REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Kucinich sells out

POSTED BY: SERGEANTX
UPDATED: Sunday, March 28, 2010 08:20
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Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I DID say campaign reform was a START, not the whole solution, I think, didn't I?
Quote:

When it comes time for that 51-vote-to-pass reconcillilation in the Senate is where the Republicans will throw up endless procedural and amendment hurdles to delay the thing.
Yeah, that's why I figure the 'Deem and Pass' thing; I'd heard what you wrote a while ago. I say more power to 'em.

Again; I put up the details of the bill as and when it would be implemented, and I'm still mystified as to why it's such a horror. I know I didn't give the whole picture, but I'm sorry, I'm convinced the reason the polls are against it is because it hasn't been made clear to people what's actually IN it, and has instead been lied about and had misinformation spread every which way. As we've discussed, Americans on the whole are happier to believe what they want to and what's fed to them than look into things and decide for themselves.

So tell me what's so horrible about this bill--aside from the individual mandate and the lack of a public option. If you know any more than I have found out, please add it to my thread, but if not, please; WHY is it so horrible??


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:31 AM

BYTEMITE


I suppose you did... Still seems like Campaign reform is impossible without a whole lot of other steps before it. I mean, you'd actually have to find trustworthy, uncorruptable people to put in office. Looking in any of the existing parties is dangerous, so you'd have to grassroots an entire new party, if not a new party AND it's opposition. You'd have to change how candidate selection works in a party on all levels. And you have to safeguard that party against future corruption.

I dunno if it's even worth it to try to introduce new parties for a parliamentary system or as alternatives into the mix. Just seems like building onto an unstable jenga tower doesn't make it less likely to fall.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Its quite simple.....Most Americans do not trust Washington to do anything right; most Americans do not want any Govt expansion into their personal lives beyond the entitlements we already have and pay for now, and most Americans are sickened to death by what they've seen Reid & Pelosi do to keep Obama's obsession clinging to life. Most Americans do not want a Govt nanny-state. We have always had a spirit of independence, and we value our freedom to attain personal acheivement without Govt interference. Americans would support a different bill that addresses real reform, but no one ever asked for what this Bill is.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Its quite simple.....Most Americans do not trust Washington to do anything right; most Americans do not want any Govt expansion into their personal lives beyond the entitlements we already have and pay for now, and most Americans are sickened to death by what they've seen Reid & Pelosi do to keep Obama's obsession clinging to life. Most Americans do not want a Govt nanny-state. We have always had a spirit of independence, and we value our freedom to attain personal acheivement without Govt interference. Americans would support a different bill that addresses real reform, but no one ever asked for what this Bill is.




I don't think the word "most" means what you think it means. You keep saying "most" when you really mean "some".

Do you REALLY believe "most" Americans value "the freedom to attain personal achievement" in the form of paying health insurance premiums that have risen over 155% since 2000, when wages and standards of living have stagnated and even fallen during that same time period?

By the way, my own healthcare insurance premiums just went up 37.5%, despite the fact that I haven't had a claim, haven't been sick, haven't had any treatment of any kind. In fact, the only two things that have changed from last year are that I'm one year older (47) and I quit smoking. So what "personal achievement" did I attain that made me 37.5% riskier this year than last year (when I was deemed 33.4% riskier than the year before, when I was 28.9% riskier than the year before that!)? Was my "personal achievement" just the fact that I was deemed a big enough sucker to keep paying into a system that I'm convinced has no intention at all of ever helping me in any way?

And isn't that pretty much the definition of organized crime?

By the way, for being a healthy non-smoking male, my premiums now total over $8000 per year for health insurance, with a $2500 deductible. So for the low, low price of over $10,000 per year, I get insurance that will drop me the very second I try to use it. Of that I have little doubt.

What a personal achievement that feels like...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:15 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

'Course, it would be a lot harder for me to do that if you ever actually LEARNED and started using language correctly.

See is you can figure out where you went so horribly wrong in your above response. Hint: Try reading each of your "bullet points" as a follow on to your first sentence fragment: "It only shows that how petty you are." "It only shows that that you have no substantive..."

Really, you DO make it amazingly easy. And for someone who loves to drone on about how great and smart and right he is, and revels in calling everyone else a bunch of retards, you REALLY have a hard time with the English language. I wonder whose intellectual growth is really "retarded" here. Wait - no I don't; I *know* it's yours.




Thank for reinforcing my previous point. All you have is pettiness and irrelevancy. Take away that, and you'd have nothing to post at all.

Naw, I take that back. You'd dream up some other irrelevant, non issue about which you'd whine and bitch. Just goes to show how shallow and empty your views are on such matters.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:29 PM

BYTEMITE


That picture is troubling on many levels. What are the Nazis all looking at? An execution? Two girls making out? It could be ANYTHING.

