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But it's more likely, given the "herd of cats" that is the Dems, that such an effort would have failed and our trip into the abyss of insurance hell would have continued.

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She is only one of several democrats who would NEVER have voted for the public option. The votes just weren't there.

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LONDON — After the Sunday service in Westminster Chapel, where worshippers were exhorted to wage "the culture war" in the World War II spirit of Sir Winston Churchill, cabbie James McLean delivered his verdict on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

"Evolution is a lie, and it's being taught in schools as fact, and it's leading our kids in the wrong direction," said McLean, chatting outside the chapel. "But now people like Ken Ham are tearing evolution to pieces." McLean is one of a growing number of evangelicals embracing that message — that the true history of the Earth is told in the Bible, not Darwin's The Origin of Species.

Europeans have long viewed the conflict between evolutionists and creationists as primarily an American phenomenon, but it has recently jumped the Atlantic Ocean with skirmishes in Italy, Germany, Poland and, notably, Britain, where Darwin was born and where he published his 1859 classic.

Darwin's defenders are fighting back. In October, the 47-nation Council of Europe, a human rights watchdog, condemned all attempts to bring creationism into Europe's schools. Bible-based theories and "religious dogma" threaten to undercut sound educational practices, it charged.

Schools are increasingly a focal point in this battle for hearts and minds. A British branch of Answers in Genesis has managed to introduce its creationist point of view into science classes at a number of state-supported schools in Britain, said Monty White, the group's chief executive.

"We do go into the schools about 10 to 20 times a year and we do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution," said White, who founded the British branch seven years ago. "And we leave them a box of books for the library."

Creationism is still a marginal issue here compared with its impact on cultural and political debate in the United States. But the budding fervor is part of a growing embrace of evangelical worship throughout much of Europe. Evangelicals say their ranks are swelling as attendance at traditional churches declines because of revulsion with the hedonism and materialism of modern society.

"People are looking for spirituality," White said in an interview at his office in Leicester, 90 miles north of London. "I think they are fed up with not finding true happiness. They find having a bigger car doesn't make them happy. They get drunk and the next morning they have a hangover. They take drugs but the drugs wear off. But what they find with Christianity is lasting."

Other British organizations have joined the crusade. A group called Truth in Science has sent thousands of unsolicited DVDs to every high school in Britain arguing that mankind is the result of "intelligent design," not Darwinian evolution.

In addition, the AH Trust, a charity, has announced plans to raise money for construction of a Christian theme park in northwest England with a 5,000-seat television studio that would be used for the production of Christian-oriented films. And several TV stations are devoted full-time to Christian themes.

All this activity has lifted spirits at the Westminster Chapel, a 165-year-old evangelical church that is not affiliated with nearby Westminster Abbey, where Darwin is buried.

In the chapel, Rev. Greg Haslam tells the 150 believers that they are in a conflict with secularism that can only be won if they heed Churchill's exhortation and never, ever give up.

"The first thing you have to do is realize we are in a war, and identify the enemy, and learn how to defeat the enemy," he said.

School curricula generally hold that Darwin's theory has been backed up by so many scientific discoveries that it can now be regarded as fact. But Mullins believes creationism also deserves a hearing in the classroom.

"Looking at the evidence, creationism at the least seems a theory worthy of examination," he said. "Personally I think it is true and I think the truth will win out eventually. It's a question of how long it takes."

Terry Sanderson, president of Britain's National Secular Society, a prominent group founded in 1866 to limit the influence of religious leaders, fears the groups advocating a literal interpretation of the Bible are making headway.

"Creationism is creeping into the schools," he said. "There is a constant pressure to get these ideas into the schools."

The trend goes beyond evangelical Christianity. Sanderson said the British government is taking over funding of about 100 Islamic schools even though they teach the Quranic version of creationism. He said the government fear imposing evolution theory on the curriculum lest it be branded as anti-Islamic.

The Council of Europe spoke up last fall after Harun Yahya, a prominent Muslim creationist in Turkey, tried to place his lavishly produced 600-page book, The Atlas of Creation, in public schools in France, Switzerland, Belgium and Spain.

"These trends are very dangerous," said Anne Brasseur, author of the Council of Europe report, in an interview.

