Defcon 1 this week, expect false-flag terror attack and/or first-strike war by piratenews

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:47 PM

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:50 PM

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:52 PM

Gold-pressed WMD... Yeah baby!

The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

But there was more than one opportunity to stop it - from addressing the actual problem (Kuwaiti slant-drilling) all the way down to the wire - the League vote.

There's enough blame to go around on this one.

I'll give you Bush-war part deux - trying to outdo daddy. That was completely a war of choice that WAS rammed through by the US. I just want to note that there were large-scale protests in the US that were ignored or minimized by US media, as were the int'l protests. Our media was giving us only part of the story - the 'nucular cloud' part.

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Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:55 PM

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:07 PM

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:10 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I just want to note that there were large-scale protets in the US that were ignored or minimized by US media, as were the int'l protests. Our media was giving us only part of the story - the 'nucular cloud' part.

Not to mention the "massive" protests Rappy claims there were against the Afghanistan war!

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I'll give you Bush-war part deux - trying to outdo daddy. That was completely a war of choice that WAS rammed through by the US.

So why can pulling a car over for 'suspicion' of wrongdoing due to ethnicity be thrown out of court, while starting a war due to 'suspicion' of WMD hold up?
My peeps, I give you the Golden Rule.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Evil - Lite

I would characterize this as "Restricted - Heavy."

Gino, do you think the Prez RUNS our country? He WORKS for others. Obama might WANT to change things, but he's treading a line between public service & private obligation.
If he goes too far in the wrong direction- Kennedy.
Savvy?

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:08 PM

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
maybe China can help

Blue Sun?

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:31 PM

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Who would you hold accountable, and how would your opinion make a shit's worth of difference?

If it came right down to it, a rifle in the book depository sounds about right...

Millions have died here, is it better just to do nothing ?

It looks like the war of terror is going to bring down your economy, soon your military will either be scaled back, or brought home to contain Americans...

Maybe another attack this year to accelerate this

I just hope you don't drag the rest of us down with you

OK, that doesn't answer the question. Doesn't even make sense! If you were an American out to change the system, you'd put a rifle in a library??? The would make a shit's worth of difference... how exactly?

Then "Millions have died here" - where? What are you talking about? Whatever it is, it seems to convince you to do nothing. Why bother, right? So much bad stuff has happened, what's the point. Is that your attitude?

Which leads back to my point: Gino you are exactly what you accuse us of being. You do nothing, just sit back and jaw at how others have screwed up, and anticipate the payback with glee because, well, it ain't your fault and the ruin won't touch you.

It is ironic, and maybe this feeds back into the Authoritarian/conservative mindset that's been discussed. Gino, you may not be an Authoritarian, (I think) but you certainly have that right-wing talent for accusing and even resenting others for behaviors that are actually yours, not theirs.

I am disappointed. Thought you were cooler than that.

... but you do earn some points back for the Cheney Cat...

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:33 AM

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Hell the Iraqi sanctions alone... which BTW all the partys on the security council wanted to lift in 1996, but were blocked by the US... were in a 1998 UN study thought to have directly contributed to the deaths of 750,000 under the age of 16...

Just imagine if the billions spent on war were spent on food, medicine, agricultural equipment, education & really good DVD's- all sent into Iraq under armed guard & distributed freely... the Iraqi peeps would have ousted Saddam their own selves. And it would have cost us less in the long run. Make friends, not enemies policy.
What a frakkin fantasy, eh?

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:26 AM

The Kennedy assassination reference was obviously not obvious, so thank you for clarifying. And so that's what you would do - assassinate someone? Who would you go after?

And please, Gino, stop with the avoidance. I'm not looking for further evidence that the US has done wrong, and many innocent people have died. I am quite aware of it. I am also aware that you, according to your worldview, think they deserved it, right? They had the audacity to be citizens of nations that did the US wrong, and since they didn't do the "rifle in the book repository" thing (that's just weird) to stop Bin Laden, they should be held accountable. Right Gino?

"Reasoning with you is just a bad idea"

Maybe because you're not very good with reason. Hey - it's a possibility you might consider.