I hate my brain. It thinks up this crap. Traitorous cell mass.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


PN

Now, normally I just scroll past your posts b/c life is too short to weed through your BS. And I see Niki did address your post. But I just have to comment on this "loosy Kuci says he knows Obamascam is BS, but he has to take it up the ass for the Demorat Partyhardiers and the illegal alien in the White Whorehouse."

I hope you realize this makes zero sense. Given that the democratic party appartus actually supported his opponent in the last primary, do you REALLY think Kucinich cares about its health ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Pelosi will use the "Slaughter" technique, even though she and Slaughter fought against it in 2005...



I have four questions for you.

Yeah?

And?

So?

What?


Using a procedural technique that you've opposed when it was used against you is nothing new. You may have heard of the filibuster, or the idea of doing away with it? Hell, you may have even heard of "deem and pass", since it's been used so often by the Republicans. You may even have heard of reconciliation before, like when it was used to pass dozens of Bush bills, including the completely unfunded, unpaid-for, trillion-dollar plus Medicare Part D program, the trillion-dollar tax cut for the ultra-wealthy, and other programs that more than tripled our debt.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... create a change without destroying the economic wellbeing of the people who depend on those corporations."

I would just like to point out you have this backwards. The corporations depend on people, not the other way around. People have evolved and survived just fine without the presence of corporations.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Again, so long as you play their game, by their loaded rules (which they break the minute those rules get in THEIR way), with their marked deck, at their table - and don't even have the nerve to cheat, what the hell can you possibly expect ?

Fuck that, go sidewinder, come at em in ways that blindside them, attack the weak spots, use treachery and psychological exploitation - damn sure they use em often enough on us!

Oh, and BTW, if you're gonna mock Kooky for being short, you *might* recall the bastard's an inch taller than me, and this overgrown oompa-loompa could still kick yer ass even if I *did* have to bring a milk crate to stand on to do it!
(old joke that, and none-ya-bizness)

-F




Well, yeah, if we're measuring peoples' worth by height, I'll bet there ain't a one of ya can measure up to me. Does that make me king of this dump or somethin'?

Isn't Obama taller than Bush? Guess that's all the proof we need that he's the better Prez!

:)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

'Course, it would be a lot harder for me to do that if you ever actually LEARNED and started using language correctly.

See is you can figure out where you went so horribly wrong in your above response. Hint: Try reading each of your "bullet points" as a follow on to your first sentence fragment: "It only shows that how petty you are." "It only shows that that you have no substantive..."

Really, you DO make it amazingly easy. And for someone who loves to drone on about how great and smart and right he is, and revels in calling everyone else a bunch of retards, you REALLY have a hard time with the English language. I wonder whose intellectual growth is really "retarded" here. Wait - no I don't; I *know* it's yours.




Thank for reinforcing my previous point. All you have is pettiness and irrelevancy. Take away that, and you'd have nothing to post at all.

Naw, I take that back. You'd dream up some other irrelevant, non issue about which you'd whine and bitch. Just goes to show how shallow and empty your views are on such matters.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."




I'm sure you haven't been able to follow it, but there actually HAS been substantive debate about issues going on in your absence. There seems to be a pattern of that - you leave, things improve. And now you're back with - as always - nothing of substance to offer, no ideas, no real thoughts, just the usual pettiness you accuse others of. Nice attempt at a threadjack, but nobody's paying attention to you, because you're beneath us.

And who was it that was saying elsewhere that it bugged him that the President is black? Talk about having nothing of substance or relevance to bitch and whine about - all you've got left to cling to is your racism!




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:46 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Jong

While some Americans oppose this bill, a number of those oppose it on the grounds that it doesn't go FAR enough. I don't think you're basing your post on reality.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Byte:

"What are the Nazis all looking at?"

Well, this isn’t the first time that picture has been used. Somewhere in the past I remember quite a discussion about it. I think we settled on the idea that they were taking a crap in a multi-hole privy, and they even had their reading material with them !

As to your traitorous mass of cells, I suffer the same thing. It's like this little program going on in the background that I call my 'mini-Tourette’s-me'.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

People have evolved and survived just fine without the presence of corporations.


Well, of course. What I meant was I'm not sure you can just suddenly get rid of our current economic system without hurting people who work for an income. I think you have to ease out of a corporate system into a cooperative system.

Income doesn't represent anything to me, but it represents something to other people. Talk about removing money right away and they'll panic about how things are supposed to work, how do they get the stuff they want and need?

You want to prevent panic whenever you're creating a power vacuum, or you undo all of the work you've done dismantling the power structure.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Ah. That does explain a lot. I like your theory and accept your interpretation, because this means the Nazis are all going through their pants. It's a satisfying, if really gross mental image.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:09 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Too slow, Byte, too slow.