Brasseur said recent skirmishes in Italy and Germany illustrate the creationists' tactics. She said Italian schools were ordered to stop teaching evolution when Silvio Berlusconi was prime minister, although the edict seems to have had little impact in practice. In Germany, she said, a state education minister briefly allowed creationism to be taught in biology class.

In some cases, the schools have become the battlegrounds. Richard Dawkins, the Oxford university biologist and author of last year's international best-seller The God Delusion, "frequently lectures students about the marvels of evolution only to find that the students' views have already been shaped by the creationist lobby.

"I think it's so sad that children should be fobbed off with these second-rate myths," he said.

"The theory of evolution is one of the most powerful pieces of scientific thinking ever produced and the evidence for it is overwhelming. I think creationism is pernicious because if you don't know much it sounds kind of plausible and it's easy to come into schools and subvert children."

The group operates a warehouse with $150,000 worth of DVDs, books and comics promoting creationism, but he says he only sends speakers and materials into schools that invite Answers in Genesis to make a presentation.

He says that when he is asked to speak to science classes, he challenges the accuracy of radioactive dating which shows the world to be thousands of millions of years old and says that the Bible is a more accurate description of how mankind began. He personally believes the Earth is between 6,000 and 12,000 years old.

"Usually I find the discussion goes on science, science, and science and then when the lesson is finished one or two students say, 'Can we talk about other things?' and I sit down with them and usually they want to talk about Christianity," he said.

Dawkins feels the effect. He said he is discouraged when he visits schools and gets questions from students who have obviously been influenced by material from Answers in Genesis. "I continually get the same rather stupid points straight from their pamphlets," he said.

White is getting ready for a visit by Ken Ham, who will preach at Westminster Chapel this spring. Meanwhile he is pleased that small groups of creation science advocates now meet regularly in Oxford, Edinburgh, Northampton and other British cities.

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I think it would have more chance than the previous bill, and would have had a fighting chance because you're leaving the private companies alone. Add a sweetener like money back for those on private, and played the right way it would have diluted the Limbaughesque (Limbaughesque: from Limbaugh, a giant gaseous turd) rantings to the American middle class.

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I didn't actually say you could have done better, I said this bill is crap. Assuming there's no way at all you could have done better, it doesn't change that the fact that you really need to. I'm not going to concede that a bad bill is good just because you couldn't have done any better.

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Kabul, 1842. One of the worst mistakes in British history - certainly the worst tactical and military error – was the invasion of Afghanistan in 1839. The British marched in with the newest high technology (cannon), extreme optimism, and almost no understanding of the country we were invading. A ruler we did not approve of was replaced with a puppet we liked much more and all the top brass predicted a walk-over.

Three years later, the Afghan tribes were united in their hatred of the imperialists, the British were besieged and outnumbered, and then attempted to retreat across the Khyber pass in bitter cold with no guarantee of safe passage, under constant attack from the Afghans. An estimated 16,000 people died in the retreat from Kabul of 1842; a lone survivor, Dr William Brydon, reached Jalalabad fort, bringing news of the worst disaster in British imperial history.

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The Establishment of the Church of England - its entanglement with secular power and influence. Over too long a historical period the political/royal supremacy of the established church has created:
a) a sense of smug righteousness, and a lack of self-questioning, in the ruling classes
b) a feeling that dissent, moral exploration and indeed private mysticism were somehow 'unreliable', foreign, subversive and disreputable.

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Edward III’s initiation of the Hundred Years’ War by making a patently bogus claim to the French throne. It was in the short term militarily disastrous, given the comparative strengths of the two sides, and economically catastrophic. But its most damaging aspect was in poisoning Anglo-French relations for centuries. At the beginning of the 14th century the English aristocracy was outward-looking and French-speaking. As the war progressed, England became marked by national and linguistic chauvinism. A great deal of the ugliest parts of our political culture – populism, xenophobia and hostility to Europe – dates from this terribly misguided venture.

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Henry VIII’s decision to break with Rome over the powers of the King. This plunged Britain into a divisive religious conflict whose effect is still being felt today.

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The partition of India and Pakistan, which had a huge death toll and set up divisions that still have an impact.

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Appeasing Hitler in his early years and allowing him to believe that he could get away with expanding his power.