"Trying to get Americans aware of what their government is up to, and get them to do SOMETHING to fix THEIR OWN house of cards a waste of time before somebody with some very justified anger blows your house down."

I don't know how you, who reads these threads, can possibly think that NO Americans are aware of the problems, and that none of us are trying to stop them. What the hell do you think pushed Obama into office, and Bush into the doghouse of Bad President shame?

Obviously you don't like our methods of change, so perhaps that's why you dismiss our actions? You think only certain, more extreme, actions would qualify as "doing SOMETHING"? OK, fair enough. So please - because I really, genuinely want to know - explain to me how your act of assassination would be productive. I don't see that the best course of events followed Kennedy's assassination. How would it be different if you were the one holding the rifle?

Or are there other actions you might take as an American citizen to stop the madness?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Interesting extention of logic - if the US did something to somebody it was the victims' fault b/c they (the victims) did nothing to stop it. In Gino world - it makes sense.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:59 AM

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Interesting extention of logic - if the US did something to somebody it was the victims' fault b/c they (the victims) did nothing to stop it. In Gino world - it makes sense.

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Silence is consent.

Not what I meant Rue. According to Gino, I deserve to die because I didn't stop Bush. So clearly those 13 Afghans in Chak-e-Wardak who were bombed by US forces while trying to have a spring picnic last weekend deserved it. They were just being held accountable for not dusting off their sniper rifles and taking care of Bin Laden before 9/11 happened.

Right Gino? So where does it end, if you hold a whole group of people accountable for the actions of a few? What kind of a world does it lead to?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The only solution is to attack the US until it comes apart... Sooner the better

obviously change from within will never happen

This conversation is leading to all kinds of interesting insights about you Gino.

Niki - are you catching this?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:56 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Not what I meant Rue."

OK. Still, it holds.

There are many interesting and contradictory outcomes from Gino's basic premise, depending on how wide you set the boundaries of responsibility.

Since some of the 9/11 attackers were Saudi, Saudia Arabia should expect to get turned into glass. B/c they are all responsible for the actions of few.

If the victims are responsible for their victimization b/c of being inadequately resistant then no one should be punished.

If everyone is responsible for the actions of a few then the entire world is responsible for everything that happens.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 10:57 AM

Yeah, I'm a bit disturbed by the notion that assassination is an acceptable remedy for those in your government with whom you disagree. And I'm a bit shocked to see Gino apparently advocating such behavior, because I never took him for much of a conservative. I mean, I *know* Sarah Palin supports this kind of action, but she's widely acknowledged as a batfuck whackadoodle.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The only solution is to attack the US until it comes apart... Sooner the better

obviously change from within will never happen
This conversation is leading to all kinds of interesting insights about you Gino.

Niki - are you catching this?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

Hmm. Glad I quoted Gino's post before he deleted the content. Wish I'd quoted the whole thing.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:52 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Maybe it was deleted by somebody else ... I wonder if that kind of posting could get this site shut down. B/c, you may notice, every single one of his posts is gone. In fact, I took a quick look, it's not limited to this thread either.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:02 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Just popped in and yeah, all Gino's posts are blank. Did he get so pissed off he deleted everything or something? I don't know what he said; I left yesterday, had to go look pre-car-shopping all day (YUCK!) and just got back here. What happened??

When I left I did so with sadness at discovering just how much he hates us, so only came back to see how the discussion was going...but I must have missed a helluvalot if he's deleted all his posts and taken off. Anyone wanna catch me up, pls?

This place has been so uncensored, Rue, that I can't imagine his posts having been taken down. I think only he and our Beloved Leader can do that, and I've never seen censorship here before. I gotta believe it was Gino himself; is it a matter of "I'm taking my ball and going home" or something? Weird.

I hope he hasn't run away forever. Although my feelings for him have changed dramatically from this thread's exchange, I don't like to lose ANY voices (well, except for a couple

). That's a shame, if that's what it is.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:41 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

He was ranting about how there should be revolution in the states, and if not maybe some country should take up the task of making us behave will a well-placed application of their military or assassins to our collective backside.