Gotta attack the effing system's head.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Byte

So what you are wanting is not to maintain corporations, but to avoid disruption.

I don't think that's going to happen even in the most carefully laid-out plan. Also, FWIW, I think if we just keep going the way we are, the system will implode anyway.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:15 PM

BYTEMITE


I did say that we need to get rid of the executives first? That's the only way to move from a corporate system to a cooperative.

But at least for some time, you may have to keep around the concept of money while people get used to the whole thing. Then when people begin to start thinking in terms of the things they produce having value, not the money, THEN money can become obsolete. This may happen naturally along with the change over to realizing that people only need to make what is needed and wanted. With the tech we have, there's no need for waste, people should make everything to order.

Barter may have no real standard to measure against, but it always is stable, and plus, when people are more focused on what they produce versus non-meaningful things like money, satisfaction with being part of the production process improves.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Too slow, Byte, too slow.

Gotta attack the effing system's head.




Gotta agree with Signy. Incrementalism hasn't been such a good thing. Look how far it's gotten us towards universal healthcare in only the last 100 years. Nowhere, that's where!

Radical change requires radical action. Sorry to say. And I don't think it will ever happen.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

So what you are wanting is not to maintain corporations, but to avoid disruption.


Right, exactly. We need a change, but I don't think it's ethical to pursue that change if it could hurt people. So if we want to implement the change, we should try to think up a way that causes negligible damage, that way people don't dislike the new system out of spite and want to go back.

Quote:

I don't think that's going to happen even in the most carefully laid-out plan.


Yeah, probably, but limiting damage is worth a shot I think. That's why SOMETIMES I grudgingly try to participate in the existing system despite the misgivings I posted above, but it always burns me. ._.

Quote:

Also, FWIW, I think if we just keep going the way we are, the system will implode anyway.


Absolutely. That's the scenario I've built my Plan C around. It's not the optimal scenario, though.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Byte

So what you are wanting is not to maintain corporations, but to avoid disruption.

I don't think that's going to happen even in the most carefully laid-out plan. Also, FWIW, I think if we just keep going the way we are, the system will implode anyway.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




YESSSSS!!!

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! It absolutely WILL collapse.

Are people going to get hurt? Absolutely. But that's going to happen regardless.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

So what you are wanting is not to maintain corporations, but to avoid disruption.


Right, exactly. We need a change, but I don't think it's ethical to pursue that change if it could hurt people. So if we want to implement the change, we should try to think up a way that causes negligible damage, that way people don't dislike the new system out of spite and want to go back.

Quote:

I don't think that's going to happen even in the most carefully laid-out plan.


Yeah, probably, but limiting damage is worth a shot I think. That's why SOMETIMES I grudgingly try to participate in the existing system despite the misgivings I posted above, but it always burns me. ._.

Quote:

Also, FWIW, I think if we just keep going the way we are, the system will implode anyway.


Absolutely. That's the scenario I've built my Plan C around. It's not the optimal scenario, though.



Good to see you're planning for it. It never is optimal. Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And who was it that was saying elsewhere that it bugged him that the President is black? Talk about having nothing of substance or relevance to bitch and whine about - all you've got left to cling to is your racism!



A clear sign you're deluded or flat out dirt stupid.

I never said or suggested any such thing.

Now you're just making shit up, as I'd expected you would.

I "leave and come back" because, clearly, I have some sort of life. If you don't, then that's a YOU problem, not so much mine.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And who was it that was saying elsewhere that it bugged him that the President is black? Talk about having nothing of substance or relevance to bitch and whine about - all you've got left to cling to is your racism!



A clear sign you're deluded or flat out dirt stupid.

I never said or suggested any such thing.

Now you're just making shit up, as I'd expected you would.




As Frem would say,

"Aaaaaannnnnnd - SNAP goes the trap!"


Do you deny posting this?

Quote:



Posted by AuRaptor on mbd.scout.com forums:


I noticed this a while ago about Obama, where he'll come out and say something to the effect that ... " Critics will tell you that my plan is going to ... ', or that " My opponents will say that .... "  Yes, they WILL tell you that, and there's  a reason....because that's exactly how they see it, and more times than not, youi're critics are correct! It's a tactic of stating the obvious, so much so, that it plays upon a shock value to deliver some sort of message. Like - " Hey... I know what you're saying about, and I'm here to show you how bold I am by putting it right back in your face. " Only with Obama, he can't  stop doing it! 

He did his little stunt again recently, where he commented during the SOTU address, where he said 95% of Americans got a tax cut. Fact was, 95% of Americans didn't get any tax cut, and there was some obvious head turning and open chuckling about that remark from Congress. 

