Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
So CTS, basically the government is like The One Ring: Great power, possibly even meant for good, but inevitably corrupted by the power behind the throne, which in this case is our corporatocracy.

Did I catch the essence?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Paraphrasing Milton Friedman, "If government exists, someone will buy it."

The bigger the government, the more the laws will reflect corporate interests rather than those of the people.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
America was founded by those seeking to escape the tyranny of oppressive government, and the larger the government the more oppressive it can be, no longer For the People and By the People.
The thoughts and creeds quoted by AURaptor are among those key to the reasons our Country was created.
Ask the same question of the victims of the Holocaust....oh, sorry, you can't - they are yet another example of the Silent Majority. Big Government in America became the next wave of Gun Owner Registration - the only previous example was Nazi Germany, 1937.
Rather than us bleed, many wiser mortals choose to learn from the mistakes of others, meaning learn your history. History is repleat with examples of governemtns which got too big. I'd rather just keep America, instead of letting it get too big and die.


One book which helps expose many of the freedoms we have already given up (before Obamahealthcare creating the first national ID system) is Dark Rivers of the Heart, by Dean R. Koontz.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
So CTS, basically the government is like The One Ring: Great power, possibly even meant for good, but inevitably corrupted by the power behind the throne, which in this case is our corporatocracy.

Did I catch the essence?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I'm not sure what happens in the US, but here in Australia where we have relatively big government, you can opt out of getting your child vaccinated, you can send them to a private school or educate them at home. Hell, you can pay for private medical treatment as well.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I'm not sure what happens in the US, but here in Australia where we have relatively big government, you can opt out of getting your child vaccinated, you can send them to a private school or educate them at home. Hell, you can pay for private medical treatment as well.

---

OY! Can I immigrate there?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
So CTS, basically the government is like The One Ring: Great power, possibly even meant for good, but inevitably corrupted by the power behind the throne, which in this case is our corporatocracy.

Did I catch the essence?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
The Auzzie idea of closing a bar is to drink all the beer then pull the nails out of the wallboards with their teeth. You guys are extreme. Americans are in awe.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
The Auzzie idea of closing a bar is to drink all the beer then pull the nails out of the wallboards with their teeth. You guys are extreme. Americans are in awe.

---

Yeah? I must have missed that one.

When I think of extreme, I think of some Yank ordering a coffee armed with his bazooka, just in case, you know.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

LMFAO, good salvo, Magons.

*glare*
Get OFF my side, Wulf - it's asshats like you and their goddamn attitude which set reasonable folk AGAINST the right to bear arms, by presenting those who exercise it as a bunch of ignorant and intolerant gits...

And for your information, you ignorant little shit, those "fags" have done more in the cause of protecting the second amendment than you EVER will.
http://www.pinkpistols.org/

Why is it every time I hear you shoot off your mouth, the firing pin of your tongue seems to be snapping on the empty chamber between your ears ?

Educate yourself boy, if you can't be bothered to READ a few books, than eat the goddamn things and hope for learning by osmosis!

-Frem

---

Quote:

---

" He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is **man’s** number. His number is 666. "

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
There seems to be an automatic assumption... and it really IS an assumption... that "big government" is BAAAAAAD. (Not that the assumption is wrong, but it IS an assumption.)

People FEAR big government deeply. So I want to ask you all: What is it about government (big OR small) that you fear and hate with such a passion?

Is it fear of loss of "freedom"? What freedoms do you think you will lose?

Could you please be specific?

I've had this conversation with several people already - SargeX, Frem, and a few others. Now would be a good time to hear from BDN, Kaneman, Wulf, Rappy, Geezer and others.

Feel free... the floor is yours.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


Educate yourself boy, if you can't be bothered to READ a few books, than eat the goddamn things and hope for learning by osmosis!

-Frem

---

Quote:

---

...its my belief that whether you believe your Creator is God, youre own mother, or Ghia...

---

Quote:

---

obviously this is like history 101...

---

Quote:

---

But, lately, we are just saying fuck it, and carrying openly. Let the fags shake while having their lattes.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:

My creator is an Italian design studio? That would make me AWESOME!

---

Quote:

---

... if you took History 101 in Biblevania, and it were utterly devoid of any of those pesky things like "facts".

---

Quote:

---

I am wary of social engineering. What entity can accomplish this more effectively than big government?