BTW, I don't think he could delete his posts in one effort like what was done. He would have to go back and one by one delete them all. As a database though, it could be done by an administrator.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:15 PM

No worries; he's still around. I think he may have gotten worked up a bit and taken a time-out from this thread.

Gino and I have our disagreements, but overall, we're still good.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I see his page is still here, which is good.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:21 PM

Yup, some of his hamster posts, too, which are ALWAYS top-drawer!

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Maybe it was deleted by somebody else ... I wonder if that kind of posting could get this site shut down. B/c, you may notice, every single one of his posts is gone. In fact, I took a quick look, it's not limited to this thread either.

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Silence is consent.

OK, that's really frightening. I sure hope he deleted those posts himself, and not some scary Big Brother. I hadn't noticed that it was all his posts.

FWIW, I don't think he seriously wants to do anything bad. He's venting anger we've all felt towards the big American machine. Maybe not aiming his ire well, but still, I have no animosity toward him, or fear of him.

You hear that, big eye in the sky?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:26 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Only thing I have left to say on this "government"....

Sic Semper Tyrannis

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
When I left I did so with sadness at discovering just how much he hates us, so only came back to see how the discussion was going...but I must have missed a helluvalot if he's deleted all his posts and taken off. Anyone wanna catch me up, pls?

Um... so I was trying to get his ideas as to what he would do as an American citizen to fix things. You know, since he thinks it's our responsibility to take action, I wanted his take as to what that action should be.

I started out hoping to get him to understand the helplessness of living here during this past decade. Then, when I got a better idea of what he was saying, I started trying to push the ramifications of his ideas. I ended up hitting a deep "hate for America" nerve.

It's interesting what comes out of people when you really examine their biases. Um... and to try to avoid sounding like a complete and total ass, I've had my own biases knocked for a loop now and then. It's not fun. And perhaps I should be sorry for pushing Gino so hard, but I'm not. I may not be able to change my govt, but I can go after blind hatred when I see it.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Lots of people hate America, and with good reason.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yah, everyone has biases, I mean, there's no one that *I* have ever met who's neutral on everything, but I think it's pretty important to recognize the ones you have - and at the very least challenge them once in a while.

At the very *least* any knee-jerk response of any kind at all should be pounced on and immediately interrogated before allowing it to express itself, and the past decade here in america has kinda resulted in a tremendous schism between the folks who can and will do that - and the folks who are unable or unwilling to do that.

And the latter concern me greatly, cause the powers that be have exploited and conditioned that response to where they'll jump in pavlovian response to ANYONE who pushes the right buttons, and while I have, and do, use and misuse this tendancy - I have great concerns about someone with far more nefarious intent doing so.

Question nothing more closely than that which you hold most dear.

-F

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:13 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"... the past decade here in america has kinda resulted in a tremendous schism between the folks who can and will do that (challenge their own knee-jerk reactions) - and the folks who are unable or unwilling to do that."

I still think to some extent it's been instilled in us through the owners' need for US to BELIEVE ... almost anything, to keep us from trusting our own senses.

Is the world a scary cold place ? God has the answers. Is the economy in a funk ? Hard work and faith in capitalism is the answer. Are ideas too confusing ? Trust in native simpletons with simple ideas.

It's the myth of the true-hearted good-souled ignoramus, best exemplified by Tarzan or The Ugly American, depending on how well your mirror works. The person who can say "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like" as if it was meaningful. And have other people hear it as significant as well.

We are taught to beatify ignorance, b/c the alternative is a savvy and wise population unwilling to play a rigged game.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rue: Yeah, I kinda thought that was where he was headed, which is why I backed out. You can't debate anything when it gets to that point.

But like I said, I've never seen Haken delete posts that way--has anyone else? Maybe Gino just got so head up he said "to hell with you all" and DID take the time to erase on his own. I don't know what to think, just that both things are sad.

That, I think, is part of what's bothering us, Mike. It's not just THIS thread, from what I hear. He's deleted the text of his posts in other threads too...that's kinda telling. If you are in touch, encourage him not to run away, 'kay? All voices are valid.