He gave a one time tax CREDIT, with no reduction in tax rates, for  much of the population. Technically speaking, many paid a tiny fraction less in taxes, but that $$ was made up for sticking it to the rich, and on the backs of our children, as part of the Stimulus boondoggle. 

But to the point, Obama blurts out a strongly held belief or a fact, as if some how putting it out there in any way  lessens or debunks the fact.

It doesn't, but it sure is a nifty way of trying to control the talking points.

I noticed this sort of parlaying when shopping for a car once. I told the "sales manager " that I was just looking around, seeing what is available. He scoffed at me,and  in a very matter of fact, cocky  tone said ... 

" You've heard somewhere that if you don't accept the first offer, and to not buy on your first visit, that you'll get a better deal later on, is that right ? "

His ploy was to "stun" me into thinking... .wow, he knows my hand....I go no shot at dealing w/ this master mind.....what ever shall I do ?

I replied..." Yeah, that's EXACTLY what is going to happen. I'm not buying today, but thanks for your time", smiled, and  walked out.

I get annoyed when sales weasels do that sort of ..."stuff ".   I sort of expect it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.


When my President does that..... it really pi$$es me off.  Another reason to loathe this glorified communitiy organizer. 


That, and of course, because he's  black.






Source: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=6&f=2777&t=5627124



Do you now deny that this is you? Same quotes, same signature photo, same spelling of the same name.

Are these not your words?

What's that all over your face? Egg? Or are you just trying to wipe the "flat out dirt stupid" look off your mug?






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Weird how Auraptor feels he can be honest in that forum but not here.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Weird how Auraptor feels he can be honest in that forum but not here.





Weird how quickly he vanished from here, though, huh?






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:46 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
YESSSSS!!!

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! It absolutely WILL collapse.

Are people going to get hurt? Absolutely. But that's going to happen regardless.



That's exactly why I'm so furious about the Obama bill. It does zero to provide for people in need and merely forestalls the collapse of a rotten system by forcing us all into its maw.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


You say "forestalls" and I say "hastens"... tomato, to-mah-to... :)






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:57 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You say "forestalls" and I say "hastens"... tomato, to-mah-to... :)



Those words are opposites. This bill does damage to real people and enriches the stockholders of the insurance industry while they plan their exit strategy. WE are the sacrificial lambs.

Obama is serving us up to them on a platter and if this passes I intend to do everything I can think of to fuck up their plans and undermine the system.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


kwickie

You're flat out dirt stupid.

Sarcasm not reached your neck of the woods yet?

After that lengthy post, full of explanation, examples and crystal clear detailing of why this President, MY President, is such a disappointment.... you STILL don't get it.

Alas,( SNAP! goes the trap- again! ) as expected, all YOU see is...

Obama's black, so the white guy doesn't like him.


Amazing. The same trap caught you two times.

Dunno whether I should laugh at you or show pity.

Meh..... I'll laugh.





Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by AuRaptor:


kwickie

You're flat out dirt stupid.

Sarcasm not reached your neck of the woods yet?

After that lengthy post, full of explanation, examples and crystal clear detailing of why this President, MY President, is such a disapointment.... you STILL don't get it.

Alas,( SNAP! goes the trap- again! ) as expected, all YOU see is...

Obama's black, so the white guy doesn't like him.


Amazing. The same trap caught you two times.

Dunno whether I should laugh at you or show pity.

Meh..... I'll laugh.




Keep trying to sell that swill, Rappy. Keep on telling us how much you don't like black people.

And then try to call it sarcasm, and claim you didn't really mean it. Your true self comes through, every single time.

Meanwhile, you got caught lying. You flat-out SAID that I was "making shit up" and that you NEVER said what you quite clearly DID say. So, as usual, you are lying. To call you dirt stupid would be an insult to dirt.

Here are your exact words, from your post:

Quote:

A clear sign you're deluded or flat out dirt stupid.

I never said or suggested any such thing.

Now you're just making shit up, as I'd expected you would.



So now you're saying you DID say any such thing? Only you didn't really mean it? So are you deluded, or flat-out dirt stupid? Or are you just making shit up?


Oh, and you misspelled "disappointment". ;) Keep trying - maybe someday you won't look *quite* as stupid as you do right now.

But I doubt it.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You're lying when you say I lied.

I never did say I was bummed or that it bugged me that we elected a black person.

So you lied. Again.

Seems you're never going to learn.

You might as well die now.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You say "forestalls" and I say "hastens"... tomato, to-mah-to... :)



Those words are opposites.



:facepalm:

I realize that. That's what you call "being ironical". ;)

Quote:


This bill does damage to real people and enriches the stockholders of the insurance industry while they plan their exit strategy. WE are the sacrificial lambs.