---

Quote:

---

I believe in the healthcare thread, Mal stated that she was okay with certain lost liberties because of the trade-offs. Why the need for the trade-offs? Can this stuff not be accomplished privately or through smaller entities (the states)?

---

Quote:

---

I was trying to draw a corollary between what was envisioned in the constitution as the role of the federal government to the present day role of the federal government. If so much has changed in slightly more than 200 years, what will change in the next 200 years? Every little bit of power we give the federal government adds up in the long run. Why is it so hard to envision some future government being even more obtrusive into our lives than present day. It may start off sounding like a good idea, but it is contingent upon us to see farther ahead than present day. I'm not against children receiving medical attention (nice scare tactic used by some here). I can just envision the scope of the healthcare bill changing over time. "Encourage" people to get healthcare today can lead to "Encourage" people to live a healthy lifestyle tomorrow.

---

Quote:

---

Plus, the bigger the government, the more time and money wasting bureaucracy that comes with it.

---

Quote:

---

Simple. In my case I feel I was born free.

---

Quote:

---

Governmental rules can only chip away at that freedom. Centralized Gov. kills freedom with Soooo many regulations and do nots that it gets crazy. Humans need rules. I am not for anarchy. I just feel local and state laws are better, because they are easier to fix when it is a bad idea. It seems to me that the further away from the home that the law or regulation comes from the more oppressive it becomes(because of the body and location it comes from) I can't change Washington, but I sure as hell can change school a board decision etc..(well, it was easier before the federal department of education)..
Really, who wants to be controled? That is what government is there to do. Do you believe for one moment our society would collapse with a small federal gov. and stronger States?

---

Quote:

---

I also think the most important power our federal gov. was given was to protect our civil liberties not take them. I believe the founders had it right and we are letting it get away.

---

Quote:

---

And the bottom line is the Federal Government has gotten so large that we can not afford it as a nation. Without a doubt, it is putting a burden on our children that we will be ashamed of when we are older. Not only will they have to pay for all our entitlements they will still have to pay for thiers, because these programs never get repealed. Lets not even talk about unfunded mandates to the states..Really, talk about insane...

---

Quote:

---

The bottom line is freedom. Government is anti-liberty by defenition. Governments create more government. When do you think the congress will ever go to work and say "things are fine. we are going to keep the same budget, same laws, etc..this year its all okay, lets sit right here for awhile". Never. Thier jobs depend on them making thousands and thousands of pages of new laws and regs. every year. A great fear early in this republic was that one day the people would realize they could vote themselves entitlements on the dime of another. I think whenever a big government passes an entitlement, what they are doing is stealing from one man to give to another,

---

Quote:

---

wether it's the feds paying student loan interest, subsidizing farmers, or health insurance.. it is paid for by taking one mans money and giving it to another...that is just plain wrong.look at his last line..something like.."Encourage health insurance today...encourage healthy lifestyle tomorrow". I can see it now; "smokers are killing the nations health insurance budget"...Next step...abuse the small unsympathetic smoking minority in the guise of protecting the majority.... ban smoking. When it should be.. protect the minority from the majority. Always remember, that in some area of our lives we are all minorities. Gov. has always used that against us. Split us by our differences for control.
And right now its not the govs business to worry about who smokes, or drinks, eats eggs, fatty foods, etc....but when they are writing the bills beware. And the goal of social engineering will always change depending on who is in power. If washington don't have the control over an industry, education system, domestic program, it wouldn't matter who is in control to me here in ct. It wouldn't matter that a bunch of liberals from california have power in washington, Or a bunch of texas conservatives. I would know that my way of life in CT. stays what it is... CT life. If I want to live like they want to in San Fran. I 'd move to San fran..... We are a huge nation..huge. What might be wanted in one state may not be wanted in another...it gives us choice. And we should celebrate that not destroy it.

---

Quote:

---

Are you mental? He meant the producer over the oaf..but you know that. He was a man of extreme understanding of liberty...so you use the words "those who are willing to work" to mean.. worker and not the person who does the most the OWNER....Have you ever owned a business? the owners job is the hardest.....