Mal, if it was some kind of administrative thing, I don't know why they'd delete them all. Maybe there were potentially inflammatory things in THIS thread that might have brought "us" to someone's attention, in which case thinking Big Brother might be valid...but every post, and in other threads, and did anyone check to see if it's in other FORUMS as well? Weird, anyway...

Quote:
I started out hoping to get him to understand the helplessness of living here

I don't think it's just the past decade, but yes, that's what I was hoping to...that he could see that people aren't evil because their government is, they may be frustrated and impotent. Once I hit that brick wall, it became a waste of effort.

And yes,

Quote:
It's interesting what comes out of people when you really examine their biases.

It was quite a shock for me; I may have disagreed with him from time to time, but in general I liked Gino. To have all that come flying at me out of the blue was real sad. I'm used to it from some people, but I wasn't prepared for it from him.

Certainly I have my own blind prejudices, but I agree, best to know where they are. I know I'm blind and don't think fast enough to be sensible when it comes to anyone hurting anyone/anything, I know I'm not able to see past what I consider the insanity of a Glenn Beck. I have to force a smile and fake politeness when speaking to sport hunters, etc., etc. But I don't think Gino considered his feelings a "problem" in any way, at least that's how he came across.

Of course they do, Sig, and we've talked about that at length. But do they hate American people they know personally? People whom they know to agree with a lot of what they think and feel, who want to see it changed as well? I've not met any who do, tho' I know there are those who can't see past their blind hatred of our government (in some cases DEFINITELY deserved!) and lump us in with it. I just didn't expect it to be anyone HERE, among people I feel strongly are (in most cases) reasonable and see things with open eyes.

I agree to an extent to your last one, Rue, but I think it's giving a certain amount of undeserved "eptitude" if you will, to TPTB. They change, so there's no one person in charge throughout time--certainly they know how to manipulate and exploit weakness and ignorance and they pass tat down, but I think they might possibly be just as vulnerable to it as anyone else. I don't see it as a conscious, deliberate conspiracy to control the people. Maybe I mean that MUCH of a skilled manipulation. I could be wrong, of course.

I think the concept of the ignorant good old boy is certainly used to appeal to people, and the distrust of the "educated elite"--we see it every day. But I don't feel it's quite the conspiracy you seem to be saying it is. And I think partly it's something Americans THEMSELVES have encouraged and aligned themselves with, so of course those wanting power would play on it.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Niki

It's not totally coordinated effort to control the people, but it is there - more like the force of a wind which doesn’t originate from one source but pushes in one direction all the same.

The first time I realized that the 'news' was not news was when I read about I. F. Stone back in the 1970's. His point was that reporters, by depending on contacts with 'official sources' for the news had compromised their integrity. They were beholden to the goodwill of those sources, and were simply repeating what is, in effect, propaganda, as if it was news without double-checking or even checking back into news history.

The first time I saw how controlled the media was (for example), was during the Angolan war. I heard about it every day from CBC radio, at length and in detail, for weeks. The US media had nothing. Now, this was a war where the US was heavily involved through extra-congressional means, something that WAS being reported on the CBC.

The next time was a few years later when a power glitch (I think between the US Niagara and Canadian grids) literally knocked all the radio stations off the air within a hundred miles, fried monitors in hospital CCUs, damaged institutional computers, and did untold damage across western New York State that I know of. You would think something so obvious to so many people would get at least a mention. There was literally nothing in the media about it. I looked and listened and watched very hard for any mention for weeks.

The next time it was very obvious to me was during the run-up to the first US-Iraq gulf war. I was going into work, and since we started very early compared to most people, I happened to hear the results IN NUMBERS of the Arab League vote to 'allow' the US in the area. It was so close a vote I took notice but forgot by the time I got to work. But when I went back to the media to get those numbers again they were not available anywhere. I read two or three major newspapers, scanned about 6 radio stations and watched all the major network TV newscasts - two or three times - and over the course of the next week. All they were reporting by then was 'a majority'.

Then a while later I read a book by a reporter (I wish I could remember either the title or the name) who had gone to a newscasters' dinner. The guest speaker there, a major media owner (again whose name I don't remember) told them that their job was NOT reporting the news. Their job was to deliver the largest audience possible to the advertisers, in as receptive a frame of mind as possible.