Obama is serving us up to them on a platter and if this passes I intend to do everything I can think of to fuck up their plans and undermine the system.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"



I've come to the conclusion that the only way TO hasten the collapse of our corrupt system IS to cause damage to real people AND enrich the fatcats until the public reaches the breaking point, storms the Bastille, and rolls out the guillotine again. You say this measure will forestall that, and I say it will hasten its occurrence.

The ONLY way you're seriously going to get people pissed off enough to actually fucking DO SOMETHING to change the system is if you actually put their skin in the game. People won't change the system until it fucks them good and proper, and fatcats won't change until their colleagues start swinging from light standards.

Reagan would call me a conservative. After all, it was he who said, "If it's going to take a blood-bath, let's get on with it."




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You're lying when you say I lied.

I never did say I was bummed that we elected a black person.

So you lied.

Seems you're never going to learn.

You might as well die now.




You said you were PISSED because he's black.

I never said you were "bummed"; you're making THAT up. I said it bugged you. You said it pisses you off. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one. But keep back-pedaling and changing your excuses. Oh, and keep editing your posts; I'm on a Mac - a screenshot is just a command-shift-3 away! :)

And I know you wish I would just die so your life would be easier, but I simply can't oblige you.

I think maybe I should make the screenshot of your post part of my signature, so everyone on the site can see you for the racist you truly are...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


You said you were PISSED because he's black.



No, I didn't. You're a moron. What other color SHOULD he be ? Read it again, brainless.

Quote:



I never said you were "bummed"; you're making THAT up. I said it bugged you.

Bugged, bummed, doesn't matter, you're still lying about what I said, and you're still mis representing my remark. Likely because you're just too stupid to GET it.

Quote:

You said it pisses you off. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one. But keep back-pedaling and changing your excuses. Oh, and keep editing your posts; I'm on a Mac - a screenshot is just a command-shift-3 away! :)


I don't care what you're on, you just go ahead and point out any typing errors you feel you need to. It quite literally is all you have. Doesn't make your case, not in the least.

And you're too fucking stupid to even understand the concept of 'back peddling'. I'm not back peddling! I never denied what I said, never denied it was anyone else who said it ( like you pretending to be me ,for example ) I'm owning up to it, totally and completely, as it was originally posted. I said it PISSED ME OFF WHEN MY PRESIDENT DOES THAT...but you only see what your idiot mind will allow you to see.


Quote:


And I know you wish I would just die so your life would be easier, but I simply can't oblige you.

I'm resigned to accept that there are stupid people in the world. Your existence affects me not even a little. But my POINT ( since again, you show you're too stupid to comprehend ) is that since you won't evolve, grow or show the least bit of ability to enlighten yourself, you're essentially useless. So you might as well go ahead and die.

Quote:

I think maybe I should make the screenshot of your post part of my signature, so everyone on the site can see you for the racist you truly are...


Yeah, you do that. And make sure you use the WHOLE quote, so everyone can see what a pathetic moron YOU are.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


And you're too fucking stupid to even understand the concept of 'back peddling'. I'm not back peddling! I never denied what I said, never denied it was anyone else who said it ( like you pretending to be me ,for example ) I'm owning up to it, totally and completely, as it was originally posted.




HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!


OF FUCKING COURSE YOU DENIED WHAT YOU SAID. You flat-out said that I made it up, that you never said it, when quite clearly you did. In fact, you said you LOATHE him because of it. Strong words to apply to someone just because they're black.

Quote:


When my President does that..... it really pi$$es me off.  Another reason to loathe this glorified communitiy organizer. 

That, and of course, because he's  black.



So now you're so desperate that you're even denying that you denied it! That's rich.

And if I'm so useless to you, so far beneath you, why have you spent so much time dealing with things you said you never said, and then trying to defend WHY you said them? You've got yourself twisted into knots, PretzelRaptor!

As for me pretending to be you? Yeah, that's plausible. I set up that AuRaptor account in 2002, three years before I ever came here, just so that in 2010 I could make you look stupider than you already look. Sure. Okay, PN, what did you do with the real Rappy?



Quote:

... since you won't evolve, grow or show the least bit of ability to enlighten yourself, you're essentially useless. So you might as well go ahead and die.



After you! After all, every single thing you posted right there applies far more to you than to any other member here. When people say that you are a rock, they don't mean it as a compliment; they mean you're as stupid as a fucking rock.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, March 19, 2010 12:29 AM

CITIZEN


Heh, Kwicko, I recognise that pattern from somewhere. It's just as funny from outside.

I thought he left?


Anyway:

I'm gathering Kucinich is a democrat who was against the US Healthcare reform bill, and now isn't?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 1:18 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I don't think the word "most" means what you think it means. You keep saying "most" when you really mean "some".



No, I mean MOST. All the polls on this back me up.

53%-57% AGAINST the Bill (ranges of several new polls incl. Gallop & Rasmussen)
35%-43% SUPPORT the Bill (ranges of several new polls incl. Gallop & Rasmussen)

So, above clearly shows MOST Americans against the bill....