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The military defeat of Gallipoli, and the failure of Cromwell to find a succeeding principle, his therefore being forced to pass the Protectorship on to his under-qualified son, as well as the dietary decisions of a number of monarchs (lampreys etc).

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Decolonization of India. We British are - because we've been taught this way - far too complacent with this idea that we handled decolonization so much better than everyone else. The truth is, the speed of British withdrawal indirectly cost something in the region of a million lives. I'm not suggesting that we should have held on to India for much longer because as well as being morally unacceptable, it was simply not feasible for the near bankrupt war-ravaged British nation.

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if you criticise America rightfully about something relevant to this thread, I'll go off on a tangent and drag up everything I can find that's bad about Britain in revenge

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nowhere else in the world are they taken seriously

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...has managed to introduce its creationist point of view into science classes at a number of state-supported schools in Britain ... We do go into the schools about 10 to 20 times a year and we do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution ... part of a growing embrace of evangelical worship throughout much of Europe ... Terry Sanderson, president of Britain's National Secular Society, a prominent group founded in 1866 to limit the influence of religious leaders, fears the groups advocating a literal interpretation of the Bible are making headway. "Creationism is creeping into the schools," he said. "There is a constant pressure to get these ideas into the schools." ... Italian schools were ordered to stop teaching evolution when Silvio Berlusconi was prime minister ... frequently lectures students about the marvels of evolution only to find that the students' views have already been shaped by the creationist lobby ... small groups of creation science advocates now meet regularly in Oxford, Edinburgh, Northampton and other British cities

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The number of people reporting either Young Earth creationism, or ID, at 25% is something like five times as large as the combined Muslim and evangelical population of this country? Twice as many people are confused about what they believe, and only another quarter are convinced of the truth of evolution.

The real problem for public understanding, as anyone knows who has done any science writing, are the millions of people whose position is that they don't know, don't care, and don't want to do either.

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Teach both evolution and creationism say 54% of Britons
British Council poll finds UK adults overtake Americans in wanting science teaching in schools to include intelligent design.

More than half of British adults think that intelligent design and creationism should be taught alongside evolution in school science lessons – a proportion higher than in the US. It was found that Britons were almost three times more likely than Egyptians to want creationism and intelligent design to be included in the teaching of evolution.

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British readers may be reading about Creationism and smugly thinking 'Only in America'. Well, don't be so sure. Emmanuel City Technical College in Gateshead, England, teaches evolution, but specific written advice for teachers suggests that whenever they encounter a suggestion that the Earth is millions or billions of years old, they should be careful to explain the alternative and, quote, 'always preferable' biblical version of events. In short, Creationist teaching is going on in science classes.

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Three in 10 science teachers believe creationism should be taught in science lessons, according to a new survey. And more than a third (37%) of primary and secondary teachers in general believe that the subject should be taught alongside evolution and the Big Bang theory.

The Ipsos Mori poll of more than 900 primary and secondary teachers in England and Wales found that while nearly half (47%) believe it should not be taught in science lessons, two thirds (65%) agree that creationism should be discussed in schools.

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A new public opinion poll reveals that belief in creationism is widespread throughout Britain.
The London Telegraph reports that more than half of the British public believes Charles Darwin's theory of evolution cannot fully explain life on earth.

According to the survey:

Fifty-one percent agree that evolution is not enough to explain the complex structures of living things and that a designer's hand would be needed at key stages.

Thirty-two percent say they believe God created the world in the past 10,000 years.

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If by this you mean other countries work...

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not allowed to say it's a crap bill (which it is) without coming up, single handedly and instantly here on an internet forum, a better idea

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Your statements would seem, on the face of it, to be completely irrelevant.

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I was getting at the idea that you'll probably tell me what I'm saying in a moment, rather than listening

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What is the argument going to be, since the private healthcare companies would have been completely left alone? "We don't think we can compete"?

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Except I can do exactly that, because that's exactly what this bill is

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Until you engage with that reality I'm not seeing why I should take your statements about reality at face value.

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I think you're not listening to any other side

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Anyway. No offence guys (ok lots of offence) but how is it, that you, in the states, can take a good idea, and without fail fuck it up beyond all recognition? Most of the world has been working with socialised healthcare systems very well for 50-60 years, you've finally got in on the act, and thought "socialism bad, corporatism better". Really, I'd agree with sarge here, this bill is an unholy abortion of an idea. It's managed to marry the very worst aspects of private medicine, the very worst aspects of socialised medicine, and none of the good sides of either. That's some achievement.