Anyway, since the advent of the internet it is far easier to fact-check. But the vast majority of Americans still get their news from AMERICAN network news.

The NEWS media is only one example of how thoroughly propagandized we are.

But I need to get going, so I'll stop here.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
But like I said, I've never seen Haken delete posts that way--has anyone else? Maybe Gino just got so head up he said "to hell with you all" and DID take the time to erase on his own. I don't know what to think, just that both things are sad.

Very much. Still, I'd rather that he decided to take his posts and go home, swear off RWED (Not like no one else has done THAT before. Just like everyone here LOL!) Deleting all of one's posts would be extreme, but he was getting pretty pissed. And possibly... maybe he just looked at what he saying and knew that just wasn't cool? Am I hoping for too much?

Anyway, it worries me because it takes a hella lot of work to find ALL one's posts through several threads. It does seem something systematic. But I went out right after I noticed that one missing post, so I don't know how instantaneous the whole erasure was.

Quote:
Mal, if it was some kind of administrative thing, I don't know why they'd delete them all. Maybe there were potentially inflammatory things in THIS thread that might have brought "us" to someone's attention, in which case thinking Big Brother might be valid...

Well, I have no doubt that Big Brother is out there, thanks to the nasty shit going on this week.

Quote:
I don't think it's just the past decade, but yes, that's what I was hoping to...that he could see that people aren't evil because their government is, they may be frustrated and impotent. Once I hit that brick wall, it became a waste of effort.

I'd had no idea it was in him. I was very surprised at what surfaced. I'd always thought Gino quite reasonable. Hope he's not gone for good.

Quote:
I don't see it as a conscious, deliberate conspiracy to control the people. Maybe I mean that MUCH of a skilled manipulation. I could be wrong, of course.

Well... I've heard things about plans laid down in the 50s about making ours into a consumer culture, make it all about buying stuff, new stuff every year, and not worrying about anything else. It's shocking how these plans have played out.

I don't think it's any little committee of evil masterminds, but I think it is a definite direction that was planned on and carried out, just because it's been so effective.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, it's like how crabs march in lockstep, it ain't that they're a hive mind, so much as they think the same way and thus the same inputs result in the same outputs.

Politicians are a lot like that, and Rue's analogy of a wind in one direction is a pretty good one too.

For mine own, I've lingered here and there throwing roadblocks in the path of this insanity, because the key to breaking it isn't from the top down, it is to stop producing the sociopaths who think this kinda crap is a good idea, to cut off the supply lines instead of facing them directly, because eventually they will die, and if you cut off both the source of new would be tyrants, AND the source of broken, emotionally stunted morons who are willing to take their orders - you win at a stroke, and they'll just dry up and blow away.

No epic confrontation necessary, just a lot of work, tears, and a jackass stubborn refusal to accept that this dystopia is the way things should be.

-F

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rue: Yes, I know about that sort of thing. I find out more from friends in Canada, England and other places about such things than I do from our media. No argument there. I have no doubt about American propaganda!

Nor is there any argument that "journalists" are now pretty much talking heads who never actually look into things.

But I feel more like Mal; tho' I don't think it was intended as such--or maybe more "begun"--I think our culture has evolved the way it has because society in general created a self-replicating mentality where consumerism is concerned...it's not unnatural for humans, look at how evolving countries do the same thing, and I don't see it as a global conspiracy.

As to Gino, as I said it was a major shock to me, as well. Probably because I've agreed with him so much about what's wrong, it wasn't until we got around to trying to say "you", when talking to those who agree with you and want to change things, is kinda unfair, that he took off and I realized the truth. As angry as he was last time I read his posts, I wouldn't be surprised if such strong feelings made someone take the time you mentioned. I don't believe in Big Brother having anything to do with it, I'd more believe they'd tag him and watch him, not erase his posts--and even if some outside force DID, I think we'd hear about it from Haken, wouldn't we?

I agree with Frem that people "think the same way and thus the same inputs result in the same outputs", where society is concerned.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 3:57 PM