---

Quote:

---

i wouldnt say i 'fear' government, per se- i just have a healthy awareness of my 'natural rights' as a sovereign being on this earth. its my belief that whether you believe your Creator is God, youre own mother, or Ghia, you are a sovereign entity on this planet- no one(but your Creator)has authority over you. now obviously we live in collectivist societies that presume the child is property of the state. but in my utopic view, in the Garden, prior to the fall, we existed in equilibrium with the Creation. but since we ate of the knowledge, rejecting Gods law, weve begun this experiment in Mans law. if Man were 'sinless' and infallable, we would be governed internally by Gods commandments and we would not need 'government'. however, since we are imperfect beings, we make certain concessions to provide collective authority to enforce this 'contract'. consequently, sinful man becomes Creator of Law. obviously this is like history 101, but slavery and oppression are present from day one of civilized human history, its been a constant part of the human condition. in this view, the antithesis of my ideal sovereign liberty would be a collectist society. just giving you my opinion, but personally believe this worship of Mans law culminates in a system called ' the beast' of Revelations...

---

Quote:

---

America was founded by those seeking to escape the tyranny of oppressive government, and the larger the government the more oppressive it can be, no longer For the People and By the People. The thoughts and creeds quoted by AUraptor are among those key to the reasons our Country was created. Rather than us bleed, many wiser mortals choose to learn from the mistakes of others, meaning learn your history. History is repleat with examples of governemtns which got too big. I'd rather just keep America, instead of letting it get too big and die. One book which helps expose many of the freedoms we have already given up (before Obamahealthcare creating the first national ID system) is Dark Rivers of the Heart, by Dean R. Koontz.

---

Quote:

---

To the Gov't, hell yeah. It's not their money. We EARN money, it's not 'distributed' to us by our dear and fluffy Gov't.

---

Quote:

---

Money, land, anything we acquire in life represents a portion of our LIVES. It comes down to a simple question. Who owns you ? Do you own your life, or does it belong to the State ?

---

Quote:

---

Paraphrasing Milton Friedman, "If government exists, someone will buy it." The bigger the government, the more the laws will reflect corporate interests rather than those of the people. If the people clamor for regulation, the corporation-bought govt will issue regulation that reigns in smaller competitors, allows loopholes for themselves, and institute new groundwork for immunity from accountability (such as the idea of a corporation being a "person"). The people accept it because they feel some regulation is better than none at all.

If people sink in financial distress in a recession, the corporation-bought govt will bailout the very industries that caused the recession, with a few crumbs falling for the people. The people accept it because some crumbs are better than none at all.

If people cry for health care, the corporation-bought govt will force people to give 10% of their income to the very corporations that caused the unaffordability of health care, with promises of being enslaved to such corporations for the foreseeable future. The people accept it because it is at least a more comfortable slavery than they have right now.

My fear of big government stems from my cynicism that those with legislative power will act on the interests of the people rather than in their own self-interest, and have the intelligence to identify and distinguish between the two.

The freedoms I lose are not theoretical. I feel the loss tangibly everyday.

1. I lose a big chunk of the money I make. Most of that chunk goes towards funding things I don't agree with and sometimes, even morally abhor. MY money is going to Israel to oppress fellow human beings. MY money is going to a war that I feel is reprehensible and a betrayal of our soldiers' sacrifice. I am forced, by big govt, to pay for these and other objectionable projects. The only way I see out of this is not to redirect big govt spending (which will be an endless fight amongst ourselves), but to agree with fellow citizens to not have big govt spending at all.

2. My right to read scientific and medical literature and think for myself is being eroded. I'm losing the right to dissent from popularly accepted propaganda and choose different ways to solve problems than the ones endorsed by government. Laws on schooling and vaccination, for example, increasingly restrict my choices on how to raise my children. Laws on medicine restrict my choices on home births and alternative medicine. If I should have a child with cancer, I am very likely going to be forced to use chemotherapy, even if I interpret chemotherapy literature differently than those who make money off of it. We don't have any CO2 restriction laws yet, but that is coming down the pike. I am losing my rights to dissent.

I would like to send my unvaccinated child to a private school, but I can't. I would like to have a wider choice of homebirth midwives, but there is only one or two in my state because they are being sued or prosecuted so much. So see, big govt limits my life in a very tangible way.

(As an aside, I don't really understand people who distrust corporations with the very fiber of their beings, yet trust the medical/hospital/insurance health care conglomerate with every breath they take. Somehow, the health care industry is exempt from the greed and corruption of other industries. Very curious.)

It might be ok with most others to erode the right to dissent now. But one day, you'll find yourself facing a propaganda restricting your choices from which you'll dissent, but it'll be too late to claim your right to disagree with the govt.

---