Then there's polling that shows 61% of Americans want them to "start over".

Then there's polling that shows 75% of Americans with insurance now are satisfied with it and don't want any changes.


So where you and Rue come up with the idea that Americans support Obamacare is beyond me. But good for you both to keep sticking to your faith in Pelosi and Reid.



ps. I hate the Bill. I hate the corrupt process that has been used to keep it alive. I hate the idea of the Govt hiring 16,000 new IRS Agents to monitor and enforce the draconian mandate that everyone must buy health insurance. These agents will be just another un-wanted intrusion into our personal and business lives. The House Vote is akin to WWII's D-Day. It's a big deal, but it's far from the end of the war. Still gotta get thru the Senate reconcilliation process, and still have to pass the constitutional legality challenges that many states are poised to file. Also, if Repubs re-take Congress in November, they will be able to block its' funding, therefore killing it with or without Obama's blessing on a repeal measure. So I see the whole thing as a big waste of time. Nothing but an absurd continuation of a desperately flawed plan. Shit!...Pelosi is STILL cutting back-room deals even as the CBO and America is looking at the "preliminary" version of the damn thing. More kickbacks, more "exemptions" for votes. If the Bill was so good, how come everyone has to be bribed to vote for it? Obama at least is being honest......his new thing is telling un-decideds that his Presidency is riding on the Bill's passage. Now that alone is something I can relate to. I don't really want to see Obama embarrassed or weakened, but now the fight is not even so much about HC, it has turned into just another culture war of small versus big govt.


"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."

to which Nancy Pelosi would respond......."We're not telling them what to think, we're just showing them how."

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Friday, March 19, 2010 1:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


kwickie -

You know I NEVER said it " pissed me off" that Obama was black. So I never once back peddled. It's you who has reading comprehension issues. So you can stop w/ the mock indignation routine. No one's stupid enough to buy it.


All you're attempting to do is feign incredulity to cover for the fact that I obliterated your weak attempt to stir up some sort of point.

YOU CAN TYPE IN CAPS ALL YOU WANT, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU ANY MORE CREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


See? Just like you - pointless.


Quote:

I hate the Bill. I hate the corrupt process that has been used to keep it alive. I hate the idea of the Govt hiring 16,000 new IRS Agents to monitor and enforce the draconian mandate that everyone must buy health insurance. These agents will be just another un-wanted intrusion into our personal and business lives....


I couldn't agree more. And while I officially think that a woman's right to choose an abortion exists for the first trimester, I'm wholly against ANY $ being spent by the Federal Gov't on the procedure. Not a proper function of Gov't. Not by a long shot.



Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:10 AM

RIVERLOVE


Jongsstraw,
I read your posts and generally like them, but I don't understand why you waste your time trying to play nice with the Liberals here. Every Conservative that was ever here has been down that road before, and everyone has been attacked and cursed at by them in return. I admire your attempt at civility, but they will only continue their partisan ways despite anything you write. Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts about Fox News and Republicans. They deny or ignore the same or worse stuff within the Democrat Party. They obviously just cannot live in a world with Fox News around to explain their lies, and explain their many faults. They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology, and it's only a matter of time before you say something here that will have them all at your throat like wild dogs. But good luck though with your Mahatma Ghandi approach. It won't last too long.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Jongsie, where you have it wrong is when you make the leap from people having problems with this bill to assuming that they oppose healthcare reform of any kind.

Poll after poll after poll shows that MOST Americans want a public option included.

Quote:

Here’s a rundown, sent over by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, which commissioned the polls:

* In Nevada, only 34% support the Senate bill, while 56% support the public option.

* In Illinois, only 37% support the Senate bill, while 68% support the public option.

* In Washington State, only 38% support the Senate bill, while 65% support the public option.

* In Missouri, only 33% support the Senate bill, while 57% support the public option.

* In Virginia, only 36% support the Senate bill, while 61% support the public option.

* In Iowa, only 35% support the Senate bill, while 62% support the public option.

*In Minnesota, only 35% support the Senate bill, while 62% support the public option.

* In Colorado, only 32% support the Senate bill, while 58% support the public option.



So while I'll concede that THE SENATE BILL - which is NOT the final bill in its final form - has strong opposition, I question the reasons you assign to that opposition. You claim a majority don't want ANY changes, but polling clearly shows that that's wrong. Of course, you're fudging your numbers by only polling those WHO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE, which leaves out a sixth of our population. Funny how people who don't want anyone messing with a sixth of our economy don't have a problem at all with abandoning a sixth of our people. As usual for them, money is far more important than people.

Quote:

But good for you both to keep sticking to your faith in Pelosi and Reid.


