Health Care Reform PASSED!!! Now what? by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Health Care Reform PASSED!!! Now what?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, March 27, 2010 15:07
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Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:52 AM

Hey Niki. I think a good round of well-deserved mocking is a fine thing now and then. Especially since nothing else was going much of anywhere.

But the good thing that came of it was that, after much poking and prodding, Kaneman finally posted a link to an interesting article. Though it didn't seem to back up the point he was trying to make.

So, to get back and on-topic, and since I know few people will actually go read the whole thing, (Kaneman apparently didn't) I'll give my own summary.

ETA the link so it's handy:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080407/lieberman

First, note that the article was date March 25, 2008, not 2009 as Kaneman said. So it is quite old information. It didn't mention Tennessee, but did discuss CA and MA. It may not surprise anyone that Kaneman was both incorrect and exaggerating in his statements about these: health care reform did not bankrupt CA, as it was never adopted there. The financial problems with the plan were clear and couldn't be resolved, so it was scrapped. As for MA, the health system is indeed having financial problems, but it's nothing near bankruptcy to the state:

"I wouldn't characterize the situation as dire," says Jon Kingsdale, chief executive of the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority, which administers the program. "The affordability issue has always been there."

The article states that the financial problems with the MA system (as of early 2008 - I don't know how it's doing now) are due to many more people signing up for the subsidized health care than was anticipated, as well as a whole lot of people still uninsured and needing free care. See - that second thing is what happens when folks take the gamble, go without insurance, then get hit by a bus. The rest of us have to pay for their medical bills, and with enough of these "free spirits" leeching off the system, it gets expensive. And yet, these same people will rail and rail against "welfare", about anyone being forced to pay someone's way. It's interesting mental gymnastics.

Anyway, the end of that sentence that Kaneman cut off was this: The state has collected only $6 million so far. One reason: before he left office, Romney changed the rules so fewer employers would be subject to penalties.

Go figure. A Republican changed the rules to benefit companies, even if that meant increased debt for the government and less services available for individuals.

The article goes on to discuss what coudl be learned from the problems with MA's health care system.

Any national program based on the troubled Massachusetts and derailed California plans will have to address another major, perhaps insurmountable, problem central to the market-based model, in which insurance companies run the show: how to cover everyone when insurers can turn away those who are sick and likely to file claims--a standard profit-making practice of insurance companies known by the Orwellian euphemism "risk selection."

The author warns that it will be hella hard to get the insurance lobbies to agree to drop risk selection. In fact:

According to one insider who insisted on anonymity because of his sensitive position in the industry, "They said privately they will spend whatever it takes" to defeat any law that limited the company's ability to select risk. "Blue Cross is the best at risk selection," he said. "They would take a big hit to their profits."

And here you see the reason for the fight they've put up - they've lost the power to deny health insurance to those who really need it. They have to pay out.

Of course, that does make it expensive. The only way to make it work is to get everyone to join, so they can share the cost as well as the rewards. Hence the mandate. It seems to me that the mandate leads to more profit than the drop of risk selection costs. That's why the HCR bill has the insurance companies paying billions in fees back into the system.

The last bit of this article I'll quote:

A state that Blue Cross no doubt had in mind is Massachusetts, where premiums are high not only because companies have priced them to account for claims made by sick people but also because medical care there is the costliest in the nation.

A big problem with any health insurance system, no doubt, is the insanely high cost of health care. Sadly, the HCR bill did not do much to address that, other than:

The provision requires the federal government to set up something called a “Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute.” ... What’s that? Simply put, comparative effectiveness research takes a particular health problem, then pits different ways of treating that problem against one another, in an attempt to find which, if any, is a more effective way to maintain or restore patient health.

It’s true that the point here is to save money as well ensure successful outcomes for patients. Supporters of comparative effectiveness research believe it’s a no-brainer way to figure out whether cheaper drugs, medical devices, or surgical techniques work just as well as fancy, expensive ones.

Prices for medical care stay low, patients and insurers pay less, so the cost curve of healthcare gets bent downward.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0326/Health-care-reform-bil
l-101-Will-it-make-health-care-more-effective

It sounds pretty weak to me. More definitely needs to be done to lower health care costs.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:03 AM

MAL4PREZ

And that, my whiny conservative friends, is an information based post. Think you could try it once in a while? Could be funner than you think.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:20 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
And that, my whiny conservative friends, is an information based post. Think you could try it once in a while? Could be funner than you think.

