the purity of the US, rather than a large knowledge-base. That is the implication of this "Why take the word of folk who lied for fifty years ...?" which you clearly posted. That is EXACTLY what is going on, and what I have objected to repeatedly and what you repeatedly ignored.

(ETA: Anyone who has taken microbiology/ bacteriology courses knows what I have posted.)

And while I am fairly certain I am right in these specific instances, I am also extremely curious as to what the report found - written I presume by doctors and scientists shortly after the fact. I don't give the US a pass on any other scheme they may have carried out, and if by some miracle they did pull off one or more of these specific things, I would be happy enough to admit I was wrong and to learn what I didn't know before.

THAT is why I would like to be able to get a copy of the report.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 7:52 PM

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Friday, March 19, 2010 9:51 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Gino

You cannot inhale anthrax from feathers with any efficiency. If you look at the specific conditions of the British experiment - dispersed with an explosive as a high concentration of dry powder on sheep tethered nearby; and its intended use - as a dry powder bomb on highly populated areas; you'll see that the conditions of trying to infect AND KILL rural people by spreading anthrax on feathers to a rural population who might or might not be nearby at the time - is just stupid. Really, really stupid. And while people might possibly get anthrax over time from their infected animals from the contaminated soil, most cases (95%) of anthrax are cutaneous with an untreated death rate of only 20%. As a bioweapon under those conditions it doesn't cut it.

As for the use of fleas when it comes to plague, it is possible that it happened. But the SPECIFIC claims made were that some weird bug NOT a flea was used to spread some deadly disease. If claims are that some bug was used to spread plague it had to be fleas. And if it wasn't a flea it didn't happen.

Now when it comes to Tularemia even today there is no known environmental reservoir except infected rabbits and other infected and very specific animals. In other words, you can't contaminate the environment in the hopes that somehow it'll be catchy. And I didn't read any report of rabbit bombs being dropped on N Korea - did you ?

And let me remind you AGAIN as I reminded Frem that my doubts were about the SPECIFIC claims made in THAT article. Do you get that ? Or do I have to post it a full dozen times before you actually understand my words ?

I allowed that there could have been OTHER diseases which were used. But the stories AS REPORTED MAKE NO SENSE. There is no mention of mosquitoes. There is no mention of encephalitis on autopsy. There is no mention of yellow fever on autopsy. None of the plausible elements are there in any of the claims made.

Would the US have done it ? Yes, the US certainly had the will. COULD the US have done it ? NOT AS CLAIMED.

BTW - I have very little faith in an investigation revealing anything useful at this point. Eyewitness reports are unreliable after so many decades and there would be no physical evidence left.

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 1:07 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Insects can't spread anthrax

Flies have been known to spread Anthrax from infected animals. Inhalation isn't the only contamination vector for Anthrax.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 8:31 AM

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I allowed that there could have been OTHER diseases which were used. But the stories AS REPORTED MAKE NO SENSE. There is no mention of mosquitoes. There is no mention of encephalitis on autopsy. There is no mention of yellow fever on autopsy. None of the plausible elements are there in any of the claims made.

Would the US have done it ? Yes, the US certainly had the will. COULD the US have done it ? NOT AS CLAIMED.

On that, I do agree, I've done a little outside digging on this, regarding other motivations...

Quote:
BTW - I have very little faith in an investigation revealing anything useful at this point. Eyewitness reports are unreliable after so many decades and there would be no physical evidence left.

Ayep, and that's what convinces me this isn't what it's about.

Thing is, the allegations are complete bullshit, and this whole push has NOTHING to do with something that happened fifty years ago, nu-uh.

What this is *about* is the suspicion of these folks that the USA has an active, current biowarfare R&D program going on that the fruits thereof may be used against them - which from their perspective, given our sabre rattling and lack of troops to back it with since we're mired up to our ass in desert sand, is a viable concern.

So, under the flimsy guise of these allegations they push for a third party inspection, NOT to discover what happened fifty years ago, but in hopes the investigators will trip over a current program, and they can bring political pressure to stop it, especially given we agreed to not do that kinda thing.

THAT, is what this is all about, and our resistance and stonewalling of the idea doesn't mean anything, but given past conduct and the history involved....

I'd say their probably right, we likely DO have some blackops bullshit of that type going on, but more than likely as a shoveljob to funnel money into (given that you can't exactly audit a blackop) than with intention of producing anything viable - which IMHO, is prolly a good thing given that the incompetent fumblers of the alphabet agencies would likely cause a total freakin disaster.

Ergo, this isn't science, it's politics.

-Frem

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 3:52 PM

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 4:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hell, the bomb fragments they showed certainly look like the description of the bomb link I posted as well...

From your link:
"The weapon was a modified M16A1 cluster bomb, which was normally used to distribute airborne leaflet propaganda or fragmentation weapons."

Hmm. I wonder if the U.S. dropped leaflets in North Korea?

Leaflets
http://faculty.kirkwood.edu/ryost/koreanleaflets.html
M16A1 being loaded with leaflets:
http://www.psywar.org/photos.php?pos=20&search=%25

Seems reasonable there would be M16A1 fragments to be found.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:56 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Flies have been known to spread Anthrax from infected animals. Inhalation isn't the only contamination vector for Anthrax."

As have mosquitoes - but only under extremely favorable conditions. And that is that the infected animals were alive at the time, and had anthrax in their bloodstreams. And the longest time that anthrax is recorded to remain infective in the insects at room temperature is 4 hours.

Since there is no record of live, infected animals being dropped onto N Korea, and since the time between the bombs being prepared with infected insects and the time they are dropped is > 4 hours, I don't see anthrax being spread this way.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:12 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Rue, you are getting snippy and insulting"

And you are being stupid. It seems some people - YOU - can't take YES for an answer.

I have been and am perfectly willing to believe the US was interested in and capable of doing SOMEthing along those lines. I have maintained that position from my first post.

What I have objected to - something which I have been VERY clear about from the start - is the SPECIFICS of the claims in the article. Those don't add up.

"Instead of discussing the science you have made this conversation rather unpleasant..."

I have discussed the science AT LENGTH. I have discussed the SPECIFICS in any reasonable combination I could come up with. I have addressed your posts AT LENGTH. I'm sorry you are upset that it doesn't back up what you want to believe.

And BTW, IF I thought that an investigation now would resolve this I would be all for it. But at this point, without hard evidence at hand, all that will happen is a course of contradictory and/ or not credible statements long after the fact that will only confuse the issue.

The best course would be for people to go back and re-examine the old studies done by people who did have access to first-hand evidence.

As for your example: The reason why the island had to be decontaminated was b/c in its natural life-cycle anthrax will sporulate in the ground. It is then picked up generally by grazing animals either systemically (GI anthrax) or in their fur. * From there it may be transmitted to humans, usually as cutaneous anthrax (95% of anthrax cases, 20% untreated mortality). This is not a first-strike highly-mortality rate scenario of pulmonary anthrax caused by anthrax bombs.

Once the island was contaminated with spores it had to be decontaminated in the same way a chemically contaminated area has to be cleaned. B/c while it may not be heavily lethal, it is not perfectly safe either.

* There is one exception in Namibia I think it is. There elephants will take luxurious dust baths and give themselves a nice case of pulmonary anthrax. They are usually dead within a few hours. Since they will often remain in place, after they die as they decompose the anthrax in their systems will sporulate in the ground, building up the levels of anthrax to even higher levels, causing the dust to become even more deadly to the next elephant.

It's an interesting positive feedback cycle and an interaction with a specific behavior as well.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:20 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

Interesting. I will keep it in mind.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:50 AM