The only thing you guys who are for it can seem to say about it is that "it might lead to something good". That's like having the breaks cease up on you Toyota and when you plough into the lake saying "at least I might be able to get a decent car on insurance". I mean I admire you're ability to look on the bright side, but damn.

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it's not like we haven't got a point when we rag on you. What, we can't find it highly amusing that America can't organise it's way out of a paper bag unless we tell you how? Given the usual American superiority complex the rest of the world has to deal with, you've kind of got being laughed at on this issue coming...

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given that the US Mental Healthcare system is to find a nice cardboard box under a bridge, or execute them if it's Texas

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dismiss that by going off on a tangent and demanding I come up with the quick fix for all America's problems

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seeing that really obnoxious guy who's always telling me how great he is at everything, failing spectacularly to organise a piss up at a brewery

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What you did do, and what you sort of admit here, is say I'm not allowed to say it's a crap bill (which it is) without coming up, single handedly and instantly here on an internet forum, a better idea. And when I have a crack at it, rather than actually deal with what I said, I'm called crazy. Have you heard of some things called red herrings and ad hominems? Just asking.

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Your statements would seem, on the face of it, to be completely irrelevant.

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I was getting at the idea that you'll probably tell me what I'm saying in a moment, rather than listening

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that reality [public option] I'm not seeing why I should take your statements about reality at face value

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I keep going back to the same points you keep ignoring, yes. And I think you're not listening to any other side

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keep demanding that I come up with a better bill that can be implemented RIGHT NOW

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Is it something along the lines of "if you criticise America rightfully about something relevant to this thread, I'll go off on a tangent and drag up everything I can find that's bad about Britain in revenge"?

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just a shame you and nikki want to blame me for your personal comments.
But hey, it's obviously Gino and I that have the problem. Then it'll be me Gino and someone else. Then Me, Gino, someone else, and yet another person. Whatever, it's nikki gettin' her knickers in a twist and dragging completely unrelated stuff in for no reason. It's Nikki that's saying "I want to talk about this" and then doing anything but.

It's funny how it's you (that's the personal pronoun that time) and Nikki, that have actually gotten personal, while giving lectures on the subject.

Feel free to throw some more accusations and insults my way won't you, bubbye

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No, see, I have discussed the issue, while you've just got personally insulting, while claiming it's other people getting personally insulting. You claim you've seen more than light hearted ribbing, but that's entirely a fabrication of your own mind. I'm entirely calm and happy, seems it's you and Nikki getting nasty.

Which thread have you been reading, because it's really not this one? I've actually answered everything you've asked already, I'm sorry if you've missed my responses under the cloud of apoplectic rage that I dared to criticise America, but I'm not going to hold myself accountable for it.

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As far as I can see you and Nikki got pissy because I said bad things about the US. Nikki started dragging stuff about Henry the freaking 8th into a thread about American Healthcare, and I'm the one being accused of getting off topic? I was going for light hearted ribbing, it missed the mark, sorry. But I did try to point that out, and neither of you seems willing to drop it.

I mentioned Gino after nikki brought him up and accused me of being just like him, because I'm sitting here scratching my head as to what the hell your problem is. Maybe he's at fault for whatever this incident you're talking about is. Maybe he's scratching his head just like I am.

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you've read them, the personal attacks are not in my post, they're in your head.

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I note for the record you've still made no attempt to get us on to the subject you claim is the one you actually want discussed.

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just a shame you and nikki want to blame me for your personal comments....As far as I can see you and Nikki got pissy....I mentioned Gino after nikki brought him up and accused me of being just like him....you've just got personally insulting you've just got personally insulting....poplectic rage you ... and Nikki, that have actually gotten personal....

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I honestly, calmly, and without passion think there's not any point in continuing the discussion that Niki (and I, for a while) had going with Citizen. The point we were both trying to make was never going to get through. And apparently, whatever point he was trying to make was also lost in translation, cause all I got was: "nyah nyah your bill sucks!" (Cit, you really meant something other than that?)

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You said you wanted this to move to a discussion of how to move forward on this bill

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