Sorry, but that's just so much bullshit, and you know it. I've posted REPEATEDLY here and elsewhere that I'd love to see them both ousted, so where you come up with that as equating to my "faith" in them is beyond me, because I've never HAD any faith in those two.

That's exactly equivalent to me saying that you should keep sticking to your undying faith in Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al.

Quote:


"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."

to which Nancy Pelosi would respond......."We're not telling them what to think, we're just showing them how."



Your problem isn't with the meddling or the telling you how to think; it's with who's doing the meddling and telling. As long as you obey your corporate masters, you think they'll reward you. You're wrong, but by the time you figure that out, you'll likely be DEAD wrong.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Jongsstraw,
I read your posts and generally like them, but I don't understand why you waste your time trying to play nice with the Liberals here. Every Conservative that was ever here has been down that road before, and everyone has been attacked and cursed at by them in return. I admire your attempt at civility, but they will only continue their partisan ways despite anything you write. Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts about Fox News and Republicans. They deny or ignore the same or worse stuff within the Democrat Party. They obviously just cannot live in a world with Fox News around to explain their lies, and explain their their faults. They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology, and it's only a matter of time before you say something here that will have them all at your throat like wild dogs. But good luck though with your Mahatma Ghandi approach. It won't last too long.




Quote:

Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts...



Pot, meet Kettle.






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:25 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:


Your problem isn't with the meddling or the telling you how to think; it's with who's doing the meddling and telling. As long as you obey your corporate masters, you think they'll reward you. You're wrong, but by the time you figure that out, you'll likely be DEAD wrong.



No, YOU'RE wrong, Kwickie. The Leftist are the ones doing the meddling here. No where did the founders of this country intend that every citizen be COMPELLED, under the force of law, to purchase healthcare. That's what you don't get. That this Gov't take over of healthcare is fundamentally ANTI-American.

And far more folks die FROM Gov't care than die w/ out it. So spare us the petty threats of DYING while paying homage to big corporations.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:45 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:

Jongsstraw,
I read your posts and generally like them, but I don't understand why you waste your time trying to play nice with the Liberals here. Every Conservative that was ever here has been down that road before, and everyone has been attacked and cursed at by them in return. I admire your attempt at civility, but they will only continue their partisan ways despite anything you write. Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts about Fox News and Republicans. They deny or ignore the same or worse stuff within the Democrat Party. They obviously just cannot live in a world with Fox News around to explain their lies, and explain their many faults. They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology, and it's only a matter of time before you say something here that will have them all at your throat like wild dogs. But good luck though with your Mahatma Ghandi approach. It won't last too long.


You haven't been around here much RL so I will not go into a long explanation of why you are wrong. I'll just say that what you do here is a meaningless use of time, and I do not understand what you can possibly get out of being nasty and ideological 100% of the time. They're just FFF threads, they 'aint life or death dude, and attacking people will never ever never cause them to change or even re-consider their positions. If anything, people like you just harden them even more.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:52 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology,



Weren't you the one all giddy about how Palin's addition to the McCain ticket was going to be the end the Democratic Party? Thought you learned a lesson in that, about how choosing to live in the Faux delusion bubble can make you look a bit silly. Guess not.

Kwicko - see what happens when you engage the Rap? The petty back-and-forth of "Yes you did!" "No I didn't!" gets going in 2 posts or less. I don't know why you bother. He will never change, and you're only giving him what he wants.

Back on topic: I think this bill, while certainly flawed, has improved slightly in the past few weeks. The numbers on its finances are promising. $138 billion off the deficit in the next 10 years, then something in the trillions the next decade. Stuff like that is likely the reason Kucinich came around, as well as the fact that *something* has absolutely got to be done. This bill is at least not nothing.

Hell, I recall when DADT was a step forward, in that at least gay people could serve. It was an insane, pathetic policy, but at least a start, and now almost two decades later we see what was good about moving that direction. (Gay people have served admirably without starting mad homosexual orgies in the middle of combat zones - leave that for the priests and the consulting firms. ) We have also clearly seen the insanity of the DADT policy (People getting outed against their will and discharged, though they've done nothing wrong.) And so the insane parts of the bill are like to be repealed, and what could not have happened in 1993 - gay people serving openly - will happen.

Maybe the same will happen with health care, by which I mean the public option. Perhaps in a decade or two we'll get the enough of the faux-watching masses over their hysterical fears, and we'll finally move on to a decent health care system. Sucks that it'll take so long, but at least we're starting to move.

If nothing else, the discussion has been hella enlightening. Here's a poll number I'd like to see: how many Americans are more aware of the issues with our health care system, and the possible solutions, then they were a year ago? I certainly am.