I can't believe how you could possibly rub anyone the wrong way.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:28 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
And that, my whiny conservative friends, is an information based post. Think you could try it once in a while? Could be funner than you think.

I can't believe how you could possibly rub anyone the wrong way.

That seems like what it comes down to on a lot of these "discussions." Things get pretty pointy pretty quick, insults fly and then the last thing someone wants to do - from either political view - is agree with the other side. Who wants to agree with the person they feel is insulting them? It's built in Fail.
I'd suggest a lot more patience, but that almost strikes me as funny.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I have nothing against a good poke, Mal, but when it devolves into poke-poke-poke-poke, why bother?

Good dissection of a cite apparently put up to back up a point (haven't read whole thread, just assuming that). That's one reason I always add cites, so people can read things in their entirety to be sure they DO back up the point they're trying to make.

Thank you for an on-point post. Wonder if it'll get discussed or degenerate once again?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 10:11 AM

MAL4PREZ

Pizmo: you are wise, but certain tools used up my patience long ago. There's no chance of them agreeing, or even progressing a conversation, anyhow.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I have nothing against a good poke, Mal, but when it devolves into poke-poke-poke-poke, why bother?

You can't let go of the roundabout with cit, I couldn't resist a last poke here.

And considering the nature of Riverlove, BDN, and Kaneman's posts - through this thread and many more before - "whiny" was a pretty mild poke.

I mean really, do you recall how many times any of these three actually posted *information* and analysis, rather than complaints, name-calling, accusations, and unsupported opinions? (Kaneman's article above only counts as half, since he needed lots of poking and couldn't give the link without calling me a douche. And, actually, the original point that "Pre-existing conditions are what bankrupted other programs like this in Mass and Calif. and Tenn" was Riverlove's, not his. He wasn't even backing up his own idea!)

Quote:
Good dissection of a cite apparently put up to back up a point (haven't read whole thread, just assuming that). That's one reason I always add cites, so people can read things in their entirety to be sure they DO back up the point they're trying to make.

And it's the only way to make progress in a debate - bring in information. It's the surest way to not have things degenerate: Base your statements on something other than "cause I said so!" Unfortunately, when it takes several pokes to get any kind of information posted, there's just no hope of rational discourse.

Quote:
Thank you for an on-point post. Wonder if it'll get discussed or degenerate once again?

Degenerate, for sure. But I've firmly decided that any post which isn't actually informative must be just another gust of wind to me. OK, I'm sure I won't stick with Plan Ignore Stage 2 forever. The madness really does invite some striking down now and then. But I'll try.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 10:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
It's like pulling strings on a marionette. Dance Kwicko, dance.

I thought Rappy was your dance partner. I pull your strings, you two dance. Every. Single. Time.

Go ahead; prove me wrong.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 10:59 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
You can't let go of the roundabout with cit, I couldn't resist a last poke here. And considering the nature of Riverlove, BDN, and Kaneman's posts - through this thread and many more before - "whiny" was a pretty mild poke.

Bingo. I'd add the go-round with Gino to that mix as well.

For all the talk of being above it all, I haven't really seen anyone here who's above getting into what seems to everyone else to be a pointless argument with SOMEBODY.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:10 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
For all the talk of being above it all, I haven't really seen anyone here who's above getting into what seems to everyone else to be a pointless argument with SOMEBODY.

Ain't that what the interweb is for?

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:11 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
For all the talk of being above it all, I haven't really seen anyone here who's above getting into what seems to everyone else to be a pointless argument with SOMEBODY.
Ain't that what the interweb is for?

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Seems like.

Meanwhile, I'm in the middle of repainting the house, so I'll most likely be a ghost for a few days.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:48 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
For all the talk of being above it all, I haven't really seen anyone here who's above getting into what seems to everyone else to be a pointless argument with SOMEBODY.
Ain't that what the interweb is for?

You and Kwicko get your best ideas undercut with "King of the Hill" arguing. Just saying.

I started out posting in RWED just over a year ago and from the start I was hoping to see the exchange of ideas and a building of a consensus on topics. I just figured that's what we'd do. Naive? Maybe, but if we can't then what chance do people (elected officials) under greater pressures have? So, rather than view us all as hypocrites... I'll hold out that we can still talk across the isle and get to collective understanding. You know, when we *take aim and shoot down* all the bad options and only the best ones remain. I give Jongs a lot of credit in making me think there's a chance.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 3:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Pizmo, there are some people that simply CAN NOT discuss their POV bc they cannot put their ideas on the table and dissect them dispassionately.

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