Another thing I find interesting: both sides of this debate are all down with the insurance companies being the boogie men, but the Repubs say Obama is the puppet, while the Dems say the Faux news crowd is. While a simple perusal of money flow could clear up that debate, at least we're in agreement that the current corporate control of health care is a bad thing.

ETA: Jongsstraw - you give me hope. I have to admit, the conservatives who post here have made me build a caricature of Repubs in my mind - and not a complimentary one. Glad you're making me break that image down.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:09 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Jongsie, where you have it wrong is when you make the leap from people having problems with this bill to assuming that they oppose healthcare reform of any kind.


I've never made that assumption Kwicko. The poll #'s I posted are related to this Bill. Every person with reasonable intelligence wants Healthcare Reform, they just don't want this bad Bill.

Quote:

Poll after poll after poll shows that MOST Americans want a public option included.
There hasn't been any recent polling on the public option question because there hasn't been a public option element to the Bill in almost a year, and there still isn't one.

Quote:

So while I'll concede that THE SENATE BILL - which is NOT the final bill in its final form - has strong opposition, I question the reasons you assign to that opposition. You claim a majority don't want ANY changes, but polling clearly shows that that's wrong. Of course, you're fudging your numbers by only polling those WHO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE, which leaves out a sixth of our population. Funny how people who don't want anyone messing with a sixth of our economy don't have a problem at all with abandoning a sixth of our people.
No one is advocating abadoning anyone. The 1/6th who don't have insurance now, don't have it for a variety of reasons, including many who just don't want to buy it. Legitimate poor can get Medicaid now, or even social security for disability, etc. We need a better bill that addresses these issues, rather than a new bureaucratic nightmare consisting of 160 new agencies and 16,000 new IRS Healthcare Agents.

Quote:

I've posted REPEATEDLY here and elsewhere that I'd love to see them both ousted, so where you come up with that as equating to my "faith" in them is beyond me, because I've never HAD any faith in those two.
Fair enough, but you still want their bill passed. Why pass something from people you admittedly detest?

Quote:

Your problem isn't with the meddling or the telling you how to think; it's with who's doing the meddling and telling. As long as you obey your corporate masters, you think they'll reward you. You're wrong, but by the time you figure that out, you'll likely be DEAD wrong.
I am not anti-Corporate as you apparently are. I've been in the business world all my life. I have always had health insurance through my various companies I've worked for. These "corporate masters" haven't been anything but good for me and my family. I raised a family, sent the kids to college, got a few bucks in the bank, go on vacations, live well....so what's the problem again with Corporations?



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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:25 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Pot, meet Kettle.


Hi Kettle


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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:30 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You haven't been around here much RL so I will not go into a long explanation of why you are wrong. I'll just say that what you do here is a meaningless use of time


Ok Meghan McCain, enjoy your brief reign as useful idiot for the Left.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 3:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You haven't been around here much RL so I will not go into a long explanation of why you are wrong. I'll just say that what you do here is a meaningless use of time


Ok Meghan McCain, enjoy your brief reign as useful idiot for the Left.



Good one!





.....and, I'm out.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 19, 2010 4:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:


Your problem isn't with the meddling or the telling you how to think; it's with who's doing the meddling and telling. As long as you obey your corporate masters, you think they'll reward you. You're wrong, but by the time you figure that out, you'll likely be DEAD wrong.



No, YOU'RE wrong, Kwickie. The Leftist are the ones doing the meddling here. No where did the founders of this country intend that every citizen be COMPELLED, under the force of law, to purchase healthcare. That's what you don't get. That this Gov't take over of healthcare is fundamentally ANTI-American.



First off, WHICH "leftist" are you talking about? Which one? You keep on not learning how to pluralize words, I'll keep on pointing and laughing at your bone-headed stupidity, your utter unwillingness to learn, no matter how many times others attempt to teach you.

That alleged "government takeover" of healthcare is no such thing. Hell, we should be so lucky as to have the government take it over and wrest control from the for-profit insurance industry.

For someone who is allegedly such an expert on the Constitution, you really do like to cherry-pick what parts you believe in, don't you?

Quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


There is nothing more crucial to the "general welfare" than health. Without your health, you have absolutely nothing else. And without a healthier population, you have not secured "the Blessings of Liberty", either to yourselves or to your Posterity.

No, it doesn't require you to purchase health insurance; it requires the government to provide healthcare! It's right there in the Constitution.

It's also in the Declaration of Independence:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Sorry, but without your health, you're utterly unable to pursue your happiness, and you certainly are being deprived of your life.


Quote:


And far more folks die FROM Gov't care than die w/ out it. So spare us the petty threats of DYING while paying homage to big corporations.



I'll note for the record that, as usual, you'll provide ZERO cites of any factual basis to bolster that claim. But that's only because you HAVE no factual basis for such a claim. Hint: Just because Rush Limbaugh says it, doesn't make it true.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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